Preterism in the 21 Century

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Beck,

I have but one question: Where is Jesus Christ right now?

Paul answers that:
Romans 10
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word [Jesus] is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, [VERIFIED HIS DEITY AND INNOCENCE OF OF THE CHARGE BLASPHEMY FOR DECLARING HIMSELF GOD] thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Matt 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the LIVING God.

[Beck]

Beck,

I have but one question: Where is Jesus Christ right now?

I would say that his Spirit dwells in the heart of man. Christ walked on this earth as if he was God, saying that God and himself was the same. Well to my knowledge Jesus was simply saying that he was doing his fathers work. Jesus had said that in doing so he wasn't doing his (fleshly) will, but the will of God. This is how Jesus spoke of them being one in the hope that we shall also be one as the sons of God. This of course is through the Spirit.

So I don't think the bible teaches that there is a place in clouds that the spirit of man would leave his body and go to be in heaven. I'm not sure if I mentioned this in this thread or not, but the heaven that is an pattern of the earthly temple is summed up as the heaven temple the 'body of christ' as that temple. For Paul said know you not that you body is the temple of God. Hope that answers your question.

And you are quite correct in saying that the Bible is primarily Jewish. It was they who had broken covenant. But there are still those who are outside of the city...

I'm not sure of your eschatological view point as a Preterist, but I would assume you then see that today there are those that are raised from the dead. Of course this is from a spiritual concept of the resurrection of the dead and if that's the case then how does the thousand years apply to that assumption? Do you see our spritiual rebirth as the resurrection of the dead of Revelation 20:5?

If not then how does any of this apply today?

[Edward Goodie]

I guess I don't see where you are coming from. It seems your understanding presents no hope after your physical death...

I would have to place you in the category of:

1 Corinthians 15:19 - If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

What of the faithful dead who were raised from hades? What happened to them? Where did they go.

I guess I see Jesus as being near the throne of God in heaven, but then again, it looks like our understanding here is vastly different.

I realize Scripture is very silent on this issue of a heavenly place as an after life, but how could it possibly be described? Who could understand?

[TheForgiven]

Hi Brother Beck:

Hmmm? You asked, "Where is this heaven"? Heaven cannot be understood from a scientific point of view, much less a literal, pro-physical point of view. Heaven is where we cannot see; at least not with the naked eye. Heaven is a completely different realm of existence. Now some take heaven to literally be the sky of the earth, or perhaps the entire universe. If I had to choose between the two, I'd say the universe as it is an ever endless realm of existence.

Given the fact that the Spiritual Angels are able to vanish out of thin air, I'd say that the heavenly realm of existence has the ability to altar its molecular structure, or influence it in some way or another. For instance, the Angels who appeared to the fathers of the past, such as Abraham. Remember how they consumed a meal? Where did that food go? Was it literally digested?

If God and His Angels are capable of vanishing out of thin air, then logically, their habitat must also be invisible to the human naked eye. Hence, we're talking about a totally different way of existence far to extraordinary to be understood or seen by the human state of mind and existence. And so I suppose you could say that this is what makes Christianity so interesting; the idea that we all believe by faith that after death, we pass on from an earthly realm of existence, to a heavenly realm of existence, being full of power and ability, and never ending corruption.

Joseph

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

So I don't think the bible teaches that there is a place in clouds that the spirit of man would leave his body and go to be in heaven. I'm not sure if I mentioned this in this thread or not, but the heaven that is an pattern of the earthly temple is summed up as the heaven temple the 'body of christ' as that temple. For Paul said know you not that you body is the temple of God. Hope that answers your question.

For one: though not neccessarily just in the clouds....

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

[Edward Goodie]

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Matt 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the LIVING God.

I have always questioned Peter's so-called knowledge of the Christ, at least according to our understanding of what Christ usually means. I say this because in the very next verses, Peter attempts to stop Jesus from fulfilling his mission as the Christ! How could Peter say Jesus was the Christ and rebuke the Lord Jesus for being the Christ?! Should we be surprised that the Lord called Peter an adversary (satan) because of what Peter was trying to do...

Is it not also amazing that at the first, Peter is attributed to "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee" but after Jesus rebukes him, Peter is attributed "for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." [Note: my understanding of "flesh and blood" is not the same as "human being;" it is old covenant related.]

Matthew 16:21-23 - From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter's understanding of Christ was different than our understanding of Christ.

[Beck]

I guess I don't see where you are coming from. It seems your understanding presents no hope after your physical death...

