What is the difference between Moses and Osama Bin Laden?

[Bob May]

It takes practice? How do you ever know if you are right? I mean, suppose someone finds archeological evidence for the slaughter of the Midianites. That would prove you wrong. What would prove you right?

Hi Richard,
How do I know that I am right?
You would not believe me if I told you because you think that I am wrong. So we will leave that one alone.

If someone found evidence of slaughter of midianites it would not prove that God commanded it or that there were mass sex slaves etc., etc.

You are all proving me right. Not to you, but to me. Gil says that the Father is dead. Jesus said differently.
Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. Jesus did not or would not command the rape of or mass murder of anyone. That is obvious. Others say you have to factor in ther times they lived in. But God says He changes not, so that explanation does not wash.

I don't understand you question about the veil. It was not the cause of the fact that the Jews failed to understand the OT.

It was the cause of not understanding the writings of Moses and still is. I am pointing out allegory as a tool that God used in writing the scriptures. But merely looking at the text or not looking at the text allegorically is not the entire problem. I attended a church for 14 years that used Hebrew meanings and Charles Filmore's metaphysical Bible dictionary to guide us through the allegorical meanings of Deuteronomy and Leviticus and many other parts of the OT.
And yet we as a church by our adherence to the importance of Law became blinded and condemned by the very books we studied.
It was not until a few of us began to see the doctrine of Grace that ran throughout scripture that we began to understand the New Covenant and how it applied to us and how we had been blind to it for so long.
This is what Jesus meant when he said,
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Paul simply used that as an allegory. And the fact that he used it as an allegory doesn't mean it didn't really happen.

Paul recognised it as an allegory. He did not twist it into an allegory.
And you are correct,.. just because it is allegory does not mean it didn't really happen. But just because there was a war between Israel (who, by the way Paul says that we are) and another nation does not mean that the story concerning that war was not created in such a way that spoke of the internal struggles that we go through in order to come to a correct understanding of our relationship with the Father.

Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus.

Ga 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Ga 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Ga 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Ga 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Ga 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Ga 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Ga 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

Something happened to Paul's way of thinking. He went from "zealous of the traditions of my fathers.."
To being "called ..by His (God's) Grace."

That was a complete change in his way of viewing his relationship with God. It was also acompanied by a realisation that the OT was allegorical. I believe that much of that three year period and even beyond was taken up with being taught by Jesus concerning the scripture and re-evaluating the OT stories in the light of both his new awareness of Grace and allegorical interpretation of scripture.

Bob

[Bob May]

Hello Bob,

Moses was a radical Hebrew who was responsible for murdering people of many religions including other Hebrews!

Semitic and Semitic.

Rose

Only if you believe that the stories were actual/literally true.
But this viewpoint does not compute with Jesus being the express image of the Father.

So either the Bible was not written by divine inspiration or something else is being said there.

Bob

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Only if you believe that the stories were actual/literally true.
But this viewpoint does not compute with Jesus being the express image of the Father.

So either the Bible was not written by divine inspiration or something else is being said there.

Bob

Those seem to be the two options.

And since the "something else" seems as unworthy of Divine Wisdom as the "literal interpretation" I am forced to conclude that the Bible is not the product of "divine inspiration" - or at least not in the sense that is commonly understood.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,
How do I know that I am right?
You would not believe me if I told you because you think that I am wrong. So we will leave that one alone.

You tease!

Please tell me! I'm begging man ... ya gotta tell me ... pretty please???

If someone found evidence of slaughter of midianites it would not prove that God commanded it or that there were mass sex slaves etc., etc.

Yeah, I think you are right. No amount of proof would convince a person who has chosen not to believe something.

You are all proving me right. Not to you, but to me. Gil says that the Father is dead. Jesus said differently.
Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. Jesus did not or would not command the rape of or mass murder of anyone. That is obvious. Others say you have to factor in ther times they lived in. But God says He changes not, so that explanation does not wash.

