Double Metaphor? (Satan / Dragon)

[Beck]

I've been studying Revelation 12:2 where John sees a Red Dragon with seven heads with crowns and a tail. To which John relates to his readers that the image is of the Devil, Satan.

When I look at the Dragon with seven heads I see John employing a metaphor for the seven worldly kings / kingdoms that dominate over the children of Israel. What I also see is that John relates the dragon to Satan. If I understand this right then John would be employing a 'double metaphor'. One for the Dragon as the seven kings / kingdoms and another for Satan as the sinful flesh of men.

These two are interwoven together that is why Satan is described as the dragon with seven heads and John describes the Beast of the sea (humanity) having seven heads. The seven gentile nations that dominate over Israel is given their power by sinful flesh of men.

But however you tend to interpert those passages, what I really want to hear from you is if my 'double metaphor' is possible and a good way to interpert?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I've been studying Revelation 12:2 where John sees a Red Dragon with seven heads with crowns and a tail. To which John relates to his readers that the image is of the Devil, Satan.

When I look at the Dragon with seven heads I see John employing a metaphor for the seven worldly kings / kingdoms that dominate over the children of Israel. What I also see is that John relates the dragon to Satan. If I understand this right then John would be employing a 'double metaphor'. One for the Dragon as the seven kings / kingdoms and another for Satan as the sinful flesh of men.

These two are interwoven together that is why Satan is described as the dragon with seven heads and John describes the Beast of the sea (humanity) having seven heads. The seven gentile nations that dominate over Israel is given their power by sinful flesh of men.

But however you tend to interpert those passages, what I really want to hear from you is if my 'double metaphor' is possible and a good way to interpert?

I have no problem with the idea of a double metaphor - it sounds like a very rich form of communication.

But where do you get the idea that Satan is a metaphor for the "sinful flesh of men"?

[Beck]

I have no problem with the idea of a double metaphor - it sounds like a very rich form of communication.

But where do you get the idea that Satan is a metaphor for the "sinful flesh of men"?

I would hope you agree that satan is a metaphor and how I would relate the meaning is to that of sinful flesh of men aka to carnal mindness. Just as in Judaism satan is not a sentient being, but a metaphor for the evil inclination – the yetzer hara. Those that walk after the flesh are of satan. It was flesh' that tempted Jesus in the wilderness which in the poetic writings of Matthew labeled flesh as satan. So in that sence the Spirit wars against the flesh the word "flesh" is used as a metaphor to describe sinful tendencies.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I would hope you agree that satan is a metaphor and how I would relate the meaning is to that of sinful flesh of men aka to carnal mindness. Just as in Judaism satan is not a sentient being, but a metaphor for the evil inclination – the yetzer hara. Those that walk after the flesh are of satan. It was flesh' that tempted Jesus in the wilderness which in the poetic writings of Matthew labeled flesh as satan. So in that sence the Spirit wars against the flesh the word "flesh" is used as a metaphor to describe sinful tendencies.

I understand your points, but I'm not sure they really fit with the Bible.

For example, how would you interpret this?

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

[Beck]

I understand your points, but I'm not sure they really fit with the Bible.

For example, how would you interpret this?

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

I believe Matthew is using the height of heaven as to Satan being casted down as a star to the ground as metaphors of how those saints were able to cast out the evil spirits and relating them to having power over serpents and scorpions (Pharisees and Sadducees). Therefore those were seen as being cast down from their high seat and make low. In the real sence the saints were given the word of God that trumps over those evil words by the Pharisees and Sadducees casting them down from thier high mindiness. The saints closed the mouths of lions in another metaphorical way. Satan as flesh of men was casted down and make low.

[David M]

I believe Matthew is using the height of heaven as to Satan being casted down as a star to the ground as metaphors of how those saints were able to cast out the evil spirits and relating them to having power over serpents and scorpions (Pharisees and Sadducees). Therefore those were seen as being cast down from their high seat and make low. In the real sence the saints were given the word of God that trumps over those evil words by the Pharisees and Sadducees casting them down from thier high mindiness. The saints closed the mouths of lions in another metaphorical way. Satan as flesh of men was casted down and make low.

Hello Beck
I agree with your reasoning. The Book of Revelation uses a lot of figurative language, whether it is metaphor or symbolism or similar. We should not take figurative language as literal. You understanding of Satan has come from properly discerning the figurative language used and hence you discernment of the quote put forward by Richard.


Satan, can mean adversary or accuser, it has been used to describe many situations. Anything that is at enmity with God is Satan. Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God It is all the result of our carnal mind that we sin against God. It is our nature. It is this nature that Jesus defeated and overcame and explains how he overcame the "devil in the flesh". That is why we are told to have the mind of Christ, who proved it possible to overcome the thoughts of the mind which lead us to sin.

