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  1. #21
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    Before I get into the answers sylvius, I just want to acknowledge that it seems like you are getting frustrated with me. I'm sorry, but I am only speaking from the truth as I see it. I am definitely open for correction, and if I have erred by speaking too sharply, or if I have lacked grace, I am sorry. Shalom!

    With that, let the sparring begin!



    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I understand that part of your thesis involves the value of Genesis 1:1, but that's not the primary focus of what you are trying to say. That's why I think you need to start a thread with a well chosen title that accurately describes what you want to communicate. You are going well beyond the study of the alphanumeric and geometrical structure of Genesis 1:1 that characterizes Vernon's work. True, there is an overlap, but your ideas are uniquely yours and so you should start a thread of your own where you clearly state what you want to communicate and why. Doesn't that sound like a perfect opportunity? Why are you resisting it?
    yes that's ok.

    split it up!
    Not me ... you! I want you to start your own thread in the Gematria forum and give it the name you want.


    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    It is absurd to build doctrines from gematria.
    why then Revelation 21:15,
    The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls
    What doctrine are we supposedly building from Rev 21:15? Why did you quote that? I don't get your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    It is supposed to go the other way around. The fundamental doctrines are taught in the plain text of Scripture. God is then glorified when He reveals that He designed the alphanumeric and geometric structure of the underlying text to illustrate the plain truth taught in the plain text. Case in point: The plain text of Genesis teaches that God created the cosmos in Six Days. God illustrates this with the intrinsic sixfold symmetry of numbers derived from Genesis 1:1:
    that's what you read in it.
    What do you mean "That's what you read in it"? The plain text does say that God created in six days, and the underlying geometry is sixfold. What statement of mine are you challenging?


    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    what about the number 216 hidden in Genesis 1:1?

    what about "nes", gematria 110 = 73 +37 ?
    Have you read my article on the Number 666? If that doesn't answer all your questions, please ask me a specific question and I will answer.

    As for 110 = 37 x 73 that fits perfectly with the whole structure.

    As far as I know, I have NEVER based any doctrine on gematria. Not one! I use gematria to illustrate the doctrines that are derived from a careful exegesis of the text of the Bible.


    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    This reveals the glorious truth that the Bible was carefully designed by the Ultimate Artist in Word, Number, and Geometry - the Creator Himself!
    what exactly does reveal this truth?
    The full integration of the alphanumeric and geometric structure of Genesis 1:1-5 with John 1:1-5 with the message of the plain text of Scripture. It is that supernatural unity that proves divine design.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Gematria is degraded into an occult "science" when people abuse it to forge their own idiosyncratic doctrines from their fantasies.
    what is wrong about fantasy?
    "Fantasy" is not the only word in that sentence I wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Please don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that Jewish tradition is all wrong. But I am saying that we need to test it in the light of Scripture, and we need to explicitly reject anything that does not pass that test, because otherwise it will be a source of error.
    what exactly is the light of scripture?
    Ask Pilate (John 18:38)

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    and where you can buy it?
    Its not for sale:

    Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

    Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Matthew 16:6 6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
    that's nice.
    I'm sorry, Jesus isn't always "nice."

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Why do you treat rabbinic tradition as if it were authoritative? You seem to be quoting it as if you were quoting Scripture. But when you read it, do you not see that it is a mixed bag, ranging over everything from profound biblical insights to absurd and occultic fantasies? That's how it looks to me, anyway.
    you need a teacher.
    I have a teacher:

    John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

    I don't want a human teacher who says things that are demonstrably false.

    =============

    Now its off to try out my new bike! Woohoo!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post



    What doctrine are we supposedly building from Rev 21:15? Why did you quote that? I don't get your point.
    the letters are the building-blocks of creation.

    "in the beginning was the word".

    word = structure of letters.




    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    What do you mean "That's what you read in it"? The plain text does say that God created in six days, and the underlying geometry is sixfold. What statement of mine are you challenging?
    exactly this statement : "The plain text does say that God created in six days, and the underlying geometry is sixfold"



    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Have you read my article on the Number 666? If that doesn't answer all your questions, please ask me a specific question and I will answer.
    yes once, but forgot.
    I'll read again.

    216 gematria of "davir", name of the holy of holies.
    216 forming perfect cube 6x6x6.


    i thought that fantastic;

    how do you relate it to "the sixth day"?

    only once a year the high-priest did enter the holy of holies, viz. on Yom Kippur.

    Luke 1 with the announcement of the birth of John the Baptist seems to be about Yom Kippur.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    As for 110 = 37 x 73 that fits perfectly with the whole structure.
    "nes" = miracle, sign, flag, banner, pole.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    As far as I know, I have NEVER based any doctrine on gematria. Not one! I use gematria to illustrate the doctrines that are derived from a careful exegesis of the text of the Bible.
    to illustrate? so it's meaningless, this "2701", just frill?

    now i must stop

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    What do you mean "That's what you read in it"? The plain text does say that God created in six days, and the underlying geometry is sixfold. What statement of mine are you challenging?
    exactly this statement : "The plain text does say that God created in six days, and the underlying geometry is sixfold"
    Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    If you can challenge the idea that the plain text of the Bible teaches that God created in six days, then I have no idea how we could possibly have a meaningful conversation about anything at all. If you want this conversation to continue, you will have to explain your ideas with something more than apparently meaningless one-liners. As it is, it seems like you don't care if anyone understands you posts.





