Man of Lawlessness?

[Charisma]

Hi Richard, Timmy and Rick, and others,

I need to pick up Steve's post which I didn't notice yesterday.

Originally posted by Ps 27:1
I never said or implied that keeping the law was separate from grace through faith
Originally posted by Charisma
I believe this statement is at variance with the teaching of the New Testament.Originally posted by Ps 27:1
Sorry for my lack of clarity. What I was trying to say is that it is only grace through faith that enables us to keep God's law. See Romans 8 and i John.

Okay. This is fundamental to the purpose and on-going operation of the New Covenant between God and those who have been joined to it through faith.

But so why do you make such a big 'law' thing of it, when Hebrews 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [Hosea 2:23] 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more is such a central promise of the New Covenant? 2 Corinthians 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

It sounds as if you are talking about the 'law' that Paul and the other apostles are comparing with 'grace through faith', rather than exalting the efficacy of the blood of Jesus Christ to make us fit to live and walk in the Spirit, now given to the Spirit instead of (as formerly) to the flesh. It sounds as if you saying that 'keeping law' is what saves us; which Jesus put in completely fresh terminology: Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. And this has to be kept in the context of James (which you asked me about) when he said: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works'. James 2:18 And Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. And, bear in mind, James is speaking after Pentecost, so that within his statement we ought to expect the gifts of the Spirit to be in operation. Which is what makes Jesus' words in Matt 7 so terrifying. He is saying that some people who've cast out demons and prophesied are not His. In other words, the proof of 'knowing' the Lord, is not to be judged by the outward activity observed - even by the one who is using the name of Jesus to effect such demonstrations of seeming godliness.



Thinking about this discussion from a different angle, it may be that the emphasis you and Timmy like to make on 'law' and 'commandments', is an overweighted response to the misuse of the term 'grace' (ie taking it out of the meaning Paul gives it at its most practical, in Ephesians 3:7 '...according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. ) in phrases such as 'doctrines of grace', and, 'grace alone'.

It may also be that my doctrinal culture is particularly aware of the distinctions between the Covenants, having been taught them from a non-commandment perspective, with the emphasis firmly on sin, and what it cost God to get victory for us.

Also, I fully acknowledge God is using the covenants to reveal His heart to man in a progressive way, His will having been established in His own mind, before the foundation of the world. In this respect, as Paul said, 'but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1 Corinthians 13, for while were are grappling with sins, we are still children - albeit doing our best to grow up. John chimes in from a different (valid) perspective still: 1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. 13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. 14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

In the light of passages such as the following from Galatians 3, it might be less confusing (for people like me) if you restricted using the word 'law', to the contexts given it in the New Testament, unless you are willing to spend a little more time making the contrast clearer between the law which Israel could not keep and the law which believers can keep, (That's just a suggestion.) for there are many other (slightly wordier) ways to communicate the steadfastness of God's word, and how He will have what He has decreed (according to '... the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself', Ephesians 1:9)

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Do you see what I mean? When you wrote: 'I never said or implied that keeping the law was separate from grace through faith', it is impossible to imagine you and Paul are on the same page, because,
according to him, what is 'keeping the law' if it's not 'works'?

And if 'keeping the law' is not works, then you need (I believe) to show the difference between what Paul is saying, and what you are saying; and to adopt New Covenant language to bring your claims into line with scripture (more obviously). In so doing you will draw down the power of God on your testimony in the ears of those who hear/read it. (That's my return lecture, btw. )

[heb13-13]

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

So, do you think the Son is no longer speaking to us and the Holy Spirit is no longer being poured out upon all flesh?

Ciao,
Rick

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

So, do you think the Son is no longer speaking to us and the Holy Spirit is no longer being poured out upon all flesh?

Ciao,
Rick

Those questions are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of language. The fact that God spoke through the Son in the first century (which is what Hebrews 1:2 says) does not imply anything about whether God would or would not speak through the Son at any other time. Indeed, the Bible says that God spoke through Christ in the OT, so we know that Hebrews 1:2 was not saying that God speaking through the Son was limited to the "last days." Likewise, the fact that God did a unique act of pouring out the Spirit at Pentecost (which was predicted by Joel) does not imply that the Spirit would not be poured out after that prophecy was fulfilled.

Your question seems to imply that you think the "last days" have been going on for 2000 years. I find that to be impossible without destroying the meaning of "last days." It seems obvious to me that the Apostles understood that they were at the cusp of two ages. The Old Covenant Age and the New Covenant Age, the Messianic Age.

