Doomsday prophet vows to quit predicting the Rapture

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I like what Montgomery said:


The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O. T. criticism. The difficulties that beset any "rationalistic" treatment of the figures are great enough, but the critics on this side of the fence do not agree among themselves; but the trackless wilderness of assumptions and theories and efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology. ... "

John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217



Human nature is not one of patience, -- in spite of the angelic guidance in Daniel 12:4 & 12:9, which states an end-time (i.e., ~1948) unsealing.

BibleScribe

That was the quote I had in mind.

The more you write, the more you sound like Harold Camping. He repeatedly claimed that "we" (meaning himself, really) could now know the exact day of the Rapture because the books mentionioned in Daniel 12 had now been "unsealed." But he claimed the unsealing happened in 1988 (the supposed end of the supposed church age).

The whole date setting thing is for fools. Every attempt has been proven 100% wrong. 100% of the time. Just look at Harold Camping. He was given over a hundred million dollars by deluded Christians who believed that we were living in the "end times" and his prediction came to be known all over the planet. He claimed the Bible guarrenteed the date. Just like so many before him. And here you are, one little guy on an internet forum, and you think you've deceiphered the secret of the ages? I don't think so ... sorry.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Jesus is promised to return to the earth in the same way as he ascended into heaven. His disciples asked him when the kingdom would be restored to Israel and Jesus did not know. How can others claim Jesus be God when Jesus did not know? I have to find a reason for this; the same as many other difficulties of understanding the Bible and the confusion my man's faulty reasoning. When reading some of the texts, This Generation does mean the the generation in which the message was given. This Generation can also mean to the generation in which the signs of the times would start to take place. This Generation can therefore be speaking of a future generation. I believe for this reason that 'the signs of the times' are upon us (and for many other reasons that are evident in the world which are not mentioned by Jesus).

Hey there David,

Glad you joined in.

Concerting "this generation." In every example in the NT, you will find that "this generation" refers to the generation that was listening to Chrsit speak. It cannot mean a future generation, since that would be "that generation" not "this generation." Greek has a "this" and a "that" just like in English.

And the meaning of "this generation" is confirmed by history. Christ predicted the destruction of the Temple to happen during that generation, and behold, that's exactly what happened. Therefore, there are many mutually confirming and incontrovertable witnesses that say the same thing. There is no question about the meaning.

We have to remember all the prophecies of God that have not been fulfilled and are waiting to be. God through the Nation of Israel declared that they would be His witnesses and I look to see what is taking place to Israel. That is why I am looking to the three possible overturnings of Jerusalem until he (Jesus) comes whose right it is to take up the throne of David in Jerusalem.

Christ has already ascended to the throne of David, as it is written:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Scripture defines the meaning of the prophecy! It says that it was speaking of "the resurrection of Christ." Why do you say it speaks of Christ sitting on a literal stone throne on a dusty piece of Middle Eastern real estate?

It is no wonder there is such confusion about eschatology when things stated with such clarity are rejected in favor of fantasies that have no foundation whatsoever in Scripture.

God said He would scatter Israel throughout all the nations and He would not forget them nor make a full end of them. Despite times when the Jews have been persecuted to the extent of nations wanting to completely exterminate them (as Iran would like to see happen now), the Jews have been preserved. We might have other reasons why the Jews have survived when all other great nations have collapsed and disappeard. I just regard the survival of the Jews as a miracle of God. God said that He would regather them and they would become a nation again. This event was watched for long before it happened and in 1948 the Nation of Israel was re-established. This was before I was born but close enough for me to believe the time we are living in are the last days before Israel will come under siege again and when there will be no way out for them. That is when they will look to God for deliverance. This will culminate with the return of Jesus and who will become known to Israel as their Messiah and they will realize that this is the same Jesus as they crucified 2,000 years ago.

