Man of Lawlessness?

[Charisma]

Ho, David and Bob,

I'm laughing. I seem to be just missing the key posts every thread I go to. Sorry for all the duplications. Maybe I should go to sleep, soon!

[Bob May]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your post. I think we are close in our understanding.

This is interesting!

It's making me wonder if we are misunderstanding what Paul was getting at when he said the law caused sin to revive, and 'I died'.

Paul mentions conscience several places, and so... does this mean his comments about the law took the awareness of sin to one stage further, namely, that whereas one's conscience might prevent one from sinning, or, might make one apologise, or offer reparation (do the decent thing in whatever situation guilt had reared its head), but now under the law, an understanding of the sentence of death for all sins, is made plainer?

David, I don't think you understood Bob's post at all. Universalism is not what he meant. I don't agree with universalism, either, btw.

Hi Charisma,

Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Ro 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Ro 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Ro 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

It seems to me that Paul has to be talking about someone who has already believed and come to life. They are "without the law." He is relating his trying to understand just what we are speaking of here. Are we under Grace or under the law.

There are fine lines here in trying to work this out in our own understanding. We get an awareness of Grace and then look to our thoughts and actions knowing they are no longer held against us. But at the same time we know that both our thoughts and actions matter.
So where does the law fit in as someone who is saved by Grace.

We do not want to fall back under the law. That is the warning to the Galatians.
My take on it is that we cannot follow the law by our own efforts. And if we try to block out thoughts or words by sheer will they gain power.

For an example, I believe a lot of the problem with Catholic priests and sex is a direct consequence of using force to make themselves stop what they wish to stop. Then the problem gets worse because they are keeping their mind on a problem instead of the solution. The law that they have imposed upon themselves has grown exceeding sinful. We all do the same things in various areas of our lives to various degrees.

We are supposed to believe past the awareness of Grace. The promises that state that we are being changed by the Spirit.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

God is changing our hearts so that our desires are changing. It takes time, but once we see that it is happening we begin to get an inkling that even the laws, including the 10 commandments and the circumcision are promises and prophecies.

((Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
We are not changing ourselves. We are incapable. He is living up to the promises of the various covenants and promises.))

So, now we can look at the commandments as promises.
Thou shalt not ...is saying in the future you will not covet, lie etc.
Thou shalt ...is saying in the future you will begin to love the Lord thy God with all your heart soul strength and mind.

It does not negate the commandments, it enhances them. God is changing us as He promised he would. The words have not changed, our perspective has.

Just my take on it,
Bob

[David M]

Hi Bob

I am more in tune with your latest post. I was unclear who "everyone" was referring to in the post previous but that does not matter now.

So, now we can look at the commandments as promises.
Thou shalt not ...is saying in the future you will not covet, lie etc.
Thou shalt ...is saying in the future you will begin to love the Lord thy God with all your heart soul strength and mind.

It does not negate the commandments, it enhances them. God is changing us as He promised he would

By applying the Word of God to our lives now we should be changing our characters for the better. As Paul writes; Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Also we should work at doing this; Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Rom 12:22 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

What we are unable to achieve i.e. perfection in this life we shall be given when the following takes place

1 Cor 15.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work

Removing this nature of flesh and blood and being given the new incorruptible body we shall not be burdened with the nature whereby is disposed to sin.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I like your take on the 10 commandments. In the kingdom because the laws are written in our hearts (minds) we shall not do those things we are commanded not to do.

This is what Jesus has to accomplish when he returns.1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Once the final enemy Sin and death has been destroyed means you have a condition where no one sins. This is why we are told that Jesus will reign for 1,000 years to bring this about. No governement has ever come close to what Jesus will achieve when he returns; that is why it is necessary for Jesus to return that the world will be ruled in rigtheousness and also in power. Jesus will accomplish what no government of man has been able to do.


David

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Hey there Timmy,
Yeah, I understand that "lawlessness" has no meaning without there being a "law" to which to append lessnessness.
Richard

This threads issue is "what is lawlessness," and without ability to determine that, there will be no clearer picture of "who" (and/or "what" as EndtimesDeut32/70AD has suggested) this man of Lawlessness is.

I agree that the concept and post was vague.

In the Epistles and the major prophets, the glory of Jesus being revealed is often yet future to them at the time of their writings.