Chewbacca,

Richard

[Ps 27:1]

But so why do you make such a big 'law' thing of it, ...
It sounds as if you are talking about the 'law' that Paul and the other apostles are comparing with 'grace through faith', rather than exalting the efficacy of the blood of Jesus Christ to make us fit to live and walk in the Spirit,
....... In other words, the proof of 'knowing' the Lord, is not to be judged by the outward activity observed - even by the one who is using the name of Jesus to effect such demonstrations of seeming godliness.

Hi Charisma:

Before I get into my response, I strongly encourage you to peruse one or both of these links:

http://omega77.tripod.com/lawandreformers.htm

http://www.champs-of-truth.com/lesso...stant Position

If not, at least read these quotes:

John Wesley said, in his Sermons:

In answer to the claim that at the death of Christ the precepts of the Decalogue had been abolished with the ceremonial law, he replied:

"The moral law, contained in the Ten Commandments and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away. It was not the design of His coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken, which 'stands fast as the faithful witness in heaven.' . . . This was from the beginning of the world, being 'written not on tables of stone,' but on the hearts of all the children of men, when they came out of the hands of the Creator. And however the letters once wrote by the finger of God are now in a great measure defaced by sin, yet can they not wholly be blotted out, while we have any consciousness of good and evil. Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God, and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other."'I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.' . . . Without question, His meaning in this place is (consistently with all that goes before and follows after),--I am come to establish it in its fullness, in spite of all the glosses of men: I am come to place in a full and clear view whatsoever was dark or obscure therein: I am come to declare the true and full import of every part of it; to show the length and breadth, the entire extent, of every commandment contained therein, and the height and depth, the inconceivable purity and spirituality of it in all its branches."--Wesley, sermon 25

D.L. Moody, in his book Weighed and Wanting, page 11, says:

"Now men may cavil as much as they like about other parts of the Bible, but I never met an honest man that found fault with the Ten Commandments." He continues, on page 47:

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. how can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?"

C.H. Spurgeon, in his Sermons, 2nd series, page 280, writes: "The law of God is a divine law, holy, heavenly, perfect. Those who find fault with the law, or in the least degree depreciate it, do not understand its design, and have no right idea of the law itself. Paul says, 'The law is holy, but I am carnal; sold under sin.' In all we ever say concerning justification by faith, we never intend to lower the opinion which our hearers have of the law, for the law is one of the most sublime of God's works. There is not a commandment too many; there is not one too few; but it is so incomparable, that its perfection is a proof of its divinity. No human lawgiver could have given forth such a law as that which we find in the decalogue. It is a perfect law."

If you would read through all the quotes on the 2 links, you would see that historic protestant thought (the majority) is in agreement with what Ive been saying with the only exception being that they thought Sunday was the sabbath. You keep putting thoughts and words into my mouth. Maybe I'm just a lousy communicator. I thought the mirror analogy made it clear. I said the mirror(law) is powerless to clean up my mess (sin) and soap and water (blood of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit) is needed to get clean (righteous IJohn 1:9) Help me out here. Why is that so hard to understand?

This is my honest opinion: In their efforts to diminish the requirments of the 4th commandment, modern day scholars have spun a sticky web of sophistry. The problem is not the law, per se, it is the sabbath. Can you in all honesty say that any/all of the other 9 are a yoke of bondage?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Do you see what I mean? When you wrote: 'I never said or implied that keeping the law was separate from grace through faith', it is impossible to imagine you and Paul are on the same page, because,
according to him, what is 'keeping the law' if it's not 'works'?

And if 'keeping the law' is not works, then you need (I believe) to show the difference between what Paul is saying, and what you are saying; and to adopt New Covenant language to bring your claims into line with scripture (more obviously). In so doing you will draw down the power of God on your testimony in the ears of those who hear/read it. (That's my return lecture, btw. )

How about I let John say it:

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Keeping God's commandments is not "works" to be saved or justified, it is simply love for God for what he has done on the cross.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

One other thing. It has been said on this thread that Jesus is our sabbath. I agree, just as I believe he is our truth. Now just because Jesus is our truth, that doesn't mean I'm released from obeying the 9th commandment. So why the desire or need to be released from the 4th? The opposite should be true. We should be delighted to keep it as is said over and over in the Psalms.

Please understand that I am not judging you nor do I have any contempt for you. I am only trying to help restore the sabbath to its rightful place in God's perfect law.

Blessings,
Steve

[heb13-13]

Yes; thanks for the clarifying passage.


Yes; Most translations say 'the lawless one'.. for "that Wicked".