Where does the Bible say that they would be gathered together again after the dispersion of 70 AD? It does not! All the prophecies of "gathering Israel" were given when Israel was in Babylon or before. There is no prediction of a return in 1948. All the prophecies concerning Israel were marked with a specific time. I explained this in a thread called Continuity of Prophetic History confirms Preterism. The basic idea is that all the major events in the history of Israel - 400 years of bondage in Egypt, 40 years in the wilderness, 70 years in Babylon, and 490 years to Christ - were all predicted with numerical precision. No similar predictions were given for the dispersion of Israel that happened in 70 AD, and there are no promises of any return. Here is what I wrote:

There is a continuity of prophetic history from Genesis to Revelation. The primary events in the history of Israel were predicted with numerical precision. I just fell upon this idea yesterday. Here are my first thoughts:

In Genesis God predicted the 400 years affliction in Egypt:

Genesis 15:13-14 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

This was fulfilled in Exodus:

Exodus 12:40-41 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.

In Numbers God predicted the 40 years of the wandering, and the reason for it, and that He would fulfill His promise to their children but destroy the faithless adults:

Numbers 14:30-35 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. 31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised. 32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness. 34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. 35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.

Jeremiah predicted the 70 years captivity in Babylon:

Jeremiah 25:11-12 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Jeremiah 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

Note that in all three cases God declared both the duration of the captivity as well as the promise of good things that would come when the captivity was completed.

Daniel predicted the 490 years unto the coming of Christ and the destruction of the Temple:

Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Christ confirmed the prophesies of Daniel and even quoted him by name in the Olivet Discourse. Both the prophecies of Daniel and Christ were completely fulfilled in the events of the first century, as predicted. The words of Christ are TRUE!

Luke 21:20-23 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people [of this generation].

The preterist view of Revelation confirms the fulfillment of those prophecies in the destruction of Jerusalem, the "great harlot" that chose servitude to Rome over servitude to their God YHWH in the day of His visitation.

Thus we have a continuous prophetic history from Genesis to Revelation with numerically specific predictions and their fulfillment as confirmed by Scripture and History.

The Bible contains no prophecies of a future plan for carnal Israel, let alone numerically precise prophecies coupled with explicit promises of what God was going to do when the predicted time span was completed.

This seems to be an extremely powerful confirmation of the doctrine that all the prophecies of the Old Testament were fulfilled in the first century coming of Christ, establishment of His Church, and final judgment upon apostate Jerusalem, as it is written:

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Richard

We have ample reason for believing that we can be close to the return of Jesus as we see events taking place in the Middle East and we see how the kingdoms of Gog and Magog (present day Russia) and what is now the modern-day Holy Roman Empire that is mainly Europe are strategically placed; as are all the nations that will gather around the Middle East. God is bringing about His purpose and it is only Bible scholars who have any chance of seeing how God is ruling in the kingdoms of men. I would not like to predict any dates, though I believe we are close. I might die before I see the events spoken of taking place in Israel, but I am assured that God will keep His word and His promises to Abraham will be kept and God's kindgdom will be set up on this earth and His Glory will fill the earth as he has declared.

I see no reason whatsoever to think we are in the "last times." The Bible repeatedly and emphatically states that the "last times" happened in the first century. The situation in the modern middle east is nothing like what was predicted (and fuflilled) in the first century. There is no temple, and the "Jews" are not practiciing their religion like they were back then.

Great chatting,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Certainly hindsight is the best validation of a prophecy. But if prophecy were intended entirely for hindsight, then why warn people? Wouldn't people discover the bridge is out, as they launch into the air? And isn't that sufficient in and of itself? And so you can choose to discover those circumstances post fact, but others may do well to anticipate future events, even to the year and season.

How can prophecy server to warn anyone of anything? People have been crying "wolf" for two thousand years, using the same "prophecies." They are, therefore, absolutely useless as any kind of "warning." Nobody has any clue how to interpret them. You are very late to the party. Folks have been "warning" of all the horrors of Revelation for many decades. Just look at the "Left Behind" series and the "Late Great Planet Earth" which was written back in the 70s, forty years ago!


As for the purpose of prophecy, here is how I explained it back in the day when I was a Christian:

THE PURPOSE OF PROPHECY

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. ~ John 20:30-31

The primary purpose of prophecy is not to give us the ability to "predict the future" like a fortune-teller, but to build faith and to confirm the Doctrine of the Gospel by proving that God knew history in advance and directed its outcome to accomplish His purpose of redemption, as it is written:

And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. ~ John 14:29

The purpose of prophecy is the same as that of the Bible as a whole. It is to build faith in God and His Word. It is pointless and vain to invent complex eschatological systems about the character of life in the Millennium, the time of the Rapture, the rebuilding of the Temple, or its destruction by a future "Antichrist." That is not the purpose of prophecy, and none of those doctrines can be confirmed with any certainty from Scripture anyway. The overwhelming body of Biblical prophecy concerned the coming of our great and might God in the incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ in the first century. There probably are prophetic "bits and pieces" that are still future, but I am not certain of that, and I am not aware of any explicit prophecy that clearly applies to any events still future.