Jesus overcame his own will by recalling scripture and complying with God's will and not giving in to his selfish thoughts. Jesus resisted the devil that were the evil thoughts in his mind.This is figurative language used to easily describe the thought processes with lead us to act on our thought processes and so lead to sin.
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceivedit bringeth forth sin: There are many external influences acting on our mind, not everyone is enticed to every influence,but when they are influenced, we are responsible for our own lust.

John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Jesus kept himself from doing the lust of the flesh and that is why he could say; (John 8:23) I am not of this world.
Hence, thinking in the way of the world is earthly and thinking spiritually can be thought of as heavenly. This makes sense when God says (Isaish55:9);For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Using figurative language, this is why we should set our thoughts on heavenly matters and not earthly matters. We should set our hearts on the kingdom to come which will come from God (in heaven) and doing what is pleasing to God and not let the pleasures of the world which is enmity with God corrupt our minds. It is a tall order but Jesus proved that with the proper guidance of his Heavenly Father it was possible.

Misunderstanding the use of figurative language has given rise to so much misunderstanding and false teaching concerning Satan, the Devil, fallen Angels. and the nature of Jesus.

Thank you for raising the subject.


David

[Bob May]

I've been studying Revelation 12:2 where John sees a Red Dragon with seven heads with crowns and a tail. To which John relates to his readers that the image is of the Devil, Satan.

When I look at the Dragon with seven heads I see John employing a metaphor for the seven worldly kings / kingdoms that dominate over the children of Israel. What I also see is that John relates the dragon to Satan. If I understand this right then John would be employing a 'double metaphor'. One for the Dragon as the seven kings / kingdoms and another for Satan as the sinful flesh of men.

These two are interwoven together that is why Satan is described as the dragon with seven heads and John describes the Beast of the sea (humanity) having seven heads. The seven gentile nations that dominate over Israel is given their power by sinful flesh of men.

But however you tend to interpert those passages, what I really want to hear from you is if my 'double metaphor' is possible and a good way to interpert?

Hi Beck,
I was just thinking of starting a thread from a similar perspective.
I believe the use of allegory in scripture is used in many ways and some that we don't readily see.

I have been reading a book called "What is Self" by Bernadette Roberts. In it she says that the death of Ego is the beginning of the Journey. And the death of Self is the goal. This would fit with Jesus' saying follow me. He had no Ego and yet at the end of his ministry he was crucified.

A few things that Bernadette points out is that only way we can know when these things happen to us, is after the fact by the realization that something is missing. Only in hindsight can we recognise the change within us.
This is a pattern that I have noticed myself. The bible is a roadmap that reveals where we have been. It cannot reveal where we we are going except as hints. Because until we experience something internally it is not a reality to us.

This is the value of allegory. It is the patterns that fit, our experience that we should be looking at.

If we are to follow Jesus as shown by his life here on earth, then much of what is demonstrated in scripture has to be "double metaphor", as you term it.
Jesus came to show us the way and yet his coming was foretold in the Old Testament.

Here is another example that hit me this morning when I woke up. Joseph was a precursor or shadow of Jesus to come. He is born and recieves the sign of sonship/inheritance (coat), goes into obscurity in Egypt and grows, and eventually saves the world.
So pretty much everyone sees him as a "shadow"/"type" of Christ. Allegory.

But within the story of Joseph there are dreamers and dreams. Joseph himself and the Pharoah and the Baker and chief butler to the Pharoah.
Dreams are allegorical/symbolic in nature. That is how they work.

So we have dreams within dreams, basically. Allegories within allegories. Like the wheels within wheels of the Bible Wheel.
But again, I see the theme of not knowing what has happened until it has happened.
Both the Baker and the wine bearer had the similar dreams,.. and Joseph's/God's words of interpretation were the same to both men.

Ge 40:13 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thine head, and restore thee unto thy place: and thou shalt deliver Pharaoh's cup into his hand, after the former manner when thou wast his butler.

Ge 40:16 When the chief baker saw that the interpretation was good, he said unto Joseph, I also was in my dream, and, behold, I had three white baskets on my head:

Ge 40:19 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.

Ge 40:20 And it came to pass the third day, which was Pharaoh's birthday, that he made a feast unto all his servants: and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and of the chief baker among his servants.

So the butler and baker recieved the same news, but the outcome was very different for each of them.

But if we apply the outcomes to ourselves we may find that the baker fared better than the butler.
The butler went back to serving the Pharoah. (A symbol of the Ruler of this world.)