Yeah, that kinded what I'm thinking. For example in 2 Cor.5:1-8 Paul spoke of the earthly tabernacle where dissolved that you would have a heavenly house. To me Paul alludes NOT to his physical body, but to the physical temple that they would have an heavenly spiritual temple. This was Paul's hope to see that day of transformation from the physical earthly temple unto that heavenly spiritual temple. Which is given of that house being dissolved in Hebrews 9:11

That day has come and all has been fulfilled there remains no more hope of that day of transformation nor is there hope of a day of resurrection of the dead for that ALL has been fulfilled. That's my understanding as a Preterist, but not all Preterist's may not have come to that same conclusion.

I would have to place you in the category of:

1 Corinthians 15:19 - If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Yeap I remember that verse, but in context isn't that relating toward what I mentioned above? Paul simply is saying that if there was not hope of that heavenly temple that all men would be most miserable to remain in this bondage by the law.

What of the faithful dead who were raised from hades? What happened to them? Where did they go.

They were raised to life through their faith which is to them white robes of righteousness and their works do follow them. Meaning that they would live in other's by their faith through many generation because of their good works of righteouness.

I could say they went to heaven, but really what does that mean? Heaven is peace, rest and as stated heaven was the temple the Most Holy place was considered to the the throne room of God. You see those saints were the Temple (Body of Christ) and in their heart is that room for God to dwell. So in that sence heaven is your heart where God now dwells.

I guess I see Jesus as being near the throne of God in heaven, but then again, it looks like our understanding here is vastly different.

Have you read Richard's well written thesis on John 14? Here's that link. It brings together many of the ideas that I apply to my understanding on this topic.

I realize Scripture is very silent on this issue of a heavenly place as an after life, but how could it possibly be described? Who could understand?

There shall be a new heaven and new earth. To me that speaks of a new temple and a new Israel. The new temple (heaven) is the Body of Christ made up of believers. And that in itself birth a new Israel both Jews and Gentiles.

I beleive the bible speaks of it in types and shadows the hidden wisdom (hidden manna) spiritual knowledge.

[Beck]

Hi Brother Beck:

Hmmm? You asked, "Where is this heaven"? Heaven cannot be understood from a scientific point of view, much less a literal, pro-physical point of view. Heaven is where we cannot see; at least not with the naked eye. Heaven is a completely different realm of existence. Now some take heaven to literally be the sky of the earth, or perhaps the entire universe. If I had to choose between the two, I'd say the universe as it is an ever endless realm of existence.

Hi Joe,

To me the use of heaven in the bible represents as place where God dwells, now since Jesus dead and made a place for us that where he is that we might be also. That place is in my opinion your heart and that would make the new heaven the body of Christ the Temple of God. Since the old heaven melted with heat that old temple. Therefore that an completely different realm of existence one of spiritual.

Given the fact that the Spiritual Angels are able to vanish out of thin air, I'd say that the heavenly realm of existence has the ability to altar its molecular structure, or influence it in some way or another. For instance, the Angels who appeared to the fathers of the past, such as Abraham. Remember how they consumed a meal? Where did that food go? Was it literally digested?

Angels to my understanding denotes 'messengers' as that is how Paul ascribed to them as those false teaches as false angels which were casted into darkness. The same is to the heavenly angels... here that would be a saint of God that brings the word of God as a messenger (Angel) of God.

Herbews 13:2 says that don't forget to receive strangers for some have received angels (messengers of God) These are not heavenly beings, but strangers from another country given a word of God that came to you. For that matter this man that came to their door might have be a disciple of Paul or whomever and if the host did not show him hospitality it might have got back to Paul. Even worst the host would have missed out on the Word of God a blessing.

And that's how a messenger would have eaten a meal

If God and His Angels are capable of vanishing out of thin air, then logically, their habitat must also be invisible to the human naked eye. Hence, we're talking about a totally different way of existence far to extraordinary to be understood or seen by the human state of mind and existence. And so I suppose you could say that this is what makes Christianity so interesting; the idea that we all believe by faith that after death, we pass on from an earthly realm of existence, to a heavenly realm of existence, being full of power and ability, and never ending corruption.

Joseph

I always wanted to fly without a plane, but I really don't believe that is going to happen.

[Beck]

For one: though not neccessarily just in the clouds....

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Right, in the sence that the city of the new Jerusalem is seen on mount zion. Given the assembly of saints as messengers of God's word. What is the writer describing here for us?