[BibleScribe]

How can prophecy server to warn anyone of anything? People have been crying "wolf" for two thousand years, using the same "prophecies." ...

Hi RAM, (Richard),

If your sources didn't heed the angelic guidance in Daniel 12;4 & 9, that's their fault. However, just because people do stupid things with skateboards, bicycles, saws, guns, cars, Scripture, etc., it doesn't mean that these things are without useful purpose.

Furthermore, Scripture provides very few "do not's", one of which pertains to prophecy:

1 Thess 5
19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.


But if you've been burned by those who abuse Scripture such that you cannot receive the intended benefit of that resource, then I guess you're on your own.


Wishing you well,
BibleScribe



PS

2 Peter 1:20 says prophecy is not a personal interpretation. Thus what I perceive is easily discerned by anyone. It's no different between what J.R. Church correctly provided, and how someone might take that information and increase it to a next level. J.R. Church noted that Psalms 118:8 is the middle of the Bible (as most people might already be aware of). He pointed out that Psalms 117 is the shortest Chapter in the Bible, Psalms 119 is the longest Chapter of the Bible, and that these cannot be a random coincidence.

But who has taken the next step to validate the Psalms against Daniel's seventy shibiym/shabuwa? Does the Psalms provide the "going forth of the word", and are the 70 durations accounted for in the Psalms?

I would suggest that they are, and anyone can discover those aspects with minimal perspective as cited by Young, Newton, and Church.

That is, unless they cannot receive these things. Then all bets are off.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi RAM, (Richard),

If your sources didn't heed the angelic guidance in Daniel 12;4 & 9, that's their fault. However, just because people do stupid things with skateboards, bicycles, saws, guns, cars, Scripture, etc., it doesn't mean that these things are without useful purpose.

Furthermore, Scripture provides very few "do not's", one of which pertains to prophecy:

1 Thess 5
19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.


But if you've been burned by those who abuse Scripture such that you cannot receive the intended benefit of that resource, then I guess you're on your own.


Wishing you well,
BibleScribe

Hey there BibleScribe,

There is no "angelic guidance" in Dan 12:4,9 other than the statement that the prophecies would not be understood till the time of their fulfillment, namely, the first century when the Temple was destroyed and the "power of the holy people" was scattered.

And I'm not the one who has been "burned" by false date setters. They burned themselves, and you too will be burned when your dates pass with no fulfillment of your prophecies.

Are you new to this game or have you made other predictions in the past that failed? Do you have a website where you share your predictions?

PS

2 Peter 1:20 says prophecy is not a personal interpretation. Thus what I perceive is easily discerned by anyone. It's no different between what J.R. Church correctly provided, and how someone might take that information and increase it to a next level. J.R. Church noted that Psalms 118:8 is the middle of the Bible (as most people might already be aware of). He pointed out that Psalms 117 is the shortest Chapter in the Bible, Psalms 119 is the longest Chapter of the Bible, and that these cannot be a random coincidence.

But who has taken the next step to validate the Psalms against Daniel's seventy shibiym/shabuwa? Does the Psalms provide the "going forth of the word", and are the 70 durations accounted for in the Psalms?

I would suggest that they are, and anyone can discover those aspects with minimal perspective as cited by Young, Newton, and Church.

That is, unless they cannot receive these things. Then all bets are off.

Psalm 118:8 is NOT the middle of the Bible. That is a very common error amongst folks who don't check the facts for themselves because it was spread all over the internet.

First, it depends upon how you count things. The "middle verse" does not fall in the "middle chapter" and the "middle chapter" does not fall in the "middle book."

Middle Book: There are 66 books (an even number), so there is no "middle book" but rather a pair of books in the middle (numbered 33 and 34). These are Micah and Nahum.

Middle Chapter: There are 1189 chapters. This is an odd number, so there is a middle chapter. It is (1189+1)/2 = chapter 595 = Psalm 117. This also is the shortest chapter.

