Google Ads

Google Ads

Bible Wheel Book

Google Ads

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 63
  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Not from this world...from the other side
    Posts
    3,187
    [QUOTE=Rose;41850]
    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post

    Hi Cheow,

    I have one question for you...If it was permissible under God's moral law for Hebrew soldiers to rape women in times of war to pass on their genes, is it still permissible under God's moral law for soldiers to do that, or do you think God's moral laws have changed? Just askin'

    All the best,
    Rose
    I have said before rape is not in the minds of the Israelis, if it is so might as well keep mature and married women, young men and children for sex.

    It was not rape that God ordered but marriage. In olden times, they were allowed to have many wives. If rape is in their minds, it makes no sense to talk about marrying the women to be their wives that they "raped":

    Deuteronomy 21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; 13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled [fucked] her.

    Judges 21:11-12 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan…..14) And Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them wives which they had saved alive of the women of Jabesh-Gilead: and yet so they sufficed them not….20) Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards; And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.

    There is nothing in those 2 passages that talked about the captured women being raped but given as wives. Where in the Bible is it stated that those women were raped by the Israelites? In fact there is no need to raped them as it is so easy to divorce them at will...."married, use and discard" This is clearly stated in verse 14:

    14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled [fucked] her.

    Onr may think that this was cruel on the part of the men who "married, use and discard" the women at will, But we must understand this was war time where survuival is unpredictable at any time and such practices were practised also in modern times whereby if a man is killed in war, the wife has the right to marry another person and if that person is also killed in war, the woman can continue to re-marry another and so on. Isn't it cruel not to let the woman marry another man for security, procreation or companionship if her husband was killed in war? Same goes with the husband whose wife was killed in war. Remember, this is wartime.

    Hope this helps.

    God Blessings to all.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,185
    [QUOTE=CWH;41854]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post

    I have said before rape is not in the minds of the Israelis, if it is so might as well keep mature and married women, young men and children for sex.

    It was not rape that God ordered but marriage. In olden times, they were allowed to have many wives. If rape is in their minds, it makes no sense to talk about marrying the women to be their wives that they "raped":

    Deuteronomy 21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; 13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled [fucked] her.
    All you are doing Cheow is making excuses for Yahweh's blatant immorality and human rights violations. Yes, it's obvious that the men desired the beautiful virgin women for wives, but did you ever stop and think if the women wanted to be the wives of the men who just slaughtered their families? The definition of rape is to take by force, and you can be sure those women did not willingly become wives of men who just slaughtered their families! Have you no compassion or empathy Cheow!

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post

    Judges 21:11-12 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan…..14) And Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them wives which they had saved alive of the women of Jabesh-Gilead: and yet so they sufficed them not….20) Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards; And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.

    There is nothing in those 2 passages that talked about the captured women being raped but given as wives.
    Where in the Bible is it stated that those women were raped by the Israelites? In fact there is no need to raped them as it is so easy to divorce them at will...."married, use and discard" This is clearly stated in verse 14:

    14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled [fucked] her.
    What are you talking about? Of course those women were being raped! Read the verses: it says that the men hid and waited in the vineyards till the young virgins came to dance and then they jumped out and captured them and "took" them as wives. All a man had to do in biblical time to be married was to have sex with a woman and then she became his wife, and just because a woman is called a wife does not mean she was not raped.

    Your words totally blow my mind! How can you make excuses for men raping women? That is such a gross violation of human rights and you are supporting it. So, I suppose you would apply the same moral standard to soldiers who rape women today?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Onr may think that this was cruel on the part of the men who "married, use and discard" the women at will, But we must understand this was war time where survuival is unpredictable at any time and such practices were practised also in modern times whereby if a man is killed in war, the wife has the right to marry another person and if that person is also killed in war, the woman can continue to re-marry another and so on. Isn't it cruel not to let the woman marry another man for security, procreation or companionship if her husband was killed in war? Same goes with the husband whose wife was killed in war. Remember, this is wartime.

    Hope this helps.

    God Blessings to all.
    It's plain and simple Cheow...the Bible promotes and condones all manner of human rights violations, including sexual violations against women, and you make excuses why it's all okay because the men needed wives! Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    756

    Sexual Violence Against Women Promoted in Scripture

    Hi Rose,

    In this post I'm addressing only Deuteronomy 21.

    The case of the Benjamites is somewhat different, in that all those being taken into marriage were of Israel, and yet, like in Numbers 31, the deepest issue is the necessary management of the effects of idolatrous practices in the era before the blood of Christ had been shed. (You do understand that, don't you?) (God will have no truck with idolatry. He made this abundantly clear in Deuteronomy 13.)

    Deuteronomy 21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; {pare: or, suffer to grow: Heb. make, or, dress} 13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

    This is not sexual violence. This is God telling a man how to behave himself appropriately - by holding back in the first instance. This isn't rape either.

    Being a victim of a war, a woman could indeed have been raped by soldiers, but Yahweh forbids this, thereby assaying to prevent rape (a form of fornication - idolatry in practice). He - more than we - understands how women are made, and what is good for a woman.

    I don't understand how can you object to the order which God brings to the scenario He thus acknowledged to Moses, except that you willingly ignore all other information in scripture which cover His provisions for a woman's most fulfilled role, and, her real spiritual needs; in this case, to be provided for with intimate love and shelter, food and clothes, and, brought into and under the blessings of the commonwealth of Israel.

