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  1. #1
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    The Centurions belief at Jesus' death

    Hey,

    In Mark 15:39 ,

    "Now when the centurion, who stood opposite him, saw that he cried out like this and breathed his last, he said" truly this man was the son of God."

    An assumption can be made that the roman centurion did not understand the words "Eloi,Eloi ,lama sabachthani ?"( they are transliterations of aramaic and hebrew)
    because even the jews listening did not understand his words.They mistook him- that he hadbeen calling for Elijah...

    Then why is it that at Jesus' death the centurion believed him to be the "Son Of God"??

    ref: Mark 15:39,Mark 15:34, Mark 15:16, Mathew 27:54,
    and is theevents in mathew 27 :52 symbolic or factual??

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by zack View Post
    Hey,

    In Mark 15:39 ,

    "Now when the centurion, who stood opposite him, saw that he cried out like this and breathed his last, he said" truly this man was the son of God."

    An assumption can be made that the roman centurion did not understand the words "Eloi,Eloi ,lama sabachthani ?"( they are transliterations of aramaic and hebrew)
    because even the jews listening did not understand his words.They mistook him- that he hadbeen calling for Elijah...

    Then why is it that at Jesus' death the centurion believed him to be the "Son Of God"??

    ref: Mark 15:39,Mark 15:34, Mark 15:16, Mathew 27:54,
    and is theevents in mathew 27 :52 symbolic or factual??
    It is believed that Jesus was son of a Roman soldier, called Pantera http://robinhl.com/2011/11/06/jesus-son-of-pantera/

    This might also be expressed in Mark 6:3,
    Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
    since it doesn't mention the father.

    So then Jesus was a bastard, maybe also known by the centurion.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by zack View Post
    In Mark 15:39
    "Now when the centurion, who stood opposite him, saw that he cried out like this and breathed his last, he said" truly this man was the son of God."
    An assumption can be made that the roman centurion did not understand the words "Eloi,Eloi ,lama sabachthani ?"( they are transliterations of aramaic and hebrew) because even the jews listening did not understand his words.They mistook him- that he hadbeen calling for Elijah...

    Then why is it that at Jesus' death the centurion believed him to be the "Son Of God"??
    ref: Mark 15:39,Mark 15:34, Mark 15:16, Mathew 27:54,
    and is theevents in mathew 27 :52 symbolic or factual??
    Zack, you still there? Figure the centurion knew about "My God, My God" from Psalm 22, and recognized Jesus quoting scripture. (Lk23:47 a different thought..) As for Mt 27:52 and bodies from graves, must be factual 'cause I can't imagine how it would be figurative.

    Aside to Sylvie..bite your tongue! DNA to Jesus!! 'Preciate the speech from Shicklegruber though--hadn't realized he preached..
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by zack View Post
    Hey,
    Then why is it that at Jesus' death the centurion believed him to be the "Son Of God"??
    Hello Zack
    Welcome to the forum
    It is not surprising when you consider the story of the Roman centurion. Do you not think Roman centurions would discuss such things?

    Matthew 8
    5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
    6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
    7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
    8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
    9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
    10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.


    This Roman centurion knew where Jesus's power and authority came from (his Heavenly Father)

    David

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by zack View Post
    Hey,

    In Mark 15:39 ,

    "Now when the centurion, who stood opposite him, saw that he cried out like this and breathed his last, he said" truly this man was the son of God."

    An assumption can be made that the roman centurion did not understand the words "Eloi,Eloi ,lama sabachthani ?"( they are transliterations of aramaic and hebrew)
    because even the jews listening did not understand his words.They mistook him- that he hadbeen calling for Elijah...

    Then why is it that at Jesus' death the centurion believed him to be the "Son Of God"??

    ref: Mark 15:39,Mark 15:34, Mark 15:16, Mathew 27:54,
    and is theevents in mathew 27 :52 symbolic or factual??
    Hello Zack .... welcome to our Forum ...

