7,000 years is God's timescale to restore the earth.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

My previous job required 2 days of travel every two weeks, back when life was a whole lot simpler. I'm glad I don't travel today.

I still get miffed when I have to take off my shoes, but really haven't had any significant bother other than that. I've flown a few times in the last couple years and it's been fast and easy.

I think the analogy is whether it's a good reason to reject delusions, -- whether induced by a defective brain, or a drug induced brain.

Why do you assume that altered states of consciousness are "delusional?"

Serious researchers have found them to be very helpful in scientific problem solving, and psychologists have used them to help people recover from trauma.

The only double standard is whether GOD would that we be clear minded, or drug induced. And where HE demonstrates the former, whether we should abhor the latter.

You seem to forget that God's prophets see visions just like those induced by certain substances. And they tended to wander around hairy and sometimes naked - if you saw a biblical prophet today you might well think him mad or tripping.

Yeah, I didn't intend to divert the discussion, but simply wanted to affirm that GOD would that we be clear minded.

1 Thess 5:6-8
6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

I think being "clear minded" is the way we should be in general. But I dream every night, and I see a lot of benefits from altered states of consciousness. You just shouldn't go driving when exploring your inner spaces, of course.

With Blessings to You and Hours!

Thanks!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The Bible clearly instructs us that

darkness was over the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This took place before

God said, Let there be light:

So, is it too much to suppose that God did something before He established the principles and bounds of space-time ? I think he shaped 7 more dimensions than just the three that are fully unfurled.

How is it that you "believe" that God was forming 7 other dimensions than just the three that are "fully unfurled?" The Bible says nothing about any such "dimensions" and the only reason you would think such a thing (as far as I can tell) is because some folks have heard about those "unfurled dimensions" from string theory. It sounds like you "believe" in modern science! But if that were the case, why would you believe in something like string theory but reject all the other scientific facts (such as the age of the universe, evolution, geology that says there was no global flood, etc.) which contradict the Bible?

Being space-time people how can we begin to understand this "movement" God made upon the face of the waters ? It's reasonable to suppose that the first few verses of the Bible are prophetic utterances, if you imagine they are timeless and they permeate all of creation. It's like God planted a seed in nothingness and this seed is the foundation upon which all things can be established.

Why did God say there was a "firmament" dividing the waters? There is no such thing. It was part of the mythological cosmology of the Ancient Near East. Why should anyone believe it?

One must first believe in a thing before one can see the truth it includes.

Here's the thing. As we better understand the nature of prophecy we better perceive the seed. Do you see? The scriptures are like a faith substrate, with endless utility. What you get from it in terms of enlightenment, fulfillment, and nourishment depends on what you input.

The Bible wheel give us a huge clue as to how this is done.

There is an amazing connection between the sevenfold symmetry of the Canon Wheel, the sevenfold structure of the Menorah, and the seven days of Creation. It's all very plain and obvious. And the "unfolding seed" concept is very cool. The problem is that folks take Genesis as a literal historical narrative of a sequence of actions that actually happened in history. That cannot be correct.

Great chatting!

Richard

[Edward Goodie]

One little problem: The universe is 13.7 Billion years old. It's only the earth that is about 4.5 billion years old. So the numbers don't add up like you suggest.

The source of this error is pretty obvious. It was caused by believing the first verse of the Bible, which says that the earth was created "in the beginning." That's not true! The earth formed about 8.8 billion years after the "beginning."

Just goes to show, yet again, that the Bible is not a science book.

You are quite right, RAM. The Bible is not a science book; it is a book of redemption...
Besides, Genesis 1 isn't about the creation of the planets (strange how the other planets were accidentally left out), it is about the creation of covenant in temple language. It has nothing to do with the creation of the universe. Hence a non-universe ending event as well...

Hey Ram! Want some interesting reading? Try THIS THREAD.

[Engram1]

I'm not interested in playing your games, but I don't mind helping out. I too use to have an insatiable desire to rationalize everything to death. I suggest you research string theory, self-reference, and strange loops for starters. Maybe then your rational aspect will be satiated and a door will open to your compassionate aspect. If that happens look to the Cross. Also, don't forget that the spirit God gave you can only guide you so far and then you'll need the Holy Spirit. Just ask your local Bible preaching church how to get Him. By the way, you are not the host of this forum, God is. Also, joy is better than happenstance because one can joy in suffering. Also, don't think that God can't draw the spirit you have back from your soul forever.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I'm not interested in playing your games, but I don't mind helping out. I too use to have an insatiable desire to rationalize everything to death. I suggest you research string theory, self-reference, and strange loops for starters. Maybe then your rational aspect will be satiated and a door will open to your compassionate aspect. If that happens look to the Cross. Also, don't forget that the spirit God gave you can only guide you so far and then you'll need the Holy Spirit. Just ask your local Bible preaching church how to get Him. By the way, you are not the host of this forum, God is. Also, joy is better than happenstance because one can joy in suffering. Also, don't think that God can't draw the spirit you have back from your soul forever.

Games?

Now before you think to "educate" me about string theory, self-reference, and strange loops, maybe you should realize that I leaned about those things and much more when I got my degrees in Mathematics and Physics ... especially when I was working on a Ph.D. that focused on the Problem of Temporal Irreversibility in Quantum Physics.

You are the one playing a "game' when you think to try to read modern physics into the Bible.

And how is it possible that you could think to suggest I go to a "local Bible preaching to Church" to learn "how to get Him"? I was a fundamentalist Christian for over a decade dude! I know all about what it means to "get Jesus." I could quote every word that would be said by a "Bible preaching church" before going there. And I could show why they are wrong in so many of their beleifs.

