Equality

[Rose]

Ever since the dawn of civilizations, women have been treated unequally in male dominated societies, whereas in goddess cultures partnership is the standard. My guess is part of the reason is due to the fact that many men feel inferior because they can’t bear children, so to make up for their deficit men have suppressed women. Women constitute half of the human population and bear the other half, so the power to change cultures is available to women, but it must start in the home. If every mother taught her children to view male and females as equals, within one generation there would be a tremendous change!


The time is long overdue when the women of the world need to rise up as one voice demanding equality as humans. The same rights that are afforded men because they are members of the human race should equally be afforded women…no exceptions! Every woman has the power to speak out, even if it is only with one small voice teaching her children. One by one as women join together, an army of voices will be heard that cannot be silenced, for far to long men have played the role of the bully and used fear to oppress women and strip from them basic human rights…now is the time for change! Any religion or belief system that does not recognize human rights equally among both genders needs to be looked at long and hard…no 'God' who supposedly created women with the ability to bear children, would in turn cause her to suffer at the hands of men because she is the child bearer. It’s time for the hand that rocks the cradle to teach her children that all humans have equal rights.

Rose

[David M]

Hello Rose

We are dealing with equality here and nothing to do with the fact that God created Adam (male) before Eve (female) or that God has operated in fulfilling His purpose through the male line. Debz (link here) elsewhere has shown to you (and anyone reading HER brilliant explanation using the Bible) that there is no inequality between the man and woman who were designed to operate as a single unit through the association of marriage which is designed for the reproduction. There is no inequality between men and women with God; both have equal rights and opportunity to have eternal life in God's kingdom to come. Physical differences between men and women in the sight of God is not inequality. I think man has taken advantage of his greater strength to dominate women but this is not in accordance with God's will. Therefore what you are saying is correct and we are living in male dominated societies.

You bring a number of points into the discussion which will inevitably lead us down side trails. Everything you are saying regarding man's rule which is of man's making is correct; we live in a male dominated society which is not exclusively the case world-wide as was pointed out in another thread. There are tribes living today where women dominate the tribe. Goddess cultures are man-derived; you cannot blame God for these idolatrous practices which are an abomination to God. You are blaming God for what is a man-made problem.

You bring in the case of suffering. Women suffer at the hands of men but this suffering you cannot lay the blame on God. You can blame God for punishing Eve for her disobedience, but do you have the right? What righteousness do any of us have by which to accuse God of unrighteous behaviour in punishing Eve? The punishment to Eve (besides death) was that she should suffer pain in child-birth; this is woman's inheritance for which the blame rests with Eve.

The culture between men and women ought to be as it was first set out and to which Jesus refers us back to the beginning to the time of Adam and Eve and the marriage between one woman and one man. Antyhing else is a product of man. Men having more than one wife became an accpeted practice. God tolerated the kings of Israel to have more than one wife and we can see the consequences. We should not blame God for tolerating anything, otherwise we would all be dead and not having this discussion. Any time a king of Israel had sex with another woman they became his wife, though the king's love might have always been to his first wife; his first wife had pre-eminance over his other wives. This practice was not as God would have wanted it. God allowed somethings to take place as was the case of divorce when the people were descrinbed as "stiffnecked" and wanted divorce. Reluctantly, Moses had to write bill of divorcements. This is why Jesus takes us back to how it was at the beginning with Adam and Eve who were married for life (one man and one woman).

We should take into account where God tolerates the action of men and women; it is men and women who are really to blame. The consequences that follow are of men's and women's making. This has meant that God has had to deal with the problems caused and ensure His purpose is fulfilled despite what men and women have done. In all of the problems of life we are dealing with, when you go back to the source of the problem, you will find it is of men's and women's making and not God's making. Men might be more to blame than women for going astray from God, and now we are back with your argument. Men are to blame for the male doninated societies in which we live and men are to blame for the inequality of women in theses societies; the blame does not rest with God.

Talk about the submissiveness of women to tolerate such things, I know you are not one of them. Why did women accept belonging to hareems to have sex to a potentate? Was it not that they regarded themselves as privileged women? Blame the culture in which they belonged. You can argue that men dominated women and would have them put to death for their disobedience, this ought to make us put things into proper perspective considering our personal disobedience to God. Male dominated societies which are of men's making are nothing to do God; it is not how it was set up to be, so blame man instead.