  4. #24
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    continue

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post

    "Fantasy" is not the only word in that sentence I wrote.
    no you wrote
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Gematria is degraded into an occult "science" when people abuse it to forge their own idiosyncratic doctrines from their fantasies.
    something you say you do yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I use gematria to illustrate the doctrines that are derived from a careful exegesis of the text of the Bible.
    so you seem to be the one to abuse it.



    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Ask Pilate (John 18:38)
    Pilate asking "what is truth"?

    but you were talking about testing in the light of scripture.

    like in a trial?

    does it fit to RAM's doctrines or not?




    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I don't want a human teacher who says things that are demonstrably false.
    but what about one who says things that are demonstrably right?



    =============

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Now its off to try out my new bike! Woohoo!
    wow

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I use gematria to illustrate the doctrines that are derived from a careful exegesis of the text of the Bible.
    no you go the other way round,
    trying to force the bible into a wheel with 22 spokes according to the 22 letters of Hebrew alphabet.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Gematria is degraded into an occult "science" when people abuse it to forge their own idiosyncratic doctrines from their fantasies.
    which is exactly what you do.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    If you can challenge the idea that the plain text of the Bible teaches that God created in six days, then I have no idea how we could possibly have a meaningful conversation about anything at all. If you want this conversation to continue, you will have to explain your ideas with something more than apparently meaningless one-liners. As it is, it seems like you don't care if anyone understands you posts.


    [/SIZE]

    (i missed this post)

    no i didn't challenge the idea that the plain text teaches that God created the heaven and the earth in six days,

    but i challenge the idea that the gematria of Genesis 1:1 is there to illustrate (just) this.

    Man, you got a very big thing with gematria 2701.

    it means revolution, that's what i thought.

    we must work it out in an internet-laboratory.

    but for you it is just to illustrate what was already stated in the plain text?

    Exodus 20:11,
    For [in] six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day. Therefore, the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Gematria is degraded into an occult "science" when people abuse it to forge their own idiosyncratic doctrines from their fantasies.
    something you say you do yourself.
    Error number 1. That is an unsubstantiated accusation. You have never presented any evidence that I have done anything like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    no you go the other way round,
    trying to force the bible into a wheel with 22 spokes according to the 22 letters of Hebrew alphabet.
    Error number 2: Another unsubstantiated accusation. You have never presented any evidence that I "forced" anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I use gematria to illustrate the doctrines that are derived from a careful exegesis of the text of the Bible.
    so you seem to be the one to abuse it.
    Error number 3. Yet another unsubstantiated accusation. You have never presented any evidence that I "abuse gematria". And worse, you are talking like a five-year old child. You took my legitimate complaint against real errors in the Jewish tradition, which I supported with facts and examples, and you threw it back in my face without any facts or examples to back up your claim. You also ignored the evidence I presented.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    no i didn't challenge the idea that the plain text teaches that God created the heaven and the earth in six days,
    Error number 4. You have directly contradicted your own statement made in this thread! I quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    What do you mean "That's what you read in it"? The plain text does say that God created in six days, and the underlying geometry is sixfold. What statement of mine are you challenging?
    exactly this statement : "The plain text does say that God created in six days, and the underlying geometry is sixfold"
    Of course, you implicitly acknowledge your error when you changed your "challenge," but then that led to yet another error:

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius
    i challenge the idea that the gematria of Genesis 1:1 is there to illustrate (just) this.
    Error number 5. I never said that the purpose of gematria was "just" for illustration. True, I said "I use gematria to illustrate the doctrines that are derived from a careful exegesis of the text of the Bible" but I never said anything about that being the only purpose of gematria. That would be foolish, since I assert, (as you very well know), that God designed the Gematria to display His infinite Wisdom, so there is infinitely more to it than "merely" illustrating the doctrines derived from the plain text. The Bible reveals the Mind of God, and its alphanumeric structure is an essential aspect of that revelation. But that does not mean that we can abuse gematria by making up what ever unprincipled fantasies we like. For example, you follow the doctrine that Satan does not exist on one day of the year "because" HaShatan = 364 is one less than 365. Great! Using that principle, we can conclude that the Messiah doesn't exist for two days each year, because HaMeshiach = 363! And lets not stop there! Your method of gematria proves that God doesn't exist for 364 days of the year, because God is One!

    Listen sylivius,

    I delight in vigorous, sharp, and intelligent challenges to my work. Anyone is welcome to present arguments against my assertions in this forum. But that's not what you are doing. You apparently got your nose bent out of shape because I found (and substantiated) errors in Rashi. Then you chose to ignore the evidence I presented in favor of attacking me and the integrity of my work with rude, childish, and unsubstantiated accusations. Have you forgotten that you are in another man's house? Where are you manners?

