The Seven Seals

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi RAM

Reading Morris today, he makes a point I feel is worth mentioning. He sees the four horsemen as judgements sent forth directly from the Lamb and from what I understand by reading seems to view the first horse as first and foremost dealing with those who were going to escape judgement - the 'overcomers'. Morris says the word 'conquer' used is the same as overcome. Surely he is onto something here for we do know that to those who overcome shall be given crowns and these will not have judgemment. Perhaps this is why these look similar to Christ himself. Furthermore Morris says 'the bow like the rainbow speaks of mercy in the midst of judgement'

IMO this still fits with the Olivet discourse as by forewarning his followers, Christ allowed them to escape judgement that was metered out to Jerusalem.

Hey Abigail,

Those are some good insights. Morris is correct of course about "overcomer" being the same as "conqueror." In Greek, the word is Ho Nikon, and it has a numerical value of 1000 which has always seemed quite signficant to me. This was part of those many reasons I thought the White Horse had to be Christ, because He is the One who Conquers, and He gave promises to "He who overscomes" = Ho Nikon = 1000.

Now I want to make sure I understand your point. When you say the first horse was "dealing with those who were going to escape judgement" it sounds like you are suggesting that it goes forth to help the overcomers (i.e. Chirstians) escape the onslaught that was soon to come (as expressed by the other three horsemen). Is that correct? If so, its very interesing and seems like it may have some promise. I'll need to think on it more, of course. And pass it by my wife Rose.

As for the book, are you talking about Henry Morris' "Revelation Record"?

Another view of the white horse which still fits with the Olivet discourse Matt 24:2 is if the white horse is seen as Romans coming to destroy the temple which if I am correct was seen as the seat of the Jews' power and wealth. Apparently the Romans viewed Ivory as being associated with power and wealth, so maybe the white horse is meant to conjure up thoughts of ivory.

Personally I like the view Morris has lead me to.

Yes, the first horse could be the army as it comes to conquer, but that doesn't seem to fit well with the Olivet Discourse because the events listed in Matt 24:5-9 preceed the arrival of the Roman army.

Richard

[Abigail]

Hey Abigail,

Those are some good insights. Morris is correct of course about "overcomer" being the same as "conqueror." In Greek, the word is Ho Nikon, and it has a numerical value of 1000 which has always seemed quite signficant to me. This was part of those many reasons I thought the White Horse had to be Christ, because He is the One who Conquers, and He gave promises to "He who overscomes" = Ho Nikon = 1000.

Now I want to make sure I understand your point. When you say the first horse was "dealing with those who were going to escape judgement" it sounds like you are suggesting that it goes forth to help the overcomers (i.e. Chirstians) escape the onslaught that was soon to come (as expressed by the other three horsemen). Is that correct? If so, its very interesing and seems like it may have some promise. I'll need to think on it more, of course. And pass it by my wife Rose.

Yes, that's about it. James 2:13 'For judgement will be merciless to the one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgement ' These have the bow (which according to Morris is associated with the rainbow which speaks of mercy in the midst of judgement)

As for the book, are you talking about Henry Morris' "Revelation Record"?

Yes, that's it. As I said I don't agree with his eschatology, but he always has such wonderful detail in his works. He must have spent hours digging about in the Bible. It's very exciting. Who needs PS3 or XBox or Wii ...I wish my kids would realise this

Yes, the first horse could be the army as it comes to conquer, but that doesn't seem to fit well with the Olivet Discourse because the events listed in Matt 24:5-9 preceed the arrival of the Roman army.

Richard

Yes, that does seem a weakness.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Yes, that's about it. James 2:13 'For judgement will be merciless to the one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgement ' These have the bow (which according to Morris is associated with the rainbow which speaks of mercy in the midst of judgement)

That's a very good insight too. It was, in fact, yet another one of the reasons I thougth the First Horseman was Christ. Rose and I did a word study on toxon (bow) and found that it was the word used in Gen 9:13 when God set his bow in the clouds. And now the connection suddenly popped into my my (as I am writing this) that God set His bow in the clouds as a SIGN of His covenant that He would not again judge with a flood! This quite naturally fits with the Bow as a symbol of God's protection of His Covenant people from the judgment that was just about to come down like a "flood" (Dan 9:26) upon Jerusalem.