    You object to these blessings for a woman now bereft of paternal protection and provision? You think you sound reasonable in this?

    I mean, isn't a man who genuinely fancies a woman, more likely to care for her as his own flesh? .... as Rahab, also from an idolatrous culture, was given a fresh start under Yahweh's provisions, enabled to become a respectable wife and mother? What is wrong with this outcome?

    By these Yahweh shows Himself righteous - more righteous than unrestrained natural men and women. God is seriously protecting His investment!

    Deuteronomy 16:20
    That which is altogether just shalt thou follow
    , that thou mayest live, and inherit the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.


    The thing which catches my eye and heart in Deuteronomy 21 is that God knows He has made man/men to be God-like. That was the original plan. God has put in males a capability and instinct to search for a special 'one woman' on whom to set his love/heart; whom to win for himself. The privilege of being the 'one' on whom God had set His heart seems frequently to have been lost on Israel, but the principle remains.

    Ezekiel 16:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, 3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity [is] of the land of Canaan; thy father [was] an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite. {birth: Heb. cutting out, or, habitation} 4 And [as for] thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple [thee]; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all. {to supple...: or, when I looked upon thee} 5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born. 6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee [when thou wast] in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee [when thou wast] in thy blood, Live. {polluted: or, trodden under foot}

    7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: [thy] breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou [wast] naked and bare
    . {caused...: Heb. made thee a million} {excellent...: Heb. ornament of ornaments} 8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time [was] the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine. 9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil. {blood: Heb. bloods} 10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. 11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. 12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. {forehead: Heb. nose} 13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment [was of] fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. 14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it [was] perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.


    1 John 4:19
    We love him, because he first loved us
    .


    Real sexual violence is defined by the idolatries described Leviticus 18 (below), Leviticus 19:29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness. {prostitute: Heb. profane} and, 2 Samuel 13:14 Howbeit he [Amnon] would not hearken unto her [Tamar his sister's] voice: but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her.

    Matthew 5:28
    But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    He whose eyes/heart have wandered has done sexual violence to his marriage by betraying the intimacy of the faithful wife who surrendered to his desire. (Of course this applies just as much to the woman who allows herself to be captivated by a man other than her husband, although in some cases the other man is the more responsible party. Nevertheless, hopefully, a faithful wife can find the 'no' she should proffer.)


    Leviticus 18
    3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances...

    5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I [am] the LORD.

    6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover [their] nakedness: I [am] the LORD. {near...: Heb. remainder of his flesh} 7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she [is] thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it [is] thy father's nakedness. 9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, [whether she be] born at home, or born abroad, [even] their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, [even] their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs [is] thine own nakedness. 11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she [is] thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she [is] thy father's near kinswoman. 13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she [is] thy mother's near kinswoman. 14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she [is] thine aunt. 15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she [is] thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it [is] thy brother's nakedness.

    17
    Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; [for] they [are] her near kinswomen: it [is] wickedness. 18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex [her], to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life [time]. {a wife...: or, one wife to another} 19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness. 20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through [the fire] to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I [am] the LORD. {Molech: Gr. Moloch} 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it [is] confusion.


    Universally, a child (whether male or female) is already 'one with' its parents. This applies to the woman who is a prisoner of war as much as a daughter of Abraham in Israel, and, to males. The woman is freed from oneness with parents to become one with a husband, just as a man is free to leave his father and his mother, that he may
    'cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh' (Gen 2 end and Matthew 19:5, 6).

    Thus adult women (in Israel) were theoretically protected by 'one with their man' status, and children, by 'one with their parents' status. If not part of Israel, all were prey to the outworkings of idolatry, neither protected by parents, (age - reference to Molech), nor gender.

    1 Kings 14:24
    And there were also sodomites in the land: [and] they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

    Thanks to Adam's disobedience, us girls.... us descendants of Eve.... were awarded four new operating instructions by which to experience our greatest fulfilment:
    Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. {to thy...: or, subject to thy husband}

    No matter how these are sliced, the advantage falls to the woman whose husband has taken Christ as his Head, whom she can genuinely reverence and experience being cherished and nourished by him (as he does his own body).... nevertheless, remembering that she is as fallen as Adam, both, are going to feel the pains of our first birth while it is challenged to produce godlier behaviour, through the provisions of the New Covenant.

    1 Peter 2:20 For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously... 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear. 3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.


    The more that women try to be like men, the further they are from being God-like; just as the more that men abdicate their leadership responsibilities under God, the further they are from being God-like. It's little wonder people are unhappy, or, that what happiness they find in their disobedience from God's newer operating instructions, serves to magnify to them the disadvantages of ungodliness.


    God brings sanctions to bear on those who reject Christ's death on the cross for us all - by which all that is wrong can be addressed.

    It's disingenuous or misguided to complain against God's reactions to mankind's failures, when there would be none if we'd obeyed Him in the first place.

    Can't you see that the problem doesn't lie with God originally; it lies with mankind's heart being continuously now in rejection of Him?









    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,185
    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Rose,

    In this post I'm addressing only Deuteronomy 21.

    The case of the Benjamites is somewhat different, in that all those being taken into marriage were of Israel, and yet, like in Numbers 31, the deepest issue is the necessary management of the effects of idolatrous practices in the era before the blood of Christ had been shed. (You do understand that, don't you?) (God will have no truck with idolatry. He made this abundantly clear in Deuteronomy 13.)