God laid down the principles by which men and women should live. It is both men and women who are breaking God's laws and bringing the problems on themselves. By all means talk about male dominated societies but leave God out of the argument; the problems are not of God's making. Instead, we should be very thankful that despite all that men and women have done to break God's law, God is working to save men and women who believe in him and try to live lives in obedience to God's will; knowing the ultimate gift is eternal life and will be received when God has finally fulfilled His purpose and restored the earth to that which it was like before the fall of Adam and Eve. The inhabitants of the kingdom will enjoy the time as it would have been, had Adam and Eve not sinned. Therefore, just as Adam and Eve sinned in the first place, it is with man and woman you have to lay the blame for the evil that the inequality between men and women is.

Let's hope we can get some new contributers adding to this thread.

All the best,

David

[Rose]

Hello Rose

We are dealing with equality here and nothing to do with the fact that God created Adam (male) before Eve (female) or that God has operated in fulfilling His purpose through the male line. Debz (link here) elsewhere has shown to you (and anyone reading HER brilliant explanation using the Bible) that there is no inequality between the man and woman who were designed to operate as a single unit through the association of marriage which is designed for the reproduction. There is no inequality between men and women with God; both have equal rights and opportunity to have eternal life in God's kingdom to come. Physical differences between men and women in the sight of God is not inequality. I think man has taken advantage of his greater strength to dominate women but this is not in accordance with God's will. Therefore what you are saying is correct and we are living in male dominated societies.

Good morning David Glad you jumped over to this thread.

Yes, we are speaking of equality here and not about the myth of Adam and Eve which is what Debz spoke of in her post and I answered.

Men have definitely taken advantage of their strength to dominate women in most cultures, which is why the Bible is such a good example of a book being authored by men, reflecting the male perspective and male-bias of Bronze Age societies and mapping them on to the god they created.

You bring a number of points into the discussion which will inevitably lead us down side trails. Everything you are saying regarding man's rule which is of man's making is correct; we live in a male dominated society which is not exclusively the case world-wide as was pointed out in another thread. There are tribes living today where women dominate the tribe. Goddess cultures are man-derived; you cannot blame God for these idolatrous practices which are an abomination to God. You are blaming God for what is a man-made problem.

No, what I am really doing is showing you that the whole idea of God is a man-made problem. Men constructed a male warrior god in their own minds, who was extremely jealous of other make-believe gods and thought that men were superior to women. The book that reflects these ideas was authored solely by men and gives us detailed accounts of all the man-made problems they encountered.

You bring in the case of suffering. Women suffer at the hands of men but this suffering you cannot lay the blame on God. You can blame God for punishing Eve for her disobedience, but do you have the right? What righteousness do any of us have by which to accuse God of unrighteous behaviour in punishing Eve? The punishment to Eve (besides death) was that she should suffer pain in child-birth; this is woman's inheritance for which the blame rests with Eve.

Once again, I am not laying the blame on God, but rather on the men who made-up this god. Men made-up the story of Adam and Eve so they could blame the woman and dominate her. As I pointed out in goddess societies, even though the women ruled they didn't dominated the men, rather it was a partnership society. This again shows that in male dominated cultures like portrayed in the Bible, men suppress women and deny them the same human rights that they themselves enjoy.

The culture between men and women ought to be as it was first set out and to which Jesus refers us back to the beginning to the time of Adam and Eve and the marriage between one woman and one man. Antyhing else is a product of man. Men having more than one wife became an accpeted practice. God tolerated the kings of Israel to have more than one wife and we can see the consequences. We should not blame God for tolerating anything, otherwise we would all be dead and not having this discussion. Any time a king of Israel had sex with another woman they became his wife, though the king's love might have always been to his first wife; his first wife had pre-eminance over his other wives. This practice was not as God would have wanted it. God allowed somethings to take place as was the case of divorce when the people were descrinbed as "stiffnecked" and wanted divorce. Reluctantly, Moses had to write bill of divorcements. This is why Jesus takes us back to how it was at the beginning with Adam and Eve who were married for life (one man and one woman).