Yes, that's it. As I said I don't agree with his eschatology, but he always has such wonderful detail in his works. He must have spent hours digging about in the Bible. It's very exciting. Who needs PS3 or XBox or Wii ...I wish my kids would realise this

Perhaps our young folks will get more enthused when folks start providing more books and sermons that build upon the amazing integrity and endless beauty of the Bible instead of insulting their intelligence with absurd comic book interpretations and false date settings and endless cries of "its the end of the world!"

Thanks for this new idea about the First Horse. I am convinced that it must fit with the sequence of the Olivet Discourse, but it may have been premature to directly assign it to the false Christs. I still gotta think about that more.

Richard

[Abigail]

I am convinced that it must fit with the sequence of the Olivet Discourse,

Yes, me too. It fits another overarching pattern too which in a way supports the first horse being 'good':

Rev 6:2 'And I looked and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow and a crown was given to him; and he went out conquering and to conquer.'
Genesis 1:28 'And God blessed them; and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth'.'
So here the first horse can be seen in the pre-fall Adam


Rev 6:4 'And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men should slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.'
Genesis 3:14 'And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed ....' (Arguably this was being addressed to the serpent but it did lead to a loss of peace for them)
To me the false Christ's in the Olivet discourse are partly responsible for loss of peace. There is peace when the world is not at war and peace when we have the peace that passes understanding, these false Christs fiddled with both of these.

Rev 6:5-6 The black horse whose rider holds the scales in his hand
Genesis 3:17-18 '...cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you shall eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread.

Rev 6:7-8 Fourth rider named Death
Genesis 1:19 'For you are dust and to dust you shall return'

Rev 6:9-11 the fith seal with the martyrs crying out
Genesis 4:10 'And He said 'What have you done ? The voice of your brothers blood is crying to Me from the ground'

Rev 6:12-17 Sixth seal gives a description of what I would have expected to have happened when God destroyed the world in Noah's time.

So to me this has a lot of parallels with the Olivet discourse because in Noah's time the world was destroyed and the world for the Jews was also going to be destroyed.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Yes, me too. It fits another overarching pattern too which in a way supports the first horse being 'good':

Rev 6:2 'And I looked and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow and a crown was given to him; and he went out conquering and to conquer.'
Genesis 1:28 'And God blessed them; and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth'.'
So here the first horse can be seen in the pre-fall Adam


Rev 6:4 'And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men should slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.'
Genesis 3:14 'And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed ....' (Arguably this was being addressed to the serpent but it did lead to a loss of peace for them)
To me the false Christ's in the Olivet discourse are partly responsible for loss of peace. There is peace when the world is not at war and peace when we have the peace that passes understanding, these false Christs fiddled with both of these.

Rev 6:5-6 The black horse whose rider holds the scales in his hand
Genesis 3:17-18 '...cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you shall eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread.

Rev 6:7-8 Fourth rider named Death
Genesis 1:19 'For you are dust and to dust you shall return'

Rev 6:9-11 the fith seal with the martyrs crying out
Genesis 4:10 'And He said 'What have you done ? The voice of your brothers blood is crying to Me from the ground'

Rev 6:12-17 Sixth seal gives a description of what I would have expected to have happened when God destroyed the world in Noah's time.

So to me this has a lot of parallels with the Olivet discourse because in Noah's time the world was destroyed and the world for the Jews was also going to be destroyed.

Hey Abigail,

That is an altogether fascinating set of parallels! I'm going to simplify it to make it easier to see:

Seal 1 Conqueror - Adam (Type of Christ)
Seal 2 War - Fall/Enmity
Seal 3 Famine - Cursed Ground/Sweat of the Brow
Seal 4 Death - Thou art dust
Seal 5 Martyrs - Abel (First martyr)
Seal 6 Judgment Day - Flood of Noah

Wow - that's really interesting.

Thanks!

Richard

[MHz]

We didn't have a thread on this topic, and I have some ideas that need to be tested.

Many folks have noticed that the first six seals correlate strongly with the sequence of events in the Olivet Discourse. Here is a brief overview:

First Seal ~ White Horse conquering
Matt 24:5 ~ False Christs

Second Seal ~ War
Matt 24:6-7 ~ Wars and rumors of wars

Third Seal ~ Famine
Matt 24:7 ~ And there shall be famines

Fourth Seal ~ Death
Matt 24:7 ~ and pestilences

Fifth Seal ~ Martyrs
Matt 24:9 ~ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you

Sixth Seal ~ Judgment on Jerusalem begins
Matt 24:15 ~ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation ...