I agree it is "obvious" that Jesus would not have commanded the things we see in the OT. But it is just as obvious that he would not have inspired them to be written! So this means the Bible is not inspired by God.

I don't understand you question about the veil. It was not the cause of the fact that the Jews failed to understand the OT.

It was the cause of not understanding the writings of Moses and still is.

The veil did not "cause" anything. It was an allegory, not a "cause."

I am pointing out allegory as a tool that God used in writing the scriptures. But merely looking at the text or not looking at the text allegorically is not the entire problem. I attended a church for 14 years that used Hebrew meanings and Charles Filmore's metaphysical Bible dictionary to guide us through the allegorical meanings of Deuteronomy and Leviticus and many other parts of the OT.
And yet we as a church by our adherence to the importance of Law became blinded and condemned by the very books we studied.
It was not until a few of us began to see the doctrine of Grace that ran throughout scripture that we began to understand the New Covenant and how it applied to us and how we had been blind to it for so long.
This is what Jesus meant when he said,
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

I think I understand perfectly what you are doing and how you are doing it. I just find it utterly unbelievable because it is so radically free of any hermeneutical constraints. It feels like an interpretation made of the thinnest gossamer. It makes the Bible feel meaningless.

Something happened to Paul's way of thinking. He went from "zealous of the traditions of my fathers.."
To being "called ..by His (God's) Grace."

That was a complete change in his way of viewing his relationship with God. It was also acompanied by a realisation that the OT was allegorical. I believe that much of that three year period and even beyond was taken up with being taught by Jesus concerning the scripture and re-evaluating the OT stories in the light of both his new awareness of Grace and allegorical interpretation of scripture.

Bob

Paul did not invent the idea of allegorical interpretation! That's not the "new way of thinking" that he experienced. The "new way of thinking" was his understanding of the Gospel, righteousness by faith, etc.

[Rose]

There are many differences between Moses and Osam:

1. Moses was an orphan, was Osama an orphan?

2. Moses had seen and talked with God directly, Osama believed he received messages from God.

3. Moses ordered the killings with direct instructions from God, Osama ordered the killings thinking he have permission with God.

4. Moses was victorious in almost every battle but Osama.....?

5. Moses Had miraculous powers from God such as the parting of the Red Sea but Osama.....?

6. Moses died at an old ripe age at about 120 years but Osama was killed at about age 50

7. Moses appeared in the Transfiguration, did Osama appeared to his people after he was killed?

8. Moses occupied large tracts of land but Osama...?

9. Moses obeyed and followed God's instruction directly but Osama followed his agenda thinking it was from God.

10. Moses led his people to the Holy Land but Osama....?

11. Moses was a prophet, Osama was not known as a prophet.

12. Moses talked with Jesus, did Osama talked with Jesus?

13. Moses gave the Hebrews the Ten Commandments directly from God, did Osama gave his men commandments or commandments thought to be directly from God?

Blessings to all.

Hi Cheow, thanks for taking time to respond I will answer in red.

1. Moses was an orphan, was Osama an orphan? The differences I was referring to have nothing to do with childhood circumstances.

2. Moses had seen and talked with God directly, Osama believed he received messages from God. The Bible tells us Moses spoke with God directly, we have no other historical proof of that, in the same manner Osama and all of his Muslim followers believed that he was given direct messages from Allah (God).

3. Moses ordered the killings with direct instructions from God, Osama ordered the killings thinking he have permission with God. That's right! The Bible tells us that God commanded Moses to murder thousands of people because they were pagans and idol worshipers, and Osama believed God told him to murder thousands of people because they were infidels.

4. Moses was victorious in almost every battle but Osama.....? Osama was victorious in some of his attacks which resulted in thousands of deaths

5. Moses Had miraculous powers from God such as the parting of the Red Sea but Osama.....? We only know that to be true from the biblical account.

