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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    Yes he did. Paul taught Gentiles that since they were Never under The Mosaic Law of Death that they had no obligation to be circumcised or follow any of the rituals of it. Faith in Christ was enought for Salvation for Gentiles. ....
    Paul uses the term "law" loosely, so you have to be very careful with his intent (context)

    Rom 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
    Rom 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law;
    Rom 7:23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
    Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
    Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin

    Do not confuse moral law with ceremonial law. 1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

    Peace,

    Steve, aka the "delusional"
    May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. Ps 19:14 (NIV)

  2. #112
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    [i] AFTER TIMMY RECANTED, RAM continues, "Now the answer to your question seems pretty plain and obvious to me. Paul explicitly said that Christians do not need to keep the law. The sign of the covenant of law was circumcision and the sabbath. Paul said that Christians should not seek to fulfill either of those commandments:
    "Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law...What should we say then? Should we continue in sin so that grace may multiply? Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" (i John 3.4 & Romans 6.1-2)

    The signs of the covenant was not Shabbat. Shabbat is a comemoration, a remembrance of all God has done and enabled us to do, honoring Him as the


    RAM continues, "Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage (law). 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.Supreme and Sovereign Potentate of all existence.

    Circumscission is a sign of abiding by the whole Levitical Ordinances, that is to say, the complete Law of Moshe by previously establishment of standards representing what has and is to come.

    Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    The idea of "keeping Torah" is not only impossible (since it contains many laws that cannot be fulfilled without the Temple) but also entirely contrary to the NT.

    Or so it seems to me anyway.

    All the best,

    Richard
    The perspectives above presented have been encountered before and appears to be something resulting from people learning not by example and word, but only 'supposed' rhetoric founded on human logic limiting perspective only to certain books of the Bible and not the whole counsel of God. It comes from logic untestable as a physical reality and appears to be reinterpretive representations of what various aspects of the law of Moshe actually are.

    Actuallly, what was being refered to were the Mitzvot ((10)Command(ments)) of God and not the Law of Moshe per se. Much, but not all of the Law of Moshe is relative to both a Yaweh owned and operated socio-political kingdom. Anyone who advocates and adheres to a kingdom not based on Torah is going to have trouble obeying the whole Torah. This is not saying that it is meaningless, but rather there are varying ramifications for the nation where the Priesthood (now after the Order of YHShVH of Melki-Tzedek) is not the ultimate authority.

    i am going to have to think through the verses provided for the time being and when a seemingly appropriate response is forthcoming, contingency will lead to text sent.


    As far as Collosians goes:
    Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    Understand who really is the Ultimate Judge and Lawgiver. This verse is speaking of only certan things being shadows, and if any person judges physical realites based on a shadow ignoring it's objective counterpart, they are confused before they even attempt to walk faithful to God in these things.

    (Further, context and referencing along with Mischna and Talmud need be checked w/relation to this verse and probably all the others, so it might take a bit of time (which is currently FTTB available BTW. Will attempt to get back with you on these. i don't want to put my foot where my mouth is, at least not yet. Last time this was attempted, i pulled my hip out of socket, and i wasn't even wrestling the angel of the Lord like Yakov.)

    Have a better than good one man!

    Timmy
    Last edited by Timmy; 02-16-2012 at 10:27 AM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps 27:1 View Post
    Hi Timmy!

    It's okay. I feel your exasperation. I've brought up several points concerning the "law" that nobody has answered, including our host, RAM. (ex: 1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. KJV says commandments) Not a peep!
    Hi'ya Steve

    You too 'den finally come to da' point where 'dat zaspiration uz exhausted, doan' cha' know?


    Then comes the time where only further observance of Torah, by meditation therein and obedience to what our Father--who loves us so much has provided a foolproof plan for "Your Best Life Now"--reveals to us so we can be more than we can be.

    It's now like, come along or don't.
    i can only be responsible for trusting Him and i cannot do that for you.

    i see so many stuck only on Shaul's words about righteousness of the Law which really is no righteousness as he states; but so many many many people cannot see beyond this one proof against misconsidering what the law was never intended for. They never ask the real purpose of it or look back in Torah to see that this very Law leads to: prospering in everything you do, those around you fearing your God too, and fearing your own strength resulting from it...among several other things.