    To be able to answer your question of why the centurion believed Jesus to be the son of god at his death, one must first take into account a number of factors. First, the Gospel of Mark was written decades after the death of Jesus by an unknown author who compiled it from a variety of oral sources, miracle stories circulating at the time, and parables ... many of which he possibly rewrote. There is no evidence other than what is written in the Bible that confirms there was ever a Roman centurion at all, most probably the whole story was made up by the author of Mark's Gospel, or reconstructed from other circulating stories of the time.

    Remember, this was written at least 30 years after the death of Jesus, and even accounts that get written down days after an event tend to get corrupted. This is why the Gospel accounts are so contradictory of each other on many of the important narratives, like the birth account and the burial and resurrection account. Even in this day and age with video recordings of events things get corrupted, imagine what it was like when everything was passed down by word of mouth. Ask three different people who each witnessed the same event and you will get three different stories. There are many, many questions that will never be able to be answered, simply because the answers are lost to history.

    Best regards,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  6. #6
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    Hello Rose
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    This is why the Gospel accounts are so contradictory of each other on many of the important narratives
    You make your position obviously clear, which is that you do not understand the word of God. Now that you have convinced yourself that the Bible is man-made and is not a collection of inspired works, you have no intention of finding the harmony of the gospels that you never found before you gave up.

    There are many who will disagree with your perspective of the Bible. There is harmony in the gospels; you just have to look for it. It is the sum of the differences that make the whole. The differences are not subtractive but additive. If they all read the same, then I would agree that copying would have taken place and there would be no need to have four gospels, when one would suffice.

    Everyone has to satisfy their own mind by answering the question; why are there four gospel records? The answer has already been given in part. The full answer is to understand what each author intended to convey about the role of Jesus and to understand who the intended the target audience was at the time the gospel was written.

    All the best
    David

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by zack View Post
    Hey,

    In Mark 15:39 ,

    "Now when the centurion, who stood opposite him, saw that he cried out like this and breathed his last, he said" truly this man was the son of God."

    An assumption can be made that the roman centurion did not understand the words "Eloi,Eloi ,lama sabachthani ?"( they are transliterations of aramaic and hebrew)
    because even the jews listening did not understand his words.They mistook him- that he hadbeen calling for Elijah...

    Then why is it that at Jesus' death the centurion believed him to be the "Son Of God"??

    ref: Mark 15:39,Mark 15:34, Mark 15:16, Mathew 27:54,
    and is theevents in mathew 27 :52 symbolic or factual??


    The Greek text doesn't say "the son of God", but "(a) son of God"

    Ἰδὼν δὲ ὁ κεντυρίων ὁ παρεστηκὼς ἐξ ἐναντίας αὐτοῦ ὅτι οὕτως ἐξέπνευσεν εἶπεν, Ἀληθῶς οὗτος ὁ ἄνθρωπος υἱὸς θεοῦ ἦν.

    and note ἦν = was.

    For him Jesus was dead, confirmed in v.44.45: Pilate was surprised to hear that he should have already died. And summoning the centurion, he asked him whether he was already dead. And when he learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the corpse to Joseph.


    Mark does play here with "corpse" versus "body".

    For the centurion and Pilate it was just a corpse , πτῶμα

    For Joseph of Arimateia a body, σῶμα

    Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.


    The body that had already been anointed by a woman, Mark 14:8, She has done what she could; she has anointed my body beforehand for burial.


    And after Matthew 24:28, Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
    Last edited by sylvius; 02-27-2014 at 02:27 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose


    You make your position obviously clear, which is that you do not understand the word of God. Now that you have convinced yourself that the Bible is man-made and is not a collection of inspired works, you have no intention of finding the harmony of the gospels that you never found before you gave up.

    There are many who will disagree with your perspective of the Bible. There is harmony in the gospels; you just have to look for it. It is the sum of the differences that make the whole. The differences are not subtractive but additive. If they all read the same, then I would agree that copying would have taken place and there would be no need to have four gospels, when one would suffice.

    Everyone has to satisfy their own mind by answering the question; why are there four gospel records? The answer has already been given in part. The full answer is to understand what each author intended to convey about the role of Jesus and to understand who the intended the target audience was at the time the gospel was written.