This correlation is way too tight to be anything like a "mere coincidence." I see it as yet another fact supporting the idea that Revelation talks about the same events as the Olivet Discourse, namely, the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Folks who have been talking with me for a while will note that I here demonstrate my willingness to change my mind with new evidence. I used to argue that the White Horse must represent Christ because later in the same book we see Christ on the White Horse, and the color White signifies righteousness, and there is nothing in the text that indicates any counterfeit. But others argued that it couldn't be Christ because the Four Horsemen form a group, and Christ is not to be classed with the other three. But I countered that the Four Horsemen represent a sequence of events, and there was no reason that an event that begins with Christ could not be followed by events triggered by angels (or Satan). But now, after seeing the correlation between the sequence of the Olivet Discourse and the Seven Seals, I feel a pretty strong tug towards interpreting the White Horse as a symbol of false christs. Note that I do not say "antichrist" because that figure does not appear in Revelation.

There is much more to say. I am very interested in what folks think about this.

Richard

Hi Richard,

I tend to go with the 1st seal as not having anything to do with the AC. I tend to see that vision being about God (the rider) and the Holy Spirit (the white horse). The end-times start at a time only God knows. Nobody knows when the events given in Scripture will start, we do know some dates for events that must happen before Christ returns. This brings up the issue of the bow and no arrows. If that information was given earlier in the Bible then there would be no need to repeat it in Revelation.
It would seem that God does have a bow,

Isa:49:1:
Listen,
O isles,
unto me;
and hearken,
ye people,
from far;
The LORD hath called me from the womb;
from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isa:49:2:
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me,
and made me a polished shaft;
in his quiver hath he hid me;

Those verses certainly indicate God having a bow, making Him the rider.

I tend to view the seals as being just an index to what is covered in later chapters. They only list 7 major markers for the time that comes after God has declared a start of the final days.

I thought of this by comparing the writing style of Revelation and Daniel. In Daniel 2 the image of the statue is given and that image is explained in greater detail in later chapters, one for Neb, one for the silver, one for the brass and yet another one for the iron and clay. In the description of the statue there weren't any breaks, the head did not 'play out in full' before the next level was introduced. By the end of Da:2 nothing had come to pass but there was an index for what later chapters cover.

If the seals are page markers the event that would play out later would be described in a later chapter. The trumps are the next subject in Revelation. There is one event between the end of the words about the seals and when the 1st trump sounds. The big question is would it qualify as being what the 1st seal talks about. God giving Christ the go-ahead.

Re:8:2:
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God;
and to them were given seven trumpets.
Re:8:3:
And another angel came and stood at the altar,
having a golden censer;
and there was given unto him much incense,
that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Re:8:4:
And the smoke of the incense,
which came with the prayers of the saints,
ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Re:8:5:
And the angel took the censer,
and filled it with fire of the altar,
and cast it into the earth:
and there were voices,
and thunderings,
and lightnings,
and an earthquake.

More than once Christ is revealed 'in Angelic form' in Revelation so I see no reason that this angel is not Christ himself.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

Hello MHz,

Welcome to our forum!

I tend to go with the 1st seal as not having anything to do with the AC. I tend to see that vision being about God (the rider) and the Holy Spirit (the white horse).

That's how I felt for a long time .... then I noted the strong correlation with the Olivet Discourse .... so I thought it probably was the false christs (not AC, since the Bible talks about many ac's not one AC). But then Abigail suggested an interesting idea that it might have to do with God watching over and leading His people so they conquer and are not deceived and trapped in the coming judgment. And so it goes back and forth ... but as far as I can currently tell, the most likely interpretation is "false christs" because of the tight fit with the Olivet Discourse. The main point is that the OD links to the seals in Rev. That seems to be their primary purpose - to lead us to see that connection.

The end-times start at a time only God knows. Nobody knows when the events given in Scripture will start, we do know some dates for events that must happen before Christ returns.

So you believe the events of Revelation are still future? Myself, I think they were fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the scattering of the Jews, as Christ predicted:

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This brings up the issue of the bow and no arrows. If that information was given earlier in the Bible then there would be no need to repeat it in Revelation.