    You tell others, "if ya' just read through Deuteronomy," and even if some of very few do, they often completely miss what is hidden in plain sight explaining these beneficial things spelled out in detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ps 27:1 View Post
    To those who are frustrated with Timmy and myself, a few things to ponder:

    Mat 11:16 "To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:
    Mat 11:17 "'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge and you did not mourn.'
    Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.'
    Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners."' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."
    Still, most of these responses so far, seem at least, seem to be so canned it doesn't seem it will really be that hard at all to show logical proofs, but there just wasn't the time when this thread first began (like there is now_).
    i pray to God this freetime can last longer than before.

    We need to PM each other at least and develop a strategic gameplan to rule the world...sCo_hmmthink:think of a name for this new think tank and then we can develop a board of trustees and elect a CEO after we incorporate... or at least own this little thread in this gloriously exotic acropolis...:
    ...and hopefully not over-imbibe or indulge too extremely on all these rich delights and avoid the Barfitorium altogether.
    That gluttonly is a killer.

    Wake up!!!



    Warning!!! Danger!!!
    Yeah, it's like saying, what decent father would not give his kids rules to help them keep themselves from killing themselves, helping them avoid when excentricity gets the best of curiousity or even less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ps 27:1 View Post
    Why are so many churches embracing homosexuality? They have discarded the law and now we are seeing the fruition.

    If you love God, you will keep his commandments.

    Steve
    Yeah, yur' right!!!
    Amein Bro!

    Sheerly,

    Timmy

    p.s. but i'm thinking
    Last edited by Timmy; 02-15-2012 at 04:16 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    Yes he did. Paul taught Gentiles that since they were Never under The Mosaic Law of Death that they had no obligation to be circumcised or follow any of the rituals of it. Faith in Christ was enought for Salvation for Gentiles. The Jews on the other hand, Paul Did Not tell any Jew to forsake Moses torah. The Jews were bound to it to the very End of The Age. (Christian Messiahnic) Jews from Asia told the Jerusalem Church that he (paul) was teaching Jews to forsake the Law of Moses. James knew that the (Christian Messiahnic) Jews of Asia were wrong about Paul and told Paul to show the Jerusalem Churches people that he was a (Messiahnic) Jews Jew and followed the Law of Moses + Jesus. Paul Never forsook the Law of Moses and kept every jot and tittle, but he did make sure that The Gentiles stayed away from the elements of it, because it was waxing old and ready to vanish away. the elements of the Mosaic Law were a millstone around the peoples neck, that event The Fathers could not bare to carry. Once The Mosaic Temple was destroyed and The World that it represented, it did not matter for Jew or Gentile, becasue the world of old was gone and the New Creation had arrived. The Mosaic torah was then gone forever.

    Acts
    17And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

    18And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

    19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

    20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

    21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
    22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

    23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

    24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

    25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
    HI Brother Les!


    Ok, so what is gathered from what you are saying is that you do not have to follow customs, and since there is no mention of commandments, we are free to decide whether we murder, adulterate, lie, cheat steal and grab everything in this life we can whatever way we can...you know, let's just "eat and drink" for the Acropolis Barfitorium is not far away.

    Giggling,

    Timmy
    Last edited by Timmy; 02-15-2012 at 02:34 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  5. #115
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    Jesus stated plainly, "NOTHING WILL PASS AWAY FROM THE LAW until both earth and heaven pass away," in Matthew 5.18.

    In this one fact, we can boldly realize the not one covenant has never passed away. This is because every suceeding covenant was built upon the previous covenant shadowing into reality. Following the paper trail, STS, this leads back to the garden of Eden.

    Have heaven or earth passed away?
    How does that square with so many who will take certain specific scriptures out of context, introduce a variated belief system that skirts the issue that Yeshua plainly repeats what Moshe wrote, "HUMANS SHALL not LIVE only by bread, but THROUGH EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM GOD's MOUTH.

    The Old Covenant has never passed away.

    There are far too many scriptures which contradict what many on this thread claims to be truth... and we can start with Galatians 3: Jesus ratified (not abolished) the Old Covenant. This is the very foundational basis for the whole plot of the Bible. Jesus never annulled or abolished any covenant.

    To say that any particular covenant is done away with is a round about way of saying that it never was a covenant in the first place.

    Because it was God representing both man and God in the person of Yeshua swearing covenant oath with God, this full filling of everything prior was not merely incorporated through fallen Adam's seed. Now more potent than ever NOTHING EVER CHANGED.