The futurists apply this to the so called 'anti-christ'. But if we hold that the Creators judgments, laws of faith, freedoms and principles of blessing were fully enacted and established in the first century and are in favor of life, then 'the lawless ones' were/are those who believe not the truth nor follow the ordinances of the Creator on these matters. The had pleasure in their disreguard of Christ.

They were "revealed" at that time.

"The man of sin/lawless" is not a single 'man' but a system of disbelief and contempt for Jesus, Life, or the Creator.

I would agree with you that it is a "system of unbelief" (concerning Christ). To go further, who was it that gave Jesus Christ the most difficult time? Who was it that persecuted the Church the most down through the centuries?

It is the religious system (of unbelief) concerning the indwelling Christ. It's not a single man, it is men...many men.

Jesus said that He "hated the deeds of the Nicolaitans", and He said it twice. Two greek words are joined together, "nike" meaning victory and "laos" meaning people. The Nicolaitans conquered the people by by setting themselves up as the "leaders" and controlling them through their teachings. This is indicative of religion. Religion attempts to control people through organization and ecclesiology. Religion has always been afraid of real Christians because they cannot be controlled. Christians see themselves operating in the freedom and grace of God and believe they are priests unto their God and are led by their Shepherd, Jesus Christ. They cannot be controlled and religion (the men of lawlessness) has always persecuted them. Religion will use the world if they must to eradicate those that pose a threat to their system of lawlessness. We will be getting more into this in the Revelation Series that I just posted. Especially when studying the Letters to the Churches and in particular the Ephesian Church which to their credit rejected the religion of the Nicolaitans.

In essence, I agree with you EndtimesDeut32 that it is a system of unbelief, which "shuts up heaven" for men by their lies concerning Christ. Religion does not like the fact that "true Christians" don't need anything more than Jesus Christ. In essence, we have no need of them being our Mediator.

All the best,
Rick

[Charisma]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your fullsome reply.

The way I look at the fulfilling of the law in me, is through walking in the Spirit. If that was not at variance with the ten commandments for the early Church, it is not at variance today. My ability to keep the laws of which you speak, come from the power of God through the cross, which is applied in me by the Crucified one, and the help of the Holy Spirit actively to mortify the sinful impulses of the flesh

It seems to me that what you are looking for from Christians is an outward compliance with a variation on the seventh day sabbaths which were given to Israel in the wilderness. So, they never applied to Gentiles. Then, when Gentiles began to be admitted directly into the Church of Jesus Christ through circumcision of the heart, though never having been physically circumcised outwardly, there was a necessary discussion about what GOD required of these outwardly uncircumcised Christians who had come to trust in the living Saviour Jesus Christ who is now seated at the right hand of God.

The Church (in particular Paul) is very clear about what it is that had been promised: eternal life - resurrection from the dead. Acts 26: 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which [promise] our twelve tribes, instantly serving [God] day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? It is with this hope in mind, that the 'rest of faith' is commended in the epistle to Hebrews.

15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. There is a big discussion about holiness (set apart-ness) to be had, here, in respect to 'sanctified by faith that is in me'.

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. 22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. 30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 [Which] when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. One can see how sabbath-keeping might have caused tension in the early Church, but Paul is always looking beyond the natural, to Christ who died for the other guy (too).

There is also Romans 14:5 to the end, where Paul is at pains to make us aware of one another's consciences as well the liberty which he is declaring (in several places in the New Testament). I did 'get' your mirror analogy, and I'm not disputing there are times when we have to 'do' things to smarten up our acts, but are these not a response to the work which has already taken place in our hearts while we were looking into the open face of Jesus Christ?

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

John puts it this way: 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We don't have to wait for a certain day of the week to go to another place in order to meet with God. Even if we stay at home to meet with God, we don't have to wait for a certain day. He is always accessible.

I know those last two sentences are slightly 'devil's advocate', but wasn't the whole point of 'sabbath', to be reminded that we cannot work for our salvation? It is the gift of God!

Therefore, having exercised the gift of God called faith, to receive the gift of God His Son Jesus Christ, who makes His abiding presence in us through the gift of God the eternal Spirit, thus also bringing us into fellowship (rest) with the Father of spirits, through whose acceptance of the blood of the eternal sacrifice we are accepted into His awesome presence forever - adopted as sons - isn't a bit of jumping for joy called for?


I note you say you are not judging me. That's great! I would question whether it is God who has sent you on a mission to 'help restore the sabbath to its rightful place in God's perfect law', since the entire gathering of apostles concluded differently. I question whether the lack of sabbath observance by Christians today is what is making the Church weak? One might be better to preach against adultery and fornication, or covetousness, or sloth or theft, because this is where the world is watching, and they are not one whit deceived by a sabbatarian who isn't keeping the other commandments.