    Deuteronomy 21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; {pare: or, suffer to grow: Heb. make, or, dress} 13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

    This is not sexual violence. This is God telling a man how to behave himself appropriately - by holding back in the first instance. This isn't rape either.

    Being a victim of a war, a woman could indeed have been raped by soldiers, but Yahweh forbids this, thereby assaying to prevent rape (a form of fornication - idolatry in practice). He - more than we - understands how women are made, and what is good for a woman.
    Hi Charisma,

    Thank you for taking time to respond to my post.

    What do you mean it isn't sexual violence, or rape? It most certainly is! Just because a man desires a beautiful woman does not mean he can capture her and take her for his wife against her will...that is the definition of rape. What would you call it if a man took your daughter against her will because he desired her? I'm pretty sure you would call it kidnapping and rape. So let me ask you: what is the difference between your daughter and the women that were captured by the Hebrew soldiers?

    Has the definition of morality changed from Old Testament times to modern times?



    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    I don't understand how can you object to the order which God brings to the scenario He thus acknowledged to Moses, except that you willingly ignore all other information in scripture which cover His provisions for a woman's most fulfilled role, and, her real spiritual needs; in this case, to be provided for with intimate love and shelter, food and clothes, and, brought into and under the blessings of the commonwealth of Israel.

    You object to these blessings for a woman now bereft of paternal protection and provision? You think you sound reasonable in this?

    I mean, isn't a man who genuinely fancies a woman, more likely to care for her as his own flesh? .... as Rahab, also from an idolatrous culture, was given a fresh start under Yahweh's provisions, enabled to become a respectable wife and mother? What is wrong with this outcome?

    By these Yahweh shows Himself righteous - more righteous than unrestrained natural men and women. God is seriously protecting His investment!
    What you call intimate love was nothing more that LUST on the part of those soldiers, they saw beautiful women whom they desired and Yahweh allowed them to fulfill their desires at the expense of women. How could a man have intimate love for a woman that he doesn't even know and he has just slaughtered her entire family? You forgot to quote verse 14 where it says: "And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

    So, what we have is a soldier who lusts after a beautiful woman that he has just taken captive after slaughtering her family, after he screws her he decides that he no longer has any desire for her, so he is commanded to let her go. Now she is considered used "goods" so she has to become a prostitute to support herself...and you think there is nothing wrong with this? And you even call Yahweh righteous!

    How can your heart be that hardened not to see how wrong this is, and have no compassion, or empathy for your own gender?
    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Real sexual violence is defined by the idolatries described Leviticus 18 (below), Leviticus 19:29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness. {prostitute: Heb. profane} and, 2 Samuel 13:14 Howbeit he [Amnon] would not hearken unto her [Tamar his sister's] voice: but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her.


    It's funny that you should quote Lev 19:29 where it says "Do not prostitute thy daughter", because that is exactly what "righteous" Lot tried to do in Sodom when he offered up his two daughters to the angry mob and told them to do with them what was right in their own eyes, without a single reprimand from Yahweh!

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,371
    Hello Rose,

    thanks for clarifying your position in relation to God. I do not know what the ratio is of men to women charaters in the Bible, there is undeniably a greater number of men than women. Women might be outnumbered by a lot but this is not showing bias. Men and women have different roles; God designed male and female to have different roles. God has given the man different responsibilities to that of the woman. Having defined the roles and the responsibilities and the rules (law) God judges accordingly. If you stand before Jesus at the judgement seat will you accuse him of being biassed towards men?
    As I read everyone one's comments I see grains of truth in all, I might agree with some more than others but examining everything in the light of truth, the conclusions I make should not be biassed. If I am biassed then I will correct that where it is correctly pointed out.

    Rose, I can agree with you that the women were taken as wives without having their say and we can say they were unwilling. Do we know whether these women had the right to refuse to have sex with their husband once married? Do we know for sure what would happen to them if they did? Perhaps this is covered by the expression; "finding no delight in her". Divorce is a separate subject though we know it was not intentioned that a man should divorce his wife for anything other than adultery and that unless the partner died, remarrying was also considered adultery. Remember what Jesus said on the subject; Matt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. Even as Moses suffered (allowed) this to happen, God was also suffering this to happen. Don't forget that God is bringing about his purpose despite what mankind does. By rights God should rule with a rod of iron and exercise justice straightaway and we would all be dead by now, fore we have all sinned and the wages of sin is death. God in His mercy is allowing us to let our lives run their course and He will sift the rigtheuos from the reprobates at he the end.

    Richard agreed with me that there could be other reasons apart from sex that a man might divorce his wife. We have to examine every question and possibility before we reach a conclusion. I expect you are right in that a few were taken as wife and had sex unwillingly and that could be regarded as rape. It is probably a much lower order than you are making out. What you are doing is exaggerating your claims so as to bias your argument in your favor and alas in this thread I am in agreement with Cheow and Charisma having read their posts following mine.

    This story of the 32,000 virgins I can say you are biassing toward accusing God as immoral for allowing it. You are failing to look at any positive aspects to this episode. It was when replying to Richard on this subject I read the whole story including the way the spoils of war (including these virgins) were divided up and you find they were not all given to the soldiers. When you take everything into account, you should not hold such a biassed stance. The lot of these virgins you might say;"was not a happy one", but these girls were spared from slaughter. Would you have preferred the virgins to be killed along with their parents? The people they were taken from were idolatrous and an abomination to God. These girls might have been young, but not young enough not to have been influenced by their parents and peers in idolatrous practices. By comparison, life in Isralite families was a soft touch.

