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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps 27:1 View Post
    Hi Bob,

    I understand what you're saying, I just see it differently in scripture. Satan told Eve that they would not really die. What did God have to say about that? You are dust and back to dust you are returning. Ezekiel says the soul that sins shall die. I know a lot of people interpret this as only spiritual death. I believe it also means literal death. Cessation of life. Nonexistence. That is why I have no problem with understanding that the wicked are annihilated at the second death. People would tell me that hell just means being totally separated from God. But how does one exist apart from God? Are they the energizer bunnies?

    Anyway, we are just going to go in circles with this. Just to let you know, so you don't think I'm being rude, I'm going to bow out of this specific topic with you. I have studied it fairly extensively and I'm happy with my interpretation, as I'm sure you are with yours.

    Grace and peace to you through our Savior,

    Steve
    Hi Steve,

    Adam and Eve did die. That's us. Until we wake up. Our bodies do die, that's a given. And the soul that sins did die at the fall and also that soul level of us will die and be done away with. That is the saving of the soul. That happens as we grow into him. It probably already has happened but it is us realizing what happened at the cross that is the message of the New Testament that is at issue after recieving the Spirit.
    What we believe of as us (soul) is growing in kowledge of him.

    Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    All the best,
    Bob
    Harry Potter,.. "Is this all happening in my head, or is it real?"
    Professor Dumbledor,.. "Of course it's all happening in your head. What makes you think that means it isn't real?"

  2. #42
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    Jeremiah 33:17 - A Failed Prophecy?

    Hey Steve and Bob,

    The way I see it is, that the soul is either being restored and will be given a resurrection body, or, the soul and body are destroyed.

    I see that the body goes back to dust, but, at that point in time the essence of who we became is our soul - is my impression. I know the spirit returns to God but I'm not sure at what point in time. Is it at the moment of death? I'm unclear, because doesn't a living soul need a spirit?

    Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


    Here are three interesting verses.

    Numbers 19:11 He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days. {man: Heb. soul of man}

    1 Peter 4:19
    Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

    Revelation 6:9
    And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  3. #43
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    Jeremiah 33:17 - A Failed Prophecy?

    Hi Timmy,

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Hi Charis!

    "condemnation"
    Gen. 18.25 = John 5.21
    Is death mercy or condemnation or both? Whatever, death is not "decision" / or better stated "non-decision"
    That verse is not talking about condemnation. It is talking about determining something.
    I hope you can manage without my original comments from p3.

    You're saying (I think) that the determination of condemnation (or not) is what you meant by 'decision'. Did I 'get' that?

    You ask, 'is death mercy or condemnation or both?' Methinks with regard to 'death', it depends to whose you are referring, especially in the light of what you made of my comment about no-one in the OT seeming to be dead, but then in the NT everyone is dead.

    First, we have to decide if an OT saint also starts out dead, and is redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, therefore, the condemnation due to him/her is averted by the mercy of God in Christ Jesus. This would seem to fit with Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    One might assume that the time of their being made perfect is the same as ours, were it not for Jesus saying, Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err'.

    (If I may say so, I think this is something to do with I AM, and, Today is the day of salvation. That: eternity is always now, whenever 'now' is.)

    Everyone everywhere since Adamah is dead in sin.
    Please know that this is what I believe, too. But, when one reads the OT, the emphasis is totally different from in the NT, possibly because of the immense narrative of the people who by the epistle to the Hebrews states in 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

    What do you make of:
    Ezek. 18.20 "The soul[=life living] that sinning, it shall die
    with Rom. 3.23 "All are continually sinning..."???
    with Eccl. 7.20 " For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not."
    with Heb. 9.27 "It is appointed unto man once to die, and after that the judgment...
    ...all in relation to one another compared to Jn. 5.21-24?

    Timmy
    John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

    22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


    I love it!

    If you want to discuss this further, please reply.

    I have the feeling this thread has run somewhat amock from the OP but, it's all been most interesting!




    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    OK, Now I get it. Very cool, I had never seen that before.

    Ge 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
    Enoch stopped being Enoch.
    He must increase and I must decrease.
    I die daily.
    Be ye transformed (translated) by the renewing of you mind. Etc., etc.

    Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    It was Enoch who could not find Enoch!!!

    This is so cool.
    Thanks Timmy, I know exactly who I will share this with. He will love it.

    You made my day...
    OICU closerly C some of what ICUC

    Immer auf die Höfflichkeitsform so-wie-so:
    Ihrer willkommen. ... und Sie Herr, haben meinen Morgen zum Nachmittag gemacht. Das ist so grossartig grossartig dass ich konnte ihnen dabei helfen, mein freund. Es ist so gut, zu begreifen und zu finden, dass Ihnen durch bloss einen Hinweis geholfen werden kann.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Hey Timmy,

    Comparing Heb 11:5 with Col 1:13 the two words for translated are very similar. I don't know Greek but the definitions are almost identical.
    Putting the two verses together gives an entirely different meaning and dimension to what Paul says concerning Enoch.

    Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    hath translated μεθιστημι G3179 methistemi
    This word in this passage means: to have copied one "(pro)noun" from one objective format onto another objective format. It is like when a song is recomposed to be played in another key, so that the initial song in the key it was first written in is basically obsolete, invalidated,"dead"




    was translated μετατιθημι G3346 metatithemi 723


    Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    Col 1:13 μεθιστημι methistemi {meth-is'-tay-mee} or (1 Cor. 13:2) μεθιστανω methistano {meth-is-tan'-o} from 3326 and 2476;; v AV - remove 2, put out 1, turn away 1, translate 1; 5 1) to transpose, transfer, remove from one place to another 1a) of change of situation or place 1b) to remove from the office of a steward 1c) to depart from life, to die

    Heb 11:5 μετατιθημι metatithemi {met-at-ith'-ay-mee} from 3326 and 5087; TDNT - 8:161,1176; v AV - translate 2, carry over 1, remove 1, change 1, turn 1; 6 1) to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other) 1a) to transfer 1b) to change 1c) to transfer one's self or suffer one's self to be transferred 1c1) to go or pass over 1c2) to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another

    Heb 11:5 μεταθεσις metathesis {met-ath'-es-is} from 3346; TDNT - 8:161,1176; n f AV - change 1, translation 1, removing 1; 3 1) transfer: from one place to another 2) to change 2a) of things instituted or established

    Bob
    Yes, this is right for metatithemi, yet the root words (as previously posted) explain the diacritics synonymous with the diacritics in the Genesis passage.


    Shalom,

    Timmy
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  5. #45
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    Hi all, Here's the way I'm looking at it at the moment. This whole Enoch thing changes everything. It deepens things. I have been reading a book called What is Self. This fits right in Death of Ego and then death of self etc. Enoch did not see death just as we as sons and daughters of Adam didn't see that they had died. Ask anyone and they will tell you they are alive. That is because they are comparing themselves among themselves (Paul said that was not wise.) and everyone agrees that they are alive. They are buying the great lie of Satan. "Thou shalt not surely die." Ok, so we we didn't notice that we died. That is the "First Death" That was the death of our spirit or connection with the Father. The second death is the death of our Soul, Ego or Self. Those that hear the voice of Jesus and believe on Him who sent him are written in the book of life. Those will not be hurt by the second death, the death of the Self or soul or ego. It has nop power over them because they have been living in the Spirit. Those who are written in he book of Life are not judged. There is nothing to Judge. Just as Adam/Mankind does not notice the death the came at the tree of good and evil, both Enoch and we don't notice the death of what we consider our selves. Just some thoughts, Bob
    Harry Potter,.. "Is this all happening in my head, or is it real?"
    Professor Dumbledor,.. "Of course it's all happening in your head. What makes you think that means it isn't real?"

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Hi all, Here's the way I'm looking at it at the moment. This whole Enoch thing changes everything. It deepens things. I have been reading a book called What is Self. This fits right in Death of Ego and then death of self etc. Enoch did not see death just as we as sons and daughters of Adam didn't see that they had died. Ask anyone and they will tell you they are alive. That is because they are comparing themselves among themselves (Paul said that was not wise.) and everyone agrees that they are alive. They are buying the great lie of Satan. "Thou shalt not surely die." Ok, so we we didn't notice that we died. That is the "First Death" That was the death of our spirit or connection with the Father. The second death is the death of our Soul, Ego or Self. Those that hear the voice of Jesus and believe on Him who sent him are written in the book of life. Those will not be hurt by the second death, the death of the Self or soul or ego. It has nop power over them because they have been living in the Spirit. Those who are written in he book of Life are not judged. There is nothing to Judge. Just as Adam/Mankind does not notice the death the came at the tree of good and evil, both Enoch and we don't notice the death of what we consider our selves. Just some thoughts, Bob
    Hi Bob

    I will just add this thought to what you are saying. In the physical state I am, I do not regard myself as having died and do not know it (if this is what you are saying). In a spritual sense I can understand what Paul says when we are baprized into Christ; (Romans 6:8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Baptism signifies that the old man (that we were) also spoken of by Paul symbollicaly dies when they submegered in the waters of baptism. As Paul goes on to explain we rise out of the waters of baptism to a new life in Christ. We live in Christ (not physicall, but spiritually) and having put off the old man we put on the qualtities of the new man. We are swopping one set of characteristics for a better set. All the characteristics are part of man and it is up to us to control our nature and dispostion to sin by not yielding to our self will. We have to in effect kill that off as Jesus successfully did. We cannot say, that Jesus was incapable of having the bad charactersitics than man has, it was just that Jesus did not yield to thoughts, temptations that would lead him to sin. Jesus has shown us what the perfect man should be like and how we are to conduct our lives. It is our choice whether to obey or not whether we believe God or not, or whether we want to commit adultery or not. We have the choice to do whatever man is capable of. In so doing, we can easily earn the wages of sin that is death.