6. Moses died at an old ripe age at about 120 years but Osama was killed at about age 50 That's a difference, but it doesn't really matter.

7. Moses appeared in the Transfiguration, did Osama appeared to his people after he was killed? I have no idea if Osama has appeared in visions to his followers.

8. Moses occupied large tracts of land but Osama...? So?

9. Moses obeyed and followed God's instruction directly but Osama followed his agenda thinking it was from God. Moses followed God's commands to murder thousands of people, just like Osama followed Allah's command to murder thousands of people!

10. Moses led his people to the Holy Land but Osama....? Osama believed that Mohammed led his people to the Holy Land.

11. Moses was a prophet, Osama was not known as a prophet. Osama was indeed a prophet to his Islamic terrorist followers.

12. Moses talked with Jesus, did Osama talked with Jesus? Osama believed in Mohammed and heard from Allah.

13. Moses gave the Hebrews the Ten Commandments directly from God, did Osama gave his men commandments or commandments thought to be directly from God? Osama believed he was following the Koran which Mohammed recieved from Allah.

All the comparisons look pretty similar to me...both Moses and Osama were Semitic men who believe they recieved commands from God to murder thousands of people because they were idolotrous, pagan, infidels!

All the best,
Rose

[Rose]

Hello Rose

Any similarity between Moses and Bin Laden should soon be dispelled. I do not know of any redeeming qualities of Bin Laden, perhaps you can enlighten us. Moses had been placed in Pharaoh's household. The story of Moses found in a basket in the river might sound fairy story, but the reason leading up to that was not pleasant.
Exodus 1:22 And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.
Pharaoh had no pity on the baby boys of the Israelite women. When it comes to the plagues and the killing of the first born, I expect we shall be back on the morality of God issue.

Anyway, these long separated events show us exactly how God is using situations to bring about his purpose. We have to learn the lessons as we read of all the events that took place. God put Moses in the right place at the right time.

God chose Moses even though Moses did not regard himself qualified; Exodus4:10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
I know how he felt. Moses was God's spokesman and so I can only assume that this topic is going to lead on to the morality of God again.

Hi David, glad you joined the conversation

My point is not to show the redeeming qualities of Osama, though I'm sure his followers thought he had plenty.

The morality of God, that's what it's all about! Why is it moral for God to command Moses to murder thousands of people, and immoral for Osama to murder thousands of people on direct command from Allah?

I think we should study the humility of Moses and his faith in God. All these "great" men of God were a type of Jesus, but none of them were perfect and they failed. We know how Moses failed to sanctify God before he struck the rock to produce water. Despite his failing, God did not let him down. We know that Moses was punished for this action in his life and he was not allowed to enter the Pomised Land.

I know you will hold God to account for Moses operating under God's instruction. When the Israelites collectively killed in the time of war under instruction, they were to be regarded as guiltless.
Deut 21:8 Be merciful, O LORD, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed, and lay not innocent blood unto thy people of Israel's charge. And the blood shall be forgiven them.9 So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD..

We can find examples of when the Israelites were not guiltless and when they were punished. Also, we see that the Israelites did not always follow the instruction that God gave to Moses to give to the people. They saved people instead of utterly destroying them as was the command.

I know the Bible depicts Moses as a type of Christ, but when you stop and think about it I would not want to compare Jesus with a murderer of thousands. It's one thing to kill in a time of war, but quite another to murderer your own people and others simply because they are worshiping idols! Moses had three thousand of his own people slaughtered simply because they were worshiping a golden calf.

I will cut this short as I know I will have opportunity to say more later on or in another thread. I only wanted to give some indication that Moses cannot really be compared to Bin Laden. You are making the comparison which is bound to bring up the discussions we have been having about the same attrocities in the many of your threads.

All the best

David

Of course Moses can be compared to Osama.

Moses was a radical religious fanatic that had thousands of his own people and others murdered, by command from God - simply because they were worshiping idols...the exact same scenario applies to Osama.

