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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I know of no such rules. It is fairly obvious when something should be seen as literal and when something should be seen as figurative by the language used. If it is not obvious, then accept either way until sure and find other biblical passages to support your interpretation.
    I think this is what I suggested by referencing Rev. 20:4-5.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    David C Pack's videos explaining Daniel's prophecy and the symbolism of Revelation.
    Ummmmm, I gotta say that this individual is no closer to the simple concepts than any other self proclaimed "expert". Apparently, none of these can even count past FOUR. They virtually all assert that Daniel Chapter 2 specifies FOUR world empires, but Daniel 2:45 stipulates the following Intelligent Design: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold, -- 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.

    David, I hate to suggest the obvious, but this is the most simple Book of Scripture. It follows simple world history, from the Babylonian through to the United Nations. And Chapter 11 is in perfect chronological order, with the exception of one or two verses which present parallel events. But so many individuals insist a future which is not Scriptural, and shall never come into existence. But who can refute a ~future portent~ except someone who can correctly define the present.


    Seriously, there's a reason the Lion is the Mouth, the Leopard is the Body, and the Bear is the Feet, but you won't be given any such explanation from these individuals. -- I guess it's to simple for them to understand.


    BibleScribe

  2. #12
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    Hello BibleScribe

    I will let some else to deal with your claim about United Nations getting involved. Alas we have to disagree for the moment of the fulfillment of prophecy.

    I will just comment on the following;

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleScribe View Post
    I think this is what I suggested by referencing Rev. 20:4-5.
    Ummmmm, I gotta say that this individual is no closer to the simple concepts than any other self proclaimed "expert". Apparently, none of these can even count past FOUR. They virtually all assert that Daniel Chapter 2 specifies FOUR world empires, but Daniel 2:45 stipulates the following Intelligent Design: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold, -- 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.
    BibleScribe
    You are saying that clay is a separate kingdom. The image is described as having two of iron with feet of iron and clay which do not mix. The man has two legs which represented one kindgom with two world centres. This one kingdom is recognized as the Roman Empire that had it one capital in Rome (Italy) and the other in Constantinople (Turkey)

    So I have to agree with others that the Bible mentions four kingdoms represented by four metals:
    Gold, Silver, Brass , Iron (and in part iron and clay)

    What we have to get in context is what the image represents at the time Jesus (the small stone) returns and strikes the feet of the image and heralds the end of man's rule on earth. Christ will come and set up God's kingom and rule on earth until the kingdom is ready to hand over to his Father.


    David

  3. #13
    Hi David,

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The man has two legs which represented one kindgom with two world centres. This one kingdom is recognized as the Roman Empire that had it one capital in Rome (Italy) and the other in Constantinople (Turkey).
    Actually, the thighs of bronze (Grecian Empire) was the first separation. So the assignment you provide should be attributed not only to Greece, but also to the empire of Clay, which is not two, but three superpowers.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post

    So I have to agree with others that the Bible mentions four kingdoms represented by four metals:
    Gold, Silver, Brass , Iron (and in part iron and clay)
    I don't mind that others incorrectly apply both Scripture and History, but don't you think that the two of us should agree with Scripture and History?

    Daniel 2:45
    ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ...
    , -- 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

    The Clay is presented as "divided", and today we have three superpowers and the United Nations:

    Daniel Chapter 2
    1. Gold, Babylonian
    2. Silver, Medo/Persian
    3. Bronze, Grecian
    4. Iron, Roman
    5. Clay, "divided" (Please note that the 3-superpowers all use the Roman Representative REPUBLIC form of government, thus the residue of Iron in the empire of Clay.)

    Daniel Chapters 2 & 7
    1. Gold, Babylonian
    2. Silver, Medo/Persian
    3. Bronze, Grecian
    4. Iron, Roman
    -- Clay, "divided"
    -- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
    -- 6. Bear, Russia
    -- 7. Leopard, China
    -- 8. "dreadful", United Nations ("was and is not" for it has NO population, NO geography, NO army, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Daniel 2:45
    What we have to get in context is what the image represents at the time Jesus (the small stone) returns and strikes the feet of the image and heralds the end of man's rule on earth.
    David, what I believe we have to get in context, is Scripture and World History. Otherwise what is prophecy except something to be manipulated by someone's imagination? And if I might be so bold as to discuss Intelligent Design, if GM can sequence their firing order 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2 and call it Intelligent Design, then don't you think that the AUTHOR of perfection can equally sequence the 4,3,5,2,1=FIVE as Intelligent Design?