He is describing the assembly of the first born sons of God while they were on earth. That mount zion is the spiritual represention of Jerusalem. Remember Peter called the saints in 1 Peter 2 living stones of that city.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Concerning the 1000 yrs in the book of Revelation referring to the lifespan of Christ:

I recently saw a movie of John Wayne called "hondo". In it "hondo" is given the duty by the Indians with watching over a prarie boys development. {I think it was something like that}. And then the Indian says: if he comes back and 'hondo' has not done this, that He, the Indian will see to it that Hondo's dying [his living] will most assuradly be far worse than his most unwelcome death. His "most unwelcome death" is referring to his death at the end of his lifespan.

Isn't that similar to what was said to Adam... "in the day that you eat of it "in your dying, you will die". Meaning.. in the lenth of the parameters of your physical life {in the process of your living and dying} you will die. I feel this was both spiritually in being removed from the Garden fellowship and communion and also a physical shortening of Adams life to be less than his 1000 yr lifespan. But the Creator didn't leave them hopeless, but promised a 'seed' through Eve to reverse the effects.

I believe that This 1000 yr lifespan of Adam [which he did not obtain] is part of the concepts for the 1000 yrs in Revelation to be symbolic of both Christs fulfilled 70 yr life-span under mosaic law and of the apostles being 'perfected' by their testing...even unto death.

I believe that there is further confirmation that the lenght and events of the 70 yr life of Christ [30 yrs in flesh and 40 yrs as Spirit] is symbolic of the 1000 yrs mentioned in Revelation and the fulfilled lifespan of Adam now perfected and justified through faith and trust in Christ.....

Adam lived 930 yrs; 930 plus 70 = 1000. Jesus symbolically [numerically] fulfilled the 1000 yrs with his completed 70 yr lifespan under law.

Secondly;
Lamach addressed his wives saying I have slain a man who injured me {rsv}. He then says that if Cain is avenged 7 times, he would be avenged 7 X 70.

23 Then Lamech said to his wives:

'Adah and Zillah, hear my voice;
Wives of Lamech, listen to my speech!
For I have killed a man for wounding me,
Even a young man for hurting me.
24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.'

'This wording of Lamech seems to be an obvious association with God's words to the Serpent.

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.'

Was Lamech affirming his trust and hope in God's words and future actions of the seed promised to Eve??? We aren't told that he actually 'killed' anyone; so could the implications easily be that he has mortified doubt, disbelief, distrust and rebellion in his own spirit and will??? He has 'killed' an ideology of fear, distrust, disbelief and the "person" of misinformation and lies in his own mind and heart. He is declaring that they have no place or authority in his life. I think that this man of fear, distrust, and misinformation is the 'man' Lamach killed. 2 verses later we have the comment that at this time men began calling on and trusting the Name and Character of the Creator God.

490 yrs is the time extension and 'forgiveness' given in Dan 9 to mosaic covenant Israel after the return from the curse of the Babylonian captivity. That time period of forgiveness and extension would usher in Messiah who would crush the entity who injured man.

It seems Lamech is perhaps unknowingly foretelling of this future prophecy which would accomplish that ends.

Jesus fulfills DAniels 490 yrs and also fulfills the proclamation of Lamech. The injector of doubt, lies and disbelief in the conditional garden law is cast out and replaced with perfection through being justified by trust in the son of God incarnate fulfilled.

No wonder Paul goes off on a rant at the end of Romans chapter 11.

3 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 'For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?'[i]
35 'Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?'[j]

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

This section in Genesis and the parameters of the ending of the 483 yrs at Jesus day gives context to the disciples question about how many times to forgive them. 7 times? [the length remaining in the covenant of Daniel]... No.. the forgiveness is 490.....[Forgive God for the 490 yr time extension OR God's forgiveness and time extenstion given to the mosaic covenant nation and their conditional, corporal eways before their destruction]


It is also to be noted that Lamech lived 777 yrs.

31And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.

Is this man of trust in the future seed of Eve [Christ] and of eternal life contrast against the 666 "man" of disbelief, ignorance, rejection and rebellion against the Creator's revealation of himself, his proving of his entity and his good, loving and freeing purposes?

Gen 4:23 Then Lamech said to his wives:

'Adah and Zillah, hear my voice;
Wives of Lamech, listen to my speech!
For I have killed a man for wounding me,
Even a young man for hurting me.
24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.'

Rev 13:18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

31And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.

John said that the 'spirit' of anti-christ is that spirit or ideology which disavows or rejects the spirit of God coming in the flesh.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Whirlwind stuff.