Sexual Violence Against Women Promoted in Scripture

[David M]

Hello Richard

That doesn't help because the "warts" we are talking about are the horrible things the Bible attributes to God.

I can see from what I have written, "the warts and all", I should have said only relates to God's chosen nation; not to the inspired scriptures. One could have expected God's chosen nation to be spoken of in a wonderful terms and presentes us with what a perfect society should be like. One would think that they should have been better examples. We cannot accuse God of hiding anything. God wants us to learn from everything He has caused to be written whether by inspiration before, at or after the event. God has written all that we need to know, including getting to the bottom of we should learn and understand from this episoed involving the 32,000 virgins. God has recorded these events for our learning, I will look for the lessons before I stand in moral judgement of God about which I might not have all the facts or understand them if I do.

Say what? You can't "see" any such thing. I would never command genocide and institutionalize rape of women as "war booty." I would never condemn my own child to eternal hell for the "crime" of thinking independently. Why do you make such baseless claims? The morality of the Bible is primitive and much of it is and should be rejected by all humans with authentic morality. Can you find anything in the Bible that is higher than the morality I aspire to?

I have responded to Rose and I have to agree with others, this is not institutional rape in the episode we are considering. Once we examine every fact and question and possible answer and reason, I trust we might all reach the same conclusion. I expect you have or will read my response to Rose's last reply to me, so I will let this point rest for now.

Why does the Bible attribute things to God that are universally rejected as immoral? How can you say that his ways are "higher" when they obviously are so much lower?

What do you mean by "universally"? I do not agree with your statement, therefore I am not part of the universalism you are claiming here or that I recognise.

You seem to forget that God didn't have to command his people to murder everyone in the promised land. He had an infinity of other possible choices. Why then did he choose to fill teh world with violence and command his people to be brutal bloody baby killers? I've asked this question a does times and no one dares to touch it. WHY IS GOD SO ENAMOURED WITH VIOLENCE? He didn't have to do things that way. Why does God choose violence when there are so many other possible solutions?

Richard, please tell us of the alternative choices God had. Maybe you are thinking God could have brought a plague on all the people and killed them that way. Maybe God could have caused a localised flood and drowned them all. If God had cleared the land this way, are you agreeing this was morally acceptable? Are we now just having to come to terms with the reason God chose not to do it this way? The fact that another way was chosen, is teaching us a lot, especially the consequence of not folllowing God's instructions to the letter. It is the consequences of people's rebellion and not following instruction that God is having to deal with.

Yes, we all make assumptions - we have no choice. That's why we need to keep talking so we can clear things up and come to a mutual understanding.

That is why everyone should put forward all their questions and everyone should contribute their answers and put forward every possible reason and fact to be taken into account before a conclusion can be found. We all have different levels of understanding based on our years of studying God's word and it should benefit us all by contributing to and reading these threads.

You say that "God expects us to come to him on his terms, not ours." That's another example of something that is much worse than normal human morality. I don't demand my children to come to me on my terms. Loving parents want their children to come to them freely on their own terms. They delight in diversity and freedom. Loving parents would not rule over their children like dictators who enforce their authority with threats of horrific punishment. This is the problem with the Christian world view. It is modeled on the worst human social institution of an autocrat with absolute (and arbitrary) authority over the lives of all his subjects. He commands worship, and all who refuse are tortured to death. This is the view presented by Christians. They say "God loves you so much that if you refuse his commands he will condemn you forever to torture in the flames of hell!"

Do you never give your children rules Richard? Are you going to let your children run riot all the time? What sort of society can you expect if you do not set rules and boundaries for your children?Jesus as you know said; "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." We really must understand the implication of what Jesus is saying here and how it is to apply to our lives. Is this not setting the terms?

At least by your outrageous claim that God tortures everyone who does not worhip him, you make your opinion abundantly clear. The notion is outrageous as to be incredible and I trust others will see this for themselves as I do. I shall leave others to comment if they want.

I do hope this conversation will continue. We are dealing with essential issues.

I agree, we are dealing with essential issues. This episode we are discussing here has been brought up in other threads and so I do not want to appear to be going over the same old ground in what I say. I shall try to stay on topic as much as possible and not get side-tracked too much. If I miss responding to any of your replies it is either because we have come to a natural end, or I have not got round to replying and have been concentrating on other threads and taken too long to come back to the thread to add anything of further value. It is difficult to stay on topic without bringing in other essential issues, and I am sure that as we have been doing, we shall be covering the same ground in threads to come, so the conversations will continue; if not in this thread.

All the best to you Richard

David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Richard

I can see from what I have written, "the warts and all", I should have said only relates to God's chosen nation; not to the inspired scriptures. One could have expected God's chosen nation to be spoken of in a wonderful terms and presentes us with what a perfect society should be like. One would think that they should have been better examples. We cannot accuse God of hiding anything. God wants us to learn from everything He has caused to be written whether by inspiration before, at or after the event. God has written all that we need to know, including getting to the bottom of we should learn and understand from this episoed involving the 32,000 virgins. God has recorded these events for our learning, I will look for the lessons before I stand in moral judgement of God about which I might not have all the facts or understand them if I do.

Hey there David,

Your "warts and all" comment doesn't make sense because we are not talking about bad things the Israelites did.

We are talking about bad things the Bible says God did.

You say "I will look for the lessons before I stand in moral judgement of God." That is a big mistake. We are not talking about "judging God" but rather judging what a book (the Bible) says about God. It appears that you have chosen to believe whatever the Bible says. If the Bible says up is down and good is bad, you will either believe it or find a way to "interpret" it so that you don't have to admit it is wrong. How then can you know if the Bible is true? You do not judge it like you do everything else in life. If you can't admit errors it contains, then you have no way to judge if it is true or false or if it was designed by evil men seeking to control your mind. We know that wicked men have used the Bible for thousands of years to control the minds of others.