May you be richly blessed in the exercise of your conscience in this matter, and may you find grace to yield, if God ever calls upon you to interrupt normal sabbath-keeping to oblige Him with some other service.

[David M]

If the Wicked is regarded as a corporal conditional principle, then Satan must likewise be regarded as standing for anything which is in opposition. Satan is not a fallen Holy Angel of God.

1 Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Paul also refers to Satan in 1 Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

Satan is not the fallen Angel of God as wrongly taught. Satan is a general term for something that was preventing or hindering Paul. It could have been a matter concerning a single person or a group of people or authority. Jesus accused Peter of being Satan when Peter had a different course of action in mind for his Lord and was contrary to God's Will.

1 Th 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone; 2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God,

The circumstances that were preventing Paul from leaving Athens did not have to delay the whole party and so they sent Timotheus ahead.

In the same way that Paul refers to the Wicked and Satan he also refers to the tempter.

1 Th 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you,

Following on then with the suggestion at the start of this thread that the Wicked is not to be thought of as a single person, likewise the tempter and Satan should not be thought any different. Satan and the tempter are not fallen Holy Angels of God.

Evil is only present on this earth amongst men and women, not in Heaven, God’s dwelling place, where His Holy Angels do His Will.

[Ps 27:1]

Greetings Charisma,

I had to postpone my response to you so I could cool off, so to speak. The Holy Spirit kept reminding me of this verse:

James 1:26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.
(NIV)

So here I am, ready to bite my tongue.

I am beginning to think that you and I are on different wavelengths. Are you reading my posts carefully? Did you read either of those links? I just grabbed what I could find off of google, but I have been aware of those quotes for years. BTW, I am not a diehard SDA. In fact, the last several sabbaths I went to a service was a Messianic Jewish.

I want to address your last statement first.

May you be richly blessed in the exercise of your conscience in this matter, and may you find grace to yield, if God ever calls upon you to interrupt normal sabbath-keeping to oblige Him with some other service.

Thanks for the blessing, but to be honest (bites tongue), I was taken aback by the 2nd half. Do you equate me with the Pharisees of Jesus' day? I have "broken" many a sabbath day to help someone in need. That includes buying food and gas on "the sabbath". Some "normal" sabbath activities my family have engaged in: Potluck after church, visiting nursing homes and singing and talking with the elderly, visiting with friends from the church, taking hikes, just sitting around talking about spiritual things, taking a nap, etc.

I know those last two sentences are slightly 'devil's advocate', but wasn't the whole point of 'sabbath', to be reminded that we cannot work for our salvation? It is the gift of God!

What I said in my last post was:

Keeping God's commandments is not "works" to be saved or justified, it is simply love for God for what he has done on the cross.

Exactly. The sabbath is a weekly reminder and a witness that it is God who saves and provides. We don't have to work 7 days a week. We have a weekly "holiday" sanctioned by God. Where did I ever even hint that we keep the sabbath to be saved?

We don't have to wait for a certain day of the week to go to another place in order to meet with God. Even if we stay at home to meet with God, we don't have to wait for a certain day. He is always accessible.

Again, I am a bit stunned by this comment. I think you have misconceptions about me and the whole purpose of the sabbath.

I note you say you are not judging me. That's great! I would question whether it is God who has sent you on a mission to 'help restore the sabbath to its rightful place in God's perfect law', since the entire gathering of apostles concluded differently.

Like I said earlier, they were already keeping the sabbath. It would be senseless for them to say, "We want you to keep the sabbath". That passage is not about diminishing the 10 commandments. If it were, then it would contradict what Jesus, James, John, and even Paul himself said about the commandments. Are you saying that the 10 commandments are a burden?

I question whether the lack of sabbath observance by Christians today is what is making the Church weak? One might be better to preach against adultery and fornication, or covetousness, or sloth or theft, because this is where the world is watching, and they are not one whit deceived by a sabbatarian who isn't keeping the other commandments.

This comment seems to suggest that the 4th is not nearly as important as the other commandments. If you really believe that, then I can only conclude that you haven't read or understood a lot of the OT. The sabbath was extremely important to God. He also called it His sabbath and that it was a sign of his sanctifying power. The sad irony in all of this, is while you are concerned about the other 9, which are equally important, the undermining of the 4th inevitably leads to the undermining of God's Law in general which cultivates the ground for the man of lawlessness.