Actually, there is a great need for repetition because that means that we have "two or three witnesses" to confirm every prophetic word. Indeed, that is why I think the seals are so significant. They form a link between Revelation and the Olivet Discourse which confirms that they are talking about the same events.

It would seem that God does have a bow,

Isa:49:1:
Listen,
O isles,
unto me;
and hearken,
ye people,
from far;
The LORD hath called me from the womb;
from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isa:49:2:
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me,
and made me a polished shaft;
in his quiver hath he hid me;

Those verses certainly indicate God having a bow, making Him the rider.

I don't think that is how we should interpret the Bible. The "bow" in Isaiah 49 is figurative. I wouldn't want to say "God has a bow" because of Isaiah 49. That doesn't seem right.

I tend to view the seals as being just an index to what is covered in later chapters. They only list 7 major markers for the time that comes after God has declared a start of the final days.

I thought of this by comparing the writing style of Revelation and Daniel. In Daniel 2 the image of the statue is given and that image is explained in greater detail in later chapters, one for Neb, one for the silver, one for the brass and yet another one for the iron and clay. In the description of the statue there weren't any breaks, the head did not 'play out in full' before the next level was introduced. By the end of Da:2 nothing had come to pass but there was an index for what later chapters cover.

If the seals are page markers the event that would play out later would be described in a later chapter. The trumps are the next subject in Revelation. There is one event between the end of the words about the seals and when the 1st trump sounds. The big question is would it qualify as being what the 1st seal talks about. God giving Christ the go-ahead.

I don't quite follow what you are getting at here.

Re:8:2:
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God;
and to them were given seven trumpets.
Re:8:3:
And another angel came and stood at the altar,
having a golden censer;
and there was given unto him much incense,
that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Re:8:4:
And the smoke of the incense,
which came with the prayers of the saints,
ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Re:8:5:
And the angel took the censer,
and filled it with fire of the altar,
and cast it into the earth:
and there were voices,
and thunderings,
and lightnings,
and an earthquake.

More than once Christ is revealed 'in Angelic form' in Revelation so I see no reason that this angel is not Christ himself.

I agree that Christ could be revealed "in Angelic form" (I guess), but I don't see what it has to do with Rev 8. Could you explain?

Richard

[MHz]

Hello MHz,

Welcome to our forum!

Thanks.

That's how I felt for a long time .... then I noted the strong correlation with the Olivet Discourse .... so I thought it probably was the false christs (not AC, since the Bible talks about many ac's not one AC). But then Abigail suggested an interesting idea that it might have to do with God watching over and leading His people so they conquer and are not deceived and trapped in the coming judgment. And so it goes back and forth ... but as far as I can currently tell, the most likely interpretation is "false christs" because of the tight fit with the Olivet Discourse. The main point is that the OD links to the seals in Rev. That seems to be their primary purpose - to lead us to see that connection.

I would certainly agree that there is a connection, I just not totally convinced of one thing. The OD could cover events from when it is written, the seals can only cover events from when the time of the end starts. There is a part of time that is covered by the OD alone.

M't:24:6:
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:
see that ye be not troubled:
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Does that come before of after this verse?
Re:1:1:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


M't:24:14:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.

Re:14:6:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation,
and kindred,
and tongue,
and people,

The next event after this is Christ claiming the Earth.

The abomination mentioned is still a yet to be thing. It is when Satan & Co do this,

Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword,
and did live.

If that image has anything to do with this verse then they are in Jerusalem.
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

The abomination mentioned in Daniel is not in ch:9, this is the abomination that is the sign to scatter (if you are in Judea)


Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

So you believe the events of Revelation are still future? Myself, I think they were fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the scattering of the Jews, as Christ predicted:

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

For the most part, one exception is that ch:12 seems to cover 3 times Satan had had dealings with man, the 3 most important. Eve, the time Jesus was here, and the time he still has coming.

Actually, there is a great need for repetition because that means that we have "two or three witnesses" to confirm every prophetic word. Indeed, that is why I think the seals are so significant. They form a link between Revelation and the Olivet Discourse which confirms that they are talking about the same events.

Perhaps I should rephrase my comment. A lot of events are repeated in Scripture, the more important the event the more verses. Say there is one event covered in all of the 1st four Gospels, they all basically say the same thing but unless you read all of them there is a chance some point may be in one report but not in the other 3.