Cliche's like "God is the host of this forum" don't mean anything at all. If it had any meaning, you could point to something that "God" did as "host." As it is, the world roles on as if there were no God (of the kind you profess, anyway). If the word "host" has any meaning, then I'm the host. Of course, you could say that God is the "host" of everything in the universe, but that makes him the "host" of the local strip joint, and I don't think that's something you want to imply, is it?

A little logic goes a long way ...

[Richard Amiel McGough]

You are quite right, RAM. The Bible is not a science book; it is a book of redemption...
Besides, Genesis 1 isn't about the creation of the planets (strange how the other planets were accidentally left out), it is about the creation of covenant in temple language. It has nothing to do with the creation of the universe. Hence a non-universe ending event as well...

Hey Ram! Want some interesting reading? Try THIS THREAD.

Hey there Edward,

I read Beyond Creation Science and I think there is a lot of merit in the "covenant creation" view but it seems to push things a little too far and I don't have any confidence that it is correct. One big problem is that it implies that the God is a really bad communicator since it took two thousand years for folks to figure out what the first chapter of His Book is really all about!

That looks like an interesting thread but it's too long for me to dig into right now. Did anyone deal with the passages where God explicitly says he was married to Israel, and her husband?

Best,

Richard

[Edward Goodie]

Hey there Edward,

I read Beyond Creation Science and I think there is a lot of merit in the "covenant creation" view but it seems to push things a little too far and I don't have any confidence that it is correct. One big problem is that it implies that the God is a really bad communicator since it took two thousand years for folks to figure out what the first chapter of His Book is really all about!

That looks like an interesting thread but it's too long for me to dig into right now. Did anyone deal with the passages where God explicitly says he was married to Israel, and her husband?

Best,

Richard

And it only took Christian 1517 years to figure out that justification came by faith and not indulgences...

And yes, there are passages that God said he had married Israel, but the difficulty comes when being betrothed is, in effect, the same thing. That is why Joseph was considered a husband to Mary BEFORE they were married. This is where the discussion is centering at present. It is a very long discussion though...

[Richard Amiel McGough]

And it only took Christian 1517 years to figure out that justification came by faith and not indulgences...

Well, that's just another example of the same problem. The Bible is not sufficiently clear to serve as a faithful guide. The same folks who "recovered" the "lost doctrine of justification by faith" also taught strict predesitation which says that no one can do anything to get saved because they can't even believe until God saves them and regenerates their hearts. Do you believe this? It doesn't really matter if you do or don't, it's just another example of how the Bible fails to commucate with sufficient clarity to be useful as a guide.

And yes, there are passages that God said he had married Israel, but the difficulty comes when being betrothed is, in effect, the same thing. That is why Joseph was considered a husband to Mary BEFORE they were married. This is where the discussion is centering at present. It is a very long discussion though...

There is no Greek words for "husband" or "wife." The words are just "man" and "woman." Joseph was Mary's "man" as soon as she was betrothed to him.

I think the marriage/betrothal metaphors used in both the OT and NT were just that ~ metaphors. It would be an error to press them further than they were itended. Jesus likened himself to a door. We don't then try to make doctrines about the nature of his hindges.

[Edward Goodie]

Well, that's just another example of the same problem. The Bible is not sufficiently clear to serve as a faithful guide. The same folks who "recovered" the "lost doctrine of justification by faith" also taught strict predesitation which says that no one can do anything to get saved because they can't even believe until God saves them and regenerates their hearts. Do you believe this? It doesn't really matter if you do or don't, it's just another example of how the Bible fails to commucate with sufficient clarity to be useful as a guide.


There is no Greek words for "husband" or "wife." The words are just "man" and "woman." Joseph was Mary's "man" as soon as she was betrothed to him.

I think the marriage/betrothal metaphors used in both the OT and NT were just that ~ metaphors. It would be an error to press them further than they were itended. Jesus likened himself to a door. We don't then try to make doctrines about the nature of his hindges.

If "The Bible is not sufficiently clear to serve as a faithful guide," then what do you recommend? Do you believe we are guideless?

In regard to predestination, this is my stance:

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Because I have been justified through Christ, I have then therefore been glorified (past tense).

Terms like "predestination" and "elect" referred to Israel, not present-day individuals. The "elect" have already been gathered and have transitioned over into the new covenant. Calvinism is false.

[76of86]

This thread began with the question of whether or not 7,000 years is the plan of God for the existence of mankind upon earth in a sinful state, and whether or not the eighth day is the beginning of an everlasting day of rest. I will likely be viewed as a "kook," but starting nearly five years ago I was suddenly overcome with the inspiration to use gematria to evaluate Scripture. This came about even though I am illiterate in Hebrew and Greek, and had only a very basic knowledge of the concept of gematria. Over the next two years 4-5 periods of inspiration lasting a few weeks at a time guided me to numerous gematria associations which confirm the truth of Scripture related to what is written about Jesus. In addition, I arrived at gematria evidence regarding the origin of man and end time prophecy. Since then, I have had some additional, but less intense periods of inspiration lasting a few days at a time which led me to additional gematria associations.

The method of gematria to which I felt guided was to use only root word spelling of Hebrew words in a pseudo-translation of sentences, compute the total numerical value of the sentence, and the gematria value is then found to be significant. I have recorded hundreds of associations related to the numbers related to Jesus: 888,1480, 2368, and 3168, (Jesus, Christ, Jesus Christ, and Lord Jesus Christ in Greek), along with many random number associations. In addition, even though it was not my intention, I was led to numbers which seem to reveal the time of the end. I am attaching a file which is a rather long article which I put together a while back which is related to the idea of a 7,000 year period for mankind, and also the eighth day. Decide for yourselves if the findings are of significance as it does not fit neatly with many traditional interpretations.

The Eighth Day.pdf

76of86