I have responded to Rose and I have to agree with others, this is not institutional rape in the episode we are considering. Once we examine every fact and question and possible answer and reason, I trust we might all reach the same conclusion. I expect you have or will read my response to Rose's last reply to me, so I will let this point rest for now.

I'll review your posts. I must have missed something because I have seen nothing that mitigates the fact that the virgins were raped and forced to bear children to the very men who murdered their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters and every person they ever loved.

What do you mean by "universally"? I do not agree with your statement, therefore I am not part of the universalism you are claiming here or that I recognise.

You are correct. Not all people reject genocide and rape. I stand corrected.

I should have said "Why does the Bible attribute things to God that are universally rejected as immoral by all moral people? "

Richard, please tell us of the alternative choices God had. Maybe you are thinking God could have brought a plague on all the people and killed them that way. Maybe God could have caused a localised flood and drowned them all. If God had cleared the land this way, are you agreeing this was morally acceptable? Are we now just having to come to terms with the reason God chose not to do it this way? The fact that another way was chosen, is teaching us a lot, especially the consequence of not folllowing God's instructions to the letter. It is the consequences of people's rebellion and not following instruction that God is having to deal with.

What alternatives did God have? That's easy! He could have opened their eyes to see the truth and taught them in the ways of love and righteousness. A very simple thing for a Sovereign God to do. Mere humans do things like that all the time. Open up a university. Elevate them from the primitive conditions that God put them in. Very simple stuff. How is it that you can't even imagine real goodness coming from God? This is what religion does to people. It shrinks their minds until they can't even imagine what a truly good God would be like.

Do you never give your children rules Richard? Are you going to let your children run riot all the time? What sort of society can you expect if you do not set rules and boundaries for your children?Jesus as you know said; "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." We really must understand the implication of what Jesus is saying here and how it is to apply to our lives. Is this not setting the terms?

Yes, of course there are rules. But I don't punish them for "coming to me on their own terms." That's a very strange concept that is common in Christian interpretations - the idea that it is wrong to be what we are, that it is wrong to be independent, free, and unique. That we all have to "come to God on his terms" or go to hell.

At least by your outrageous claim that God tortures everyone who does not worhip him, you make your opinion abundantly clear. The notion is outrageous as to be incredible and I trust others will see this for themselves as I do. I shall leave others to comment if they want.

Hey, that wasn't my claim! That's the claim of traditional Christianity.

It appears you are an annihilationist, is that correct?

Great chatting,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

When you say the Bible treats women unequally and unfairly, can you think of any situation where that statement is untrue? Can you not think of one situation where women have been treated equally and fairly. I expect if you look, you will find one. Also you will probably find examples where men have been treated unequally and unfairly.

That wouldn't help. A few examples of fairness would not refute all the examples of unfairness that prove the Bible does not accurately reflect the heart and mind of the true God.

This topic is really about the morality of God and the story of the 32,000 virgins is one aspect we can study the morality of God. While it is easy to get side-tracked by other comments introduced I shall stay on topic as best I can. What I am looking for in all of this is to understand why God instructs His people to act as He tells them. The answer is not clear cut and as I tried to explain to Richard and I probably did not explain very well. God is dealing with many situations at a time which have been brought about by man having free will. For example, God instructed His people to clear the promised land of all its inhabitants because they were all practicing idolatry. This may sound harsh, but God is doing what is best for His people.

I'm glad you are trying to stay on topic. Most Christians do everything they can to avoid this topic altogether.

As mentioned in an earlier post, it seems utterly wicked to order people to be genocidal murderers, no matter what your "reason" might be. It perverts, corrupts, and brutalizes a people to force them to murder thousands of men, women, and children. And the incorporation of 32,000 pagan virgins directly contradicts the reason for the genocide (idolatry) since those women would introduce their idolatry into the heart of Israel. Indeed, this is the reason Solomon fell - "his wives turned away his heart after other gods" (1 Kings 11:4). So now we see God allowing the soldiers to marry pagan women? This also explicitly contradicts God's command to not take their daughters as wives:

Deuteronomy 7:1 whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

All I see is confusion, contradiction, and the vile morality of a primitive, sexist, warlike people. Can you give me any reason why anyone would choose to believe these are the words of the true God?

All the best,

Richard

[Bob May]

Hi Rose,

Hi Bob,

That is preciously the problem. The Old Testament depicts Yahweh as a vengeful, cruel monster who commands families to be slaughtered and girls to be raped! So, how do I know that it is not his nature? It seems the scribes who penned the Old Testament thought it was Yahweh's nature, because the picture they painted of him was that of a tribal war god.

The depiction in the Old Testament of a wrathful God mirrors our own perception of a wrathful God. We are all held in bondage to a fear of death until we are not. Why is that? Because we have this idea that we reap what we sow and we must be perfect in order to escape that wrath. Nothing that defiles shall enter heaven, be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect etc.
This is reality for us and the reason that I started the thread "our interpretation of reality is reality."

If you think that I am wrong just try to convert a hell fire and damnation Christian to the idea that God does not hold our sin against us. We all start out as hell fire and damnation Christians because that speaks to our habit as human beings in physical bodies. We live in a world of cause and effect. We see it all around us. It computes.

God wants these things to puzzle us so that we will look deeper. Look at David. One of the worst sinners in the OT and yet he had a realization of God's Grace. "Blessed is the man who's sin is not counted against him." etc,.

So there arte those who did not judge by appearances in the OT (Most notably Abraham, the Father of that way of percieving the world) and we are their spiritual offspring. These found "Favour" or "Grace with God."

The awarenesses/consciousness opening in these specific people is a picture of our awareness changing. It is available to all right now. This moving from one dimension to the next, the awareness of Grace, colors EVERYTHING. Only a person who is very immature in this awareness (and sadly this happens in chuches quite often) can be talked into moving back into the Old awareness or "Under the Law."