We should take into account where God tolerates the action of men and women; it is men and women who are really to blame. The consequences that follow are of men's and women's making. This has meant that God has had to deal with the problems caused and ensure His purpose is fulfilled despite what men and women have done. In all of the problems of life we are dealing with, when you go back to the source of the problem, you will find it is of men's and women's making and not God's making. Men might be more to blame than women for going astray from God, and now we are back with your argument. Men are to blame for the male doninated societies in which we live and men are to blame for the inequality of women in theses societies; the blame does not rest with God.

Absolutely! It is men and women who are to blame, because God was merely made up by them...that's my whole point.

Talk about the submissiveness of women to tolerate such things, I know you are not one of them. Why did women accept belonging to hareems to have sex to a potentate? Was it not that they regarded themselves as privileged women? Blame the culture in which they belonged. You can argue that men dominated women and would have them put to death for their disobedience, this ought to make us put things into proper perspective considering our personal disobedience to God. Male dominated societies which are of men's making are nothing to do God; it is not how it was set up to be, so blame man instead.

God laid down the principles by which men and women should live. It is both men and women who are breaking God's laws and bringing the problems on themselves. By all means talk about male dominated societies but leave God out of the argument; the problems are not of God's making. Instead, we should be very thankful that despite all that men and women have done to break God's law, God is working to save men and women who believe in him and try to live lives in obedience to God's will; knowing the ultimate gift is eternal life and will be received when God has finally fulfilled His purpose and restored the earth to that which it was like before the fall of Adam and Eve. The inhabitants of the kingdom will enjoy the time as it would have been, had Adam and Eve not sinned. Therefore, just as Adam and Eve sinned in the first place, it is with man and woman you have to lay the blame for the evil that the inequality between men and women is.

Let's hope we can get some new contributers adding to this thread.

All the best,

David

The principles laid down in the Bible are of mans making, just the same as the male dominated societies are of mans making. That is why both the Bible and the majority of cultures are male-biased and male dominated. Women have allowed this domination for a variety of reasons, the biggest one being because they bear the children. The only way women have ever gained rights is by joining together as one voice and forcing men to comply. Sad to say people rarely give up power willingly...look at the issue of slavery; this country had to fight a bloody civil war to free human beings from slavery.

I also hope we get some new contributors, but I think most people are very reluctant to touch these explosive issues.

Thanks for your input,

Rose

[David M]

Good morning David Glad you jumped over to this thread.

Yes, we are speaking of equality here and not about the myth of Adam and Eve

No, what I am really doing is showing you that the whole idea of God is a man-made problem.

OK Rose, we just have to disagree on this.

Once again, I am not laying the blame on God,.

In a way Rose this is brilliant. All you have to do is re-examine the Bible so as to put the blame on man (where it belongs) and not on God who is only doing what he said He would do and is having to work around the man-made problems knowing how man will react to whatever He does.


Apart from who is the author of the Ancient Scriptures, we are agreed that the problem of equality is caused by men.

I will communicate again with you in another thread.


All the best

David

[Rose]

OK Rose, we just have to disagree on this.



In a way Rose this is brilliant. All you have to do is re-examine the Bible so as to put the blame on man (where it belongs) and not on God who is only doing what he said He would do and is having to work around the man-made problems knowing how man will react to whatever He does.


Apart from who is the author of the Ancient Scriptures, we are agreed that the problem of equality is caused by men.

I will communicate again with you in another thread.


All the best

David

Yes, the problem of equality, or the lack thereof is caused by men, and that is preciously why the only logical conclusion I could come to - given the fact that the Bible is filled with inequality of human rights for women - is that it is a male authored book.

Take care,
Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

In a way Rose this is brilliant. All you have to do is re-examine the Bible so as to put the blame on man (where it belongs) and not on God who is only doing what he said He would do and is having to work around the man-made problems knowing how man will react to whatever He does.


Apart from who is the author of the Ancient Scriptures, we are agreed that the problem of equality is caused by men.

And so you agree with her conclusion that the Bible is authored by biased males and not God?

[David M]

Hello Richard

And so you agree with her conclusion that the Bible is authored by biased males and not God?