I am not saying there is no relationship. It is just from a slightly different POV than the seals. This verse would seem to cover more than 1 seal,

M't:24:7:
For nation shall rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom:
and there shall be famines,
and pestilences,
and earthquakes,
in divers places.
M't:24:8:
All these are the beginning of sorrows.

It sure seems to cover more than 1. The first few trumps would also be enough to at least start the same consequences.

The second rider is red and he has a sword. Romans 13 speaks of servants of God that are given a sword to combat evil with. More or less that would be the governments of the Nations. Red meaning that the use the sword for something other than originally intended, to the detriment of the people it is supposed to protect.

I don't think that is how we should interpret the Bible. The "bow" in Isaiah 49 is figurative. I wouldn't want to say "God has a bow" because of Isaiah 49. That doesn't seem right.

Actually it is only implies, implicated by listing two items that go with a bow.

I don't quite follow what you are getting at here.

Only that the statue in Daniel is used as an index for what later chapters cover in greater detail. The seals are the same as the statue, a vision that is about things that 'will be'.

I agree that Christ could be revealed "in Angelic form" (I guess), but I don't see what it has to do with Rev 8. Could you explain?

If the 1st seal is about (God, the Holy Spirit and/or Christ) then what that seal mentions unfolds in physical form when those coals are tossed to the earth. The first 4 trumps could certainly cause a loss of peace and famine.

The pale horse introduces two. Death and hell, The 5th & 6th trumps would seem to qualify as what those things could look like.

The 5th seal would be part of the 2nd woe in that it includes the death of the two witnesses.

The 6th seal is about the return of Christ, the event marked by the sound of the 7th trump, described in Re:16 as the pouring out of the 7 vials.

There should be several times that Christ is visibly doing something in Revelations.

[TheForgiven]

I would certainly agree that there is a connection, I just not totally convinced of one thing. The OD could cover events from when it is written, the seals can only cover events from when the time of the end starts. There is a part of time that is covered by the OD alone.

M't:24:6:
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:
see that ye be not troubled:
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Does that come before of after this verse?
Re:1:1:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

One of my thoughts has always been that Revelation wasn't entirely about future events. Many aspects of it may have been future, but let me give you an example. In Revelation, John sees a sign in heaven.

Revelation 12:
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 And she, being with child, cried, travailing in birth and in pain to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a manchild, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and to His throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

In Revelation chapter 12, we see a heavenly vision which "reveals" a spiritual truth. Not all of Revelation is about Prophesy, for much of it is a revealing of spiritual truths. Chapter 12 reveals that Christ was born, and Satan used the Beast (7 heads and 10 horns) to devour the "male child", which we know is Christ. I'm aware of the Historicist's who claim that the "male child" is the Church. But that doesn't work because that would presuppose a raptured Church while Satan attacks the rest of her offspring, as indicated in the following chapter. It would also show that the Church is male and not female, although I suppose it could be male considering the Church is often recognized as the "body of Christ". But in this case, we are not seeing a future event, even from the time frame Revelation was written. This was a spiritual truth about the Messiah, the devils attempt to prevent His birth, and the resurrection of Jesus into heaven, thereby making this a past event from the time it was written. Subsequently, this led to Satan becoming furious, which resulted in his attempt to destroy Israel. Israel is the woman clothed with the moon and a garland of 12 stars, and it was her that gave birth to Jesus....literally Mary, but spiritual it was Israel, for Israel brought forth the "Seed" through which the Messiah could be born.

Therefore, the OD matches perfectly with the seals, and IMO, the seals is a representation [or spiritual truth] of what was about to happen to Jerusalem.

A mistake I often see people make is they assume that Revelation in its entirety is sequential, from the first chapter to the last. However, IMO, it not sequential, but the same events from a different perspective. The seals appear to be the preparation of Jerusalem's end and it explains how everything got started, as well as why it got started.

Then you move to the trumpets. Trumpets are symbolic in this case, while in the Old Testament it was literal. But the symbolic trumpet has to do with attacks. So each trumpet is a new wave of attacks. The "Woe's" are a result of these attacks, and after the Woes, the final two trumpets are blown and the seventh trumpet completes the end....Jerusalem is destroyed.