    In the natural course of events we die once but as Paul says; spritually; " I die daily" (1 Corinthians 15:31). That is what we have to understand in how else we can die, if not naturally.


    Just my two pennyworth.


    David

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hi Bob

    I will just add this thought to what you are saying. In the physical state I am, I do not regard myself as having died and do not know it (if this is what you are saying). In a spritual sense I can understand what Paul says when we are baprized into Christ; (Romans 6:8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Baptism signifies that the old man (that we were) also spoken of by Paul symbollicaly dies when they submegered in the waters of baptism. As Paul goes on to explain we rise out of the waters of baptism to a new life in Christ.
    Hi David,
    The physical sense is the going through the motions of water baptism. But John says that nothing is given unless given by God. I am not speaking about the physical or a ceremony.
    Think deeper. Esau may be considered the mind of the fleshly lusts.
    But Jacob is the "Old Man." Jacob means seeking after God. But when Jacob sees God face to face at Peniel his name changes to Israel Favor (Grace) with God and Man.
    Jacob is still trying to do something himself that he is incapable of doing. That is us. Our soul. Jacob is an improvement over Esau in that he is trying to do right. But he is "missing it" because he thinks he can do it by his own strength. That is us.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    We live in Christ (not physicall, but spiritually) and having put off the old man we put on the qualtities of the new man. We are swopping one set of characteristics for a better set. All the characteristics are part of man and it is up to us to control our nature and dispostion to sin by not yielding to our self will. We have to in effect kill that off as Jesus successfully did.
    Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
    Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

    If it is up to us to control our nature we are lost. Jesus said all that he did and said were the Father's doing.
    Jesus never had to deal with Jacob because when he was at the age of responsibilty 12/13 to the law he was already Israel.
    Lu 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
    Lu 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    We cannot say, that Jesus was incapable of having the bad charactersitics than man has, it was just that Jesus did not yield to thoughts, temptations that would lead him to sin. Jesus has shown us what the perfect man should be like and how we are to conduct our lives. It is our choice whether to obey or not whether we believe God or not, or whether we want to commit adultery or not. We have the choice to do whatever man is capable of. In so doing, we can easily earn the wages of sin that is death.
    What you are describing here is being under the law. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil,..wages,.. do good, get good do evil get evil,.. blessings and cursings.

    Now this is what I am getting at. With the mentality you are describing (All of us indulge in this) we are constantly looking at ourselves.

    What is self consciousness? The book by Bernadette Roberts is very good. It is called What is Self? In it she describes the death of Ego and the death of Self.
    She describes that the death of Ego is only the beginning of learning. And that the death of Self is a much deeper experience.
    Self is the folding of consciousness in order to behold ourselves and it is something that only man as a creature is capable of.
    She also describes that the only way that you know that it has happened is looking back and realizing that something is missing. You do not see it take place.

    This fits with Enoch was translated that he did not See Death.
    It also fits with Jesus parable of the Kingdom of heaven.
    Mr 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
    Mr 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.

    Enoch died not having recieved the promise because Jesus had not yet died on the cross and the Kingdom was not yet at hand.
    That Promise was reserved for US.

    Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    In the natural course of events we die once but as Paul says; spritually; " I die daily" (1 Corinthians 15:31). That is what we have to understand in how else we can die, if not naturally.
    We die by believing the promises. Not by controlling our behavior.
    Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
    Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
    Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

    Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
    Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
    Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Our "selves" keep trying to pull us back under the law. It is the words (Seeds) of Promise that grow into the "awareness" of the Kingdom of God that we are already in. We sleep and rise (awaken) night and day.
    Jacob, Israel, Jacob, Israel. Adn the seed (word) springs and grows up. We knoweth not how.

    All the best,
    Bob
    Harry Potter,.. "Is this all happening in my head, or is it real?"
    Professor Dumbledor,.. "Of course it's all happening in your head. What makes you think that means it isn't real?"

  8. #48
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    Hi Bob

    At last there is nothing you have written in your last post to me replying to my two pennyworth that I disagree with.

    If it is up to us to control our nature we are lost. Jesus said all that he did and said were the Father's doing.
    Yes, we are lost if we do not have some guide. As it is recorded in Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps

    Good chatting with you Bob

    David

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hi Bob

    At last there is nothing you have written in your last post to me replying to my two pennyworth that I disagree with.



    Yes, we are lost if we do not have some guide. As it is recorded in Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps

    Good chatting with you Bob

    David
    Hey David, Just keep on beleving the promises. That's how we keep growing in faith. It's all a gift and the more we learn from scripture the more there is to learn. And the more we get revealed to us. Al the best to you, Bob
    Harry Potter,.. "Is this all happening in my head, or is it real?"
    Professor Dumbledor,.. "Of course it's all happening in your head. What makes you think that means it isn't real?"

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