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  1. #1
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    Three Days and Three Nights

    Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion proponents, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
    Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion proponents, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?
    Hey there rstrats,

    Welcome to our forum!



    That's a good question. I've never seen any evidence either way. Other than the death and resurrection of Christ, all the references in the Bible that state the time as "x days and x nights" give no additional information that would indicate the actual amount of time. So there is no way to confirm that assertion from the Bible.

    I find it very strange that interpreters are so willing to declare a "Jewish idiom" without providing any evidence of their assertion.

    Thanks for the interesting question.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
    Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion proponents, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?

    You asked the same on Theologyweb:

    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...73#post3588673

    My answer there:


    A common misconception is that Jesus should have been resurrected on the first day of the week (Sunday).

    It is in no place written that way.

    Just that on the first of the week the grave was found to be empty.

    So the "three days and three nights", or the "after three days", or the "on the third day" might allude to something else.

    I do want to contend that it alludes to the third day of creation, the day of the double "ki-tov", the two times "and God saw that it was good", where the "tov" in Genesis 1:12 is the 153rd word from the beginning.

    The first "tov" in the Bible is to be found in Genesis 1:4, "and God saw the light that it was good", the light that was obscured because of Adam's sin.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    I do want to contend that it alludes to the third day of creation, the day of the double "ki-tov", the two times "and God saw that it was good", where the "tov" in Genesis 1:12 is the 153rd word from the beginning.
    Is there any way for anyone to know if your contention is true or not?

    And if it is true, what does it matter? Why would it be important to know such a thing?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Is there any way for anyone to know if your contention is true or not?

    And if it is true, what does it matter? Why would it be important to know such a thing?
    It was about the resurrection "after three days" or "on the third day".

    Death is there becuase of sin, death and sin belong together, even like pain and pleasure, "nega" and "oneg", both with gematria 123, a permutation of 231, i,e. bound to your wheel with the 22 spokes and the 231 gates.
    http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/231Gates.php



    Maybe you should burn a good incense to perceive ...

    Exodus 30:37,

    And the incense that you make, you shall not make for yourselves according to its formula; it shall be holy to you for the Lord.



    (The lord whose name is in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim")

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Is there any way for anyone to know if your contention is true or not?

    And if it is true, what does it matter? Why would it be important to know such a thing?
    It was about the resurrection "after three days" or "on the third day".

    Death is there becuase of sin, death and sin belong together, even like pain and pleasure, "nega" and "oneg", both with gematria 123, a permutation of 231, i,e. bound to your wheel with the 22 spokes and the 231 gates.
    http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/231Gates.php



    Maybe you should burn a good incense to perceive ...

    Exodus 30:37,

    And the incense that you make, you shall not make for yourselves according to its formula; it shall be holy to you for the Lord.



    (The lord whose name is in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim"))
    You didn't even try to answer my question.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    You didn't even try to answer my question.
    Yes i did,
    Is there any way for anyone to know if your contention is true or not?
    Smoke a good pot with the right intention.

  8. #8
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    What would determine this for me is if someone can accurately give the date and the days in the week Jesus died. If we can determine from the start of the new moon and the start of the new year etc., whether in the week Jesus died, whether the weekly Sabbath coincided with the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which was a Sabbath. Once we determine whether there is one Sabbath or two that week determines the exact time Jesus was in the grave.

    At the moment, from the evidence presented, I am siding for the three days and three nights representing 72 hours. Just for a moment when I came across the calendar based on the lunar cycle and the fact that the 1st of each month had been made a Sabbath, this almost made me accept the part-day argument, but I have since not accepted that calendar because of the refutation of others.

    The only problem verse which on the surface throws doubt on the three days and three nights is when Jesus meets up with the disciples on the road to Emmaus and the disciples said; (Luke 24:21) But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. Is the intended expression the author intended or could the words have been more accurately translated?

    Jesus was killed and put in the grave before sundown. The clock begins. The start of the day begins in the evening. Although we say this is the start of the 1st day, it is day 0. only when the day is complete can we number that as 1 day completed. The next day is the start of day 2 with 1 day completed. Hence we come to day 4 we have three days completed. We also must keep in mind that Jesus was put in the grave before Sundown and so Jesus rose 72 hours later before the Sabbath day had ended. Jesus did not rise on the first day of the week. The two disciples were in fact saying; three days have gone by since these things were done.

    This seems like a small change to the wording which can alter the sense significantly. Looking at some other translations, the New Living Translation (2007) says; We had hoped he was the Messiah who had come to rescue Israel. This all happened three days ago

    It might seem a small thing but the time Jesus was in the tomb could have easily thought to have started at sundown and the beginning of the Sabbath and those few hours before forgotten about. In this case, the the two disciples would have been correct and that day (to them) was the third day. The women had already seen the tomb empty that morning and so Jesus could have been considered to have risen early that day or the night before. In either case, Jesus was risen by the third day.

    Luke 24:21 although at first sight presents a problem, and will be used by those to support the part-day theory, there is plenty of reason for saying the expression the translators have used could have been worded slightly differently, which would have greatly shifted the argument and would mean that Jesus had been in the grave precisely 72 hours. We can think that the disciples had been a little lax in their calculation; forgetting the fact that Jesus had been laid in the tomb moments before sundown and the beginning of the Sabbath on the Thursday (5th day).

    As I said at the start of this post, what would clinch this (for me) is knowing precisely when the beginning of that year was. This would settle whether the weekly Sabbath coincided with the Sabbath which was a high day at the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Does anyone know for certain the precise calendar according to God's reckoning of time?