7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

John then shifts to the Beasts point of view, describing the same events of the seals and trumpets, but this time we're catching a glimpse from the enemies perspective. He's told to eat the scroll and prophesy about peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages:

8 Then the voice which I heard from heaven spoke to me again and said, “Go, take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel who stands on the sea and on the earth.” 9 So I went to the angel and said to him, “Give me the little book.” And he said to me, “Take and eat it; and it will make your stomach bitter, but it will be as sweet as honey in your mouth.” 10 Then I took the little book out of the angel’s hand and ate it, and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth. But when I had eaten it, my stomach became bitter. 11 And he said to me, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings.”

These things occur during the last two trumpets, 6 and 7. This represents the 42 months of Gentile trampling. Subsequently, by this time period the Church has already fled from Jerusalem, as indicated in the previous chapter where she is led into the wilderness during these last 42 months.

1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Jerusalem is trampled, the two Witnesses prophesy for 42 months.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I would certainly agree that there is a connection, I just not totally convinced of one thing. The OD could cover events from when it is written, the seals can only cover events from when the time of the end starts. There is a part of time that is covered by the OD alone.

It seems to me that the OD and Rev are talking about the same series of events, and both start at roughly the same time. That's why Rev begins with "the things that must shortly come to pass ... for the time is at hand." Of course, that demands a pre 70 AD date of composition which is highly contested by some folks.

M't:24:6:
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:
see that ye be not troubled:
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Does that come before of after this verse?
Re:1:1:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Probably after since it corresponds to the Red Horse in Rev 6.

M't:24:14:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.

Re:14:6:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation,
and kindred,
and tongue,
and people,

That's a very important OD-Rev pair. But its important to understand that I interpret "all the earth" there as "all the inhabited land" centered on Jerusalem and extending as far out as Paul's travels.

The next event after this is Christ claiming the Earth.

The abomination mentioned is still a yet to be thing. It is when Satan & Co do this,

Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword,
and did live.

If that image has anything to do with this verse then they are in Jerusalem.
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

I agree that 2 Thess 2:4 is linked to the AOD. But I believe that is long past, it happened in the literal Temple just prior to its desolation in 70 AD.

The abomination mentioned in Daniel is not in ch:9, this is the abomination that is the sign to scatter (if you are in Judea)

Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

I don't have a strong opinion about Dan 11 yet. It requires more study. But I am convinced that Dan 9 is fulfilled with the Christ in 30-33 AD, which led to the physical destruction in 70 AD. Note that Dan 9:26 does not place the destruction in the 70th week, but allows for it to happen after which is key.

So you believe the events of Revelation are still future? Myself, I think they were fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the scattering of the Jews, as Christ predicted:

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

For the most part, one exception is that ch:12 seems to cover 3 times Satan had had dealings with man, the 3 most important. Eve, the time Jesus was here, and the time he still has coming.

Eve? Are you saying the woman in Chpt 12 is Eve? I see her as Israel "from whom is the Christ (manchild)."

So you see Rev as mostly future. That's interesing. Do you have any verses that support that idea?

Perhaps I should rephrase my comment. A lot of events are repeated in Scripture, the more important the event the more verses. Say there is one event covered in all of the 1st four Gospels, they all basically say the same thing but unless you read all of them there is a chance some point may be in one report but not in the other 3.

I am not saying there is no relationship. It is just from a slightly different POV than the seals. This verse would seem to cover more than 1 seal,

M't:24:7:
For nation shall rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom:
and there shall be famines,
and pestilences,
and earthquakes,
in divers places.
M't:24:8:
All these are the beginning of sorrows.

It sure seems to cover more than 1. The first few trumps would also be enough to at least start the same consequences.

Yes, there are lots of "overlaps."

The second rider is red and he has a sword. Romans 13 speaks of servants of God that are given a sword to combat evil with. More or less that would be the governments of the Nations. Red meaning that the use the sword for something other than originally intended, to the detriment of the people it is supposed to protect.

That seems like a bit of a stretch because the symbol is one of warfare, not governmental rule.

Well, I'm starting to get an idea of how you understand things. It usually takes a little while to just understand someone's basic interpretational approach to Rev. And on that note, it might be more fruitful if you took a "step back" and introduced me to your basic presuppositions about Biblical eschatology. Myself, I'm pretty well described as a "preterist" so long as you don't import conclusions concerning the "Second Coming" and the "Resurrection" being past. I believe all of Revelation is fulfilled - the New Jerusalem is the Church, etc. There's a lot to talk about ... it should be fun, and hopefully fruitful.

God bless!

Richard