No!

I am objecting to the word "biased", not to the fact that the Bible appears to be male orientated. God is not treating women unfairly or more favorably as a the word bias suggests. It is man that is treating women unfairly.

God is not biased, God inspired men to write His word, therefore the authors were not biased because they simply wrote what they were inspired to write. They were not given licence to change that which had been inspired.

If God has revealed man's treatment of women to be unequal, God is pointing out the failing of man.

Elsewhere you agreed the blame rests on mens' shoulders and I agree with that.


David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Richard



No!

I am objecting to the word "biased", not to the fact that the Bible appears to be male orientated. God is not treating women unfairly or more favorably as a the word bias suggests. It is man that is treating women unfairly.

God is not biased, God inspired men to write His word, therefore the authors were not biased because they simply wrote what they were inspired to write. They were not given licence to change that which had been inspired.

If God has revealed man's treatment of women to be unequal, God is pointing out the failing of man.

Elsewhere you agreed the blame rests on mens' shoulders and I agree with that.


David

Your comment hits the heart of the matter. You said:

"God is not biased, God inspired men to write His word, therefore the authors were not biased because they simply wrote what they were inspired to write."

Excellent. This is the basis of my syllogism:

Minor Premise: God is not biased.
Major Premise: God inspired the Bible.
Conclusion: The Bible is not biased.

Now we can look at reality, and behold! The Bible is biased.

Therefore, one of the premises is false. Either God is biased, or God did not inspire the Bible.

Your solution, of course, is to deny that the Bible is biased. But I don't see how that is possible, since the Bible is plainly biased in many ways against women in favor of men.

So this is the one and only point we need to discuss. IS THE BIBLE BIASED AGAINST WOMEN IN FAVOR OF MEN?

Please don't confuse the issue with biases in the Bible that were not established by God. The only question is whether the Bible teaches a bias against women.

Here are the obvious points:

1) Woman is blamed for the fall (in both the Old and New Testaments).
2) Women must be subject to men. (Man is the head of the woman.)
3) Women must not teach.
4) Women must be silent in church.
5) Women are "saved" through childbirth.
6) The period of uncleanness for a female child is twice that of a male child.
7) Women were owned by men (the penalty for rape depended on her marital status. The father of a virgin was PAID MONEY whereas the rapist was killed if he raped a married woman (owned by a man).
8) Women can't divorce men, but men can divorce women.
9) etc.

[CWH]

Your comment hits the heart of the matter. You said:

"God is not biased, God inspired men to write His word, therefore the authors were not biased because they simply wrote what they were inspired to write."

Excellent. This is the basis of my syllogism:

Minor Premise: God is not biased.
Major Premise: God inspired the Bible.
Conclusion: The Bible is not biased.

Now we can look at reality, and behold! The Bible is biased.

Therefore, one of the premises is false. Either God is biased, or God did not inspire the Bible.

Your solution, of course, is to deny that the Bible is biased. But I don't see how that is possible, since the Bible is plainly biased in many ways against women in favor of men.

So this is the one and only point we need to discuss. IS THE BIBLE BIASED AGAINST WOMEN IN FAVOR OF MEN?

Please don't confuse the issue with biases in the Bible that were not established by God. The only question is whether the Bible teaches a bias against women.

Here are the obvious points:

1) Woman is blamed for the fall (in both the Old and New Testaments).
2) Women must be subject to men. (Man is the head of the woman.)
3) Women must not teach.
4) Women must be silent in church.
5) Women are "saved" through childbirth.
6) The period of uncleanness for a female child is twice that of a male child.
7) Women were owned by men (the penalty for rape depended on her marital status. The father of a virgin was PAID MONEY whereas the rapist was killed if he raped a married woman (owned by a man).
8) Women can't divorce men, but men can divorce women.
9) etc.

Using your logic that the Bible is biased against women, I would like to suggest using a different logic f which there are 4 possibilities i.e. 1. if the Bible is biased against women 2. if the Bible is biased against men and 3. if the Bible is biased against men and women and 4. if the Bible is not biased against men and women.