Now, we know that when Jesus came along he updated God's image to be much more of a loving father type, but he was unwilling to let go of the Old Testament image of God, so we are stuck with a two-faced God. It can be quite a conundrum if one tries to reconcile the two by picking an choosing which face of God they want,...

Jesus was not unwilling to let go of the OT view of God.
When approached by those who took their pride or boasted in the law, he hit them with the law harder that they were doing to themselves. The law is black and white, not shades of grey. If you water it down it will not do what it is supposed to do which is lead us to Christ. It leads us to Christ by being all or nothing. If we break one law, we are guilty of all.
We all have to come to the conclusion that we cannot and have not and never will KEEP THE LAW.
So, the illusion of Law and a wrathful Father has to give way to a deeper truer understanding of God's true nature.

... but then the question arises, what compels you to believe the God of the Bible is actually a real entity? Why is the biblical God real and not Allah? I could just as easily allegorize the Koran and make Allah to be a god of total loving-kindness...what's the difference?

In a word, the Holy Spirit compels me. I've been visited by the angel Gabriel, the very next day I was pulled up into and ocean of blue/white liquid lightning that I would describe as to a continuous orgasm of pure joy and ecstacy. These two experiences were on consecutive days. Years later, again on two consecutive days I witnessed Jesus and my teacher standing directly in front of me (about 3 feet) looking into each other's eyes with respect and love holding hands as if they were shaking hands. (I went home immediately and opened my bible to where I knew I had last found myself in scripture years before and the very next chapter I read "He saw his God when he fled from his brother's face." Whis was exactly whast had just happened to me.) This experience was very similar to the transfiguration with my teacher represesenting the law and prophets. The very next day, while having conversation with my wife and good friend, the Coat of Many Colors fell on me.

Much later I saw that Joseph's description of the Pharoah's dream fit perfectly with these four experiences as a whole.
Ge 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

The visions given to me were doubled to me twice. And what shortly came to pass is the estabishment of the realization that we are "Sons and heirs with Christ"

I am pointing out a deeper level of reading scripture here than merely allegorical. It is when we find ourselves in the bible and the bible speaks to us directly... Paul refers to this as the "Oracles of God"
The very first thing that Jesus did after being baptised and coming out of the wilderness was to find himself in scripture and point it out to those in the synagogue.

So you can play at trying to make something in the Koran make sense by, as you say allegorizing it, but you will probably fail miserably. You will not be able to make it speak to your present situation.
And besides that I am allegorizing anything. I didn't make this up. The OT is Allegory.

This is the reason I cringe when people talk about tossing any part of the OT. Who knows which part is going to speak to that person at any given time.

There is so much conflict between what the Bible says, and what my heart and intuition tells me that I see no reason to try and salvage its god. The only reason I believed in the biblical god in the first place was because I was born in a country that held the Bible to be the Word of God, if I would have been born in a Muslim country I would have believed in the Koran.

There is conflict in your heart because you want to believe in a loving, Gracious Father and don't see him in the OT. You are not supposed to "salvage" the God of war and punishment in the OT you are supposed to be conflicted by the discrepancies and come to a decision.
You are confusing yourself with words. We define ourselves with our words both spoken and thought. This to a degree we cannot even comprehend.
Try Silence for a while. Be still and feel after God is perhaps you may find Him. I believe Paul said something like that.
Just, in silent prayer or meditation, reach up and pull on God with all of you energies. You are an artist. You are a feeler like me. Use that talent and stop confusing yourself with words.

For me the bottom line remains that I no longer feel the need to try and "clean up" Yahweh to make him fit my heartfelt and intuitive ideas of a divine being. I am free to draw from the Bible whatever wisdom it contains without the moral atrocities that cause me anguish.

Then go with your intuition and stop focusing on supposed atrocities. We will not live long enough to understand every word or story in scripture. It is not in any way expected of us or necessary. If that were so what chance would the illiterate or slow readers like me have??? None.
We are supposed to grow in our awareness/consciousnes of who and what God is. Jesus demonstrated it and made it available by God's direction and now it is up to us to allow ourselves to come to a realisation of what is now available.

Thanks for sharing you views with me,
Rose

My pleasure Rose, I hope I have been of some help,
Bob

[Gil]

Howdy Rose,

Originally Posted by Rose
Now, we know that when Jesus came along he updated God's image to be much more of a loving father type, but he was unwilling to let go of the Old Testament image of God, so we are stuck with a two-faced God. It can be quite a conundrum if one tries to reconcile the two by picking an choosing which face of God they want,...
Originally Posted by Rose
For me the bottom line remains that I no longer feel the need to try and "clean up" Yahweh to make him fit my heartfelt and intuitive ideas of a divine being. I am free to draw from the Bible whatever wisdom it contains without the moral atrocities that cause me anguish.


Gil > You don't have to ,Yahweh is dead .

Originally Posted by Rose
... but then the question arises, what compels you to believe the God of the Bible is actually a real entity? Why is the biblical God real and not Allah? I could just as easily allegorize the Koran and make Allah to be a god of total loving-kindness...what's the difference?