    With Best Regards,
    BibleScribe

  4. #14
    There is a slight correction of your dates. Adam lived 930 yrs, not 932.

    The ECF's believed that they were living in the 6th millenium at that time.
    There is a difference of about 1500 yrs between the dates of the Septuigent and the Masoretic texts, and there is evidence that the apostles wrote from the Septuigent.

    Here is a thread from this forum that talks a little about the difference of the Sept dates and the Masoretic dates. The 7000 yr timeframe is well past us. The reformation of the heavens/earth preterists believe relates to the New Creation of Christ in man and of the new laws [Heavens] of faith, unconditional grace and truth brought through Creator incarnate.

    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...take-note-Sept

    http://mb-soft.com/believe/txua/africanu.htm

    http://www.christian-history.org/fall-of-rome.html
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 02-23-2012 at 02:47 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BibleScribe View Post
    Hi David,



    Actually, the thighs of bronze (Grecian Empire) was the first separation. So the assignment you provide should be attributed not only to Greece, but also to the empire of Clay, which is not two, but three superpowers.




    I don't mind that others incorrectly apply both Scripture and History, but don't you think that the two of us should agree with Scripture and History?

    Daniel 2:45
    ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ...
    , -- 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

    The Clay is presented as "divided", and today we have three superpowers and the United Nations:

    Daniel Chapter 2
    1. Gold, Babylonian
    2. Silver, Medo/Persian
    3. Bronze, Grecian
    4. Iron, Roman
    5. Clay, "divided" (Please note that the 3-superpowers all use the Roman Representative REPUBLIC form of government, thus the residue of Iron in the empire of Clay.)

    Daniel Chapters 2 & 7
    1. Gold, Babylonian
    2. Silver, Medo/Persian
    3. Bronze, Grecian
    4. Iron, Roman
    -- Clay, "divided"
    -- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
    -- 6. Bear, Russia
    -- 7. Leopard, China
    -- 8. "dreadful", United Nations ("was and is not" for it has NO population, NO geography, NO army, etc.)



    David, what I believe we have to get in context, is Scripture and World History. Otherwise what is prophecy except something to be manipulated by someone's imagination? And if I might be so bold as to discuss Intelligent Design, if GM can sequence their firing order 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2 and call it Intelligent Design, then don't you think that the AUTHOR of perfection can equally sequence the 4,3,5,2,1=FIVE as Intelligent Design?



    With Best Regards,
    BibleScribe
    Thank you BibleScribe this is all useful information that helps me piece together the prohecy of Revelation with world history and Daniel's prophecy. In as much as I understand I agree with what you are saying.

    I had not a clear association of China with the leopard or the United Nations with "dreadful". I shall give this more thought.

    I do see Russia and that regions as referred to God and Magog as part of the northern confederacy that will come down into the Middle East and come upon Israel. We see the strategic alliances being forged with Turkey and Iran.

    I do wonder if China will part be part of the northern confederacy or as more likely, will see an opportunity to invade Russia if most of her strength has gone south. Will this be a reason for seeing Russia turned back?

    This is all very interesting as we see the political stage coming about to fulfil God's plan and purpose.


    David

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    There is a slight correction of your dates. Adam lived 930 yrs, not 932.

    The ECF's believed that they were living in the 6th millenium at that time.
    There is a difference of about 1500 yrs between the dates of the Septuigent and the Masoretic texts, and there is evidence that the apostles wrote from the Septuigent or at least the pre Masoretic hebrew texts.

    Here is a thread from this forum that talks a little about the difference of the Sept dates and the Masoretic dates. The 7000 yr timeframe is well past us. The reformation of the heavens/earth preterists believe relates to the New Creation of Christ in man and of the new laws [Heavens] of faith, unconditional grace and truth brought through Creator incarnate.

    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...take-note-Sept

    http://mb-soft.com/believe/txua/africanu.htm

    http://www.christian-history.org/fall-of-rome.html
    Thanks for the correction.

    There is a lot of material to go through in the links you have provided and some of the websites do not mak for easy reading in my browser (small faint text against a textured background.

    For the proposed timescale you are suggesting, has anyone produced a graphical time line from Adam to the present day? It would be useful to compare the different time lines and see where the differences occurr. I would see things more clearly this way than from reading a lot of text which is not easy to read.


    David

  7. #17
    Hi David,

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I had not a clear association of China with the leopard
    One of the problems with the succinctness of Scripture is access to terms. Consider that Revelation appears to depict tank and helicopters, but these are described as best possible, having no direct name available. So too the "leopard" in Daniel 7.