Great chatting,
Rose

[Bob May]

Hi Bob,
Hi Rick,

Why would Jesus refer to men that were really allegories?

He did it all the time.

Mt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mt 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Mt 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mt 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

Was there really a merchant man and a woman hiding leaven in three measures of meal or the man finding treasure???
There very well may have been but the stories concerning them is the "Reality" that Jesus is pointing to.

Does anyone you know talk that way? I don't talk that way or know anyone that talks that way so why would Jesus expect us to understand that He was talking about non-real personas?

Yes, I do.
Jesus talked that way to his disciples and taught them allegory.

Mt 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mt 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mt 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mt 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Etc., Etc., ....




Mt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. Mt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Now, you may think that that is unfair. Some people were taught allegory and some were not. But wait a minute,... WHAT HE TOLD THEM IN SECRET IS NO LONGER SECRET!!!!
It has been published in the New Testament now, so it is available to all of us.

Mat 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

So they were practicing the law. So what??

If they were practicing the entire law they would not have been stoning adulterers or people that picked up stick on the Sabbath because Justice and mercy (Which were also a part of the law) would have tempered their following of those laws.

What about this?

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

So, is Peter playing along with Jesus now or does he see Moses, too?

I did not say Moses did not exist. But the stories concerning Moses were written to be looked at more deeply. Jesus said that Moses wrote of him.
The law was written to bring every man guilty before God. It brings us to the end of ourselves, not only in our ability to keep the law, but also in our inability to resolve the apparently unresolveable idea of who God is,..and what reality is.
The mentality that Moses signifies becomes useless when we come to the promised land/Kingdom of heaven.
Jesus demonstrated that the law could not be kept. The Pharisees by keeping the law of circumcision had to break the law of Sabbath.
This is the conundrum. Break one law and you are guilty of all...

Moses is the opposite of Jesus. A contrast of two entirely different ways of thinking.
Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

So Moses was compared to Jesus, but it was a CONTRASTING comparison.

Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and

one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Very good example. So if the story concerning Moses was true then he should not have been alive. Correct?
He never made it into the promised land. But you are missing the important part of that particular story.
Mt 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Mt 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. Mt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Mt 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

So in order to hear Jesus we are given the knowledge of the allegorical nature that the scripture was written in. It is all about hearing Jesus in both the Old and New Testaments.
Jesus thought that it was necessary in order to hear and understand.
What do you think?

Is everything an allegory to everyone? Moses, Satan maybe even Jesus? I suppose since you have never seen these figures physically and personally you can reduce them all to allegories.

Moses, Jesus and Satan are all real entities/people. Everything Jesus was said to have done, he did.
Both Satan and Moses accuse us. Jesus does not.
Once we get an awareness of what Grace is neither Moses nor Satan has any more power over us. They have accomplished what they were supposed to accomplish in our spiritual growth.
If we are no longer under the law how can we be accused of not having kept the law or not keeping it?
DUH!!!

Sigh!!

It is increasingly difficult to converse with you all because everything is whatever you want it to be.

I am finding it difficult also. Because though Jesus said how can you understand all parables unless you understand the the "mysteries",.. which he teaches to his disciples (US) as allegory, yet very few seem to hear it. Why is that? He said it was necessary in order to hear and understand what he was saying.
"All parables" would also include the OT parables.

What about the reality of Christ in you? Is that an allegory, to you too?

Rick

Of course that is true. Christ in you the hope of glory is THE MYSTERY that we are striving for. And in order for us to come to that understanding Jesus gives us allegory as a tool. But also as I said earlier in this post, it is merely a tool that helps us to understand the scripture in the way that it was written. The main thing is an awareness that we are no longer under the law but under grace. With that awareness we grow more and more able to understand scripture both Old and New Testaments.
It is not up to us nor within our ability to comprehend any of this without the Spirit.

All the best,
Bob

[Bob May]

Those seem to be the two options.

