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  1. #1
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    Sexual Violence Against Women Promoted in Scripture

    Once a person becomes sensitized to the male bias of the Bible its footprints are obvious everywhere one looks. From the get-go in Genesis we read that it was a woman (Eve) who was the one made responsible for being deceived, thus bringing down the curse of sin upon all humans, then immediately following she is cursed by having the male rule over her…sure sounds like a script written by a man to me.

    One glaring aspect of the Bible that seems to be overlooked by many is the perspective, from which it is written, especially in the area of sexuality. It becomes abundantly obvious who wrote the Bible when one focuses on that angle. Case in point: rape is a crime committed against women that does not have a male counterpart; men rape women because of their uncontrollable sexual lust, and complete disregard for women giving no thought, or caring whatsoever of how it feels to be sexually violated. This exclusively male mindset of sexual violence is exemplified in the Bible with the supposed creator of the universe, Yahweh commanding such deeds be done. On numerous occasions one finds Yahweh commanding that the virgins of a conquered people be given to the Hebrew soldiers as booty. These women who have just watched their families slaughtered before their very eyes are now given by the command of God to the soldiers to be taken as wives against their will and raped. There is no hint of compassion, empathy, or thought of the anguish these women would be going through, which is exactly what one would expect from a rapist, but not from a loving God. Throughout Scripture the sexual desires, and feelings of lust in men are made abundantly clear and catered to, but what is absent from its pages are the sexual desires and feelings of women. The examples below are just a few of many scattered throughout the Bible which exemplifies the total male perspective from which the Bible was written, condoning the sexual violation of women without any regard for their feelings because they are considered no more than property.
    Num.31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying15-18 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves….30-35) And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD. And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses…And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

    Deuteronomy 21:10-11 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;…

    Judges 21:11-12 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan…..14) And Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them wives which they had saved alive of the women of Jabesh-Gilead: and yet so they sufficed them not….20) Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards; And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.


    It's one thing to speak of an abstract "Mind from which all reality originated", and quite another to speak of the masculine warrior god portrayed in the Bible as being the creator of all reality who would not only allow such brutality against women, but who himself would command it! Any book like the Bible that could be, and has been used to negatively affect the lives of half the human population (females) could in no way be inspired by a moral god. Because of the way the Bible is written it has been used by men as a weapon to control and destroy the lives of countless women...if such a god did inspired the Bible he would be deemed a moral monster by today's standards. It’s time to wake up and take a second look at a book that has been held as a moral standard since its inception.

    Everyday I read with horror accounts of the trafficking of girls and women in the Sex Trade, if one were to take a poll on how people feel about these egregious violations of human rights I’m sure it would be close to 100% (except of course those who are profiting from, and participating in this crime) saying this is a horrible crime against all humanity, adversely affecting women and men alike. What I feel is so sad is that many of the same Christians who abhor the idea of the sexual abuse of women through the Sex Trade, fail to see its glaring presence in the Bible. Until Christians can openly acknowledge that the Bible does indeed promote the sexual abuse of women with the express approval of and promotion by its author, they will never be free from its bondage. Throughout history women have never enjoyed the same freedom as men because of the domineering and aggressive nature of many men, with this in mind it becomes very apparent that the Bible reads like an historical account of how men think and their corresponding actions mapped onto a tribal war god.

    In my own life, through all the years I was a Christian there was a constant anguish I felt every time I would encounter a troubling passage in Scripture that violated human rights because I believed so strongly in God, yet here in the Bible were words that seemed to reveal a side of him that went against my deepest feelings as a woman…all I knew to do was try and convince myself that somehow these words were a wrong interpretation of God’s perfect ways. Fortunately I am totally free from that burden now, after realizing through intense study that the Bible is not a book revealing the creator of the universe, but rather a book expressing mans ideas of who they think the creator of the universe is, and since it was men who wrote the Bible, their expression of God is quite masculine which is reflected everywhere within its pages.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  2. #2
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    It looks like I shall have to be the first to respond to Rose's thread. I feel sorry for Rose who appears to be bitter towards God and I think some of this has spilled over to Richard agreeing with Rose's point of view. This is evident from some of the other threads posted by Richard challenging God.

    Technically, God has no gender, maybe instead of the word He we should always say His name instead of 'He' or 'it' which appears disrespectful when we comment about someone in their presence to another person and we do not refer to them by name.

    So why did not God create woman first? I suggest God is regarded as male since in sexual terms between man and a woman, the man passes something to the woman. Man gives and the woman receives. This is the way it is between God and man. God gives and man receives. We can see this everytime somthing is mentioned as coming from Heaven; it is God who is doing the providing.

    Regarding the fall in the Garden. The commandment was given to Adam and we infer that Adam passed on the command to Eve. Eve was the one deceived, but Adam ate knowingly, therefore Adam’s sin was the greater. Eve was deceived, Adam was not. We are not told Adam was deceived by Eve.