    All the best
    David
    Hello David,

    Quite the contrary! I do not deny that the many parts of the Bible are inspired, neither do I deny that there is harmony amongst the Gospels. All religions have their inspired works, but that in no way means they are god given ... just like there are many secular works that are inspired. Inspiration does not mean god given.

    Of course there is harmony in the Gospels, but there is also contradiction too, which directly points towards its human authorship. I just found another contradiction in the Gospels yesterday, having to do with Jesus sending forth the twelve disciples. In Matthews account they are not to take shoes or staves on their journey, but in Marks account they are told to wear shoes and take a staff. Now which is it? Are the disciples suppose to take a staff or not, and are they suppose to wear shoes or not? You can't have it both ways! Somebody got their story wrong.


    Matt.10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

    Mark 10:7-9 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits; And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse: But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.


    The reason there are four Gospels, is because only four works were deemed good enough by various councils, to make it into the finalized cannon. The Bible has went through many changes over its long history, and even today there are quite a number of variations, especially between the Catholic and Protestant Bibles.


    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #9
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    Hello Rose
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello David,

    Quite the contrary! I do not deny that the many parts of the Bible are inspired, neither do I deny that there is harmony amongst the Gospels. All religions have their inspired works, but that in no way means they are god given ... just like there are many secular works that are inspired. Inspiration does not mean god given.
    I should have said God (Holy Spirit)-inspired. I thought you would realize that was what I meant.

    Of course, inspiration that comes from other sources and is speaking for God are works of fiction and then your point is valid. Either the scriptures on which the Bible is based were inspired as a result of God's Holy Spirit or they were not. How exactly the Holy Spirit inspires is something we do not know. In support of (2 Timothy 3:16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, , Peter believed that prophecy in the scriptures was inspired (2 Peter 2:21)For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Of course there is harmony in the Gospels, but there is also contradiction too, which directly points towards its human authorship. I just found another contradiction in the Gospels yesterday, having to do with Jesus sending forth the twelve disciples. In Matthews account they are not to take shoes or staves on their journey, but in Marks account they are told to wear shoes and take a staff. Now which is it? Are the disciples suppose to take a staff or not, and are they suppose to wear shoes or not? You can't have it both ways! Somebody got their story wrong.
    Then obviously, harmony in the Gospels is of no worth to you. Maybe the contradiction you cite is not in the original inspiration, but the error comes from translation. We are not saying that translation is inspired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Matt.10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

    Mark 10:7-9 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits; And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse: But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
    This is really a trivial example and not worthy grounds for rejecting the Bible. The example you have given does not show error in the authorship, but in the translation.

    We have the same Greek words to translate from, yet we get different translations that ought to be in agreement. Therefore, we have to find agreement between the translations by seeing how else the translations could be worded.

    Compare what we have in the KJV with how the Greek is translated in the Diaglott:

    Matthew 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
    (From the Dialgott) 9 Provide neither Gold, nor Silver, nor Copper, in your GIRDLES; 10 carry no traveling bag, nor spare clothes, shoes, or staff; for the WORKMAN is worthy of his MAINTENANCE.

    Mark 6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse: 9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
    (From the Diaglott) 8 and he charged them, that they should take Nothing for the Journey, except a single Staff; no Bread, no Traveling Bag. no Copper in the girdle ; 9 but to wear sandals, and not put on Two Coats.

    We have more or less the same words but with different emphasis. I suggest that the gist of what Jesus is saying is; "wear shoes, but do not take a spare pair" (remember the Children of Israel's sandals did not wear out in the Wilderness journey which lasted 40 years). Verse 10 of Matthew can be read as if coats, shoes, staves are bracketed together; Nor scrip for your journey, neither two {coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves} As in Mathematics, the factor of 2 applies to all that is in the brackets. The word "two" was not necessary before the word "shoes" and "staves". If you wanted to resolve these trivial differences, I am sure you could have done, if you had the will to do so. The contradiction you cite is not a valid contradiction that is due to the separate authors records. They have reported the same message that Jesus spoke and that is more important than variations in translation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The reason there are four Gospels, is because only four works were deemed good enough by various councils, to make it into the finalized cannon. The Bible has went through many changes over its long history, and even today there are quite a number of variations, especially between the Catholic and Protestant Bibles.
    I agree with all that, but it makes no difference in understanding and accepting what we have now is the world of God. As far a the other works that were rejected, then I will go along with that. Just like the Book of Enoch, as it is now, was rejected and should remain rejected. The original work has obviously been corrupted and added to and is should now be regarded as a work of fiction. It does not help that we have these man-made works to mislead us. It is all part of the corruption of the truth and the lies that we have been warned to be on our guard against.
    As Jude wrote; ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Unless you know what that faith was, you are going to be deceived as I think you have been.