    Despite everything you level against God at the moment, God has not withdrawn his offer to you. You still have time to change your reasoning and maybe if you remove your bias you will come to see God as the merciful god he is. If others can see God as acting justly in this episode involving the virgins, then there has to be reasons for reaching that conclusion and at the moment Rose, you are not conceeding that God is showing and measure of justice and mercy.



    All the best

    David

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,371
    Hi Richard.

    It is not a case of me missing the point of Rose's topic completely re 'Sexual Violence Against Women Promoted in Scripture', I was addressing some of the points raised in the body of the post and adding a few more points for discussion. If Rose mentioned male rape as one example, I responded to that point. I do not expect you to respond to every single point I make and I appreciate and wonder how you manage to respond to so many posts in the way you do; it looks like it is a full-time job writing as much as you do.

    Sorry if you think it was rude of me to suggest you have been influenced by Rose, I appreciate you not taking offence, and I will not take offence by you considering I am "small-minded" and I cannot appreciate the horrors that went on. One thing you can say of the Bible (and God's people) is that it is a "warts and all" book. This is not like the nations (Egypt for one)who attempted to remove all trace of their defeats and failing as a nation. God's word has lots of horrors and at times it has vile language, yet even these horrible episodes teach us something; either the inhumanity of mankind or of the justice and mercy of God. It is a pity you do not see that God is showing any degree of these attributes in these horrible episodes.

    Quoted by RAM
    Normal, healthy, human morality is infinitely greater than much of what is taught in the Bible
    Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. I can see that God's ways are definitely higher than your's Richard even when I read into the gruesome accounts of war written of in the Bible. God has caused them to be written of a purpose, they are there to teach lessons. Are we learning the lessons we should?

    Quoted by RAM
    You underestimate the power of God to redeem people
    You are making assumptions about me because you misunderstand what I say, but then we all do that to some extent in the course of these posts. I do not underestimate the power of God to redeem people, that is why I think there is still hope for you and Rose, but God expects us to come to Him on His terms, not ours.

    Let's keep on chatting.

    All the best

    David
    Last edited by David M; 03-05-2012 at 02:48 AM.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,185
    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose,

    thanks for clarifying your position in relation to God. I do not know what the ratio is of men to women charaters in the Bible, there is undeniably a greater number of men than women. Women might be outnumbered by a lot but this is not showing bias. Men and women have different roles; God designed male and female to have different roles. God has given the man different responsibilities to that of the woman. Having defined the roles and the responsibilities and the rules (law) God judges accordingly. If you stand before Jesus at the judgement seat will you accuse him of being biassed towards men?
    As I read everyone one's comments I see grains of truth in all, I might agree with some more than others but examining everything in the light of truth, the conclusions I make should not be biassed. If I am biassed then I will correct that where it is correctly pointed out.
    Hi David,

    Thanks for taking time to respond

    Men outnumbering women has nothing to do with my conclusions on the Bible being biased toward the male. You are right that men and women have different roles as far as bearing and raising children, but that is not what I'm talking about. The bias I am speaking of is where women are specifically targeted because of their gender and treated unequally. Over, and over again as I have pointed out how the Bible treats women unequally and unfairly, which is totally in keeping with a book written by men, from the male mindset of the time that women were property.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Rose, I can agree with you that the women were taken as wives without having their say and we can say they were unwilling. Do we know whether these women had the right to refuse to have sex with their husband once married? Do we know for sure what would happen to them if they did? Perhaps this is covered by the expression; "finding no delight in her". Divorce is a separate subject though we know it was not intentioned that a man should divorce his wife for anything other than adultery and that unless the partner died, remarrying was also considered adultery. Remember what Jesus said on the subject; Matt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. Even as Moses suffered (allowed) this to happen, God was also suffering this to happen. Don't forget that God is bringing about his purpose despite what mankind does. By rights God should rule with a rod of iron and exercise justice straightaway and we would all be dead by now, fore we have all sinned and the wages of sin is death. God in His mercy is allowing us to let our lives run their course and He will sift the rigtheuos from the reprobates at he the end.

    Richard agreed with me that there could be other reasons apart from sex that a man might divorce his wife. We have to examine every question and possibility before we reach a conclusion. I expect you are right in that a few were taken as wife and had sex unwillingly and that could be regarded as rape. It is probably a much lower order than you are making out. What you are doing is exaggerating your claims so as to bias your argument in your favor and alas in this thread I am in agreement with Cheow and Charisma having read their posts following mine.
    It doesn't matter how few women were taken and raped (though it's not as rare as you imply), even one woman would be outrages since it was commanded of Yahweh! And why did Yahweh allow the men to divorce women because of the hardness of their harts and not allow women to divorce men? Once again a double standard biased toward the male.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    This story of the 32,000 virgins I can say you are biassing toward accusing God as immoral for allowing it. You are failing to look at any positive aspects to this episode. It was when replying to Richard on this subject I read the whole story including the way the spoils of war (including these virgins) were divided up and you find they were not all given to the soldiers. When you take everything into account, you should not hold such a biassed stance. The lot of these virgins you might say;"was not a happy one", but these girls were spared from slaughter. Would you have preferred the virgins to be killed along with their parents? The people they were taken from were idolatrous and an abomination to God. These girls might have been young, but not young enough not to have been influenced by their parents and peers in idolatrous practices. By comparison, life in Isralite families was a soft touch.
    Where is your heart man? To make the glib statement "at least these girls were spared from slaughter", what How can you have no compassion or empathy? Imagine it was your daughter, wouldn't you rather her be killed with you then to be taken captive by the men who killed her family and raped her! Why do you think the Jewish community at Masada all killed themselves rather than be taken captive by the Roman soldiers? Because the Roman soldiers would have done to them exactly what their ancestors did to the people they captured!