    One of the consequences is that the man has the greater responsibility when it comes to preaching and spreading the truth of God’s message; this we see in the pattern that was established in the worship of God and the law given to Moses when the Children of Israel were in the wilderness after being led out of Egypt and in which God saved them from their bondage in Eygpt.

    Though Mary the mother of Jesus is not to be venerated, woman as the child-bearing sex is very important to God. God does respect women and we have seen how God has used women to the good to fulfil his purpose. Women characters might be fewer in the Bible, but they are often portrayed as playing a crucial role and appearing greater than men at times. What about Ruth for example? There is a whole book of the Bible with Ruth’s name to it.

    On a lighter note for a moment; I listened to a series given by the late Prof. Neiman and in passing he said that the woman is the only female of the species that feels pain during child birth. The reason for the pain is because the child’s head is too large to pass through the birth canal. The explanation Prof. Neiman gave was (and it is better the way he puts it) the woman wanted to have knowledge to know good and evil and so to accommodate the extra knowledge God made the head bigger and that is why Eve suffered the pain of child-birth because the baby's head was made bigger.

    I have responded to Richard’s thread dealing with the episode in Numbers 31 dealing with the time when the Children of Israel (C of I)took captive the women for the men to take as wives. I explained how this episode is not as barbaric as Rose is trying to make out. The women were not raped, they were taken as wives, they were allowed a period to mourn, they were allowed to go free if for some reason she separated from her husband. Considering that God told the C of I to utterly destroy the people in the land to which He led them, knowing that the people of the land would corrupt His people with idolatry if they did not, the C of I did not obey God and they suffered the consequences. In this episode, the women brought their idolatry with them; I am surprised that the women were not killed along with the men. One thing we do not always appreciate is that God is working to a plan and a timescale. It is like a game of chess; God is working several moves ahead and we do not see the reasons why God does or allows things to happen until we see a later move and then that explains the moves of the past. Hence, I suggest Rose is being short-sighted because she is becoming blinkered and focussing her attention on the negative aspects and blaming God for what is in the first instance was man’s disobedience to God's commands. God has to work around this to bring about his purpose.

    Regarding the rape of men by women, we know it happens today, it might not happen as often as the rape of women by men, but it happens. The fact that there is not a mention of the rape of a man by a woman in the Bible is not an excuse to lay blame on the Bible. The Bible does mention the intended rape of men by men and we conclude that in the time of Sodom and Gomorrah the rape of men was common.
    Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know (have sex with) them.
    The fact that the rape of men takes place in society today ought to serve as another warning that the times in which we live are all signs leading to the necessity for Christ to return and take over from the rule of man that has gone on long enough and man’s rule only leads to self-destruction

    I have kept this short by not inserting a lot of scriptural references that I have given in other threads. The goodness and severity of God is I expect a topic covered elsewhere. I just wanted to balance the argument and trust that Rose, might one day change her mind again and see God in a better light than she is doing at the moment.
    Rose should stop blaming God for men’s mistakes and men’s disobedience. We cannot say it pleased God to let certain things happen any more than God delighted in animal sacrifices to cover a men’s sin. God can and does mean it when says He does not want to see anyone perish, but that all might be saved. The fault lies with man and man chooses to disobey rather than obey; hence disobedient men and women will perish. If God was not just and He weeds out the sinful from the righteous and allows anyone and everyone into the kingdom, we will have a new world as bad as it is now. God be praised that he has given us all the opportunity to be saved and respond to His invitation to be in the kingdom that He will establish through His Son. God is always at work fulfilling His purpose and that we should be thankful for.


    David
    Last edited by David M; 03-03-2012 at 02:53 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    It looks like I shall have to be the first to respond to Rose's thread. I feel sorry for Rose who appears to be bitter towards God and I think some of this has spilled over to Richard agreeing with Rose's point of view. This is evident from some of the other threads posted by Richard challenging God.

    Technically, God has no gender, maybe instead of the word He we should always say His name instead of 'He' or 'it' which appears disrespectful when we comment about someone in their presence to another person and we do not refer to them by name.
    Hi David,

    I appreciate your taking the time to respond, but you got my premise TOTALLY WRONG. I am not bitter towards God, because I DO NOT BELIEVE there is a god named Yahweh who inspired the Bible! The whole point of my article was to show that given the nature of the god promoted to be creator of the universe and author of the Bible, it is obvious that this god was constructed in the minds of Bronze Age men. If there is a divine mind that is responsible for creating the universe it most certainly IS NOT Yahweh, so once again let me reiterate I cannot be bitter against something in which I do not believe!

