Jesus is not God

[Rose]

Dear Richard and Rose,

Please excuse the sarcasm, however, before you recieve answer from here concerning such knee-jerk reaction questions, if you will answer with an emphatic truthful yes to the following question, i can provide appropriate answers:

Out of well over 30,000 verses in the Bible, do you really believe you are doing yourselves or the scriptures any justice drawing conclusions based on a handful or less of verses?

Seriously.

Sincerely,

Timmy

My dear friend Timmy, not only are we doing ourselves justice, but hopefully any other soul that can open up their eyes long enough to see the truth.

Do you really think it would be acceptable if even one verse out of 30,000 in the Bible condoned rape and murder? Everyone who has studied Scripture is well aware of the power of one verse...take for instance the Jewish kosher law that forbids the eating of meat and milk together...it comes from one verse out of the entire Old Testament! There are many other similar examples, so I don't need to list them all out, but I'm sure you get my point

The sad thing is that there are far more than a mere handful of verses that speak of things we today would consider immoral and that's not even counting the verses that are so far over the top they stand head and shoulders with the likes of Hitler

Enough for tonight,
Rose

[Bob May]

My dear friend Timmy, not only are we doing ourselves justice, but hopefully any other soul that can open up their eyes long enough to see the truth.

Do you really think it would be acceptable if even one verse out of 30,000 in the Bible condoned rape and murder? Everyone who has studied Scripture is well aware of the power of one verse...take for instance the Jewish kosher law that forbids the eating of meat and milk together...it comes from one verse out of the entire Old Testament! There are many other similar examples, so I don't need to list them all out, but I'm sure you get my point

The sad thing is that there are far more than a mere handful of verses that speak of things we today would consider immoral and that's not even counting the verses that are so far over the top they stand head and shoulders with the likes of Hitler

Enough for tonight,
Rose

Hi Rose, Timmy, Richard and all,

The wars are allegorical, metaphysical, supposed history to those who read them and still read them.
The Midianites are thoughts inside of us that must be destroyed. Wrong ways of thinking. Similar to those that "dwell in/on the earth" in the book of Revelations. We wrestle with these wrong ways of earthly thinking and find that they keep coming back, they must be destroyed completely. That usually only occurs by the Spirit of God.
We are powerless of our own selves. And the more we try to accomplish our own perfection the more we find that what we thought we had accomplished rears it's ugly head again.

Ro 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Midyaniy {mid-yaw-nee'} patronymical or patrial from 04080;; adj AV - Midianite 4, Midianitish woman 2, Midianitish 1; 7 Midianite = see Midian "strife" 1) a member of the tribe of Midian 2) an inhabitant of the land of Midian

So Midian is strife, Amorites are lustful thoughts and each of the peoples and tribes that battle the Israelites must be done away with. But we cannot do it ourselves. Because it is ourselves we are battling.
It is like telling a small boy not to put his hand near a flame. Until he actually gets burned he will not heed the warning.

Personal experience of God is the only thing that changes us. That is what Jesus came to show us. The cleansing of our thoughts and emotions comes by the power of God and only by the power of God.
Whether reading the Old Testament as history or metaphysically, we are supposed to come to the end of ourselves. That is what is mean by the end of the law is Christ. And the law shall lead you to Christ.
We don't climb the ladder that reaches to heaven by our own efforts. The ladder (Jesus) was sent to us to show us a better way.
We don't climb it we enter it. It is not a tower of bricks which are man made (Babel) it is a house of God Bethel that we are told to dwell in.

Ge 35:1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.

When we have an experience of the presence of God we are supposed to abide, stay and dwell there.

Just my take,
Bob

[Charisma]

Hi Bob,

Thank you for bringing some basic interpretation to bear on the word of God under discussion, and much more.

We wrestle with these wrong ways of earthly thinking and find that they keep coming back, they must be destroyed completely. That usually only occurs by the Spirit of God. We are powerless of our own selves. And the more we try to accomplish our own perfection the more we find that what we thought we had accomplished rears it's ugly head again.... Personal experience of God is the only thing that changes us. That is what Jesus came to show us. The cleansing of our thoughts and emotions comes by the power of God and only by the power of God.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye

through the Spirit

do mortify

the deeds of the body,

ye shall live.

As God makes us aware of things which require mortification, He helps us by tipping the balance in favour of successful mortification, by/through the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus, He and we are co-operating with each other for the accomplishment of a goal which He has left in our hands/hearts to choose, which would be beyond us without His help, and which is beyond Him without ours. It is a MAGNIFICENT plan!!

When we have an experience of the presence of God we are supposed to abide, stay and dwell there.

Amen. Building our house on the Rock of His word - a sure foundation - a refuge from trouble.

[Charisma]

Hi Rose,

Today I happed upon another most apposite verse to my previous post to you, and so I'd like to share it. 'that glory may dwell in our land'

Psalm 85:9

Surely his salvation

[is] nigh them that fear him;

that glory may dwell in our land.


'that glory may dwell in our land'. What is our land?