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Despite everything you level against God at the moment, God has not withdrawn his offer to you. You still have time to change your reasoning and maybe if you remove your bias you will come to see God as the merciful god he is. If others can see God as acting justly in this episode involving the virgins, then there has to be reasons for reaching that conclusion and at the moment Rose, you are not conceeding that God is showing and measure of justice and mercy.



    All the best

    David
    In all the verses I have quoted concerning the sexual violence against women, I have seen no justice or mercy displayed on the part of Yahweh. What I see in verse after verse, is Yahweh conceding to the lustful desires of men! It's time to open your eyes and see the Bible for what it is...right now it's hard for you to see it, because the implications are too much to handle.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    800
    Hi rose and all,

    I don't agree with all that is said below. The importance of the chapter to the discussion and problem with the Old Testament laws, wars, rapes and etc., are covered in the realization that these interactions between people and places and various tribes etc, are allegorical.
    If the rapes were never sanctioned by God there is no problem.
    If the wars related in the Old Testament did not happen, there is also no problem.

    Jesus said that Moses wrote of him. He also said that the law and prophets prophecied until John. Those prophecies and the writings of Moses also speak of us and our relationship with Jesus that was foretold to come. The fulfillment of the promises.

    For us to change from what we are as natural men to being formed in his image is a long ride. There are internal struggles that we will have to go through. These are wars.

    In the Qabalah there are ten Sephiroth. Each Sephirah is positive (or male) to that which is below and negative (or female) to that which is above. This does not mean evil or good. It is merely a matter of polarity. All ten sephiroth are aspects of one God.
    Same goes for Adam and Eve. Spirt and soul. Thought and emotion. The institution of marriage is a picture of proper flow. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are sons of God. God's Spirit, our spirit our soul (mind.)

    So, just as in the overall of Creation, after the split of our spirit and soul, there are male (thoughts) and female (emotions) that unite and bear fruit (children)

    Some of those thoughts are incompatible with our growing into Christ. Some of the emotional energy is still valuable after doing away with those thoughts.
    That is the taking of wives of the peoples who have been destroyed by these "wars."

    We see this in meditation or pschoanalysis. We have complexes. Thoughts from our past that center around certain emotions. Many times, all we have to do is come to the awareness of where these events from our past came from and the complex is broken apart. That same energy that we felt as a lump in our solar plexus releases. That energy can now be used in other ways that are beneficial rather than detrimental to our spiritual growth.

    Rape can be looked at as the taking by force of something that should be done by Spirit.
    Zech 4:6 "...Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts."
    Moses striking the Rock is a good example.

    To get the deeper meaning out of these wars, slaughters and such related in the Old Testament would entail looking at each and every element of each individual story in question. Who were the Israelites fighting? Where were they fighting? What were the names of each and every individual concern in the specific story? what were the specific Kings names etc., etc.

    Israelites were thoughts overcoming with God. But our spiritual thoughts are not always correct in our approach to problems, so that also has to be taken into account.

    Jesus showed us the way in the New Testament and Paul and the other writers put details to our journey.
    It is the more direct approach to understanding the what is being accomplished in us, in my opinion/understanding.

    All the best,

    Bob


    Spiritual Interpretation of Scripture

    Chapter - Scriptural Symbols


    Spiritual significance of Scripture is often revealed in the metaphysical interpretation of names of people of places, mountains, seas, and rivers we find in the Bible. The historical sense of the Bible is often not correct and is rarely of much important. The spiritual sense of Scripture is the important one, and it shows forth the laws and principles of harmonious existence.

    Spiritual ideas and moral lessons have been interpreted as men, events and movements, and these must now be re-interpreted in order to unravel the mystery of the Bible and make Scripture practical in destroying its superstitions and mysteries.

    People have considered their place of worship almost as important as the God they worshipped. The Holy Temple in Jerusalem was considered of such importance that Jew from all over the Holy Lands made pilgrimages there every year. The Temple, however, rightly understood, is a symbol of the spiritual universe or body and is attained not by means of a pilgrimage from one place to another, but by an expansion of consciousness, which then includes within itself the secret of immortality or life eternal achieved here and now.

    Jesus showed forth this truth about the Temple when he said, "Ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. . . But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth."

    Again, he said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will rise it up." The material sense of Temple localizes and finitizes it; the spiritual sense reveals the infinite and immortal Temple of your life, your body, your experience of good.

    This true view of Temple likewise spiritualizes your understanding of worship. Thinking of church as material, as having edifices and rules, materializes and finitizes and localizes worship, whereas, the spiritual sense of church reveals the unlimited, unfettered prayer uttered within your own being.

    Following this line of thought, we find a Holy City, which, being interpreted, becomes divine Consciousness or Christ Consciousness and this is now understood as the consciousness of you and of me.