    All the best
    David

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose

    Then obviously, harmony in the Gospels is of no worth to you. Maybe the contradiction you cite is not in the original inspiration, but the error comes from translation. We are not saying that translation is inspired.
    Hello David,

    The worth of the Gospel harmony is that it tells me the authors of the different books copied from a main source, and where they differ I know that they got their information from other sources. No one will ever know what was in the original autographs, so picking what translation is inspired is guesswork left up to the individual.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    This is really a trivial example and not worthy grounds for rejecting the Bible. The example you have given does not show error in the authorship, but in the translation.
    The example I posted has nothing to do with my rejection of the Bible. The only reason I cited it was because I just found it yesterday and am adding it to my long list of biblical contradictions.

    You have no way of knowing whether it was an error in authorship or translation, so neither account can be trusted. The same holds true for all the other contradictions contained in the Bible, we have no way of knowing which account is true, therefore they must all be rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    We have the same Greek words to translate from, yet we get different translations that ought to be in agreement. Therefore, we have to find agreement between the translations by seeing how else the translations could be worded.

    Compare what we have in the KJV with how the Greek is translated in the Diaglott:

    Matthew 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
    (From the Dialgott) 9 Provide neither Gold, nor Silver, nor Copper, in your GIRDLES; 10 carry no traveling bag, nor spare clothes, shoes, or staff; for the WORKMAN is worthy of his MAINTENANCE.

    Mark 6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse: 9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
    (From the Diaglott) 8 and he charged them, that they should take Nothing for the Journey, except a single Staff; no Bread, no Traveling Bag. no Copper in the girdle ; 9 but to wear sandals, and not put on Two Coats.

    We have more or less the same words but with different emphasis. I suggest that the gist of what Jesus is saying is; "wear shoes, but do not take a spare pair" (remember the Children of Israel's sandals did not wear out in the Wilderness journey which lasted 40 years). Verse 10 of Matthew can be read as if coats, shoes, staves are bracketed together; Nor scrip for your journey, neither two {coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves} As in Mathematics, the factor of 2 applies to all that is in the brackets. The word "two" was not necessary before the word "shoes" and "staves". If you wanted to resolve these trivial differences, I am sure you could have done, if you had the will to do so. The contradiction you cite is not a valid contradiction that is due to the separate authors records. They have reported the same message that Jesus spoke and that is more important than variations in translation.
    All you are doing is making up reasons to justify the obvious contradiction between Matthew and Mark. A third variation lies in the Gospel of Luke, and it says that NOTHING should be taken including staves, it doesn't even mention shoes. The reason that all the Gospels say to not take two coats, is because the Greek word for coat is chiton, which means a garment or undergarment and obviously a person must wear clothes, they are just told not to take an extra set.
    Luke 9:3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.



    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I agree with all that, but it makes no difference in understanding and accepting what we have now is the world of God. As far a the other works that were rejected, then I will go along with that. Just like the Book of Enoch, as it is now, was rejected and should remain rejected. The original work has obviously been corrupted and added to and is should now be regarded as a work of fiction. It does not help that we have these man-made works to mislead us. It is all part of the corruption of the truth and the lies that we have been warned to be on our guard against.
    As Jude wrote; ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Unless you know what that faith was, you are going to be deceived as I think you have been.

    All the best
    David
    Most Christians I am sure would tell you that they are earnestly seeking the truth, yet each comes up with their own interpretation based on whatever specific teaching they are following. There is no way to ever know which translation is correct, or if any of them are. Each person is left with following their own inner witness or intuition, which varies from individual to individual.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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