Is it not the dust of the earth from which we are wonderfully formed, our bodies?


2 Corinthians 4:7

But we have this treasure [ie this glory] in[side] earthen vessels,

that the excellency

of the power

may be of God,

and not of us.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

To a rapist, young and virgins are preferred if not any hole "soiled" or "unsoiled" will do as long as it satisfies his sexual gratification. As evidenced in modern wars, some soldiers don't just rape virgins, they rape also married women, men, children. Why did they raped? To demoralize and punish their enemy, ensure their generations, ethnic cleansing, thrill and fun, to revenge against their enemy for doing the same etc.

You missed the point again. We are not talking about "rapists" per se. We are talking about the distribution of virgins as "war booty" to the soldiers. It is obvious that the captured virgins who just saw their whole family, all their friends, and their entire community murdered by the soldiers would not willingly have sex with them. Thus, when the soldiers took them "to be wives" they were raped. It looks to me like you are deliberately confusing the issue to avoid the obvious implications.

And what was the Divine Law concerning sex with captured virgins? It says that the soldiers could fuck them, and if they didn't like them they could just put them out:

Deuteronomy 21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; 13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

The word "humbled her" means "had sexual intercourse with her."

I don't see how anyone could think that the infinitely Wise and Good God could give such a law. It is a moral abomination.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Dear Richard and Rose,

Please excuse the sarcasm, however, before you recieve answer from here concerning such knee-jerk reaction questions, if you will answer with an emphatic truthful yes to the following question, i can provide appropriate answers:

Out of well over 30,000 verses in the Bible, do you really believe you are doing yourselves or the scriptures any justice drawing conclusions based on a handful or less of verses?

Seriously.

Sincerely,

Timmy

Hey there Timmy!

Great question. I like Rose's answer that it only takes one moral abomination attributed to God to destroy the dogma that the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God. And like she said, single verses in the Bible have been used to create mountains of doctrines. If God were the author of Scripture, why would he confound us so by giving us any immoral commands at all?

But your point fails on an even more significant point. There are many more than just a "handful" of verses that present God in a bad light. Case in point - we are talking about the entire chapter of Numbers 31 - not just one verse. And worse, the rape of the 32,000 virgins is endorsed in Deuteronomy:

Deuteronomy 21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; 13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

The word "humbled her" means "had sexual intercourse with her." Now we have "cross-referenced" support for the rape of "desirable" virgins given to the soldiers as "war booty" (can't pass up that pun!).

And we have more confirmation that the Bible God endorses the kidnapping and rape of virgins for "reproductive use" in the final three chapters of Judges in which God himself enables the 11 tribes to murder every man, woman, and child of the TRIBE OF BENJAMIN except for 600 soldiers hiding in a cave (Judges 20:28,35). But then they had a problem - they had agreed not to give the tribe of Benjamin any of their daughters for wives (Judges 21:1)! So what was the solution that God endorsed? MURDER every man, woman, and child of the city of Jabeshgilead and take 400 virgins and distribute them to the soldiers!

Judges 21:10-12 10 And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children. 11 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. 12 And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.

But they didn't capture enough virgins, so they had to kidnap another group that were on their way to celebrate before the LORD:

Judges 21:19 Then they said, Behold, there is a feast of the LORD in Shiloh yearly in a place which is on the north side of Bethel, on the east side of the highway that goeth up from Bethel to Shechem, and on the south of Lebonah. 20 Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards; 21 And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.

Consider what this means. We have THREE LARGE PASSAGES in Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Judges that all endorse the capture of "virgins" for "reproductive use" by the soldiers. Scholars have noted the strong similarity between the actions in Judges and Numbers and have suggested that the commands by God (Moses) in Numbers may well have been used as a precedent for the actions in Judges.

I hope this answers your question Timmy. We are not talking about one or two verses out of 30,000. We are talking about a large set of mutually confirming verses that teach a variety of moral abominations (genocidal murder, kidnapping, rape, degradation of women). And there are a lot of other verses that teach the similar things.

All the best,

Richard

[Rose]

Hi Rose, Timmy, Richard and all,

The wars are allegorical, metaphysical, supposed history to those who read them and still read them.
The Midianites are thoughts inside of us that must be destroyed. Wrong ways of thinking. Similar to those that "dwell in/on the earth" in the book of Revelations. We wrestle with these wrong ways of earthly thinking and find that they keep coming back, they must be destroyed completely. That usually only occurs by the Spirit of God.
We are powerless of our own selves. And the more we try to accomplish our own perfection the more we find that what we thought we had accomplished rears it's ugly head again.

Hi Bob,

I think the idea that is promoted in Christianity that says "we are powerless of our own selves" is preciously what shuts down ones ability to rise above their circumstances. Each individual has the power within themselves to create a harmonious reality. Many religions teach that we as individuals are powerless to change our lives and that it is only through a supernatural deity that change can come about, whereas in reality we are the only ones who can make anything happen in our lives and the world around us. Our purpose is to make this world a better place by being co/creators of reality...we are the only ones who can make it happen.