And since the "something else" seems as unworthy of Divine Wisdom as the "literal interpretation" I am forced to conclude that the Bible is not the product of "divine inspiration" - or at least not in the sense that is commonly understood.

Ok. I'll say actual, as literal means the original intent of the author.
You are not forced to believe that the bible is not divinely inspired.
It is not in the sense that is commonly understood.

Bob

[Bob May]

Hey Richard,

""Originally Posted by Bob May
Hi Richard,
How do I know that I am right?
You would not believe me if I told you because you think that I am wrong. So we will leave that one alone.""

You tease!

It takes practice? How do you ever know if you are right? I mean, suppose someone finds archeological evidence for the slaughter of the Midianites. That would prove you wrong. What would prove you right?

Please tell me! I'm begging man ... ya gotta tell me ... pretty please???

Ok, since you asked pretty please. By revelation.
It's kind of like having a belly ache. I know it is true, but I can't prove it to you.

Yeah, I think you are right. No amount of proof would convince a person who has chosen not to believe something.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

I agree it is "obvious" that Jesus would not have commanded the things we see in the OT. But it is just as obvious that he would not have inspired them to be written! So this means the Bible is not inspired by God.

It is your choice to believe that. The other option is to believe that the Old Testament is inspired but written allegorically.

The veil did not "cause" anything. It was an allegory, not a "cause."

2co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
2co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

Yes the veil upon Moses face was allegory for the veil that is upon our hearts until we come to an awareness of Grace.
But what it shows is that without this veil that is upon our hearts we cannot understand the writings of Moses.

I think I understand perfectly what you are doing and how you are doing it. I just find it utterly unbelievable because it is so radically free of any hermeneutical constraints. It feels like an interpretation made of the thinnest gossamer. It makes the Bible feel meaningless.
Paul did not invent the idea of allegorical interpretation! That's not the "new way of thinking" that he experienced. The "new way of thinking" was his understanding of the Gospel, righteousness by faith, etc.

Paul did not invent allegorical interpretation. I did not say he did. I have even used Aesop as an example and he wrote before Paul was alive.

How could allegory make the bible meaningless when it clarifies it and both Jesus and Paul said it was necessary in order to understand it?
Jesus gives some symbols in the parable of the sower and Paul gives more when specifically stating that the story concerning Isaac and Ishmael were allegories. Also that the flood of Noah had to do with baptism as did the pillars of fire and cloud. And Jesus' speaking of the veil over Moses face.

The more we look at and keep our minds open to the allegorical nature of scripture the more we see it.
And the more we see it the more we see the same patterns in our own lives.

See that you build it after the pattern shown thee on the mount.

Bob

[David M]

Hi Rose

I see that Bob's reply giving us one difference has soon gone down a side trail and as much as Richard and Bob both make some very good points in their posts, which I appreciate, they have gone off topic.

Your topic is; "What is the difference between Moses and Osama Bin Laden?"

You have confirmed my suspicion (as I could see where this is leading) and you have said;

The morality of God, that's what it's all about!

I do not agree that this thread should be about the morality of God. We should really stick to question. I know I was guilty of some digression when leaping to the defence of Moses, but I could see where this thread was leading. If the morals of God is what this is all about, I suggest you start a thread on the subject so we can focus our thoughts on that subject instead of hijacking lots of different threads. The subject is bound to attract a lot visitors and contributers to the subject and give us all a chance to appreciate each others opinions and arguments and have them concentrated in one thread on the topic.

Cheow gave us a list of differences and I can see from your reply you make a could case for similarities and yet minimize any differences. If you were asked to produce a list of differences, you could easily answer "none" or else trivialize the differences to be of no importance. It is still good to know what others think the difference is between the two men.

Standing outside of my box, I can see how you are counteracting the differences proffered to make your case for the similarities, but that is not what this thread is about.

Just my observation.

Great chatting with you too Rose


David