    It is pretty obvious that the authors of the Bible created Yahweh to be masculine, first off because he is always referred to in terms like Father, and Husband. Secondly, many of Yahweh's attributes are masculine...he doesn't give birth like the goddesses do, he speaks things into existence. When Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit she became pregnant with the male seed. All of his qualities are always spoken of as being male, that is why it is so apparent that Yahweh is indeed male and not gender neutral.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    So why did not God create woman first? I suggest God is regarded as male since in sexual terms between man and a woman, the man passes something to the woman. Man gives and the woman receives. This is the way it is between God and man. God gives and man receives. We can see this everytime somthing is mentioned as coming from Heaven; it is God who is doing the providing.

    Regarding the fall in the Garden. The commandment was given to Adam and we infer that Adam passed on the command to Eve. Eve was the one deceived, but Adam ate knowingly, therefore Adam’s sin was the greater. Eve was deceived, Adam was not. We are not told Adam was deceived by Eve.
    The reason the authors of the Bible chose to have man created first in the Garden Story, was because men wrote the story and thought they were superior to women. If you notice the whole Bible is written from the male perspective, and the masculine mind-set of Bronze Age man was one of male domination and superiority, women were considered property. Have you ever wondered why Eve was taken from the rib of man instead of both being created, and then the woman giving birth to offspring? It is because creating woman from man gives the male the superior dominate position, which is just another clue as to the authorship of the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    One of the consequences is that the man has the greater responsibility when it comes to preaching and spreading the truth of God’s message; this we see in the pattern that was established in the worship of God and the law given to Moses when the Children of Israel were in the wilderness after being led out of Egypt and in which God saved them from their bondage in Eygpt.
    Once again, the only reason men are given greater responsibility in Scripture is because Scripture was written by men whose mind-set was one of male superiority in dealing with the masculine god, Yahweh they created. The male perspective of life is everywhere one looks in the Bible from male headship to ownership of women to different standards being applied to women and the list could go on and on...

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Though Mary the mother of Jesus is not to be venerated, woman as the child-bearing sex is very important to God. God does respect women and we have seen how God has used women to the good to fulfil his purpose. Women characters might be fewer in the Bible, but they are often portrayed as playing a crucial role and appearing greater than men at times. What about Ruth for example? There is a whole book of the Bible with Ruth’s name to it.
    God respects women only so far as the male writers of the Bible allowed him to, which wasn't very much! Throughout most of Scripture the role of women was for breeding purposes only, far different from the many varied roles of men, such as leader, provider, protector and carrier of the progeny (seed). Women were stripped of everything except being the fertile soil to plant the mans seed in.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I have responded to Richard’s thread dealing with the episode in Numbers 31 dealing with the time when the Children of Israel (C of I)took captive the women for the men to take as wives. I explained how this episode is not as barbaric as Rose is trying to make out. The women were not raped, they were taken as wives, they were allowed a period to mourn, they were allowed to go free if for some reason she separated from her husband. Considering that God told the C of I to utterly destroy the people in the land to which He led them, knowing that the people of the land would corrupt His people with idolatry if they did not, the C of I did not obey God and they suffered the consequences. In this episode, the women brought their idolatry with them; I am surprised that the women were not killed along with the men. One thing we do not always appreciate is that God is working to a plan and a timescale. It is like a game of chess; God is working several moves ahead and we do not see the reasons why God does or allows things to happen until we see a later move and then that explains the moves of the past. Hence, I suggest Rose is being short-sighted because she is becoming blinkered and focussing her attention on the negative aspects and blaming God for what is in the first instance was man’s disobedience to God's commands. God has to work around this to bring about his purpose.
    Not as barbaric as what? Let me bring this a little closer to home so maybe you can get an inkling of how horrendous this really is. Imagine for a moment that you have a sixteen year old daughter who has just witnessed the slaughter of you, her mother and any male siblings she may have, after which she is taken by the invaders and given to one of the male soldiers as a wife...Oh, but of course she is given a period of time to mourn the deaths of you and all the rest of her family members! How do you think your daughter is going to feel about having sexual relations with the man who participated in killing her whole family?

    Women had feelings three thousand years ago the same as they have today, we are not heartless individuals who have no deep feelings for our families. You really believe that a woman is just going to forget about what happened to her family and happily have sex with the man responsible? There is not one case in the entire Bible where the opposite scenario is found, there are no women soldiers who slaughter entire families except for the virgin males and then take them as husbands...everything is always written from the male point of view. Men want and desire beautiful young virgin women and they are willing to get them at any cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post

    I have kept this short by not inserting a lot of scriptural references that I have given in other threads. The goodness and severity of God is I expect a topic covered elsewhere. I just wanted to balance the argument and trust that Rose, might one day change her mind again and see God in a better light than she is doing at the moment.
    Rose should stop blaming God for men’s mistakes and men’s disobedience. We cannot say it pleased God to let certain things happen any more than God delighted in animal sacrifices to cover a men’s sin. God can and does mean it when says He does not want to see anyone perish, but that all might be saved. The fault lies with man and man chooses to disobey rather than obey; hence disobedient men and women will perish. If God was not just and He weeds out the sinful from the righteous and allows anyone and everyone into the kingdom, we will have a new world as bad as it is now. God be praised that he has given us all the opportunity to be saved and respond to His invitation to be in the kingdom that He will establish through His Son. God is always at work fulfilling His purpose and that we should be thankful for.