Gil > The world has been way more so in the past than now, attuned to the Gods.
There were plenty to go around then and there are still many around.
In the past they were tribal, national Gods of the Group, Mass as a whole and only effected the individual through a trickle down effect. The Organisms which were the whole Body of the mass, were more like ant nests or bee hives. The Whole was what was important and individuality was almost none existent.
Individuality was a long time coming.
What separates the Father of Jesus Christ as being the true God, was the ability of the Father to raise up his Son at the resurrection.
I've said it before but without the resurrection there is no Christianity.
Mohamed's body of flesh as well as all the founders of any man made religion's bodies are still in the grave. Only was Jesus Christ transfigured from a dead body to one made alive that was not still within the grave.
It is through Faith that the Gospel given to Paul was of Jesus Christ and that the witness of his disciples/apostles was indeed true. The Grave was empty.
Allah and the Great Spirit of the Indians may also be true relative to God in his natural relationship.
The followers of Allah are still into works.
Jesus Christ was the mouth piece of his Father. He spoke about Life , how to live it more abundantly and the way that man may attain eternal life.
Christianity holds to a dynamic relationship with God the Father.
The relationship of earthly religions is a static relationship. Bound by Laws, rules ,codes of conduct, ethics and morality as seen by man to make their God happy.
Christianity is Love based toward those of the BOC, and to all peoples as much as possible.
Other religions demand conversion.
You must not understand the Pauline BOC ,that requires Faith only without all the trappings of mans doctrines, traditions and work orientation. The BOC alludes to change. From the beast that primitive man was as he rose out of darkness and from his God of war, hate, jealousy and had the ear marks of a male chovenist pig on top of it all to the new man in Christ that is being transformed into the image and likeness of the Spirit of a loving God. One that has in fact given all of us the life we have within us and the hope of a continuing life when we drop these flesh bodies.

Gil
--------------

[Rose]

Howdy Rose,

Gil > You don't have to ,Yahweh is dead .

Gil > The world has been way more so in the past than now, attuned to the Gods.
There were plenty to go around then and there are still many around.
In the past they were tribal, national Gods of the Group, Mass as a whole and only effected the individual through a trickle down effect. The Organisms which were the whole Body of the mass, were more like ant nests or bee hives. The Whole was what was important and individuality was almost none existent.
Individuality was a long time coming.
What separates the Father of Jesus Christ as being the true God, was the ability of the Father to raise up his Son at the resurrection.
I've said it before but without the resurrection there is no Christianity.
Mohamed's body of flesh as well as all the founders of any man made religion's bodies are still in the grave. Only was Jesus Christ transfigured from a dead body to one made alive that was not still within the grave.
It is through Faith that the Gospel given to Paul was of Jesus Christ and that the witness of his disciples/apostles was indeed true. The Grave was empty.
Allah and the Great Spirit of the Indians may also be true relative to God in his natural relationship.
The followers of Allah are still into works.
Jesus Christ was the mouth piece of his Father. He spoke about Life , how to live it more abundantly and the way that man may attain eternal life.
Christianity holds to a dynamic relationship with God the Father.
The relationship of earthly religions is a static relationship. Bound by Laws, rules ,codes of conduct, ethics and morality as seen by man to make their God happy.
Christianity is Love based toward those of the BOC, and to all peoples as much as possible.
Other religions demand conversion.
You must not understand the Pauline BOC ,that requires Faith only without all the trappings of mans doctrines, traditions and work orientation. The BOC alludes to change. From the beast that primitive man was as he rose out of darkness and from his God of war, hate, jealousy and had the ear marks of a male chovenist pig on top of it all to the new man in Christ that is being transformed into the image and likeness of the Spirit of a loving God. One that has in fact given all of us the life we have within us and the hope of a continuing life when we drop these flesh bodies.

Gil
--------------

Hi Gil,

You said Yahweh is dead, but that is one of the problems with Christianity, its foundation is built on the rotting carcass of Yahweh. Jesus tried to turn the tribal war god of the Old Testament into a loving father figure, and it just doesn't work!

All the best,
Rose

[Rose]

Hello Rose


The Scriptures were written by men who were inspired to write these things down. I will just refer to 2 Timothy 3:16 as to the purpose of scripture (including the N.T. writings).
I have read the posts of everyone following your reply to me and as an observer, I can see elements of Truth in each post. There is a lot I disagree with the same as you do, but I am trying to get to the truth through all of this and while I do not always have an immediate answer to every question raised I am prepared to think about each question and to search out an answer that is essentially based on God's word.

When you say the Bible treats women unequally and unfairly, can you think of any situation where that statement is untrue? Can you not think of one situation where women have been treated equally and fairly. I expect if you look, you will find one. Also you will probably find examples where men have been treated unequally and unfairly.

Hi David,

Yes, the Scriptures were inspired by men, but where I differ from you is in where these men got their inspiration from. You say it is from a god named Yahweh, and I say it is an invention of their own male minds. The Bible is far too biased toward the male to come from a gender neutral god.

The Bible is filled with human rights violations for both male and female, but women have tended to suffer the most.

The Bible tells us that woman is subordinate to the man, their is a heirarchy, but this does not mean that the woman is inferior to the man or less worthy than man. In the purpose of God we are all individually responsible for our actions and we shall have to answer for ourselves at our Day of Judgement. It will not matter in what period or culture we lived, we are responsible for our own actions. Those who acted under instruction of God (invidually or nationally) I expect will stand blameless, but where they were not under instruction, they are responsible for their actions.

This topic is really about the morality of God and the story of the 32,000 virgins is one aspect we can study the morality of God. While it is easy to get side-tracked by other comments introduced I shall stay on topic as best I can. What I am looking for in all of this is to understand why God instructs His people to act as He tells them. The answer is not clear cut and as I tried to explain to Richard and I probably did not explain very well. God is dealing with many situations at a time which have been brought about by man having free will. For example, God instructed His people to clear the promised land of all its inhabitants because they were all practicing idolatry. This may sound harsh, but God is doing what is best for His people. Idolatry is an abomination to God and why not? You do not believe in God so why would I not expect you to agree with idolatry, if that is what you want to do. God has clearly stated that the practice of idolatry by anyone is an abomination to Him. I am not going to find excuses for the people that practiced it (at any time in history). Even God's chosen nation who should have been glowing examples of how to live according to His laws, when left to their own devices went back to practicing idolatry (the golden calf for example). Throughout their history, the Nation of Israel, we see were fickle, often following the practices of their king and we read of the kings who did right in the sight of God and those who did wrong.

Women were subordinate to men just like slaves were. The only worth women had was their virginity and ability to bear children and if they lost that then they lost their value!