    In Daniel's day there were circularly marked cats imported from Africa, but vertically marked cats were not yet imported from the east. Thus Daniel could only describe a vertically marked cat (tiger) using the name of a circularly marked cat (leopard). However, he amplified that depiction by describing it's attributes. As such where the U.S. has ~3-heads~ -- Executive, Legislative, & Judicial, China has 4- heads -- State Administrative Council (civilian government); People’s Revolutionary Military Council (top army command); Supreme People’s Court (the judicial branch); and Supreme Officer of Prosecution (law enforcement). So too the Four Wings, where according to economists Mao's "Great Cultural Revolution" put China back 10 years, Chou En-lai brought it forward into global competition:

    The four wings represent a second aspect that will prove to propel this nation from Mao’s backwards step called the 'Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution,' (1966-1969), into the competitive world society of today. The process by which this diametric conversion came is known as the 'Four Modernizations,' as coined by Premier Chou En-lai in 1975. They were spoken by the Premier in a speech to the 'Fourth National People’s Congress,' and were identified as: Agriculture; Industry; Science & Technology; and National Defense. Interestingly, political commentators opine that there are really only three modernizations, because 'National Defense' is a sub-category of 'Science & Technology.' However Chou En-lai declared FOUR MODERNIZATIONS.

    And this unprecedented influx of Chinese manufactured items in the global market should be obvious.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    ... the United Nations with "dreadful".
    Most people are not aware that in August of 1993, FIVE nations were nominated to the Permanent Security Council:


    Current Membership to the Permanent Security Council
    1. U.S.
    2. U.K.
    3. France
    4. Russia
    5. China

    Nominated Membership to the Permanent Security Council
    6. Germany -- economic power
    7. Japan -- economic power
    8. Brazil -- regional representative for S. America
    9. Nigeria -- regional representative for Africa
    10. India -- regional representative for the Near East

    'The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,' U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993

    Thus the ten toes. And of course there are many other aspects which could substantiate this candidacy.



    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I do wonder if China will part be part of the northern confederacy or as more likely, will see an opportunity to invade Russia if most of her strength has gone south. Will this be a reason for seeing Russia turned back?
    Daniel 11:40 suggests that when Russia attacks Israel there will be two threats (the east and the north). I would expect the "east" is the threat from China marching it's armies across the Euphrates. I would expect the secondary threat is from the "north" as civil unrest within Russia.

    Furthermore Rev. 13:2 says of the seven heads, one would be mortally wounded, and Rev. 17 points to an era of significance "one is". Thus:


    Rev. 13 Seven Heads -- Sequence of World Empires
    1. Gold, Babylonian
    2. Silver, Medo/Persian
    3. Bronze, Grecian
    4. Iron, Roman
    -- Clay, "divided"
    -- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
    -- 6. Bear, Russia -- the head which is mortally wounded
    -- 7. Leopard, China

    Please note that the "beast" is the eighth U.N.


    Rev. 17 Seven Kings -- Sequence of World Empires

    1. Gold, Babylonian
    2. Silver, Medo/Persian
    3. Bronze, Grecian
    4. Iron, Roman
    -- Clay, "divided"
    -- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
    -- 6. Bear, Russia -- "one is" when it attack Israel, and the world shall wonder at this event
    -- 7. Leopard, China

    Please note that the U.N. is the eighth that "was and is not", because it has NO Populous, NO Geography, NO Army, etc.




    And so we should find agreement and harmony between the Chapters of Daniel 2,7,8,&11, and Revelation 13&17.

    BibleScribe
    Last edited by BibleScribe; 02-23-2012 at 08:30 AM.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Thanks for the correction.

    There is a lot of material to go through in the links you have provided and some of the websites do not mak for easy reading in my browser (small faint text against a textured background.

    For the proposed timescale you are suggesting, has anyone produced a graphical time line from Adam to the present day? It would be useful to compare the different time lines and see where the differences occurr. I would see things more clearly this way than from reading a lot of text which is not easy to read.