    David
    Once again, I am not blaming a god in which I do not believe. I am merely pointing out that given the fact that the Bible is written entirely from a male perspective it is easy to see that the god portrayed in its pages is constructed from a totally male mind-set. The Bible is no more that a history of masculine thinking down through the ages, the sad thing is that people still believe this book contains the musings of a real god instead of the ideas of ancient man.


    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Once a person becomes sensitized to the male bias of the Bible its footprints are obvious everywhere one looks. From the get-go in Genesis we read that it was a woman (Eve) who was the one made responsible for being deceived, thus bringing down the curse of sin upon all humans, then immediately following she is cursed by having the male rule over her…sure sounds like a script written by a man to me.

    One glaring aspect of the Bible that seems to be overlooked by many is the perspective, from which it is written, especially in the area of sexuality. It becomes abundantly obvious who wrote the Bible when one focuses on that angle. Case in point: rape is a crime committed against women that does not have a male counterpart; men rape women because of their uncontrollable sexual lust, and complete disregard for women giving no thought, or caring whatsoever of how it feels to be sexually violated. This exclusively male mindset of sexual violence is exemplified in the Bible with the supposed creator of the universe, Yahweh commanding such deeds be done. On numerous occasions one finds Yahweh commanding that the virgins of a conquered people be given to the Hebrew soldiers as booty. These women who have just watched their families slaughtered before their very eyes are now given by the command of God to the soldiers to be taken as wives against their will and raped. There is no hint of compassion, empathy, or thought of the anguish these women would be going through, which is exactly what one would expect from a rapist, but not from a loving God. Throughout Scripture the sexual desires, and feelings of lust in men are made abundantly clear and catered to, but what is absent from its pages are the sexual desires and feelings of women. The examples below are just a few of many scattered throughout the Bible which exemplifies the total male perspective from which the Bible was written, condoning the sexual violation of women without any regard for their feelings because they are considered no more than property.
    Num.31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying15-18 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves….30-35) And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD. And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses…And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

    Deuteronomy 21:10-11 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;…

    Judges 21:11-12 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan…..14) And Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them wives which they had saved alive of the women of Jabesh-Gilead: and yet so they sufficed them not….20) Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards; And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.


    It's one thing to speak of an abstract "Mind from which all reality originated", and quite another to speak of the masculine warrior god portrayed in the Bible as being the creator of all reality who would not only allow such brutality against women, but who himself would command it! Any book like the Bible that could be, and has been used to negatively affect the lives of half the human population (females) could in no way be inspired by a moral god. Because of the way the Bible is written it has been used by men as a weapon to control and destroy the lives of countless women...if such a god did inspired the Bible he would be deemed a moral monster by today's standards. It’s time to wake up and take a second look at a book that has been held as a moral standard since its inception.

    Everyday I read with horror accounts of the trafficking of girls and women in the Sex Trade, if one were to take a poll on how people feel about these egregious violations of human rights I’m sure it would be close to 100% (except of course those who are profiting from, and participating in this crime) saying this is a horrible crime against all humanity, adversely affecting women and men alike. What I feel is so sad is that many of the same Christians who abhor the idea of the sexual abuse of women through the Sex Trade, fail to see its glaring presence in the Bible. Until Christians can openly acknowledge that the Bible does indeed promote the sexual abuse of women with the express approval of and promotion by its author, they will never be free from its bondage. Throughout history women have never enjoyed the same freedom as men because of the domineering and aggressive nature of many men, with this in mind it becomes very apparent that the Bible reads like an historical account of how men think and their corresponding actions mapped onto a tribal war god.

    In my own life, through all the years I was a Christian there was a constant anguish I felt every time I would encounter a troubling passage in Scripture that violated human rights because I believed so strongly in God, yet here in the Bible were words that seemed to reveal a side of him that went against my deepest feelings as a woman…all I knew to do was try and convince myself that somehow these words were a wrong interpretation of God’s perfect ways. Fortunately I am totally free from that burden now, after realizing through intense study that the Bible is not a book revealing the creator of the universe, but rather a book expressing mans ideas of who they think the creator of the universe is, and since it was men who wrote the Bible, their expression of God is quite masculine which is reflected everywhere within its pages.

    Rose
    Rose is being biased here. If the Bible was written by men so were the Koran, Sutras, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism etc. were almost all written by men. The Koran seems to be more discriminatory of women compared to the Bible yet many Muslim women seems to accept it. The other religions such as Buddhism, Confusion, Taoism seem to be kinder and less violent than Christianity and yet they were written by men. Why are there double standards among religions written by men? If the Bible were to be written by women, will it be any better? Are women less evil than men? Certainly no; both are equally evil. If the Bible were to be written by women based on equal perspectives as written by men according to Rose, we will read more disturbing (and somewhat foolish/hilarious) scriptures:

    Just an example imagining women dominant world:
    Num.31:1 And the LORD spake unto Ms Moses, saying…15-18 And Ms Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the men alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every women among the little ones, and kill every man that hath known woman by lying with her. But all the men children, that have not known a woman by lying with her, keep alive for yourselves….30-35) And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD. And Ms Moses and Ms Eleazar the priestess did as the LORD commanded Ms Moses…And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of men that had not known woman by lying with her.

    Deuteronomy 21:10-11 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a handsome man, and hast a desire unto him, that thou wouldest have him to thy husband;…

    Judges 21:11-12 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every female, and every man that hath lain by woman. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgin men, that had known no woman by lying with any female: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan…..14) And Ms Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them husbands which they had saved alive of the men of Jabesh-Gilead: and yet so they sufficed them not….20) Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards; And see, and, behold, if the men of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every woman her husband of the men of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.


    How was that? I guess the men have nothing to lose being "raped" by the women . The women will be having a hard time "raping" so many men . Luckily the scriptures were written by men. I guess God was really wise.


    God Blessings to all.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Rose is being biased here. If the Bible was written by men so were the Koran, Sutras, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism etc. were almost all written by men. The Koran seems to be more discriminatory of women compared to the Bible yet many Muslim women seems to accept it. The other religions such as Buddhism, Confusion, Taoism seem to be kinder and less violent than Christianity and yet they were written by men. Why are there double standards among religions written by men? If the Bible were to be written by women, will it be any better? Are women less evil than men? Certainly no; both are equally evil. If the Bible were to be written by women based on equal perspectives as written by men according to Rose, we will read more disturbing (and somewhat foolish/hilarious) scriptures:



    God Blessings to all.
    Hi Cheow,

    Oh course I'm being biased! I can't be any other way, I'm a woman and I think like a woman which is precisely the point...women think like women and men think like men. And that is why the Bible is biased toward the male because it was written by MEN!

    Any yes, you are exactly right! The Bible was written by men, and so was the Koran, the Sutras and every other holy book on the planet...

    As I have said to you many times before, it's not a matter of men being more evil than women, or if the Bible would be better if it were written by women...the POINT IS that the Bible was written by male humans, who constructed a god from their own male ideas PERIOD!

    Again, men think like men and women think like women, and that is why the Bible only contains the male perspective, because that is the only perspective men have, and all of the biblical authors were men.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    It looks like I shall have to be the first to respond to Rose's thread. I feel sorry for Rose who appears to be bitter towards God and I think some of this has spilled over to Richard agreeing with Rose's point of view. This is evident from some of the other threads posted by Richard challenging God.
    Good morning David,

    I'm glad you took time to respond, but I'm sorry to see that you have completely missed the point of Rose's post. She did not write a single word that suggested she is "bitter towards God" and I have never written a post "challenging God." Both Rose and I have been talking about what the Bible says about God. It is not "challenging God" to speak truth about what the Bible actually states!

    Now don't worry, I don't take any personal offense, but you should know that it is exceedingly rude and small-minded for you to suggest that I am not thinking for myself, but rather being influenced by Rose. I am a man. I think for myself. Rose and I independently broke free from the false Christian dogmas about the Bible. We took very different paths but came to the same conclusions. Rose, being a woman, is very sensitive to the male bias in the Bible. You read her post so you know that these problems bothered her deeply throughout her walk as a Christian. She said "through all the years I was a Christian there was a constant anguish I felt every time I would encounter a troubling passage in Scripture that violated human rights because I believed so strongly in God." It seems like you just brush off the authenticity of her anguish over these issues. Your answers do not really address any of her concerns. You are just preaching to the choir that already believes to try to cover up the horrors in the Bible. Your explanations seem like a bandaide covering gangrene to me.

    If you ever want anyone but a fellow believer to accept your arguments, you would do well to begin by admitting that there are things in the Bible that are truly horrific. If you can't do that, then you will never convince anyone that you are open to the truth (and that's mighty ironic for a person who claims to be Christian!).

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Technically, God has no gender, maybe instead of the word He we should always say His name instead of 'He' or 'it' which appears disrespectful when we comment about someone in their presence to another person and we do not refer to them by name.
    The Bible consistently refers to God with the male pronoun and says "he" is "father." You don't get much more "male" than that.

