Jeremiah 33:17 - A Failed Prophecy?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Jeremiah 33:17 "For thus says the LORD: 'David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18 'nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.' " 19 ¶ And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 20 "Thus says the LORD: 'If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, 21 'then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. 22 'As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.' "

Is there a man sitting on the throne of David of the house of Israel?

Are there priests and Levites offering burnt offerings before the Lord?

Day and night continue every day and night ... where are the Levites and their offerings?

Does the Bible contain false prophecies?

[David M]

Jeremiah 33:17 "For thus says the LORD: 'David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18 'nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.' " 19 ¶ And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 20 "Thus says the LORD: 'If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, 21 'then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. 22 'As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.' "

Is there a man sitting on the throne of David of the house of Israel?

Are there priests and Levites offering burnt offerings before the Lord?

Day and night continue every day and night ... where are the Levites and their offerings?

Does the Bible contain false prophecies?

Hi Richard
I will make a quick comment to be the first to respond.

As I see it, the actual throne of David has never lasted in Jerusalem. The three overturnings of Jerusalem that have been mentioned in another thread are times when the throne did not continue.

This does not change the line of descendancy. The throne of David in Jerusalem continues through the line of descendancy. When Jesus returns he will be taken up his positiion on the throne.
The promise to David was and still is;
2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;


We have to wait for this day to come though as you know some claim that Jesus is sitting on the throne now and is ruling from Heaven; with this, I do not agree.

Of course if you say that Jesus is God, then it would be God sitting on the throne and your question is; "Is there a man sitting on the throne of David of the house of Israel? And I would say, Yes, in the time to come and that man is Jesus.

Its difficult not to introduce another subject of discussion here as we have going at the moment in another thread. I have to say this now as this is another example of Jesus, the man (the Son of God). It is difficult for me to get away from this understanding when I have to reconcile these verses to Jesus. Others do not quote these references to support their understanding of the divine nature that Jesus now has following his resurrection.


David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard
I will make a quick comment to be the first to respond.

As I see it, the actual throne of David has never lasted in Jerusalem. The three overturnings of Jerusalem that have been mentioned in another thread are times when the throne did not continue.

This does not change the line of descendancy. The throne of David in Jerusalem continues through the line of descendancy. When Jesus returns he will be taken up his positiion on the throne.
The promise to David was and still is;
2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;


We have to wait for this day to come though as you know some claim that Jesus is sitting on the throne now and is ruling from Heaven; with this, I do not agree.

Of course if you say that Jesus is God, then it would be God sitting on the throne and your question is; "Is there a man sitting on the throne of David of the house of Israel? And I would say, Yes, in the time to come and that man is Jesus.

Its difficult not to introduce another subject of discussion here as we have going at the moment in another thread. I have to say this now as this is another example of Jesus, the man (the Son of God). It is difficult for me to get away from this understanding when I have to reconcile these verses to Jesus. Others do not quote these references to support their understanding of the divine nature that Jesus now has following his resurrection.


David

Hi David,

I'm very confused by your response. It seems you are saying that the actual words written are meaningless. When Jeremiah says that there would always be priests and Levites to offer sacrifices, it doesn't mean anything like that? It doesn't matter that there are no priests and Levites offering sacrifices?

If we cannot believe things written as plainly and as explicitly as the promise that there would always be priests and Levites offering sacrifices, how then can we believe anything the Bible says?

All the best,

Richard

[David M]

Hi David,

I'm very confused by your response. It seems you are saying that the actual words written are meaningless. When Jeremiah says that there would always be priests and Levites to offer sacrifices, it doesn't mean anything like that? It doesn't matter that there are no priests and Levites offering sacrifices?

If we cannot believe things written as plainly and as explicitly as the promise that there would always be priests and Levites offering sacrifices, how then can we believe anything the Bible says?

All the best,

Richard

All I am saying Richard is that as long as Jerusalem and the the throne was set up, then there was someone to sit on the throne. There is no throne at the moment but there will be when Jesus returns. We are told that he will rule from Jerusalem and sit on the throne of David.

In the same way, as long as the temple was in Jerusalem and the temple was in operation there were enough of Levites of the tribe to offer the sacrifices. God is not saying at there would not be periods when the throne would not be established in Jerusalem or when sacrifices would not be offered

God says his oath and covenant with David will not be broken and I do not see that it has.

At the times of the jews going into captivity this was a period of disruption. There would come a time when animal sacrifices would not be required. When the law of Moses was superceded in the New Testament in the blood of Christ, animal sacrifices were done away. Up until then, I do not see that God broke His promise concerning the Levites and priests. Now in Jesus we have a continual High Priest sitting at God's right hand.


David

[Brother Les]

Do you gentlemen understand that the House of Israel is not the Jews or Jerusalem/Judah..... but the Northern House of Ephraim/Israel. Jeremiah says who sits on the throne of Ephraim/Israel.

Jer 33:14 ¶ Behold, the dayscome , saith the LORD , that I will performthat good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.


Jer 33:15 In those days, and at that time , will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land .