    We likewise find in all Scripture and upper and a lower land, indicating heaven and earth, or states and stages of consciousness and symbolizing Spirit and body.

    There is always a connecting river and a bordering sea. The river is the individual path from sense to Soul, from the lower land to the upper, the bordering sea is either the troubled waters of material existence or the quiet waters of the Soul. Always there are smaller bodies of water to be crossed on the journey -- the Sea of Galilee. Dead Sea, Black Sea, the Jordan -- all symbolic of the one crossing from danger to safety, from matter to Spirit.

    Within our own consciousness we find these places, rivers, temples and mountains-not outside of us in a book as it may appear. It is within our own consciousness that the rivers are to be crossed, the transition made from the localized and finite conditions to the infinite and omnipotent good.

    In reading Scripture, remember that the people and events are to be understood as states and stages of your development and unfoldment, as spiritual consciousness.

    The tendency to translate spiritual ides of good into symbolic names of places is to be found in the naming of cities of the United States: Salem, Providence, New Haven, Newark, New Canaan, Bethlehem, Corpus Christi, Sacramento, and many others. No doubt the early settlers were expecting to find peace in Salem, security in Providence, a haven in New Haven, a new existence in Bethlehem, and so on down the long list of symbolic names. People are always believing that they are going to find their peace, joy, health or wealth in some person or place--and that is one reason for so many disappointments.

    There is no such thing as a heaven, harmony, to be found in person, place or thing. If we do not find our good in our own consciousness, we will not find it externalized, and if we do find it within our own being, we will find it wherever we may geographically find ourselves. No circumstance or condition can be experienced unless it first be found within our own consciousness.

    "Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it." Unless the Consciousness of God speaks through us, it would not be the voice of God heard.

    You remember that John the Baptist said he was not the Light, but that he bore witness to the Light. In every instance your interest must not be centered in or on the messenger, but rather in the voice of God and its message. You are always attuned, receptive to the ideas unfolding within you. Do not be enticed even by words of wisdom because the Spirit of God speaks in a spiritual tongue and interprets itself to the listener spiritually.

    "Ye are the light of the world." That is your only reason for existing. Anything less would not be worthy of God's revelation of His own being.

    God must play some part in our experience in order for us to receive the inflow of God. When we turn to God, let us try to rest, to let down the barrier of self to the degree that we acknowledge the divine Presence, the God Presence.

    There is no individual with more God Presence than another, yet there is a greater degree of awareness of the Presence in one than in another. Why turn to somebody else instead of the Kingdom within ourselves? Only because we have not given the time, attention, thought, prayer and consecration to the bringing forth of that Presence that some others have. Therefore, in our unlimited state, we may turn to another and there find the divine Grace. Finding it in some one else ultimately leads to finding it in our own being--because that Grace is the very Self of you and of me.

    One of the puzzling things that faces every student of the Bible is the God of the Old Testament, the God of vengeance, the God that rewards and punishes. In the light of Christian revelation, it is agreed that that concept of God is an erroneous one--that there has never been such a God.

    To accept that statement literally would be to wipe out all of the experiences of the Hebrew prophets, and it would not be wise to make such a statement. To me, the God of the Hebrew Testament was a blank puzzle for many years, and I could get nowhere in trying to fathom that God; yet at no time could I feel that something false or fictitious was being presented.

    The same puzzle presented itself to me in the study of the three-faced Hindu God. How could these people that had such great light, such great wisdom, be so terribly wrong as to present a three- headed God: God the Creator, the Preserver and the Destroyer.

    Now we have the answer, we know that the Hebrews and the Hindus both were right, because through the revelation of the spiritual sense of the Bible, we know that the destruction referred to was not the destruction of person, place or thin, but the destruction of the belief about the universe. Truth is a destroyer, but the only thing it has ever destroyed is error, and error never existed as a reality.

    We understand that God is a divine Consciousness, infinite Consciousness and, therefore, contains within Itself its allness of being. We understand that nothing exists outside of God, that is outside of infinite Consciousness. It must be true, then, that God must destroy even a possibility of false concept. Within this infinite Consciousness which I am, there exists that which will destroy every illusory sense or concept. That is why we understand now that sin and disease do not exist as realities. They exist only as beliefs or false concepts, and it makes it simple for us to be healed of these errors, whether they are of health, morals or supply, when we realize that in the infinite Consciousness we call God, there is that destructive influence ever ready to remove whatever is unlike God-not to remove person, place or thing, but to remove every false concept of person, place or thing. The infinite Consciousness we call God is constituted of every quality of good, which includes always a force and power that is destructive to everything unlike its own being. This is an important thing at this particular time, because right now we are reaping hatreds due to the war, conditions national and international, racial and religious. We, though, do not have to be reformer. We have the realization within our own being, the Consciousness called God, and it has within Itself all that is necessary to destroy any qualities unlike good.

    We do not have to be personal saviours to any one, because this infinite spiritual Consciousness, which is individualized has within Itself all that would be the Saviour, as well as all that is necessary to destroy all that is unlike good. We are never called upon to be personal saviours or punishers of evil doers. We can easily rest in the realization that God is the Mind, Soul and Consciousness of individual being. In this Consciousness is all that is necessary for the manifestation of the harmony of God being, as well as the destruction of everything that is unlike its own nature. That is why all through the Bible in the recorded healings, some in the Old Testament and many in the New, it is not in any way indicated that it is necessary to use suggestion or hypnotism in healing. It is not necessary to transfer thought from one individual who my be the practitioner, to another individual called a patient. The truth of being realized in individual consciousness is the law unto those who ask for help. We do not have to project our thought outward to a person, or even make them understand some truth.