The baker was hung on a tree and had his head lifted up. (cut off) Is that not what we are told to do?
Let Christ become our head and take up our cross and follow him?

To die to ourselves does not seem like a good thing from the perspective of ourselves. But we are assured that it is a good thing. So would we choose to make those changes in ourselves by ourselves? Probably not.
Maybe that is one of the reasons for allegory. We can only understand in hindsight the changes that are being performed in us. If we knew beforehand we might be reluctant to give up all we knew because it is all we know.

Lu 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Lu 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

So, to learn from (become a disciple of) Jesus we must hate the way we view the world. It is partial; and he wants us to come to a fuller understanding of a very different life. One that a person cannot understand until it begins to happen to them.
Something in us must die in order for this to happen.
It is a gradual change and we don't do it ourselves.

Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

Bob

[Beck]

Hi Beck,
I was just thinking of starting a thread from a similar perspective.
I believe the use of allegory in scripture is used in many ways and some that we don't readily see.

I have been reading a book called "What is Self" by Bernadette Roberts. In it she says that the death of Ego is the beginning of the Journey. And the death of Self is the goal. This would fit with Jesus' saying follow me. He had no Ego and yet at the end of his ministry he was crucified.

Very interesting, In how the bible have conveyed it's meaning in metaphors and allegories and even to the point of using double metaphors.

Also consider the use of Idioms. In scripture the use of relating that a city was considered a woman and that same city was a daughter. Thus the terms "sons," "daughters," "children," "harlot," as well as other descriptive terms like "seed," "adulterers," and "liars" are used collectively without regard to specific gender in relationship to that city.

So I can see the use of double metaphors in that kind of description of a city (woman, daugther, son, etc)

[heb13-13]

Hi All,

What do you make of this?

Heb. 2:14 - "the one having the power of death, that is, the devil"
How does our flesh have the power of death?

Jn. 12:31 - "the ruler of this world shall be cast out"
How do you cast out the flesh? I thought you denied it for it is always with you.

So according to you all, the flesh is also "the god of this world, Serpent, Dragon, devil, Satan, Beelzebub, Prince of the Power of the Air, Evil One, Apollyon, Destroyer, etc, etc.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Why is the Spirit of God being contrasted with the spirit of the world? The Spirit of God is a supernatural, spiritual being/personality. Is He being contrasted with a supernatural, spiritual being/personality?

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Even, Christians have to continue to fight their flesh, but they are supposed to have been delivered from this spirit.

1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Here is a third instance of the spirit of truth (which is the Spirit of God) being contrasted with a spirit.

Seems to me quite evident that Satan is a spirit-being.

And he is a personal being not an impersonal force or the flesh.

He speaks - Lk. 4:3, knows - Rev. 12:12, works - Eph. 2:2, disputes - Jude 9, desires - Jn. 8:44, requests - Lk. 22:31, schemes - II Cor. 2:11, has conceit - I Tim. 3:6, wills - II Tim. 2:2, has wrath - Rev. 12:12, and deceives - Rev. 20:2.

When the Bible wants to talk about the flesh, it speaks plainly about it and there is no confusion. Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit.

More later...

All the best,
Rick

[Charisma]

I've been studying Revelation 12:2 where John sees a Red Dragon with seven heads with crowns and a tail. To which John relates to his readers that the image is of the Devil, Satan.

When I look at the Dragon with seven heads I see John employing a metaphor for the seven worldly kings / kingdoms that dominate over the children of Israel. What I also see is that John relates the dragon to Satan. If I understand this right then John would be employing a 'double metaphor'. One for the Dragon as the seven kings / kingdoms and another for Satan as the sinful flesh of men.

These two are interwoven together that is why Satan is described as the dragon with seven heads and John describes the Beast of the sea (humanity) having seven heads. The seven gentile nations that dominate over Israel is given their power by sinful flesh of men.

But however you tend to interpert those passages, what I really want to hear from you is if my 'double metaphor' is possible and a good way to interpert?

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


Hi Beck,

I don't see the double metaphor at all. These things are real (not metaphorical), although the language is condensed in what I am coming to understand as an Hebraic way - meaning: the terms are much more than symbols. They are truths.

Regarding 'sinful flesh', Richard asks a valid question.

Mankind, in taking his eyes off God, and looking down (at created things) instead of up towards the Creator whom he should worship in spirit and truth, lays himself open to God's chastenings, sometimes brought about by 'spiritual' pressures, designed by God to make man call out to God, afresh, with repentance (turning back to Him). How often did this happen to Israel? (I haven't counted, but perhaps someone has.)

God is in charge of everything, even the power given to Satan / Devil / Dragon, which He limits according to His purposes. Contrary to popular opinion, Satan is not equal to God by any measure.

John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.