Let's itemized your logic as A, the rest B, C, D accordingly:

A: Using your logic if the Bible is biased against women:
1) Woman is blamed for the fall (in both the Old and New Testaments). Absurd
2) Women must be subject to men. (Man is the head of the woman.)Absurd
3) Women must not teach. Absurd
4) Women must be silent in church. Absurd
5) Women are "saved" through childbirth. Absurd
6) The period of uncleanness for a female child is twice that of a male child.Absurd
7) Women were owned by men (the penalty for rape depended on her marital status. The father of a virgin was PAID MONEY whereas the rapist was killed if he raped a married woman (owned by a man). Absurd
8) Women can't divorce men, but men can divorce women. Absurd
9) etc


B: Using your logic in which the Bible is biased against men:
1) Man is blamed for the fall (in both the Old and New Testaments). Absurd
2) Man must be subject to women. (Woman is the head of the man.) Absurd
3) Men must not teach. Absurd
4) Men must be silent in church. Absurd
5) Men are "saved" through childbirth. Absurd
6) The period of uncleanness for a male child is twice that of a female child.Absurd
7) Men were owned by women (the penalty for rape depended on his marital status. The mother of a virgin man was PAID MONEY whereas the female rapist was killed if she raped a married man (owned by a woman). Absurd
8) Men can't divorce women, but women can divorce men.Absurd
9) etc.


C. Based on your logic that the Bible is biased against men or women, it will read:
1) Both Man and Woman is blamed for the fall (in both the Old and New Testaments). Sounds OK.
2) Both Men and Women must be subject to men i.e other people of both sexes. (Man is the head of the woman and woman is also the head of man.) Absurd
3) Both Men and Women must not teach. Absurd
4) Both Men and Women must be silent in church. Absurd
5) Both Men and Women are "saved" through childbirth.Sounds OK.
6) The period of uncleanness for a female child is twice that of a male child, same with the male child. Absurd
7) Both men and Women were owned by other people (the penalty for rape depended on marital status. The father or mother of a virgin man or woman was PAID MONEY whereas the rapist was killed if he or she raped a married man or woman (owned by a man or a woman). Absurd
8) Women can't divorce men, neither can men divorce women. Sounds OK unless infidelity.
9) etc.

D. Now based on your logic, if the Bible is not biased against men and women, it will read:
1) Man and Woman is not blamed for the fall (in both the Old and New Testaments). Absurd
2) Women must not be subject to men and neither Men subject to women. (Neither Man is the head of the woman or the woman head of man.)Sounds OK.
3) Both Men and Women must teach. Sounds OK.
4) Both Men and Women must not be silent in church. Sounds OK.
5) Both Men and Women are not "saved" through childbirth. Sounds OK.
6) The period of uncleanness for a female child is not twice that of a male child neither is the male uncleanliness twice of women Sounds OK.
7) Women were not owned by men or men owned by women (No penalty for rape is depended on the marital status. The father or mother of a virgin was not PAID MONEY whereas the rapist was not killed if he/she raped a married woman or woman ( not owned by a man or woman). Absurd
8) Women can divorce men and men can divorce women.Sounds OK (if based on infidelity).
9) etc.

I know you will call these absurd but what I am trying to see is which of all these make the most sense if we look in other directions. Now which do you think make better sense? Sounds more like item D is the best in which the Bible is not biased against men or women. This tends to show that your logic of the Bible biased against women (Item A) is false, item B in which the Bible is biased against men is also false, Item C in which the Bible is biased against men and women seems largely false and Item D in which the Bible is not biased against men or women seems largely correct.


God Blessed us all.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I know you will call these absurd but what I am trying to see is which of all these make the most sense if we look in other directions. Now which do you think make better sense? Sounds more like item D is the best in which the Bible is not biased against men or women. This tends to show that your logic of the Bible biased against women (Item A) is false, item B in which the Bible is biased against men is also false, Item C in which the Bible is biased against men and women seems largely false and Item D in which the Bible is not biased against men or women seems largely correct.

You are right, you post is totally absurd. It makes no sense at all. I can't even begin to guess what you think you are talking about.

For example, you merely labeled every point as "absurd" under your point "A." What is that supposed to mean? Every one of my points would make sense if the Bible were biased against women.