    The metaphysician has no interest in truth as an abstract theory, but only as it is proved a practical way of life. The Word must become flesh; it must be embodied as our own being, it must make for us a joyous existence, a successful one, a happy one. The rule for all of this is laid down in the Scriptures of the world. We have seen how universal is Truth--in Oriental Scriptures, the Old and New Testaments, Emerson, Whitman-- wherever we turn we find the same Truth, but we have not found it made practical in our own experience until the advent of metaphysical teachings within the last century.

    Our turning to the Scriptures to find a solution to the problems in our individual experience is an example which may enable others to do the same. There is no way whereby we can save the world. This is entirely an individual experience. One of the sad parts of this is that at times we cannot bring our own families into it, as they can accept it only as they are ready. We can, though, be the Light of the world: we can show forth, through our demonstration, that which will encourage others to seek the same way. That is as far as we can go. We can only show it forth and thereby encourage them to take the next step.

    One of the points that has retarded our own healing work has been the inability to recognize the fact that it is not necessary to reach a person with our mental thoughts; it is not necessary to get a treatment across to a patient. It is necessary only to reach the depths of our own being, to have a realization within our own consciousness, and that is the point from this moment on we are going to remember. Healing has nothing to do with the other fellow; it has to do with our state of consciousness only. In these years that lie just ahead of us, that is the work that will have to be done to set the pace for the entire healing world.

    How do we spiritualize our own thinking so as to be the Light of the world? We have been taught that Truth cannot be known by the human sense; Truth cannot be intellectually discerned. Truth is a spiritual quality, and it must be spiritually discerned. It must enter our awareness through spiritual sense, through spiritual consciousness. This spiritual sense is attained in two ways: one, by the reading of spiritual or inspirational literature, which, of course, includes practicing the truth learned, second, by contact with those whose thought is in the same direction. Spiritual consciousness is contagious: it is impossible to be in the presence of those who are making even the slightest degree of effort towards this awareness, without imbibing some of it from them. The greatest step is found in the word "receptivity," "Speak, Lord; for thy servant heareth." "Be still and know." "I will listen for Thy voice." Always it is be still; always it is listen; always the indication is to become receptive, open consciousness to the inflow. It is as if, just outside of our hearing ear, is an infinite reservoir of spiritual good, and by opening the ear, listening, we open consciousness for an inflow of the Word, the divine Spirit.

    We have advanced to a state where our interest is in God and the things of God, where we must pray without ceasing; our lives must be a dedication. We are no longer living for ourselves, and that is not an understatement. It would be impossible to follow the line of work we have been doing if our interest was just self-interest. We have gone beyond that. We have come to a place of self-effacement where we are living not for our own good: our demonstration is only incidental to the work that we are carrying on. "Ye are the light of the world." There is not an individual on earth who is not here as part of a divine plan. Every one has his own particular mission; every one here is to serve some particular part of God's purpose. As humans, we do not fulfill that mission--no human ever fulfilled a spiritual mission--but in the forgetting of our humanhood, divinity is revealed, the divine plan is revealed.

    The public ministry of healing is only one avenue. Right where you are is holy ground -- "the place whereon thou standest is holy ground" -- and that is the place from which to show forth the Christ of your being. Any further steps that have to be taken, will be taken by the Christ of your being. You will not have to plan it humanly.

    Constant realization of the letter of truth is necessary so that we do not get lost in the bypaths of blind faith or superstition. It is much too easy to roll off the path into a blind faith, a superstitious faith. We must keep balanced; we must have a reason for our faith. This is not contradictory to the idea that we must be spiritually illumined, but rather, having a reason for our faith makes it possible to receive greater illumination.

    To fall into a careless attitude of leaving it to God, without realizing that this God we are leaving it to is the reality of our own being, would be fatal to our ultimate demonstration. There is no God outside of our own being: God is the Mind of the individual, the Life, Soul and Spirit. Therefore, God is that which constitutes the individual. This being true, when we take the attitude, I can rest. I can relax, knowing that God is on the field, it is because we know that we are referring to our human sense of self that we can relax, knowing that the divine of us is on the field, knowing that the "I" of us is the law unto our own being, knowing that I and the Father being one, all that the Father hath is mine. Then we can relax and can even say, "Leave it to God." It is only when we fail to remind ourselves frequently of the true nature of God--of our oneness with God--that we are apt to relapse into the fatal belief of some power outside of our own being. We dare not accept the New Testament as our guide, inspiration or textbook without accepting Jesus' revelation that, "I and my Father are one."

    The Bible has not been so clear on the nature of error as the metaphysical writings that have been given to us for our study. It took deep spiritual insight to find that the evils and errors, the sins of the Old Testament, were not realities but negative qualities of thought. The literal study of the Bible does not reveal that, and that is why the churches have never taught it. All of them accept evil, error, as real.

    Error has been proved to be no more real than our own concept of it, so taking the Bible together with the metaphysical writings of today, we take another step in the realization of the letter of truth, because through this letter of truth, we are led to the Spirit.