The reason that idolatry was an abomination to God is because the men who desired power and wanted others to be subject to themselves, created a god after their image and likeness who commanded that everyone worship only himself.

I have to agree with the comments of Steve and others; God did not command the Israelites to rape the women. You are interpreting what took place as rape. I expect some indivinuals did rape (everyone is free to act as they want) and if it was found that some soldiers committed rape they would be punished under the law. The fact that we do not have all the detail does not mean we should ignore this. That is why, whether something is mentioned or not, we have to explore every possible act and intention and whay might have taken place and gone unreported. We have to put forward every question and give every possible answer to come to a correct decision. God has caused to be written enough that we should know about.

Of course it was rape, how can you say otherwise! Imagine a 13 year old girl who just witnessed her family being slaughtered by the very Hebrew soldier that she is being given to for a wife. Do you really think she would willingly bear his children? If it's not willing it's rape! That is what I mean about having to harden your heart in order to justify the horrendous actions of God.

You can say my statement is glib and that I have no compassion or empathy , I do not expect others to entirely agree with your opinion; the same way as they do not agree with your totally biassed opinion of what took place concerning the 32,000 virgins. As I said, the original instruction was to utterly destroy the people living in the land promised to the Children of Israel. If they had obeyed the situation we are talking about now would never have took place. The killing of all the people in the land they were to posess does sound harsh. I also believe in the infinite mercy of God to save the innocent from etenal death. I leave all judgemet to God and will not limit God to who He allows to be in the kingdom. All I am told is that as God will judge the good and the bad, and there will be many who will not live to see the kingdom of God which is coming. We must first have regard to our own actions and let "the dead bury the dead" as Jesus said.
I shall ask is this question; what would have happened to these 32,000 virgins if the slaughter had not taken place? My answer is; I expect they would have practiced idolatry the same as their parents and peers. In this way, they would have come under the same judgement as anyone else that practiced idolatry. As they were spared and had the opportunity to live with the Israelites they had the opportunity to lead a much better life; the same as God's people had the opportunity to lead a better life and be blessed for so doing. In practice, God's people did not always lead the better life they were supposed to.

That's what's so confusing...on one hand God commands that all the idol worshiping pagans be slaughtered and on the other hand he says it's okay to keep the virgin women for themselves.

So why does God have such a big ego that he can't stand for people to worship anything, or anyone other than himself? Is God such a megalomaniac that he is willing to have women and children slaughtered who don't worship him? Well, that's what it seems like.

Another point, while accepting the Children of Israel did not lead the perfect lives they were supposed to, on a whole, the nation was better for practicing the laws given to them by God. Consider the children of these women saved, their childred would have had a much better life and better prospects for the future, than if they had been born into the idolatrous society in which they had lived. Considering it was the practice to offer infants as a sacrifice to these false gods, I cannot see what advantage these women had by remaining alive to participate in idolatry. How you can say that by being taken captive into a society that gave these women better prospects, it was not compassionate. I do empathise with people, but you are saying I should have empathy with those who practice idolatry and whether they be virgins or otherwise makes no difference. Because they are sexual virgins does not make them idolatrous virgins. These women were given the opportunity to assimilate into a better society overall and that has to begood. I understand their anguish and hurt and pain at seeing their family slaughtered, but in time, and as the old adage goes, "time heals", maybe they would come to understand the error of their parents and peers and their nation as a whole. As I say, I am trying to get a fair balance and make sense of all this.

Do you really think that time is going to make the fact that her family was slaughtered and she was raped go away?

Sorry Rose, I can only see you are making gross assumptions again as others are seeing you making. It is true that men have lustful desires; the same as women have lustful desires but more so in men than women perhaps. We generalize but we should not forget that individually we are accountable for our own actions over which we should exercise control and that is not to say this is easier said than done. It is extremely difficult and thanks be to Jesus for proving it can be done and through Jesus, the Christ, we can be given the victory, just as Jesus was victorious in defeating the devil that was his nature, but which he overcame.
Again Rose, you are accusing me of being blind and not being able to handle the truth. That I can level the same against you and so I let others reading this decide who is nearer to understanding the Truth of God's word. I know you are not accusing me of evil doing, all I am doing is having a good good conversation based on my understanding of God's word which I have gained over many years and it does not matter if I am accused of less than evil doings, for the same sentiment applies as stated in the following quote;
1 Peter 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

I can handle it!!

All the best to you Rose.

David


.

You know that any Christian reading this is going to side with you...they have to! As long as a person is locked inside their religious box there is no way to see any other perspective, so the only choice they are left with is defending an image that Bronze Age man called "God" no matter how horrific he may be!

One thing about truth is that it will remain standing when everything else has fallen...

All the best,
Rose

[David M]

Hello Rose

Hi David,

Yes, the Scriptures were inspired by men, but where I differ from you is in where these men got their inspiration from. You say it is from a god named Yahweh, and I say it is an invention of their own male minds. The Bible is far too biased toward the male to come from a gender neutral god.

There is a big problem and gulf between us if you do not believe God has inspired the Scriptures from which we have our Bibles today. I would not waste my time trying to make sense of this if I had not already seen enough evidence to support the existence of God and that what God has revealed is true. I would not waste my time studying a book that was not inspired by God and is a work of fiction by man. There is too much harmony within the scriptures to make it a work of man considering the many books written over the centuries it took to write. This is one reason why I believe and wil continue to look for the answers to satisfactorily explain the episode of the 32,000 virgins that is main hub of this post.

The Bible is filled with human rights violations for both male and female, but women have tended to suffer the most.

Maybe you are right, women might have suffered more, but do yo have any statistics to back up what you say? I will agree with you here, but on other matters I will continue to disagree.

Women were subordinate to men just like slaves were. The only worth women had was their virginity and ability to bear children and if they lost that then they lost their value!