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Do you gentlemen understand that the House of Israel is not the Jews or Jerusalem/Judah..... but the Northern House of Ephraim/Israel. Jeremiah says who sits on the throne of Ephraim/Israel.

Jer 33:14 ¶ Behold, the dayscome , saith the LORD , that I will performthat good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.


Jer 33:15 In those days, and at that time , will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land .

The term "house of Israel" is ambiguous. It can refer to either the northern ten tribes, or to "all Israel" - meaning the twelve tribes. By the first century when the NT was written, the distinction between the two houses was completely lost, and everyone under the first covenant was simply called a "Jew." This is confirmed in Hebrews 8 which quoted Jeremiah 31:

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel [IS THE NEW COVENANT ONLY WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL?] after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Obviously, the New Covenant was not made only with the "house of Israel" (the ten northern tribes)! There is no meaningful distinction between "Jews" and "Israel" in the NT.

[Timmy]

This term "House of Israel" is ambiguous. It can refer to either the northern ten tribes, or to "all Israel" - meaning the twelve tribes. . .

G'day Big Kahuna!

The following are general rules to help in understanding this issue. They are not an end all in all decisive criterion (excepting the aside mentioned at the end of this text).

The "house of israel" is refering to two houses/thresholds within one house/threshold, the forebearers being Rachael and Leah.

Unless otherwise specified within the context of the text, refering to specific elders/tribes, house of Leah or Rachael, or kingdom, USUALLY it refers to the whole house.

In deference to the fact that various prophets often and usually ministered to one of the two houses under the one house, the notion of ambiguity is more often than not resolved in understanding which kingdom where each prophets ministry was centered. Of these prophets, when they are refering to the other kingdom as well , it is usually prefaced by "THE WHOLE."

One example of this, is that of Elijah and Elisha. When Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind, Elisha remained in the ten tribal regions to minister there. We see Elijah wrote a letter to Joram of Judah approximately seven years following this incident. ( II Chron. 21)


On an aside to this above point:
Some say that Elijah is in heaven, but this stands in distinct contradiction to Jesus' words in Jn.3.13, "No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven – the Son of Man."

Also, people misconstrue what actually occured with Enoch, saying he never died. Yet in reference to the ancients, Enoch being one of a few mentioned, Heb. 11.13 says, "THESE ALL DIED in faith without receiving the things promised, but they saw them in the distance and welcomed them and acknowledged that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth."

Hope this info helps a bit,

Timmy

[Richard Amiel McGough]

G'day Big Kahuna!

The following are general rules to help in understanding this issue. They are not an end all in all decisive criterion (excepting the aside mentioned at the end of this text).

The "house of israel" is refering to two houses/thresholds within one house/threshold, the forebearers being Rachael and Leah.

Unless otherwise specified within the context of the text, refering to specific elders/tribes, house of Leah or Rachael, or kingdom, USUALLY it refers to the whole house.

In deference to the fact that various prophets often and usually ministered to one of the two houses under the one house, the notion of ambiguity is more often than not resolved in understanding which kingdom where each prophets ministry was centered. Of these prophets, when they are refering to the other kingdom as well , it is usually prefaced by "THE WHOLE."

Hail to thee, Oh Tim-O-thy!

I agree for the most part. But even when there are apparent distinctions between the two houses, they are often conflated even within the same context. Case in point:

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. 35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. 37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

See that? In the space of three verses, the phrase "house of Israel" is used in two entirely different ways! No wonder no one can make any sense out of the Bible. It's totally confused.

On an aside to this above point:
Some say that Elijah is in heaven, but this stands in distinct contradiction to Jesus' words in Jn.3.13, "No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven – the Son of Man."

Scripture plainly states that Elijah ascended to heaven.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

The verses contradict each other, so you have to choose which you want to accept at "face value" and which you want to reinterpret. Personally, I see no reason to believe either are literally true.

Also, people misconstrue what actually occured with Enoch, saying he never died. Yet in reference to the ancients, Enoch being one of a few mentioned, Heb. 11.13 says, "THESE ALL DIED in faith without receiving the things promised, but they saw them in the distance and welcomed them and acknowledged that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth."

Well now! That's interesting. You have found another blatant contradiction in Scripture.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises,

The text says that Enoch both did and did not die! I do believe that is one of the most direct contradictions I have ever seen in Scripture.

Very interesting comments! Thanks,

Richard

[Timmy]

Hail to thee, Oh Tim-O-thy!

Such enthuse for a barefoot child such as this little two seems abysmal and unfathomable, yet greatly appreciated, NTL. Then again, maybe this stands in accord with the Wik defn.="...a form of solid precipitation. It consists of balls or irregular lumps of ice, each of which is referred to as a hail stone.

Be that as it is or is not, me thinks we should be the ones saying, "Hail to thee Sir Richard the RAM-hearted and thy B.W.V.(t.m.) with Thee infamous B.W.V.F.(t.m.) without this B.W.V.F.A.(t.m.). . .and last but not least, we shall nary forgeitan thy Work on the Tome from which all this has grown.