See particularly 2 Thess 1:7 and 2:3. and "revelation"

We preterists attatch Jesus revelation with his coming in power and glory in the events controlling the armies of Rome, etc to fulfill his will and purposes in protecting and displaying his approval for the way of faith in the Prince of Life. After the war against the saints; the judgment SAT and took effect as Dan 7 records IN FAVOR TO THE saints of Grace, Truth, but in judgment against the conditional, corporal way of moses. He establishes life and relationship with Him via faith in Christ as "good" and the conditionally appeasing corporal/religious law as "not the good way" [Is 65:2; Romans 10:21]

With the Revelation of himself and his "end" [i.e. foundational] purposes also came the revealing of the favor of the saints and of the kingdom of the creator who knew and kept the way of Peace.

The "MAN of sin" would have been those who failed to keep the 'man of faith' in freedom in Christ but who fell back to judaism or perhaps fell back to Roman Ceasar worship {test of Balaam].

The "law of Christ" would contain similar things as Right to Life, Liberty [and pursuit of happiness]. The Law of Christ would be those commands to not put asunder Life which God has brought together and the love and cultivation for one's self and one's neighbor's life.

The 'man of sin' would then be those who followed concepts of judaic religious or corporal political legalism [pagan rome] and enslavement but who rejected the "shame" and weakness of the cross. He would remain spiritually and politically "in the temple" and it's services long AFTER God had convincingly abandoned the temple service; thus showing himself [or declaring himself] that he is God, in rebellion against God's purposes and ways. [Heb 10 records the warning of falling back to the 'sin' of re-participation of animal sacrifices]

Rather than the 'man of sin' or lawlessness being one single person, it might be referring more to a continuation of practice in rebellion, disreguard or disbelief which would be revealed at the time of the affirmation of Jesus through those first century events. It's an ideology rather than a particular person. A corporal "MAN" rather than a singular man.

The "laws" and ordinances of the Creator to which append 'lawlessness" are those such as: the 'law of faith';[Rom 3] the 'law of recieving divine unconditional love'/adoption for oneself and reciprocating that love to others, the manifestation of the fruits of the Spirit.. AGAINST WHICH THERE IS NO LAW; the law of the indwelling Spirit; [word of faith in Rom 10]. The laws of the Creator are actually freedom of life as compared with religious or corporal legalism which is now called 'lawlessness' in contrast with the judgments and favor of the ways of the maker/lover of life and the Ordinances of the "New Heavens".

These are some concepts I'm contemplating.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Ro 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Ro 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Ro 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

It seems to me that Paul has to be talking about someone who has already believed and come to life. They are "without the law." He is relating his trying to understand just what we are speaking of here. Are we under Grace or under the law.

Just my take on it,
Bob

To add to your contemplation; I consider and contemplate that Paul is possibly referring to himself in his coming to awareness of 'conscience' as a boy..... He was "alive" and vibrant once without consciousness of the law.... but the administration of death slew him.

OR... more likely "I" is a metaphor for feelings of men in the progressive history of the Promise given to Abraham and the Patriarchs, but then slayed by the law of Moses. It's only through the fulfiller of that promise that the freedom is experienced.

[Bob May]

To add to your contemplation; I consider and contemplate that Paul is possibly referring to himself in his coming to awareness of 'conscience' as a boy..... He was "alive" and vibrant once without consciousness of the law.... but the administration of death slew him.

OR... more likely "I" is a metaphor for feelings of men in the progressive history of the Promise given to Abraham and the Patriarchs, but then slayed by the law of Moses. It's only through the fulfiller of that promise that the freedom is experienced.

Hi Deut., I also have looked at it as Paul being a child and not accountable to the law as yet. And I believe Paul is speaking about himself here. He seems to at times use himslf as an example in order to illustrate the mental gymnastics we will all have to go through. So a child would be "without the law or outside of it, yes. But being that he uses the word "Revived" when referring to sin, he is inferring that something had fallen asleep or died had come back to life. I beleive he is reffering to the danger of faling back under the law after having come to the knowledge of the truth.
Being that Paul said "I", I belive he was applying the OT metaphor to his/our Reality. It is not a "feeling" but an experience. A new experience of Reality. Once we understand/experience the Promise given to Abraham and the Patriarchs we are not to be slain by the law of Moses again. This is his warning to the Galatians. "Who hath bewitched you..." "Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?" "For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God." This is the mindset that we are to keep. There are far too many in authority in churches who's words and interpretation of scripture tends to put believers back under the law. My interpretation of these particular verses may be off but the warning that I see between the lines is valid. All the best, Bob