I agree, women can be considered so and treated badly by man, but you should not say, women are treated any less than man by God. Again I say, everyone is accountable as individuals. God is saving women as much as He is saving men. God has saved men and women down the ages. There could be many women, who though not mentioned in the Bible, have been saved. We do not know, it would not surprise me if women who are generally the less aggressive than men and have motherly instincts instead of the war-like aggression of men, would be judged more acceptable and more women made it to the kingdom. There is a lot of speculation in all this and we are in no position to judge. We cannot judge individuals based on what the nation they belonged to did. We have to separate individual responsibility from national responsibility.

The reason that idolatry was an abomination to God is because the men who desired power and wanted others to be subject to themselves, created a god after their image and likeness who commanded that everyone worship only himself.

It is not always men-based, what about Diana of the Ephesians and other godesses? I agree, it is largely male orientated but woman practiced idolatry and supported it, and that is why Solomon's wives became a snare to Solomon turning him away from God.

Of course it was rape, how can you say otherwise! Imagine a 13 year old girl who just witnessed her family being slaughtered by the very Hebrew soldier that she is being given to for a wife. Do you really think she would willingly bear his children? If it's not willing it's rape! That is what I mean about having to harden your heart in order to justify the horrendous actions of God.

I have argued it is not mass rape as you want to intransigently keep calling it. I know that in any group not everyone acts the same. There are always a few rebels who do not conform and I accept that some soldiers might have disobeyed and did as you say. That was not their brief.
We heard of the attrocities committed by both British and American soldiers in Iraq which each govenment of the respective countries did not condone the actions once they came to light. There are always rebels and corrupt individuals in any group, even Jesus took one on knowingly. We must understand all the lessons to be learnt from what we read in the Bible. This is why there has not been a cover up and God has put this on record, so we have to try and see what it is God is really telling us. We should not impress our individual imperfect human thinking on these matters, that is why no one of us is going to come up with the right answer, but collectively, if we listen to all the arguments, we might.

That's what's so confusing...on one hand God commands that all the idol worshiping pagans be slaughtered and on the other hand he says it's okay to keep the virgin women for themselves.

God gave the command knowing what was in the best interest for His people. The people chose not to obey His instruction and therefore the consequences followed of which this episode is one . If the Israelites had followed the instruction to the letter, we would not be talking about this episode of the 32,000 virgins. You have to blame man in the first instance for disobedience.

So why does God have such a big ego that he can't stand for people to worship anything, or anyone other than himself? Is God such a megalomaniac that he is willing to have women and children slaughtered who don't worship him? Well, that's what it seems like.

You are bringing God down to human level in your reasoning and this is wrong. God the creator expects recognition and worship. I can see you do not want to give God credit for the beauty He has created on this planet and you will not recognize the destruction and evil man has brought on himself (given the freedom God gave man to do it) is all of man's making. You have a choice Rose and I can see which path you are taking.

Do you really think that time is going to make the fact that her family was slaughtered and she was raped go away?

A month is a relatively short time, but yes in time, though I have to consider that many might not be able to forget of forgive. It is difficult for any of us on this forum to get into the mind of the people of that time. Their culture and way of thinking would be a lot different to ours. Brutal armed combat was the style of the day. We see the tribal warfare that goes on in Africa today, though in these times the tribes manage to get guns. I am not sure of all the facts, but you will find accounts of genocide that has taken place in Africa in the last decade or so that largely went unreported at the time. I know there are Jews who cannot forget the holocaust and remain bitter against the Germans, but in all these situations we cannot tar people with the same brush. I do not have the statistics, all I can say is; with a large group of people you have a wide spectrum to choose from.

You know that any Christian reading this is going to side with you...they have to! As long as a person is locked inside their religious box there is no way to see any other perspective, so the only choice they are left with is defending an image that Bronze Age man called "God" no matter how horrific he may be!

I disagree with lots of (so-called) Christians over doctrines so I do not expect (so-called) Christians to agree with my understanding. Getting outside our locked boxes is difficult, I do try and I can see other people's point of view, and I reach my own conclusions. Maybe the gap between our difference of thought is reducing slightly. I am trying somehow to find a way to make you think outside your box. That is why when in my box I am considering what you are saying. This is why I am trying to look at this by trying to raise all possible questions and consider all possible answers. We have to take this in bite size chunks instead of trying to eat the whole cake in one mouthful.

One thing about truth is that it will remain standing when everything else has fallen...

We can agree on this Rose.

Well, we have some agreement between us, but not enough at present to prevent us from ending up at stalemate which is what I expect will happen soon.

All the best,

David

[David M]

Hi Richard

Hey there David,

You say "I will look for the lessons before I stand in moral judgement of God." That is a big mistake. We are not talking about "judging God" but rather judging what a book (the Bible) says about God. It appears that you have chosen to believe whatever the Bible says. If the Bible says up is down and good is bad, you will either believe it or find a way to "interpret" it so that you don't have to admit it is wrong. How then can you know if the Bible is true? You do not judge it like you do everything else in life. If you can't admit errors it contains, then you have no way to judge if it is true or false or if it was designed by evil men seeking to control your mind. We know that wicked men have used the Bible for thousands of years to control the minds of others

.
I won't assume you are thinking the same as Rose, but as she does not believe the Scriptures have been inspired by God, we have a big problem and gulf between us. There is not much point discussing anything in the Bible if we do not agree from this perspective that the Bible we have today has come from the inspired writings of God. You and I are always going to be at loggerheads because we cannot agree on this fundamental principle that the Bible is the inspired word of God. We have no common ground on which to base our argument. My only reason to continue to discuss this is that you might get to understand more than you know now, and my trying to answer your questions might help someone else following this thread come to understand God's word better. The danger is that we will reach an impass where neither of us is going to concede any change of thought so as to move the discussion on.
I will argue my understanding of scripture using scripture to provide the answers; I will not quote the works of man. It is difficult enough arguing from the scriptures so why should I even consider referring to anything that is a fabrication of man. I know that the Scriptures (the Bible) have been perverted by man for man's own selfishness and greed. This is the reason we have so many so-called Christian religions today and on this we agree.