Greetings bakatcha BIG Kahuna!

It is hoped the reduction of Timmy's proclivity towards playing with the fonts and colors and text sizes and whatnots in posting has become subdued enough to your taste. Hanging upside down in my closet tends to cause Timmy to think he is free to play unfettered and can get away with whatever he likes. You do not know how many times the sunlight has since been braved to slap his fingers, just give him a smack down, or a good dose of Electro-EMotive Therapy with my brand-spanking new 93,000 v. taser.
(It's just so fun to watch him shake and twitch and squirm and convulse, i might find just cause to interrupt hanging upside down in my closet more often. Rodney King has never felt a beat like that.)

I agree for the most part. But even when there are apparent distinctions between the two houses, they are often conflated even within the same context. Case in point:

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. 35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. 37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

See that? In the space of three verses, the phrase "house of Israel" is used in two entirely different ways! No wonder no one can make any sense out of the Bible. It's totally confused.

i agree for the most part too, as your quote of Jerimyahu bears out. Yet, they were not confused about what it was saying when written.

The thing is, Judah considered themselves seperate from the other ten; not to mentions Yusef's kinden, Ephraim and Menassah.

It's seen alot of work went into the above and we love the bright and shiny, almost flashing colors. Sad there is not time for it's implications presently...but it is first thing to do on the to do list that should recieve a big todo when done, whenever we determine to draw near to Cyberia hopefully aft a fortnight less twelve.

Your answer deserves better response than i even want to write right now, but there is a site that was searched out and found that will help clarify many misunderstandings, and as well, can provide further details into Israel's history up to today. Though there is a strong tendency currently towards scepticism...hey, where there's smoke, it does not come without fire...so here goes:
http://www.israelite.info/

Please note particularily down the not rightbut RATHER LEFT side of this first page, about three quotes down AND to gain specific bearing of what is wished to be clarified. In the same vein, to promote interest in this site, a snippet of text taken from the first page (as well, thinking of Lotus Feet BTW) is provided for perusal:
The word, 'Jezreel,' has a double meaning of sowing or scattering, yet the latter meaning is often neglected by many commentaries, who thus fail to see that Ephraim-Israel did not return to Canaan, but traveled far afield in her exile down to the present day.

The New Testament treatment of Hosea’s tremendous prophecy in chapter one, verse ten was given by the Apostle Paul in Romans 9:25-26. Paul quoted this to show that Israel’s exile, her 'sowing in the earth' still continued to that time, and that Israel’s restoration still lay in the future. Some expositors try to spiritualize this, but since the spiritual fulfillment of prophecy parallels and augments the physical fulfillment, Israel’s physical exile must have still continued to the time of Christ.

Has no one noticed the incongruity of giving Judah’s prophecies a literal, physical fulfillment, while limiting Ephraim-Israel’s prophecies to the spiritual realm? In actual fact, the physical and spiritual realms parallel one another as a necessary double witness (Dt. 19:15; Mt. 18:16; 2 Cor. 13:1).

Scripture plainly states that Elijah ascended to heaven.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

The verses contradict each other, so you have to choose which you want to accept at "face value" and which you want to reinterpret. Personally, I see no reason to believe either are literally true.

...unless we keep in mind that there are three heavens and understand that this is the 1st heaven=Urth'z atmosphere.

Well now! That's interesting. You have found another blatant contradiction in Scripture.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises,

The text says that Enoch both did and did not die! I do believe that is one of the most direct contradictions I have ever seen in Scripture.

SHOULD not see death IS NOT "DID not see death" and since this is in the future tense, personally it is assumed to mean the second death after resurrection and not the first; however, Saducees cannot see this...or can they???

Very interesting comments! Thanks,

Richard

i have to bring out the things that stupendously intrigue Timmy, or else probably only bored and boring people would read Timmy's boring posts. See, he is intrigued by too many things that are of little or no interest to many.

As that is, with scipture, believing it infallible, if seeming errors or mistakes are found, there is this incessant chase ensued until the answer comes. With one such problem found in the scriptures, it took 2.5 years to find the answer, and lost alot of friends and jobs in the process once becoming a virtual obsession. i just think that i have not been able to gather all the facts yet if there is something that seems contradictory. (Whether or not that resolution in this mind at least is correct or not sometimes is another story and another obsession resulting.)

Sometimes obsesssed with intrigue
and WAKA WAKA eh eh,

Timmy

[Bob May]

Jeremiah 33:17 "For thus says the LORD: 'David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18 'nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.' " 19 ¶ And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 20 "Thus says the LORD: 'If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, 21 'then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. 22 'As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.' "

Is there a man sitting on the throne of David of the house of Israel?

Yes, lots of them.

Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Lu 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Are there priests and Levites offering burnt offerings before the Lord?

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Re 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Day and night continue every day and night ... where are the Levites and their offerings?

Jeremiah's prophecy is obviously about the New Covenant.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

1pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Does the Bible contain false prophecies?

[/QUOTE]

Yes.

2pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Bob