    You cannot accept intellectually the nothingness of error. In our study, we must understand the statement that error or disease is not real. We must gain some degree of realization of the nothingness of error. Words will not do it. The study of the literal sense of the Bible will not reveal the absolute Truth that there is but one Power. No matter how many times the Bible speaks of God as all, there are just as many references showing that evil has terrific power, and many times sufficient power to overcome good. But spiritual insight has revealed that the so-called evil powers were not powers but only beliefs, false concepts, ignorance. That leaves us, then, with the great task of getting used to the idea that there is but one Power and that that which is called evil is not power. As we accept this and apply it, ultimately we gain, through our sense of receptivity, a realization of that truth; and all the errors in the world are seen to be illusions, and we wonder that we ever feared them, or hated them, and in some instances, loved them.
    Last edited by Bob May; 03-06-2012 at 03:44 AM.
    Harry Potter,.. "Is this all happening in my head, or is it real?"
    Professor Dumbledor,.. "Of course it's all happening in your head. What makes you think that means it isn't real?"

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    13,907
    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    One thing you can say of the Bible (and God's people) is that it is a "warts and all" book. This is not like the nations (Egypt for one)who attempted to remove all trace of their defeats and failing as a nation. God's word has lots of horrors and at times it has vile language, yet even these horrible episodes teach us something; either the inhumanity of mankind or of the justice and mercy of God. It is a pity you do not see that God is showing any degree of these attributes in these horrible episodes.
    That doesn't help because the "warts" we are talking about are the horrible things the Bible attributes to God.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. I can see that God's ways are definitely higher than your's Richard even when I read into the gruesome accounts of war written of in the Bible. God has caused them to be written of a purpose, they are there to teach lessons. Are we learning the lessons we should?
    Say what? You can't "see" any such thing. I would never command genocide and institutionalize rape of women as "war booty." I would never condemn my own child to eternal hell for the "crime" of thinking independently. Why do you make such baseless claims? The morality of the Bible is primitive and much of it is and should be rejected by all humans with authentic morality. Can you find anything in the Bible that is higher than the morality I aspire to?

    Why does the Bible attribute things to God that are universally rejected as immoral? How can you say that his ways are "higher" when they obviously are so much lower?

    You seem to forget that God didn't have to command his people to murder everyone in the promised land. He had an infinity of other possible choices. Why then did he choose to fill teh world with violence and command his people to be brutal bloody baby killers? I've asked this question a does times and no one dares to touch it. WHY IS GOD SO ENAMOURED WITH VIOLENCE? He didn't have to do things that way. Why does God choose violence when there are so many other possible solutions?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You are making assumptions about me because you misunderstand what I say, but then we all do that to some extent in the course of these posts. I do not underestimate the power of God to redeem people, that is why I think there is still hope for you and Rose, but God expects us to come to Him on His terms, not ours.

    Let's keep on chatting.

    All the best

    David
    Yes, we all make assumptions - we have no choice. That's why we need to keep talking so we can clear things up and come to a mutual understanding.

    You say that "God expects us to come to him on his terms, not ours." That's another example of something that is much worse than normal human morality. I don't demand my children to come to me on my terms. Loving parents want their children to come to them freely on their own terms. They delight in diversity and freedom. Loving parents would not rule over their children like dictators who enforce their authority with threats of horrific punishment. This is the problem with the Christian world view. It is modeled on the worst human social institution of an autocrat with absolute (and arbitrary) authority over the lives of all his subjects. He commands worship, and all who refuse are tortured to death. This is the view presented by Christians. They say "God loves you so much that if you refuse his commands he will condemn you forever to torture in the flames of hell!"

    I do hope this conversation will continue. We are dealing with essential issues.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,185
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Hi rose and all,

    I don't agree with all that is said below. The importance of the chapter to the discussion and problem with the Old Testament laws, wars, rapes and etc., are covered in the realization that these interactions between people and places and various tribes etc, are allegorical.
    If the rapes were never sanctioned by God there is no problem.
    If the wars related in the Old Testament did not happen, there is also no problem.
    Hi Bob,

    An allegory takes abstract ideas and personifies them, but that is not whats happening in Bible. The stories we read about in Scripture are based on actual events whether on not each element or detail is correct. In these stories we read of the moral atrocities that the Hebrew soldiers committed, clearly stating that God commanded women to be raped and families to be slaughtered. If one is going to take such liberties as to interpret these stories in a symbolic manner and change them from horrendous immoral acts to something more pleasing to our senses, then the whole of Scripture can be changed to say whatever one pleases it to say.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    To get the deeper meaning out of these wars, slaughters and such related in the Old Testament would entail looking at each and every element of each individual story in question. Who were the Israelites fighting? Where were they fighting? What were the names of each and every individual concern in the specific story? what were the specific Kings names etc., etc.

    Israelites were thoughts overcoming with God. But our spiritual thoughts are not always correct in our approach to problems, so that also has to be taken into account.

    Jesus showed us the way in the New Testament and Paul and the other writers put details to our journey.
    It is the more direct approach to understanding the what is being accomplished in us, in my opinion/understanding.

    All the best,

    Bob
    If what you say it true, and each element of the biblical stories must be looked at in extreme detail to try and discern the correct spiritual meaning, then I think 99.9% of all the people who read the Bible get it wrong! If the plain meaning is not what God intended, then he should have had the Bible written in such a manner that the proper interpretation could be easily understood by those who read it.

    Thanks for chatting,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •