Jeremiah 33:17 - A Failed Prophecy?

[Timmy]

The meaning seems pretty plain to me. When the text says that Enoch "should not see death" it is absolutely equivalent to "would not die." This is just what the words mean. Plain and simple. And it is confirmed by the use of exactly the same Greek phrase in Luke:

Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

If something as plain and simple as this can't be understood, how could anyone hope to understand anything in the Bible?

Aloha Big Kahuna

Yeah, Enoch did die, but he will not see it.
(Of course, what else can you expect from someone who is so focused on seeking God, everything else that is about his living this life falls to the ground?)
Isn't that what is what of what it says about what is not really understood: "translated?"

Synchorozonystically,

Timmy

[Timmy]

Hi Timmy,
I appreciate the education. But honestly, you lost me.
I will give you three choices and you pick if I am close to what you are saying.

A. Enoch unmanifested physically (was not found and God took him.)

B. He "passed over" without losing consciousness. (He did not "see death.")

C. He should not have died,... but did anyway. (This sounds to me like what you are saying but I could be wrong!)

Waiting with baited breath, but take your time.
Bob

Aloha ona gwe waki Bob!

Ok Bob,

i wanna' be a Millionaise!

i think it could possibly be A...
but B seems just as viable,,,
so i could say B...
or it might be A and B together as one thing...
but C does not seem right at all.

So, possibly A
or
possibly B
or possibly both A and B
or A then B
or B then A...

this is really tough.

Can i call a friend?
or us one of my other options?
How about bringing something else altogether into this game...
...something like a D option?




A & B seem close.

Timmy

[Timmy]

Charis' Originally Posted:
"Well first let me admire your new animated avatar, Timmy.
It always seems a shame to me that old avatars and signatures are not retains by the archive in a forum. What does it say please?

i am truly sorry, and that punditty could have been passed up in post #30.
As i am sorry, and i do mean it..you can either say,"I KNOW YOU ARE! NOW WHAT'S YOUR EXCUSE???"
...or otherwise...
...and whatever you decide, here is your real answer:

יֵשׁוּעַ = Y'hoshua
or as an anagram, it is ‎Yeshúa
which has become know
in English to be Jesus

It would be nice if sig.s and av's were kept without additional efforts on our parts, but it's the way of the world wide web.

Making straight paths,
Timmy

[Bob May]

Aloha Big Kahuna

Yeah, Enoch did die, but he will not see it.
(Of course, what else can you expect from someone who is so focused on seeking God, everything else that is about his living this life falls to the ground?)
Isn't that what is what of what it says about what is not really understood: "translated?"

Synchorozonystically,

Timmy

OK, Now I get it. Very cool, I had never seen that before.

Ge 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Enoch stopped being Enoch.
He must increase and I must decrease.
I die daily.
Be ye transformed (translated) by the renewing of you mind. Etc., etc.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

It was Enoch who could not find Enoch!!!

This is so cool.

Thanks Timmy, I know exactly who I will share this with. He will love it.

You made my day,
Bob

[Bob May]

Hey Timmy,

Comparing Heb 11:5 with Col 1:13 the two words for translated are very similar. I don't know Greek but the definitions are almost identical.
Putting the two verses together gives an entirely different meaning and dimension to what Paul says concerning Enoch.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Who ος G3739 hos 270
hath delivered ρυομαι G4506 rhoumai 621
us ημας G2248 hemas 249
from εκ G1537 ek 25
the power εξουσια G1849 exousia 746
of darkness, σκοτος G4655 skotos 860
and και G2532 kai 31
hath translated μεθιστημι G3179 methistemi 622
[us] into εις G1519 eis 215
the kingdom βασιλεια G0932 basileia 259
of his αυτος G0846 autos 971
dear αγαπη G0026 agape 93
Son: υιος G5207 huios 680

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

By faith πιστις G4102 pistis 800
Enoch Ενωχ G1802 Enoch 1455
was translated μετατιθημι G3346 metatithemi 723
that he should ειδω G1492 eido 819
not μη G3361 me 48
see ειδω G1492 eido 819
death; θανατος G2288 thanatos 631
and και G2532 kai 31
was ευρισκω G2147 heurisko 1535
not ου G3756 ou 470
found, ευρισκω G2147 heurisko 1535
because διοτι G1360 dioti 394
God θεος G2316 theos 284
had translated μετατιθημι G3346 metatithemi 723
him: αυτος G0846 autos 971
for γαρ G1063 gar 104
before προ G4253 pro 250
his αυτος G0846 autos 971
translation μεταθεσις G3331 metathesis 770 he had this testimony, μαρτυρεω G3140 martureo 1746
that he pleased ευαρεστεω G2100 euaresteo 1816
God. θεος G2316 theos

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Col 1:13 μεθιστημι methistemi {meth-is'-tay-mee} or (1 Cor. 13:2) μεθιστανω methistano {meth-is-tan'-o} from 3326 and 2476;; v AV - remove 2, put out 1, turn away 1, translate 1; 5 1) to transpose, transfer, remove from one place to another 1a) of change of situation or place 1b) to remove from the office of a steward 1c) to depart from life, to die

Heb 11:5 μετατιθημι metatithemi {met-at-ith'-ay-mee} from 3326 and 5087; TDNT - 8:161,1176; v AV - translate 2, carry over 1, remove 1, change 1, turn 1; 6 1) to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other) 1a) to transfer 1b) to change 1c) to transfer one's self or suffer one's self to be transferred 1c1) to go or pass over 1c2) to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another

Heb 11:5 μεταθεσις metathesis {met-ath'-es-is} from 3346; TDNT - 8:161,1176; n f AV - change 1, translation 1, removing 1; 3 1) transfer: from one place to another 2) to change 2a) of things instituted or established

Bob

[Ps 27:1]

Does anyone else believe this?? Useless to debate it? I can't even comprehend what you are saying.

Hi Bob,

Believe what? That we are not immortal? A lot of people do.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.


Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Ti 6:16 Who(God) only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Etc.

Are you saying that you think Jesus is in heaven with a physical body?

Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them [his] hands and [his] feet.

To answer your question, yes. I believe the plain word and you don't. That is why I said it is useless for us to debate.

So we are to go to a spiritual realm with physical bodies? Don't you think we will be a little overdressed?

Yes, that is why it's called the resurrection. Our bodies will be perfect and probably have powers unknown to us, now. It seems as if Jesus could walk through walls. Jhn 20:19 ¶ Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

And what about those who will not be hurt by the second death? Are their souls not immortal?

See 1 Cor 15 above. I don't believe we have a soul. I believe we are a soul. Dust + Breath of Life = Soul. Just like software + electrical current = program. Nowhere in the bible does it say the soul is immortal. In fact, God will destroy souls in hell. Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I honestly cannot comprehend what you are saying you believe.

Well, then try this.http://www.what-happens-when-we-die.com/

Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This is speaking about Now.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Still future.

And even if it was speaking about some time in the future Paul pretty much explains it will not be in a physical body.

1co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The contrast is natural and spiritual. You are assuming that spiritual means not physical, but that contradicts Luke 24. It is still a body with hands and feet.

Like I said, we interpret the bible differently, so I don't see the point in debating with you.

Wishing you grace and peace,
Steve

[Ps 27:1]

The meaning seems pretty plain to me. When the text says that Enoch "should not see death" it is absolutely equivalent to "would not die." This is just what the words mean. Plain and simple. And it is confirmed by the use of exactly the same Greek phrase in Luke:

Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

If something as plain and simple as this can't be understood, how could anyone hope to understand anything in the Bible?

I'm with you on this, Richard. I still think that Timmy is straining on a gnat and swallowing a camel, but what do I know, it is all (everyone hold their nose) Greek to me.

Didn't the RCC object to the bible being translated in the language of the common people because they thought they would screw up the true meanings of the scripture?

I may have to ask my brother on this text. He has a Phd in linguistics and translated some of the bible in Quechua for the Wycliffe Bible Translators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quechua_languages

Blessings,
Steve

[Bob May]

[QUOTE=Ps 27:1;41740]Hi Bob,

Originally Posted by Bob May
"Does anyone else believe this?? Useless to debate it? I can't even comprehend what you are saying."

Believe what? That we are not immortal? A lot of people do.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.


Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Don't you see that what you are doing here is quoting verses here about unregenerate mankind? This is man's perspective.
Solomon in ecclesiastes was wrestling with the condition of man from a man's perspective.
What was the outcome of all of his searching out wisdom? Vanity of Vanities all is vanity.
Ec 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Again here are the two points of view I was talking about. Do you think everyone "sleeps in the dust?" Do you think some "shall awake?" And do you think we are sleeping in the dust right now? Isn't that what we are made of?

Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:

You left out the part about his Redeemer coming in the latter day...

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Yes, worms destroy our bodies, but it's never been about the bodies.

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The physical body is corruptible. It Rots. That is not the body we are raised in.

1Ti 6:16 Who(God) only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Etc.

Man is also flesh. Body, Soul and Spirit. Man as all three cannot approach to the light. It would destroy the unregenerate body and soul.

Bob said, "Are you saying that you think Jesus is in heaven with a physical body?"

Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them [his] hands and [his] feet.

To answer your question, yes. I believe the plain word and you don't. That is why I said it is useless for us to debate.

Jesus resurrected in a physical body to show he had defeated death. He ate with the disciples to illustrate that it was not an astral double. He was flesh and blood for 40 days after the resurrection.
Then he was caught up "ut of their sight",.."In a cloud." Does that sound physical to you?

Bob said, "So we are to go to a spiritual realm with physical bodies? Don't you think we will be a little overdressed?"

Yes, that is why it's called the resurrection. Our bodies will be perfect and probably have powers unknown to us, now. It seems as if Jesus could walk through walls. Jhn 20:19 ¶ Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

Yes, our bodies will be perfect. That means they won't be physical bodies. Paul could not be any clearer on that point.
1co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Glory is Light. We will have bodies of light. Look at the transfiguration or the many instances of Jesus and angels appearing. They were bodies of light. Not flesh and blood and bone.


Bob said, "And what about those who will not be hurt by the second death? Are their souls not immortal?"

Se 1 Cor 15 above. I don't believe we have a soul. I believe we are a soul. Dust + Breath of Life = Soul. Just like software + electrical current = program. Nowhere in the bible does it say the soul is immortal. In fact, God will destroy souls in hell. Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

So how is the soul preserved blameless if it is not immortal? And, yes I believe what we think we are is our soul. Everything we have gone through in this life. And software is a good analogy. We have to be reprogrammed after we are born of the Spirit.
He restoreth our soul.
The word for soul when God breathed into us when we were "formed", not created is Nepesh. It is the lower animal part of us. But there is also the Ruach (Mental, mind) portion of us and the Neschamah which is even higher.


"Bob said, I honestly cannot comprehend what you are saying you believe."

wll, then try this.http://www.what-happens-when-we-die.com/

I'll take a look.

Bob quoted this, Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

And said this, "This is speaking about Now."

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Still future.

Yes, unless he comes to us one at a time, in which case there have been many who have already experienced the second coming throughout history.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Ac 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Ac 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Ac 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


All the best,
Bob

The contrast is natural and spiritual. You are assuming that spiritual means not physical, but that contradicts Luke 24. It is still a body with hands and feet.

Like I said, we interpret the bible differently, so I don't see the point in debating with you.

Wishing you grace and peace,
Steve

[Charisma]

i am truly sorry, and that punditty could have been passed up in post #30.
As i am sorry, and i do mean it..you can either say,"I KNOW YOU ARE! NOW WHAT'S YOUR EXCUSE???"
...or otherwise...
...and whatever you decide, here is your real answer:

יֵשׁוּעַ = Y'hoshua
or as an anagram, it is ‎Yeshúa
which has become know
in English to be Jesus

It would be nice if sig.s and av's were kept without additional efforts on our parts, but it's the way of the world wide web.

Making straight paths,
Timmy

'Making straight paths', acknowledged.



I wondered if it said 'Jesus'. I really like it anyway. I liked the red flames that were, but, I see they're blue, now.

It takes all sorts, they say!


I'll go find your older post... after tea.

[Ps 27:1]

Hi Bob,

I understand what you're saying, I just see it differently in scripture. Satan told Eve that they would not really die. What did God have to say about that? You are dust and back to dust you are returning. Ezekiel says the soul that sins shall die. I know a lot of people interpret this as only spiritual death. I believe it also means literal death. Cessation of life. Nonexistence. That is why I have no problem with understanding that the wicked are annihilated at the second death. People would tell me that hell just means being totally separated from God. But how does one exist apart from God? Are they the energizer bunnies?

Anyway, we are just going to go in circles with this. Just to let you know, so you don't think I'm being rude, I'm going to bow out of this specific topic with you. I have studied it fairly extensively and I'm happy with my interpretation, as I'm sure you are with yours.

Grace and peace to you through our Savior,

Steve