    Because Jesus did not abolish, but instead ratified the Old Covenant, actually everything was filled to the full, full-filled.

    If God were a man that lies, the Old Covenant could be abolished yet this is not what happened at all. The Old Covenant was made reality. Yet, God is not a man that He should lie.

    God never changes and He honors His unchanging word above His very name. . .and His Word is forever settled, even as Hebrews 13.8 clearly reveals, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

    Youz guys can keep on picking apart fine points ignoring context toward the whole of scripture, but doesn't this mislead others as well to miss the main point.

    What benefit to anyone is there in this?

    Jesus leading up to obeying God in the spirit of the Law as in it's letter began and in conclusion clarified, "For this reason, whoever will break one of the tiniest commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven... Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that say to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord... ...then will I proclaim to them,'I never knew you: leave my presence you Law breakers.' "

    Think seriously about what you are claiming to be truth to other readers, and ignoring such passages as:

    "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous..." 1 Jn. 5:2-3


    Compared to what is attempted to be made true without infallible proof, still, scripture does not contradict itself.

    Human reasonings and rationalizations, on the other hand, tend to contradict both the thinker, and always the scripture.


    Some of this threads conclusions leave at least three possibilities:

    1.) False statements so far on this thread form a faulty foundation on which oneiric conclusions pile higher.

    2.) Paul is contradicting Jesus, the Law, and the prophets...

    3.) Jesus is confused or lying about what He says...

    Who has the most authority?

    1.) Us

    2.) Paul

    3.) Jesus


    Who agreed with His/our Father about this plan and knows all the fine nitty gritty details about it?

    1.) Us

    2.) Paul

    3.) Jesus


    Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law... Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devilís works. Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. This is how Godís children ó and the Devilís children ó are made evident. Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother.
    (I John 3.4, 7-10)

    Let's go back to Jesus and realize that keeping the commandments are relative to the flow of grace (which is loves expression). John 14 is just one chapter explaining that in keeping His commandments, our Heavenly Father, as well as Jesus and His spirit comes to be with/in us, but look at the imperative cause:

    1.) v. 15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
    2.) v. 17 This is what I command you:keep loving each other.
    3.) v. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me...
    4.) v.23 If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word

    There are some things on this thread that stand in direct contradiction to what other scripture plainly states, and of this, only one main issue has just been given more light.

    "The one who says, 'I have come to know Him,' yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly in him the love of God is perfected. This is how we know we are in Him:The one who says he remains in Him should walk just as He walked."
    (I John 2.4-6)

    It's time to turn around seeking only the face of the very One whom you are spitting on.
    He is good and His loving kindness lasts forever.


    Timmy
    Last edited by Timmy; 02-15-2012 at 04:13 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  6. #116
    This thread adds to this topic.

    Do we make void the law through faith?

    We establish the law of justification by faith in the Creators entity becoming incarnate.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 02-15-2012 at 04:24 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps 27:1 View Post
    Paul uses the term "law" loosely, so you have to be very careful with his intent (context)

    Rom 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
    Rom 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law;
    Rom 7:23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
    Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
    Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin

    Do not confuse moral law with ceremonial law. 1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

    Peace,

    Steve, aka the "delusional"
    Hi Steve,
    Paul points out that there are different levels to the law. The law was made for the ungodly. Without this function of law we would have chaos. This level or function of law is necessary for civilization. But it also works with individuals. To follow this law (let's just say the ten commandmens to make it simple.) is relatively easy with a modicum of self discipline. No commiting adultery or dishonoring parents, not murdering, etc. Now the first, loving the Lord thy God wih all your heart and soul and mind etc.,and the last Thou shalt not covet begin to touch on a whole other function of law. Paul also talks about this. I is that the law was made to bring every man guilty before God. It is because we are now in the realmof mind, thoughts and emotions. Jesus also spoke about this. He said if you lust you have already commited adultery. He also said if you are angry with your brother for no reason that you are gulty of murder. Paul is addressing this conundrum of the lusts that drive us being part and parcel of this flesh body and flesh mind. Jesus took it ven further than Paul when he said be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. That's pretty darned perfect. Especially since God never sinned and I have sinned flagrantly. Does that mean we do not try and live a good life,not lying and notmudering or coveting? Of course not. But the law was nailed to the tree with Jesus. And thank God that it has been taken out of our way. Paul said we have been perfected. Thank God that when He forgives He also forgets. And thank God for the promise of the Spirit and the New Covenant without which we wouldn't have a snowball'schance in hell. It gets to the point where you jus have to look to the promises and realize we are being formed into his image. It's the only chance we have. Bob
    Harry Potter,.. "Is this all happening in my head, or is it real?"
    Professor Dumbledor,.. "Of course it's all happening in your head. What makes you think that means it isn't real?"