    But the "gender" of God is not the real issues. The issue, which folks never seem to "get" despite the fact that Rose has repeated herself a hundred times, is that the BIBLE bears clear signs of a strong MALE BIAS. This comes out in many ways throughout the Bible from the story of the fall to Paul's statements that women should be silent and that they would be "saved" though giving birth to children. Your explanations look like a textbook example of straining at gnats while swalling a camel.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    So why did not God create woman first? I suggest God is regarded as male since in sexual terms between man and a woman, the man passes something to the woman. Man gives and the woman receives. This is the way it is between God and man. God gives and man receives. We can see this everytime somthing is mentioned as coming from Heaven; it is God who is doing the providing.
    Throughout Scripture believers are likened to a female in relation to God as male. The church is the "bride" or "wife" of Christ, etc. I wrote a lot about this in the Bible Wheel book. I thought it was very meaningful, and I still think so. Unfortunately, the meaning is based on a cultural metaphor of male dominance over women which was not only acceptable, but "self-evidently correct" to most people throughout history. But the times they are achangin! Humanity is evolving and people are awakening to the fact that women should not be subject to men in anything. All humans are EQUAL! It's no different than the emancipation of the slaves - another evil practice endorsed by God in the Bible.

    The fact that many Christains reject EQUAL RIGHTS for all humans and attempt to justify the sexism in the Bible shows that their religion is retarding their mental, moral, and spiritual growth. If ever there were a "red flag" that something is wrong with Christianity, this should be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Though Mary the mother of Jesus is not to be venerated, woman as the child-bearing sex is very important to God. God does respect women and we have seen how God has used women to the good to fulfil his purpose. Women characters might be fewer in the Bible, but they are often portrayed as playing a crucial role and appearing greater than men at times. What about Ruth for example? There is a whole book of the Bible with Ruth’s name to it.
    I can't believe that you miss the irony of reducing women to "the child-bearing sex" in your response to Rose. Have you no sense of the reality of the anguish that the Bible has caused women over the millennia?

    The fact that God "used women" in the Bible does nothing to answer the overwhelming male bias displayed in the Bible.

    The cause of the problem is very simple to see. The Bible was written by men at a time when society was entirely sexist. But the times have changed, so now the primitive morality taught in the Bible are seen as abominable and absolutely unacceptible.

    How is it that you can dismiss the authentic anguish that sensative souls feel when they read such things in the Bible? You act like the Bible is just a game and all you need to do is make up excuses to "explain" why it doesn't really mean what it says. But then in the same breath you say that the Bible is supposed to be a moral guide? If it were a guide, it would be correcting us on morality, not we it!

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    On a lighter note for a moment; I listened to a series given by the late Prof. Neiman and in passing he said that the woman is the only female of the species that feels pain during child birth. The reason for the pain is because the child’s head is too large to pass through the birth canal. The explanation Prof. Neiman gave was (and it is better the way he puts it) the woman wanted to have knowledge to know good and evil and so to accommodate the extra knowledge God made the head bigger and that is why Eve suffered the pain of child-birth because the baby's head was made bigger.
    The scientific absurdity of that statement needs no further comment. How anyone could suggest such an idea as an authentic description of human morphology is beyond me.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I have responded to Richard’s thread dealing with the episode in Numbers 31 dealing with the time when the Children of Israel (C of I)took captive the women for the men to take as wives. I explained how this episode is not as barbaric as Rose is trying to make out. The women were not raped, they were taken as wives, they were allowed a period to mourn, they were allowed to go free if for some reason she separated from her husband.
    Oh how very merciful! God ordained that the virgins would be given a whole month to mourn the slaugher of everyone they ever loved before they are forced to submit and spread their legs to the very men who murdered their moms, dads, brothers, sisters, cousins and neighbors. Are you really telling me that you think it is "not barbaric" to force a captured woman to bear children to the enemy? When folks give explanations like this, it only convinces me that the Bible corrupts both the minds and the morals of those who claim it is the inerrant and infallible Word of God.

    And worse ... your assertion that ""they were allowed to go free if for some reason she separated from her husband" completely misrepresents what the LAW OF GOD actually states. It says nothing about the WOMAN having any rights at all! On the contrary, it is all BIASED towards the MALE. If HE finds no "pleasure" in her, he has to let her go because he had sex with her. Remember, she was a VIRGIN and now she is a used woman - worthless in the sexual economy of the ancient world:
    Deuteronomy 21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; 13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled [fucked] her.
    I am mystified that you cannot admit the horror implied by these laws.

    Where is your LOVE man? What is stopping your human heart from feeling and having compassion on others?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Considering that God told the C of I to utterly destroy the people in the land to which He led them, knowing that the people of the land would corrupt His people with idolatry if they did not, the C of I did not obey God and they suffered the consequences. In this episode, the women brought their idolatry with them; I am surprised that the women were not killed along with the men. One thing we do not always appreciate is that God is working to a plan and a timescale. It is like a game of chess; God is working several moves ahead and we do not see the reasons why God does or allows things to happen until we see a later move and then that explains the moves of the past. Hence, I suggest Rose is being short-sighted because she is becoming blinkered and focussing her attention on the negative aspects and blaming God for what is in the first instance was man’s disobedience to God's commands. God has to work around this to bring about his purpose.
    Yeah - a "game of chess" played out in the splattered blood and guts of real people with real feelings, family, hopes and dreams. A "game of chess" played out in geonocidal murder, rape, and the domination of women.