Middle Verse: There are 31,102 verses in the Bible. This number is even, so there is no "middle verse" but rather a pair of verses, numbered 15551 and 15552. These verses are Psalm 103:1,2.

So there you go. Now please think about this: If neither you not J. R. Church could count the verses accurately (something which is very easy to confirm), I think you should take this as a warning that your other interpretations (which can't be so easily proven true or false with any certainty) could be just as erroneous.

That's why I reject all this silly "prophecy" talk. Folks like you have been making false assertions for hundreds of years. The people who came before you spoke with the same kind of "certainty" that they were right and had it all figured out. But when their dates came and went, they usually just made up new dates and refused to admit that they were wrong. Harold Camping blamed God for misleading "us" about the end "for His own sovereign purposes." Such delusions are typical of folks who set dates for the end times.

I hope you don't take any offense. None is intended. It's just that I've seen nothing but error when it comes to Bible prophecy, so I speak my mind rather plainly. So many people are totally deceived about so much in the Bible, I think it best to state the truth very plainly.

All the best,

Richard

[BibleScribe]

Hey RAM, (Richard),

There is no "angelic guidance" in Dan 12:4,9 other than the statement that the prophecies would not be understood till the time of their fulfillment, namely, the first century when the Temple was destroyed and the "power of the holy people" was scattered.

As a simple first cut, this would deny the Chapter 2 FIFTH "divided" empire of Clay. And if evaluated further, it would deny Chapters 7, 8, 9, 11, & 12.

Psalm 118:8 is NOT the middle of the Bible.

I'll quote what J.R. Church provided:

"The 118th psalm is located between the shortest chapter (Psalm 117) and the longest chapter (Psalm 119) in the Bible and it contains the middle verse. There are 1189 chapters in the Christian Bible, 594 chapters before and 594 chapters after Psalm 118:8. It is remarkable to note that 594 plus 594 make a sum total of 1188 -- which is the number of the chapter and verse which contains the middle verse. It must be more than a coincidence."


According to "King James Bible Statistics" (http://www.biblebelievers.com/believ...kjv-stats.html) you are correct in your assessment. (Thanks for the heads-up. )

However, after having said this, I wonder whether we have given full credit to the Jewish portion of our English translation. Specifically:



Per http://www.hebrew4christians.com/for...p?f=151&t=2612

In the Protestant Christian Old Testament, ... the middle chapter would appear to be Job 29 whereas the middle verse would be 2 Chron. 20:17-18
... the middle verse of the Torah is Lev. 13:33, while according to Masoretic text, the middle verse is Lev. 8:7.


And where this doesn't immediately resolve the discussion at hand, it does point to a potential discrepancy between various statistical analyses and our confidences. -- This certainly is going to require some additional thought!



RAM, thanks again for shedding light on "facts" which some purport, but may not necessarily be true.


Your Friend,
BibleScribe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey there BibleScribe,

I am very glad that you received my observations in the spirit they were intended!

As a simple first cut, this would deny the Chapter 2 FIFTH "divided" empire of Clay. And if evaluated further, it would deny Chapters 7, 8, 9, 11, & 12.

Yes, I deny that there is a separate "fifth" empire of clay. I see that as part of the fourth empire = fist century Rome.

I don't see how it "denies" those other chapters. As mentioned in previous posts, the book of Daniel is a "swamp of confusion" and the best interpretation (best because it is the most broadly consistent with the rest of Scripture) is the Preterist view. The key is the Olivet Discourse which linked the destruction of the Temple to the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies. And this coheres with Revelation which was to happen "soon" relative to the first century. The Great City (Harlot) is apostate Jerusalem, exactly as stated in Rev 11:8.

And concerning the "sealing" of the books: Rev was NOT sealed because the time was at hand. This confirms, yet again (there are hundreds of confirmations) that the end times happened in the first century.

I'll quote what J.R. Church provided:

"The 118th psalm is located between the shortest chapter (Psalm 117) and the longest chapter (Psalm 119) in the Bible and it contains the middle verse. There are 1189 chapters in the Christian Bible, 594 chapters before and 594 chapters after Psalm 118:8. It is remarkable to note that 594 plus 594 make a sum total of 1188 -- which is the number of the chapter and verse which contains the middle verse. It must be more than a coincidence."

It is unfortunate that a man with such a large audience made such a sophomoric blunder.

According to "King James Bible Statistics" (http://www.biblebelievers.com/believ...kjv-stats.html) you are correct in your assessment. (Thanks for the heads-up. )

You are most welcome!

However, after having said this, I wonder whether we have given full credit to the Jewish portion of our English translation. Specifically:


Per http://www.hebrew4christians.com/for...p?f=151&t=2612

In the Protestant Christian Old Testament, ... the middle chapter would appear to be Job 29 whereas the middle verse would be 2 Chron. 20:17-18
... the middle verse of the Torah is Lev. 13:33, while according to Masoretic text, the middle verse is Lev. 8:7.


And where this doesn't immediately resolve the discussion at hand, it does point to a potential discrepancy between various statistical analyses and our confidences. -- This certainly is going to require some additional thought!

There are no discrepancies other than those caused by different versions of the Bible. The Jewish Tanakh has a different order of the OT books and some variations in versification, and the Catholics have the apocrypha. But within a particular version such as the KJV, there are no discrepancies. It's easy to count the chapters and verses.

Case in point: There are 5852 verses in the Torah of the KJV. This number is even so there is no middle verse, but rather a pair of middle verses numbered 2926 and 2927, corresponding to Lev 8:8-9. I don't know where you got the Lev 13:13.

RAM, thanks again for shedding light on "facts" which some purport, but may not necessarily be true.


Your Friend,
BibleScribe

It's a joy to be working with you on these questions, my friend,

Richard

[David M]

Hello Richard

Thank you for answering in such a detailed way. I do not know how you have the time to write so much with all the different threads. I am finding it difficult to keep up with the threads I have contributed to and then get asked questions.

Hey there David,

Glad you joined in.

Concerting "this generation." In every example in the NT, you will find that "this generation" refers to the generation that was listening to Chrsit speak. It cannot mean a future generation, since that would be "that generation" not "this generation." Greek has a "this" and a "that" just like in English.

And the meaning of "this generation" is confirmed by history. Christ predicted the destruction of the Temple to happen during that generation, and behold, that's exactly what happened. Therefore, there are many mutually confirming and incontrovertable witnesses that say the same thing. There is no question about the meaning.

Simple as "this" or "that" sounds this is where I might be confused. I will take note of what you say until I can convince myself Jesus is not meaning by this generation to mean the generation Jesus is talking about at the time these things take place. He refers to this generation after listing the events not before. It is not like saying; this generation (the one now) shall see these future events. Some also regard many prophecies as having dual fulfillment so I also keep an open mind on this possibility.

Richard, it would be helpful to know which prophecies you believe have yet to be fulfilled especially as you consider all that Jesus is speaking of regarding the signs of the times happened in AD 70. There are elements of this prophecy that are still future to me and I cannot see how they apply to AD70. Maybe this will be covered by another prophecy unless you believe there are no prophecies left to be fulfilled.

Christ has already ascended to the throne of David, as it is written:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Scripture defines the meaning of the prophecy! It says that it was speaking of "the resurrection of Christ." Why do you say it speaks of Christ sitting on a literal stone throne on a dusty piece of Middle Eastern real estate?

Jesus has been raised, but he is not sitting on the throne in Jerusalem. It is very easy to confuse Jesus sitting at the right hand of God at God's throne with Jesus sitting on the physical throne that is to be established again in Jerusalem from where Jesus will reign in power on the earth. I believe these things take place on earth where the action is and not in Heaven as others are claiming and saying Jesus is "ruling over the earth" from Heaven. This does not account for the literal return of Jesus which is future.

It is no wonder there is such confusion about eschatology when things stated with such clarity are rejected in favor of fantasies that have no foundation whatsoever in Scripture.

I agree with your statement. However, we regard each other as having fantasies.

Where does the Bible say that they would be gathered together again after the dispersion of 70 AD? It does not! All the prophecies of "gathering Israel" were given when Israel was in Babylon or before. There is no prediction of a return in 1948. All the prophecies concerning Israel were marked with a specific time. I explained this in a thread called Continuity of Prophetic History confirms Preterism. The basic idea is that all the major events in the history of Israel - 400 years of bondage in Egypt, 40 years in the wilderness, 70 years in Babylon, and 490 years to Christ - were all predicted with numerical precision. No similar predictions were given for the dispersion of Israel that happened in 70 AD, and there are no promises of any return. Here is what I wrote:

We need to agree what the three possible over turnings of Jerusalem are. There was the time of captivity into Babylon, there was AD 70 and there is possibly another one to come.

I did not say 1948 was the predicted date, only that Bible scholars at the beginning of the 1900s were looking for the establishment of Israel as a nation again and 1948 is when it took place. Do you see no significance at all of the re-establishment of Israel? When will the Messiah come to the Jews? They have not recognized Jesus up to now, he has not fulifilled that role to the Jews. When will the Jews "look on him whom they pierced" and recognize that is was Jesus who they crucified? "Jerusalem shall be trodden down until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled", when has the time of the Gentiles been fulfilled?

I see no reason whatsoever to think we are in the "last times." The Bible repeatedly and emphatically states that the "last times" happened in the first century. The situation in the modern middle east is nothing like what was predicted (and fuflilled) in the first century. There is no temple, and the "Jews" are not practiciing their religion like they were back then.

Great chatting,

Richard

"The Bible repeatedly and emphatically states that the "last times" happened in the first century." This is what you say and many who do not agree with your statement. If the Bible is so emphatic as you say, we would not be having this argument. Your positive assertions do not add weight to the argument.
There are many things Jesus did not say. Each generation thinks their times are worse than the generation before and eventually one generation will be proved correct. We are not out of the economic crisis and this potentially could get a lot worse, the scale of pollution of the atmosphere and seas and lakes are worse than many realize. The nuclear threat has not gone away and for Israel, they are worried (as the rest of the world is) that Iran are close to developing a nuclear bomb to destroy Israel. Civil unrest is springing up in countries where the people have been oppressed. The number of wars in the world is growing, not decreasing. The world's resources are being used up, and the actions of those to try and stop are only helping to slow the destruction of the planet down, they have not reversed the trend. All the trends point towards disaster and there is little that man is doing about it. "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." "no flesh" is talking of catastrophic events in which man is going to destroy himself entirely. Never has that time been greater than it is now and matters are only getting worse, that is the trend.


Likewise it is great chatting to get these different viewpoints in the open.

David

[David M]

Hi David,

You offer sound advice as to the times in which we live. For where some prophecy is as of yet unfulfilled, it is given so that we might be prepared.


And if I might clarify one point, -- many depict Daniel 2 as presenting FOUR world empires:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Sliver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4.A. Iron, Roman
4.B. Iron/Clay, Revived Roman

However, 2:45 breaks the 4A/4B premise by the sequence: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold, -- 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. And when evaluated against world history, we should find that we are in the "divided" empire of Clay as evidenced by the three-superpowers. And the residue of Iron is evidenced because the empire of Rome was never replaced, it simply ceased to exist. Thus virtually all current governments use the Roman Representative REPUBLIC model, as evidenced in our own Pledge of Allegiance: "... and to the REPUBLIC, for which it stands ...".

And so although many would look to the EU as the one-world-government, the true source of that future is the United Nations. And for your consideration please allow me to present the "ten" toes/horns:

PS I haven't looked back to see who actually started this thread, (it wasn't me), but I agree that it is an aspect which the Christians should be aware of.

Hello BibleScribe
I now see you did not start this thread but you were the first to reply and the discourse between you and Richard began from there. I should thank Twospirits for bringing the apology to my attention.

I know you have covered this elsewhere and I appreciate what you say about the united nations and I am thinking about this.
I know there have been lots of claims that have turned out to be false. The ten toes of the image were regarded by some to be the Common Market and whilst I saw that as a possibility when the Common Market was set up, I see it less likely now. It is thought that Britain will pull out of the Common Market completely. Britain has already been sidelined so as not to have the veto to block future progress.

I think I need you to explain the following more fully. Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold, -- 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE Point me to another thread if you have already explained this. Why have you put Clay in the middle as number 5?

Your thoughts are worth thinking about as this does give a plausible explanation for the feet and toes representing a divided kingdom which either can be taken to represent a fifth kingdom along the lines you have described or as seen another way as a progression from iron to iron and clay. The image clearly shows two legs of iron which have been understood to be the Roman empire, but Daniel does not state from the beginning that the fourth Kingdom would be divided. So the question is; are the feet to represent one kingdom as you explain or just as two legs represented the Roman Empire. Whichever extra interpretation we put on Daniel's explanation we can be fairly sure the image is still standing on its feet. "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever". We have not got to the stage just quoted the present day kingdom including all word empires have not been swallowed up to be part of the one great stone.