    David
    The link to the discussion on the bible wheel forum pinpoints some of the paragraphs from Africanus's writings that are applicable to the topic. To summarize the applicable point from Africanus writings; he says:
    The period, then, to the advent [baptism?] of the Lord from Adam and the creation is 5531 years, from which epoch to the 250th Olympiad there are 192 years, as has been shown above.
    Here is a link to at least one timeline which uses the Septuigent dates. Jesus is born in the approximate year 5499 which is 4 bc and which puts our present date of 2012 in the year 7513. Some believe that the Masoretic texts were altered by the Hellenists. [see quote below] Joe [the forgiven] who posts here has done some research and evaluation on those themes.
    From the next link below:
    The Masoretic text was produced by Jewish scholars beginning in about the fifth century AD, and continuing until almost AD 1000. They are thought to have worked from manuscripts that were copied in about the second century AD. Thus, this is the newest version in terms of source material.
    Here is another article comparing 3 different dates of the manuscripts of the OT.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 02-23-2012 at 02:48 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  9. #19
    Hi David,

    From the next link below:
    The Masoretic text was produced by Jewish scholars beginning in about the fifth century AD, and continuing until almost AD 1000. They are thought to have worked from manuscripts that were copied in about the second century AD. Thus, this is the newest version in terms of source material.

    The Apologetics Press provides what appears to be an objective analysis of the Masoretic Text and Septuagint against the Dead Sea (Qumran) Scrolls:





    First, the Dead Sea (Qumran) Scrolls, and thereby the Masoretic text, have a more ancient basis than you imply:

    ... the archaeological and linguistic data provide scholars with reasonable confidence that the scrolls date from 250 B.C. to A.D. 70.



    Secondly it appears you challenge the integrity of the Masoretic Text, but the evidence suggests otherwise:

    The Isaiah scrolls found at Qumran closed that gap to within 500 years of the original manuscript. Interestingly, when scholars compared the MT of Isaiah to the Isaiah scroll of Qumran, the correspondence was astounding. The texts from Qumran proved to be word-for-word identical to our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The 5 percent of variation consisted primarily of obvious slips of the pen and spelling alterations (Archer, 1974, p. 25). Further, there were no major doctrinal differences between the accepted and Qumran texts (see Table 1 below). This forcibly demonstrated the accuracy with which scribes copied sacred texts, and bolstered our confidence in the Bible’s textual integrity (see Yamauchi, 1972, p. 130). The Dead Sea Scrolls have increased our confidence that faithful scribal transcription substantially has preserved the original content of Isaiah.

    ...

    As in the case of Isaiah, before Qumran there were no extant manuscripts of Daniel that dated earlier than the late tenth century A.D. Accordingly, scholars cast suspicion on the integrity of Daniel’s text. Also, as with Isaiah, this skepticism about the credibility of Daniel’s contents prompted scholars to take great freedom in adjusting the Hebrew text. One reason for this suspicion is the seemingly arbitrary appearance of Aramaic sections within the book. Some scholars had assumed from this linguistic shift that Daniel was written initially in Aramaic, and then some portions were translated into Hebrew. Further, a comparison of the Septuagint translation (Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) with the MT revealed tremendous disparity in length and content between the two texts. Due to these and other considerations, critical scholars assigned little value to the MT rendition of Daniel.

    Once again, however, the findings at Qumran have confirmed the integrity of Daniel’s text. Gerhard Hasel listed several strands of evidence from the Daniel fragments found at Qumran that support the integrity of the MT (see 1992, 5[2]:50). First, for the most part, the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts of Daniel are very consistent in content among themselves, containing very few variants. Second, the Qumran fragments conform very closely to the MT overall, with only a few rare variants in the former that side with the Septuagint version. Third, the transitions from Hebrew to Aramaic are preserved in the Qumran fragments. Based on such overwhelming data, it is evident that the MT is a well-preserved rendition of Daniel. In short, Qumran assures us that we can be reasonably confident that the Daniel text on which our English translations are based is one of integrity.



    With Best Regards,
    BibleScribe

  10. #20

    Saw this on internet one day

    I have no problem thinking that science shows dating the earth is 4,4 billions years old, its problably what they get if God made it that old when he created it, as you have to believe the chicken came first, not the egg. If Adam was created not as a seed, but as a fullgrown man, you would see him as maybe 17-30 years old. Likewise may the earth be as old as 4,4 billions of years from the dating methods.

    But this is something kind of weird, the bibele teaches that from Adam till now, is some 6000 years. And that one day is like 1000 years it also says.

    So take 360days * 6000 years * 1000 years(for each day) You get 2,16 billion
    And with the 6 days before Adam as 1000 years, then you yet another 6000 years to do the same formula.
    6000*360*1000= 2,16 billion
    Add those you get 4,32 billion years, almost as old as the scientific data shows.

    But don't take this scientifically. Its just basic fun math of the bible.

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