What alternatives did God have? That's easy! He could have opened their eyes to see the truth and taught them in the ways of love and righteousness. A very simple thing for a Sovereign God to do. Mere humans do things like that all the time. Open up a university. Elevate them from the primitive conditions that God put them in. Very simple stuff. How is it that you can't even imagine real goodness coming from God? This is what religion does to people. It shrinks their minds until they can't even imagine what a truly good God would be like

.
The alternative you give is what God is doing now. God is telling us this in His word now, but who listens? We have the example of Jesus to follow, but does this make any difference? People are rejecting the teaching of Jesus, so we can hardly expect those people to accept the lessons to be learnt from the Old Testament. The culture and mentality of the period we are considering is far different to that in which we live now. I do not know what I would have thought if I had lived in those times. I have to understand it from the perspective that God has revealed it to me through His word. The stories of wars and fightings would have been known and passed from one generation to another. Nations would have heard about the fightings of other nations. In fact, the stories of God fighting for Israel had gone before them. This is the level at which God is dealing; not 21st centuary intellectual thinking and all the problems that brings with it.
Talking of "opening their eyes", the Jews have a veil over their eyes even now, which is why they did not recognize Jesus when they crucified him and why the Jews still do not recognize Jesus today and remain fixed to their ancient scriptures. The time is coming when the veil will be lifted, for there has to come a time when the Jews will have to be saved from a situation in which there is no way out for them. When Jesus returns to save them after their cries to God for help have been heard and God answers them, then they will come to see (the veil being lifted) that Jesus was the one they crucified all those years ago. This is part of the big picture few are seeing at the moment.

Yes, of course there are rules. But I don't punish them for "coming to me on their own terms." That's a very strange concept that is common in Christian interpretations - the idea that it is wrong to be what we are, that it is wrong to be independent, free, and unique. That we all have to "come to God on his terms" or go to hell.

God's punishment is for disobedience; not for coming up with their a set of their own terms. You use a strange turn of phrase "coming to me on their own terms"; this is not the same as coming to you on your terms. Have you never had to correct your child for disobeying you? It does not matter to God if we are wrong and and we want to do our own thing, that is our choice, it just means that at the time of judgement, those who do their own thing will not make the grade. If you want to go to the grave, that is your choice.
Your arguments appear to be based on purely human reasoning which is imperfect. You do not accept God's thoughts are far superior to your own, and that God has a far more complex situation to deal with than you can begin to imagine in bringing about His purpose. God is teaching us lessons in all that He has caused to be written, and if you are not even prepared to look for the lessons, I see little point in continuing. The Old Testament and the Law of Moses as Paul writes was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. The Old Testament and Law of Moses whilst superceded, is important to understand the New Testament. Human nature has not changed in 6,000 years which is surprising if support Evolution (but let us not go there now). Human nature is the same now as it was then, so there are lessons to be learnt from the Old Testament.
You sound as intransigent as Rose in not entertaining that you are not 100% correct in saying this was mass rape. Others have put forward questions in this thread that should be considered; for example what if the girls did not want to marry and have sex, why can you not see that this could be the same as "finding no delight in her". These phrases leave a lot open for speculation and which we can only surmize. Therefore, none of us can be 100% certain of what we think; only certain about those things that are said without any ambiguity like God saying "He is One and there is no one beside him", but then we cannot even agree on such an unambiguous statement.

It appears you are an annihilationist, is that correct?

No, if anything I have to abide by the teaching of Jesus and be a pacifist. I have to overcome any inate desire to want to do or support violence.
Regarding wars and fighting in the Bible, I am reading the same as you and hearing what God wants to tell me. Not having given this episode of the 32,000 virgins any attention in the past, I am studying it now and drawing my own conclusions from what I read. I should not be thought of as an annihilatist just because I quote what the Bible says.

Let's hope we do not reach an impass too soon.

All the best Richard.

David

[David M]

Hi Richard

That wouldn't help. A few examples of fairness would not refute all the examples of unfairness that prove the Bible does not accurately reflect the heart and mind of the true God.

It probably does not help until you can see one example of fairness. You are open minded only to a degree that you are blinded by your intransigence to consider anything that is not fitting in with your way of thinking. I am conceding that some rape could have taken place even if that was not the brief given to the soldiers. I am not seeing the Israelites through rose-colored spectacles (no reference to Rose intended). Human nature being what it is, we have to allow for some rebels and non-conformists and those who set out to do evil. Some things can remain hard to explain away, but having no good explanation does not have to exclude obvious cases of fairness. One case of fairness does not paint the completely black image of the Bible or God as you are doing. If the Bible is the work of man and not written under the inspiration of God, then I am wasting my time studying the Bible and arguing/discussing on this forum. Fortunately, I am convinced the Bible is the inspired word of God and that the harmony throughout is one evidence for believing it. It is this harmony I have to search for if I have difficulty over a few passages; this is not an excuse to dismiss the rest. I will wait till my study brings me to a conclusion which is in harmony.

I'm glad you are trying to stay on topic. Most Christians do everything they can to avoid this topic altogether.

Unfortunately, most Christians are anything but... The God of the Bible and the Jesus of the Bible is not known and misunderstood by most. I am not saying that the contributors to this forum are not true Christians, just that the majority proclaiming to be Christians are not. It is the same when you ask anyone why they claim to be of one religion or another, it is generally because they associate themselves with the religion of their parents or to their culture. Most do not study the religion for themselves. The majority of so-called Christians will therefore not be able to debate these matters based on the Bible.

As mentioned in an earlier post, it seems utterly wicked to order people to be genocidal murderers, no matter what your "reason" might be.