    And why don't you see the inconsistency? If God wanted them killed because they would "corrupt his people with idolatry" why did he command that 32,000 idolatrous virgins should be distributed to his people? That makes no sense at all.

    As for "man's disobedience" being the cause of all these "negative aspects" - this is another typical flaw I see in attempts to justify the actos attributed to God in the Bible. You seem to have forgotten that God is sovereigh and that He Himself set up the whole scene from the Garden on. He didn't have to order the murder of anyone. He had an infinity of other choices he could have made ... I mean, he is supposed to be ALMIGHTY GOD you know! So why does he seem so enamoured by VIOLENCE???? He could have driven out the people any number of ways. He didn't have to CORRUPT HIS PEOPLE by commanding them to be genocidal baby killers and rapists of virgins.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I have kept this short by not inserting a lot of scriptural references that I have given in other threads. The goodness and severity of God is I expect a topic covered elsewhere. I just wanted to balance the argument and trust that Rose, might one day change her mind again and see God in a better light than she is doing at the moment.
    In general, there is no need to insert a lot of Scriptures since we all know what the Bible says. I only feel a need to insert them when it is evident that they are being ignorned.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Rose should stop blaming God for men’s mistakes and men’s disobedience. We cannot say it pleased God to let certain things happen any more than God delighted in animal sacrifices to cover a men’s sin. God can and does mean it when says He does not want to see anyone perish, but that all might be saved. The fault lies with man and man chooses to disobey rather than obey; hence disobedient men and women will perish. If God was not just and He weeds out the sinful from the righteous and allows anyone and everyone into the kingdom, we will have a new world as bad as it is now. God be praised that he has given us all the opportunity to be saved and respond to His invitation to be in the kingdom that He will establish through His Son. God is always at work fulfilling His purpose and that we should be thankful for.


    David
    Again, Rose and I are not "blaming God." We are saying that the things attributed to God in the Bible are morally abominable.

    God did not "let certain things happen." HE COMMANDED THEM and instituted them in his law.

    You underestimate the power of God to redeem people when you say "if God ... allows anyone and everyone into the kingdom, we will have a new world as bad as it is now." That answer trivializes the Gospel as if all a person needs to do is "believe in Jesus" to be "saved" from an eternal hell. If God can save a single sinner, there is no reason he could not save all. And if he is anything like a human parent, he would do all that is needed to save each and every one.

    I would very much enjoy discussing this further with you, but I don't think we will get anywhere until you open yourself to understand how horrific the Bible can seem to people with caring, loving, and living human hearts.

    Normal, healthy, human morality is infinitely greater than much of what is taught in the Bible.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Rose is being biased here. If the Bible was written by men so were the Koran, Sutras, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism etc. were almost all written by men. The Koran seems to be more discriminatory of women compared to the Bible yet many Muslim women seems to accept it. The other religions such as Buddhism, Confusion, Taoism seem to be kinder and less violent than Christianity and yet they were written by men. Why are there double standards among religions written by men? If the Bible were to be written by women, will it be any better? Are women less evil than men? Certainly no; both are equally evil.
    Hey there Cheow,

    Why do you continue to ignore the point of Rose's post? It's been explained many times. The fact that the Bible has a male bias proves that it cannot be the "inerrant and infallible Word of God." That's the point. And since you admit that the Bible has a male bias, it appears you are admitting this point. Or do you believe that the Eternal God inspired a document with a male bias? If so, then how is God any better than men?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    If the Bible were to be written by women based on equal perspectives as written by men according to Rose, we will read more disturbing (and somewhat foolish/hilarious) scriptures:

    Just an example imagining women dominant world:
    Num.31:1 And the LORD spake unto Ms Moses, saying…15-18 And Ms Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the men alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every women among the little ones, and kill every man that hath known woman by lying with her. But all the men children, that have not known a woman by lying with her, keep alive for yourselves….30-35) And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD. And Ms Moses and Ms Eleazar the priestess did as the LORD commanded Ms Moses…And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of men that had not known woman by lying with her.

    Deuteronomy 21:10-11 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a handsome man, and hast a desire unto him, that thou wouldest have him to thy husband;…

    Judges 21:11-12 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every female, and every man that hath lain by woman. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgin men, that had known no woman by lying with any female: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan…..14) And Ms Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them husbands which they had saved alive of the men of Jabesh-Gilead: and yet so they sufficed them not….20) Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards; And see, and, behold, if the men of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every woman her husband of the men of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.


    How was that? I guess the men have nothing to lose being "raped" by the women . The women will be having a hard time "raping" so many men . Luckily the scriptures were written by men. I guess God was really wise.
    Your examples are absurd. They only show that you have no idea what Rose has been talking about. Replacing women for men does not make those verses moral! They would be immoral no matter if it put women over men or vice versa.