Thanks again for sharing you thoughts.

David

[BibleScribe]

I am very glad that you received my observations in the spirit they were intended!

I'm equally glad to enjoy a cordial conversation.

Yes, I deny that there is a separate "fifth" empire of clay. I see that as part of the fourth empire = fist century Rome.

Daniel 2:45 provides the sequence, ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, which would seem to be significant, either as I've proposed or as you might propose. History agrees that we are in a FIFTH "divided" empire as evidenced by the three-superpowers, all of which use the Roman Representative REPUBLIC model (Iron), and the pending one-world government which shall have a ten-nation participation.

I don't see how it "denies" those other chapters.

First of all, Chapter 2 says FIVE, and Chapter 7 says FOUR. And because FIVE≠FOUR, we should perceive that the Chapter 7 provides the "divided" empire specifics. As such one should find reference to the U.K./U.S.; Russia; China; and the United Nations. And where verses 11-12 describe the future of the U.N., it also says the three superpowers would continue for a season and a time, until they are converted into the Millennial Kingdom model.

Chapter 8 is a little more difficult to interpret, but it too pertains to the 1900's. Chapter 11 is easy to follow as it depicts events related to the two "active" superpowers, U.S. & Russia, and only brings in China at the end where it plays a predominate international role. And of course Chapter 12 is self evident as to the event durations in those future times.

And of course, a good outline can sometimes resolve ambiguities:


Daniel Chapter 2
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay, "divided"
6. Stone, Millennial Kingdom
7. Eternity in heaven


Daniel Chapters 2 & 7
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China
-- 8. "dreadful", United Nations
9. Stone, Millennial Kingdom
10. Eternity in heaven


(Please note that Chapter 8 is a little difficult to present, and requires more explanation than a simple outline can defend.)


Daniel Chapter 11
1. ~is~, -- Darius the Mede, Babylonian
2. 1 of 3, shall arise in Persia -- Medo/Persian
3. 2 of 3, conquered Persia -- Grecian
4. 3 of 3, exercised dominion over Persia -- Roman
-- fourth
-- 5. the king of the north, Russia
-- 6. the king of the south, U.K./U.S
-- 7. kings of the east, China & ally(s)
8. "he shall pitch is palatial tents", United Nations


Revelation Chapter 13 Beast with Seven Heads and Ten Horns
1. Babylonian -- head #1
2. Medo/Persian -- head #2
3. Grecian -- head #3
4. Roman -- head #4
5. U.K./U.S. -- head #5
6. Russia -- head #6, (is "mortally wounded" by China)
7. China -- head #7
8. United Nations -- is the one-world government "beast" with 10 horns
-- Current Membership of the Permanent Security Council:
-- 1. U.S.
-- 2. U.K.
-- 3. France
-- 4. Russia
-- 5. China
-- Nominated Membership to the Permanent Security Council:
-- 6. Germany -- economic power
-- 7. Japan -- economic power
-- 8. Brazil -- regional representative for S. America
-- 9. Nigeria -- regional representative for Africa
-- 10 India -- regional representative for the Near East


Revelation Chapter 17
1. Babylonian -- 1 of 5 has fallen
2. Medo/Persian -- 2 of 5 has fallen
3. Grecian -- 3 of 5 has fallen
4. Roman -- 4 of 5 has fallen
5. U.K./U.S. -- 5 of 5 has fallen from preeminence
6. Russia -- "one is" when it attacks Israel
7. China -- "shall remain a little while"
8. United Nations -- "was and is not" because it has NO geography, NO populous, NO army, etc.



[QUOTE=RAM;42047]
I don't know where you got the Lev 13:13.
[/quote

It came from a homepage I cited:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/for...p?f=151&t=2612

It's not to say that I fully agree regarding any chapter/verse statistics and their purported implications, for these may be subject to further research. But I do anticipate that Psalms 118 has some significance with respect to prophetic concepts as proposed.


RAM, (Richard), I appreciate your consultation, and wish you the best.

BibleScribe