Humanly speaking it does sound wicked, I agree, but I have to look for reasons above human thinking. We have to look for the bigger picture not the microscale we are looking at. It is wicked in one sense for the people on the receiving end and yet is for the benefit of the people who are instructed to carry out slaughter. You have to ask questions like, what would have become of the people practicing idolatry? Are you a universalist who will say that these people should be allowed into the kingdom of God to come? God has said that such people he hates and they will not enter into His Glory that will one day fill the earth. These idolatrous nations are reprobates and God gives up on. Why flog a dead horse, so to speak?

It perverts, corrupts, and brutalizes a people to force them to murder thousands of men, women, and children.

That is your opinion and not fact. The Israelites were operating under orders, they were not free to go and murder anyone they chose to, and if they had, they would have been severly punished. They were punished as we know for their times of disobedience. God corrects through punishment, God did not spare the rod when it came to correcting His people.
The Jews were reminded to keep certain feasts such as the passover and we know what a brutal time that appears to be. The plagues were hard lessons for the Egyptians and the Israelites were told to keep the feast of the Passover for a memorial of how God delivered them from Egypt. God was not teaching His people to be violent and brutal as you are suggesting. However, it was expedient that the people learnt to obey, even to the extent of destroying of the people in the Promised Land to get rid of all idolatry. They did not do what God commanded and they did not utterly destroy the people, but saved some. I expect you will argue that was a noble thing for the Israelites to do. I say you have to examine the motives of why they did it and then it would not appear so noble. We are witnessing the consequences of their failing to act according to God's command. As I explained to Rose, we are living in a different age now, and God was dealing with a people whose thinking and culture were on a different level to ours. God could have cleared the land for them but you would say that was immoral of God, and now you want God to teach the people the way He is teaching us now. I doubt that way would have worked in the way you think it should in that age. As it was, had God's people obeyed His instruction and cleared the land by a series of wars of which we might not have never had any detail, that would have been the end of the matter. As it is, we are discussing so called attrocities because the people failed in their task and had been disobedient in the first place. In the end, the question has to come down to where you lay the blame for what we are now discussing now, and the anwer has to be; the blame rests on Israel. God is dealing with a complex situation about which you or I have no chance of sorting out had we lived then to sort it out. How do you keep in control all the nations? History shows what a complex situation this all is, and yet God declares He rules in the kingdoms of men. This bigger picture is not being recognized and God is not credited for staying in control to bring about His purpose. It might sound brutally harsh of me, but God is saving the few people from all generations (by comparison to the billions ever lived) who will be faithful to Him and who believe. Those, who do not, will simply perish. This is a consistent message from God from Genesis to Revelation. You have to make your choice in which camp you want to be. If you want to make hurdles for yourself and remain blind to the lessons God is teaching us, that is your choice.

And the incorporation of 32,000 pagan virgins directly contradicts the reason for the genocide (idolatry) since those women would introduce their idolatry into the heart of Israel.Indeed, this is the reason Solomon fell - "his wives turned away his heart after other gods" (1 Kings 11:4). So now we see God allowing the soldiers to marry pagan women? This also explicitly contradicts God's command to not take their daughters as wives:

Deuteronomy 7:1 whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

You are making a sweeping assumption though I agree you could be partly right. We have more than one agenda to think of. I forget who mentioned the fact that there was a crisis due to the shortage of women. I was not aware of this and for the moment, I hear what is said, though I am in position to agree or disagree. This shows that there might be more to this story than first meets the eye. I have pointed out how the spoils of war were divided and not all 32,000 virgins were given over to the soldiers. You keep on assuming these girls were pounced on and raped without any regard to any other way taking place. Just because God ordered His people to slaugter as they did, does not automatically make them brutal towards these girls who were saved. As I tried to explain to Rose, you have to consider what would become of these girls and their children if they had lived normally in their own country and people. They lived in jeopardy of their children being offered as child sacrifices. Now are you saying the Israelites are a worse people than these, to whom slaughter of other people would not have been on their conscience?
Yes, the girls could have been a snare, but they were young enough perhaps to be taught God's ways by the Israelites. This is part way to going towards your solution. Maybe these girls were not practicing idolaters in the way Solomon's wives were. Once again, we surmize a lot as we have to given that the facts are sketchy and we have to fill in the blanks. That is why with so much of the Bible to read, we can often fill in the blanks by reading of other accounts that either relate to or bear a similarity to the events we are considering. I would not give up so easily and wrest scripture as you appear to be doing.

All I see is confusion, contradiction, and the vile morality of a primitive, sexist, warlike people. Can you give me any reason why anyone would choose to believe these are the words of the true God?

What you are saying best describes the nations surrounding Israel at that time. What's so different today we might argue? With the exception of Israel, no other nation had God as their leader and what I have mentioned elsewhere to you is that the nation was only chosen because of Abraham. The people later rebelled and wanted a king who they could see, hence Saul was chosen. OK, we are talking now in the time of Moses even before the time of the Judges to follow and the kings to follow after them, but even now, we see Abraham's descendants not much better than the nations around them and how easily Israel was influenced by the nations around them. The example of the Golden Calf which the people made when Moses went away from them for a while shows the influence that was still among them. It was only by giving God's chosen race a law, and a framework to live by would they be examples and witnesses for God. The Nation of Israel has always been a witness for God, good times and bad. I have mentioned "the warts" and God does not portray His chosen people in a good light, God is exposing their weakness and their failings (their warts). As individuals, the Israelites were no better than anyone else. God was instructing them through His law and some of the laws regarding health were millenia before their time. Our hospitals have been failing basic hygiene methods that were written into their laws.
This is why there are lessons to be learnt from all that God has caused to be written and it does not matter if you do not want to find the lessons, because others can. To those who search and knock the door is opened and to them the truth will be revealed. To them will all the promises of the kingdom to come be granted. Do not give up searching for the lessons.

All the best,

David