    The point is that the Bible teaches immorality as if it were the very Law of God.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Cheow,

    Oh course I'm being biased! I can't be any other way, I'm a woman and I think like a woman which is precisely the point...women think like women and men think like men. And that is why the Bible is biased toward the male because it was written by MEN!

    Any yes, you are exactly right! The Bible was written by men, and so was the Koran, the Sutras and every other holy book on the planet...

    As I have said to you many times before, it's not a matter of men being more evil than women, or if the Bible would be better if it were written by women...the POINT IS that the Bible was written by male humans, who constructed a god from their own male ideas PERIOD!

    Again, men think like men and women think like women, and that is why the Bible only contains the male perspective, because that is the only perspective men have, and all of the biblical authors were men.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Hello my dear,

    I agree that men and women tend to think differently, but I wouldn't say that you are biased because of that. It just makes you more sensative to the horrors of what the Bible teaches about women. I can see the same moral abominations in the Bible and I'm not a woman (as you well know).

    If you have any bias, I would say you are biased towards the truth, albeit through a woman's eyes. But there still is only one truth. The Bible says what it says. No one can do anything about that.

    Contrary to Cheow's parody, the Bible would be filled with love and hugs and flowers if it were written by women.

    Love you!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there Cheow,

    Why do you continue to ignore the point of Rose's post? It's been explained many times. The fact that the Bible has a male bias proves that it cannot be the "inerrant and infallible Word of God." That's the point. And since you admit that the Bible has a male bias, it appears you are admitting this point. Or do you believe that the Eternal God inspired a document with a male bias? If so, then how is God any better than men?
    Same as I would ask of you, why do you always single the Bible? why not other religions, some much more violent against women. Sounds like a bias. You have yet to answer that some religions all written by men shows a kinder and less violent types in contrast to the Bible and Koran. Why the double standards written by men?

    And why does Rose always bring up this subject as if we do not already know? I knew about these atrocities in the Bible decades ago and all have been answered which I have already highlighted in one of my posts:

    1. There are laws which must be upheld by a just God. If breaking of God's commandments means death, then such punishment must be uphold. If the law says that drug traffickers must be hanged, then justice and integrity of the law must be done to uphold it.

    2. Eye for an eye. The enemies of God may have done the same to Israel's men by killing them and raping their women, so now was pay-back time. This will ensure that God's enemies would think twice about doing such atrocities again. This brings up my views of the rape of Nanking; would Chinese soldiers do the same to Japanese women if they were able to capture Tokyo in WW2? Young women then were forced to sleep with their enemies who have killed their parents, husband, siblings and children. I guessed they have no other choice if they were to survive or to save their own relatives and others. Anyway, life must move on. It boosted the morale of the soldiers but demoralized their enemies.

    3. The dire war situation would ensure that Israel's men would have their generations even when they were killed in war. Isn't it worse if young Israeli men died in the war without their genes being passed on? Isn't that one of the reasons why soldiers raped in war? War situations are different from peaceful times; in war guns rule, in peace law rules.

    4. God's command in Genesis to multiply to fill the earth may be one of the reason why young virgins were spared to be wives so that God's people would multiply. Mixing of blood between evil people and God's people may ensure a breed of less evil people. This is a form of ethnic cleansing for the better.

    5. There may be other reasons that we may not have known for His ways and thoughts are higher than us.

    Your examples are absurd. They only show that you have no idea what Rose has been talking about. Replacing women for men does not make those verses moral! They would be immoral no matter if it put women over men or vice versa.
    My point is that women are created for child rearing which is why they have breasts and the birth canal. To put women in other natural roles would be a misfit and unwise; same goes with men. Such misfits will caused more problems imagining men taking over the natural roles of women and women taking over the natural role of men. It's like putting a cat to look after the house or rearing dogs to produce milk. A really wise God indeed!

    The point is that the Bible teaches immorality as if it were the very Law of God.
    I think there are exceptions to the rule; is killing always bad? You and I would have killed Hitler, if given the chance. Is immorality always wrong? You may say that prostituition is immoral but what if it is done to support her children who will otherwise die of starvation or illness?


    God's wisdom is amazing, may we have some.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

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    [QUOTE=CWH;41849]


    3. The dire war situation would ensure that Israel's men would have their generations even when they were killed in war. Isn't it worse if young Israeli men died in the war without their genes being passed on? Isn't that one of the reasons why soldiers raped in war? War situations are different from peaceful times; in war guns rule, in peace law rules.


    God's wisdom is amazing, may we have some.
    Hi Cheow,

    I have one question for you...If it was permissible under God's moral law for Hebrew soldiers to rape women in times of war to pass on their genes, is it still permissible under God's moral law for soldiers to do that, or do you think God's moral laws have changed? Just askin'

    All the best,
    Rose
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