    David
    Last edited by David M; 05-21-2013 at 02:45 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    What would determine this for me is if someone can accurately give the date and the days in the week Jesus died. If we can determine from the start of the new moon and the start of the new year etc., whether in the week Jesus died, whether the weekly Sabbath coincided with the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which was a Sabbath. Once we determine whether there is one Sabbath or two that week determines the exact time Jesus was in the grave.

    At the moment, from the evidence presented, I am siding for the three days and three nights representing 72 hours. Just for a moment when I came across the calendar based on the lunar cycle and the fact that the 1st of each month had been made a Sabbath, this almost made me accept the part-day argument, but I have since not accepted that calendar because of the refutation of others.

    The only problem verse which on the surface throws doubt on the three days and three nights is when Jesus meets up with the disciples on the road to Emmaus and the disciples said; (Luke 24:21) But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. Is the intended expression the author intended or could the words have been more accurately translated?

    Jesus was killed and put in the grave before sundown. The clock begins. The start of the day begins in the evening. Although we say this is the start of the 1st day, it is day 0. only when the day is complete can we number that as 1 day completed. The next day is the start of day 2 with 1 day completed. Hence we come to day 4 we have three days completed. We also must keep in mind that Jesus was put in the grave before Sundown and so Jesus rose 72 hours later before the Sabbath day had ended. Jesus did not rise on the first day of the week. The two disciples were in fact saying; three days have gone by since these things were done.

    This seems like a small change to the wording which can alter the sense significantly. Looking at some other translations, the New Living Translation (2007) says; We had hoped he was the Messiah who had come to rescue Israel. This all happened three days ago

    It might seem a small thing but the time Jesus was in the tomb could have easily thought to have started at sundown and the beginning of the Sabbath and those few hours before forgotten about. In this case, the the two disciples would have been correct and that day (to them) was the third day. The women had already seen the tomb empty that morning and so Jesus could have been considered to have risen early that day or the night before. In either case, Jesus was risen by the third day.

    Luke 24:21 although at first sight presents a problem, and will be used by those to support the part-day theory, there is plenty of reason for saying the expression the translators have used could have been worded slightly differently, which would have greatly shifted the argument and would mean that Jesus had been in the grave precisely 72 hours. We can think that the disciples had been a little lax in their calculation; forgetting the fact that Jesus had been laid in the tomb moments before sundown and the beginning of the Sabbath on the Thursday (5th day).

    As I said at the start of this post, what would clinch this (for me) is knowing precisely when the beginning of that year was. This would settle whether the weekly Sabbath coincided with the Sabbath which was a high day at the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Does anyone know for certain the precise calendar according to God's reckoning of time?


    David

    Luke 24:21 Greek has: ἀλλά γε καὶ σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει ἀφ' οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο

    Translating is difficult.

    I would say: but besides all these, today is the third day since those things happened.

    What things?

    v. 18- 20:

    Greek:
    ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ εἷς ὀνόματι Κλεοπᾶς εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτόν, Σὺ μόνος παροικεῖς Ἰερουσαλὴμ καὶ οὐκ ἔγνως τὰ γενόμενα ἐν αὐτῇ ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ταύταις; καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Ποῖα; οἱ δὲ εἶπαν αὐτῷ, Τὰ περὶ Ἰησοῦ τοῦ Ναζαρηνοῦ, ὃς ἐγένετο ἀνὴρ προφήτης δυνατὸς ἐν ἔργῳ καὶ λόγῳ ἐναντίον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ παντὸς τοῦ λαοῦ, ὅπως τε παρέδωκαν αὐτὸν οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ οἱ ἄρχοντες ἡμῶν εἰς κρίμα θανάτου καὶ ἐσταύρωσαν αὐτόν.


    One of them, named Cleopas, said to him in reply, “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know of the things that have taken place there in these days?” And he replied to them, “What sort of things?” They said to him, “The things that happened to Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, how our chief priests and rulers both handed him over to a sentence of death and crucified him.



    The clue verse I think is v.35,

    καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐξηγοῦντο τὰ ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ καὶ ὡς ἐγνώσθη αὐτοῖς ἐν τῇ κλάσει τοῦ ἄρτου.

    Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread.

    Bread seems to be a human product, even a seven-stage product: plowing, sowing, reaping, threshing, grinding, kneeding, baking, yet it is a gift of God (or nature as you wish).

    The Hebrew word for sin "chet" is related to the word for wheat, "chittah"

    Bread might be seen as the resurrected kernel of wheat,
    the bread of which Jesus said: "take, this is my body".

    The disciples who went to Emmaus also were mistakenly thinking that the three days were meant to be literal three days.

  10. #10
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    Hello Sylvius

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Luke 24:21 Greek has: ἀλλά γε καὶ σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει ἀφ' οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο

    Translating is difficult.

    I would say: but besides all these, today is the third day since those things happened.
    If we consider Jesus was in the grave three full nights and three full days and that the disciples could have been lax in their determination of three days, then when it is said "three days since these things happened" what about making sense by considering that since the weekly Sabbath day was a day of rest in which no servile work was done, it was a day not to be reckoned in the counting?

    From the time the disciples spoke their words, to when Jesus was on trial was four days, but only three work-days. You might not agree with this and it is only an idea at this stage prompted by the fact that if you pay money into the bank online on a Saturday, it does not get credited to the account until Monday. The same goes for Bank holidays in which the bank closes and no transactions are credited. We have 24/7 online banking facilities and yet banks operate on 5-day week when it comes to crediting accounts and paying interest on the credits. Weekends are still a no-no when it comes to banking.

    Knowing the exact day of the week the beginning of that year was in which Jesus was killed is still the key to confirming (once and for all) the argument over the "three days and three nights" and whether there was one Sabbath or two Sabbath days that week. This would determine what we are to make of the words spoken by the two disciples.


    All the best

    David

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