    Please clean up your act.

    Thanks.

    And with that, let us return to a true state of peace.

    Shalom!



    Richard

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Error number 1. That is an unsubstantiated accusation. You have never presented any evidence that I have done anything like that.


    Error number 2: Another unsubstantiated accusation. You have never presented any evidence that I "forced" anything.

    Error number 3. Yet another unsubstantiated accusation. You have never presented any evidence that I "abuse gematria".
    it is on page 16 of your book.

    The primary thing to understand about the Bible Wheel is the simplicity of its origin. It emerges when we do nothing but take the list of the Sixty-Six Books and roll it up like a scroll on a spindle Wheel of Twenty-Two Spokes, corresponding to the Twenty-Two Letters of the Hebrew Alphabet. That is all there is to it. Everything else in this study follows from that single and surprisingly simple act.



    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Error number 4. You have directly contradicted your own statement made in this thread! I quote:

    exactly this statement : "The plain text does say that God created in six days, and the underlying geometry is sixfold"

    Of course, you implicitly acknowledge your error when you changed your "challenge," but then that led to yet another error:
    "The plain text does say that God created in six days, and the underlying geometry is sixfold" -- these were your words.

    I didn't challenge the first part of it.
    but your contention that "the underlying geometry is sixfold."



    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Error number 5. I never said that the purpose of gematria was "just" for illustration. True, I said "I use gematria to illustrate the doctrines that are derived from a careful exegesis of the text of the Bible" but I never said anything about that being the only purpose of gematria. That would be foolish, since I assert, (as you very well know), that God designed the Gematria to display His infinite Wisdom, so there is infinitely more to it than "merely" illustrating the doctrines derived from the plain text. The Bible reveals the Mind of God, and its alphanumeric structure is an essential aspect of that revelation. But that does not mean that we can abuse gematria by making up what ever unprincipled fantasies we like. For example, you follow the doctrine that Satan does not exist on one day of the year "because" HaShatan = 364 is one less than 365. Great! Using that principle, we can conclude that the Messiah doesn't exist for two days each year, because HaMeshiach = 363! And lets not stop there! Your method of gematria proves that God doesn't exist for 364 days of the year, because God is One!
    "God designed the Gematria to display His infinite Wisdom", with this you show your esential lack of understanding.

    The letters , the alphabet, are Divine, from God.
    In essence the letters are numbers, not quantities, but qualities.
    Last edited by sylvius; 06-14-2007 at 09:51 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Error number 1. That is an unsubstantiated accusation. You have never presented any evidence that I have done anything like that.

    Error number 2: Another unsubstantiated accusation. You have never presented any evidence that I "forced" anything.

    Error number 3. Yet another unsubstantiated accusation. You have never presented any evidence that I "abuse gematria".
    it is on page 16 of your book.
    The primary thing to understand about the Bible Wheel is teh simplicity of its origin. It emerges when we do nothing but take the list of the Sixty-Six Books and roll it up liek a scroll on a spindle Wheel of Twenty-Two Spokes, corresponding to the Twenty-Two Lwtters of the Hebrew Alphabet. That is all there is to it. Everything else in this study follows from that single and surprisingly simple act.
    Error number 6: You did not define what "it" means in your sentence "it is on page 16 of your book." You did not even attempt to explain your point. Therefore, I have no way to know how to answer you without trying to "guess" what you meant. But in the past, you have demonstrated that you don't even know what you mean, so it would be an exercise in futility for me to try to do it for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    "The plain text does say that God created in six days, and the underlying geometry is sixfold" -- these were your words.

    I didn't challenge the first part of it.
    Error number 7: Yes you did. You quoted both parts of the sentence. You said nothing about challenging only the first or the second part. If you meant that you contested just a part of it, then it was your responsibility to say so. You did not bother to clarify what you meant. You don't seem to know that you are talking gibberish. And this your problem. You don't care enough about other people to bother writing more than half a sentence. You are wasting our time.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    but your contention that "the underlying geometry is sixfold."
    Error number 8: First you challenged the whole statement. Then you denied your own words and said "i challenge the idea that the gematria of Genesis 1:1 is there to illustrate (just) this." Now you change your words again and say you challenged only the idea that "the underlying geometry is sixfold" which is 1) false, since that's not what you initially challenged, and 2) manifestly absurd because the underlying geometry is demonstrably sixfold, and you have NEVER given any evidence to the contrary.

  10. #30
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    Going nowhere

    Guys!

    I've been following this thread for a while now because I'm interested in Vernon's work. This thread is going nowhere, and no one's learning anything from it.

    Sylvius, I don't understand what you're trying to say at all, mate. English might not be your first language, in which case I commiserate with you. No disrespect intended, but your methodology with numbers is way out there, buddy. I can see you've been really getting worked up. Take it from a third party, you're just not making any sense with your retorts. Lay it to rest and let's get some positive energy going.

    Richard, I can see you're trying really hard not to bring out the feist. Maybe you also need to hear that this is going nowhere and no one's getting anything of value from it. The best thing for this thread is to shut it off before it descends into out and out name-calling.

    Stephen

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