I think that you think I'm stuck in some kind of legalistic belief system and that the cross has little significance in my life and that is so far from the truth. If you don't think that, then forgive me, but that is the vibe I'm picking up from your comments. I was not raised SDA, although my parents did treat Sunday a little like the sabbath. My parents were missionaries with beliefs close to Baptist theology. Think Moody Bible Institute. I even went there myself for 1 semester. My mother at 86 still thinks we should keep 1 day, it just doesn't matter which one. I disagree, but I still love and respect her and no longer try to change her mind. This forum is different. We come here to sharpen our minds and be challenged.

Be blessed,
Steve

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

In Jesus mention of the abomination that causes desolation.... wouldn't there be an association in the hearers minds to Antiochus Ephiphenes?....Thus confirming an non jewish desocration of the alter?....

[Charisma]

Hi Steve,

First of all, I want to say I'm sorry you needed to cool off after reading my post. I can honestly say I understand that need for regular physical rest (if possible), but not the NEED for calling a day 'the sabbath', in the way you're expressing it - as a substitute for 'the 4th commandment'. To me, the 4th commandment is far more challenging spiritually, and, far more attainable.

Secondly, to say that we are not on the same 'wavelength' may make some sense in terms of the language each of us is using, but I'm not sure we're as far away in spiritual understanding as you may think. However, neither of us is writing in the other person's language and so we will both have to work on finding out what is being lost in translation.

It is for this reason that I like to use the NT to justify New Covenant practice, because surely the first apostles understood what had been changed by Pentecost. (I'm using Pentecost as shorthand for the whole ministry of Jesus including his life, works, death, resurrection, ascension and enthronement, Pentecost being the experiential proof of His victory on our behalf .)

Therefore, when in your last post you mentioned some of the things you 'do' on what you call 'the Sabbath', making clear you are not 'keeping' the Sabbath of the Mosaic law, to me, this is confusing. On what basis, then, is your practice a biblically supportable 'keeping' of the 4th commandment (the failure to keep which was punishable by stoning to death)? This is what I don't get.

In an effort to home in on the kernel of the matter, we have to look quickly at how the NT presents 'the law' to Christians, with respect to the other 9 commandments. Part of my difficulty with your emphasis on the 10, is that we can all agree that the keeping of them in each case represents a victory over personal sin. (Can we agree that?) I don't mean that everyone has broken all 10, but, potentially, all 10 are breakable; the rich young man is an example of just one sinner's struggle with an outworking of the sin - the death. And he knew it.

Then there is the added dimension in the NT that Jesus made many more stipulations for His followers than are written in the Mosaic law, and specifically changed what was to be practised as 'the law' on certain points (eg love your enemies), which 'law(s)', now, not being dependent on an external priesthood (for the nation), but the internalised and externalised priestly function of the individual believer, (in association with our great High Priest and Advocate, Jesus Christ), have to be viewed in the light of the Lord's great invitation in Matthew 28:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]. 28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light. 1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

As sabbaths were to be a rest from labour, this 'message' was greatly emphasised in the jubilee years, in which God set things up so that the people had to exercise faith with regard to daily bread. Not only was Deu 8:3 thus re-enforced, but it crops up in the temptations Jesus faced, and, He placed the validity of asking for daily bread in the prayer He taught the disciples. Everything is directed towards the believer trusting our Father in heaven for the most basic supplies - food and clothes - making worry, a sin (effectively).

What am I saying? Well, what I am not saying, is, don't do anything Jesus taught in the NT.

And I'm not saying: go on and commit the sins of the flesh listed at the end of Galatians 5; or those in Romans 1, or those in 1 Corinthians 6, or those in 1 Timothy 6, or those in 2 Timothy 3, or those in Jude, or those in 1 John 2, or those in 2 Peter 3, (and the rest not listed), because Jesus said: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

And Peter said: He gives His Holy Spirit to those who obey Him, Acts 5:32,

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Galatans 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh...

Romans 7:14 . For we know that the law is spiritual...

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

And surely, we are back to Deuteronomy 8:3b that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven...

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious. 4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 11 Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

For the first time, under the New Covenant there is the possibility of 'a conscience void of offence,' and Jesus' emphasis on our relationships with one another being a sign we have properly understood what God has done for us in the remission of sins which we may obtain through repentance and faith in His finished work. To me, the entering into the rest of His finished work, and living in the Spirit 24/7 is the sabbath He obtained for us - whether we can organise a few hours all in the same place each week to think about it, or not. (I realise there is a greater rest, in the resurrection, but, we have a foretaste, now.) And, I think you do understand this.



I hope this post helps you catch my perspective, even if you will have to abandon me to the mercies of Colossians 2:16, and
Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Clearly, this discussion started waaaay back!