Personal experience of God is the only thing that changes us. That is what Jesus came to show us. The cleansing of our thoughts and emotions comes by the power of God and only by the power of God.
Whether reading the Old Testament as history or metaphysically, we are supposed to come to the end of ourselves. That is what is mean by the end of the law is Christ. And the law shall lead you to Christ.
We don't climb the ladder that reaches to heaven by our own efforts. The ladder (Jesus) was sent to us to show us a better way.
We don't climb it we enter it. It is not a tower of bricks which are man made (Babel) it is a house of God Bethel that we are told to dwell in.

Ge 35:1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.

When we have an experience of the presence of God we are supposed to abide, stay and dwell there.

Just my take,
Bob

Once again, I believe that it is only we "ourselves" that can make things happen and change our thoughts. If we believe that change can only happen through God, we are then limited by the interpretation of words written in a book, which in turn shuts down free thinking and open-ended search for truth. Camping out on the stepping stone of the Bible, keeps us from continuing down the path on the journey of life and exploring each new stepping stone along the way.

All the best to you my friend,
Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Rose, Timmy, Richard and all,

The wars are allegorical, metaphysical, supposed history to those who read them and still read them.

The Midianites are thoughts inside of us that must be destroyed. Wrong ways of thinking. Similar to those that "dwell in/on the earth" in the book of Revelations. We wrestle with these wrong ways of earthly thinking and find that they keep coming back, they must be destroyed completely. That usually only occurs by the Spirit of God.
We are powerless of our own selves. And the more we try to accomplish our own perfection the more we find that what we thought we had accomplished rears it's ugly head again.

Ro 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Hey there Bob,

OK - if the OT is ahistorical, then why believe any of it? And worse, if the text can be made to say anything we want, why can't I just say that Jesus is a "metaphysical myth" too? Or better, a hockey-playing space alien? If there is nothing in the Bible that means what it says, what good is it?

For example, the concept of "sin" is a rather backwards, limiting, primitive concept that messes with peoples thinking, so why don't we just reinterpret it to mean "error" as in "misconception?" That's what Mary Baker Eddie did. It made for a much more comfy religion.

Personal experience of God is the only thing that changes us. That is what Jesus came to show us. The cleansing of our thoughts and emotions comes by the power of God and only by the power of God.

Great. That's you belief. But is there any reason anyone else should believe it? You reject a lot of what the Bible plainly states, so I'm sure you won't mind if I reject this point.

It seems to me that we eviscerate the Bible of all meaning if we use it the way you suggest. It has absolutely no power to convince anyone of anything if we are free to reinterpret everything.

Whether reading the Old Testament as history or metaphysically, we are supposed to come to the end of ourselves. That is what is mean by the end of the law is Christ. And the law shall lead you to Christ.

Christ is just a symbol of my self, right? Cosmic Consciousness. Whatever. We have moved far away from anything that sounds like "Biblical Christianity." So again, you have retained only the smile of the Cheshire cat - the "aura" of "authority" that comes with the Bible, now eviscerated of any compelling meaning.

We don't climb the ladder that reaches to heaven by our own efforts. The ladder (Jesus) was sent to us to show us a better way.
We don't climb it we enter it. It is not a tower of bricks which are man made (Babel) it is a house of God Bethel that we are told to dwell in.

Why interpret that way? There are a thousand different "mystical ways" to interpret anything. Pandora's Hermeneutical Box.

Great chatting,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Once again, I believe that it is only we "ourselves" that can make things happen and change our thoughts. If we believe that change can only happen through God, we are then limited by the interpretation of words written in a book, which in turn shuts down free thinking and open-ended search for truth. Camping out on the stepping stone of the Bible, keeps us from continuing down the path on the journey of life and exploring each new stepping stone along the way.

All the best to you my friend,
Rose

Actually, it seems to me that Bob has demonstrated that he is not "limited" by anything written in the Bible. On the contrary, the Bible has become "silly puddy" in Bob's hands, so that he can mold it to say anything he wants.

Bob - I hope you don't find that comment offensive, but I really do think it is a rather precise description of your hermeneutical methodology.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Bob,

Thank you for bringing some basic interpretation to bear on the word of God under discussion, and much more.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye

through the Spirit

do mortify

the deeds of the body,

ye shall live.

As God makes us aware of things which require mortification, He helps us by tipping the balance in favour of successful mortification, by/through the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus, He and we are co-operating with each other for the accomplishment of a goal which He has left in our hands/hearts to choose, which would be beyond us without His help, and which is beyond Him without ours. It is a MAGNIFICENT plan!!

Amen. Building our house on the Rock of His word - a sure foundation - a refuge from trouble.

Hi Charisma,

I am mystified by your response to Bob. Do you agree with his assertion that the OT history is non-historical and metaphorical? Most Christians would see that as a direct attack upon the integrity of Scripture. The fact that you skipped over his main point and gave "amens" to the bits and peices you agreed with seems very strange.

Great chatting!

Richard