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Jesus stated plainly, "NOTHING WILL PASS AWAY FROM THE LAW until both earth and heaven pass away," in Matthew 5.18.
    Yes, and numerous passaged plainly state that the Old Covenant was passing away:
    Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
    So we have a contradiction in the Bible. You choose to resolve this contradiction by asserting that one passage "trumps" another passage of the Bible. Why not go the other way, and accept the many passages that say the Old Covenant is not for Christains? Either way, you have to mess with the "plain meaning" of one set of passages or another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    In this one fact, we can boldly realize the not one covenant has never passed away. This is because every suceeding covenant was built upon the previous covenant shadowing into reality. Following the paper trail, STS, this leads back to the garden of Eden.
    That's not what Hebrews says:
    Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 ∂ For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
    It seems to me that the Bible makes it perfectly clear that the OC was passing away to make room for the New.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Have heaven or earth passed away?
    Absolutely. The Heaven and Earth speak of the ruling Priests with the Law (Heaven) and the People of Israel (Earth). It is the "kosmos" - and the kosmos of Noah's time "passed away" in the flood. Obviously, Peter was not talking about the physical cosmos, so why should we think Jesus was?
    2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world (kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    The "heavens and the earth" - the "kosmos" of Noah's time PERISHED. Thus the Bible teaches the meaning of the "heaven and earth" that would not perish "until all was fulfilled" in 70 AD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    The Old Covenant has never passed away.
    So we do not "die to the law" so we can be "married" to Christ?
    Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 ∂ Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
    Your doctrine contradicts the central teaching of the NT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    There are far too many scriptures which contradict what many on this thread claims to be truth... and we can start with Galatians 3: Jesus ratified (not abolished) the Old Covenant. This is the very foundational basis for the whole plot of the Bible. Jesus never annulled or abolished any covenant.
    The meaning of that passage is open to a variety of interpretations. '
    Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    How can be be "under the law" if we died to the law through Christ? Your doctrine contradicts way to many Scriptures to be believed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    To say that any particular covenant is done away with is a round about way of saying that it never was a covenant in the first place.
    Not true! God made a New Covenant and all the faithful believed it. God does not keep the Old Covenant with anyone now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Because it was God representing both man and God in the person of Yeshua swearing covenant oath with God, this full filling of everything prior was not merely incorporated through fallen Adam's seed. Now more potent than ever NOTHING EVER CHANGED.

    Because Jesus did not abolish, but instead ratified the Old Covenant, actually everything was filled to the full, full-filled.
    That directly contradicts the teachings in Hebrews:
    Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
    Paul said the law was abolished:
    Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    At some point, you should at least admit that your doctrines "appear" to contradict many verses in the NT. Otherwise, it will seem that you are denying what the text plainly states. You don't have to agree the they really mean what they plainly state - it's certainly possible that they need to be reinterpreted since they appear to contradict other passages. But then again, maybe it is the "other passages" that need to be reinterpreted. Or maybe the Bible is logically incoherent and there is no resolution to the contradiction. But whatever the case, it is foolish to deny that a strong biblical case can be made for the traditional understanding that Christians are not "under the law" and need not concern themselves with "keeping Torah."

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    God never changes and He honors His unchanging word above His very name. . .and His Word is forever settled, even as Hebrews 13.8 clearly reveals, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."
    All who hold the traditional view would agree with the truth of those verses, so they don't help justify either position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Youz guys can keep on picking apart fine points ignoring context toward the whole of scripture, but doesn't this mislead others as well to miss the main point.

    What benefit to anyone is there in this?
    I'd say the same about you.

    And what benefit is there in trying to keep a dead OT law? I see none.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Jesus leading up to obeying God in the spirit of the Law as in it's letter began and in conclusion clarified, "For this reason, whoever will break one of the tiniest commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven... Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that say to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord... ...then will I proclaim to them,'I never knew you: leave my presence you Law breakers.' "
    Your interpretation is the problem. Paul said Christians don't need to get circumcised. That in itself negates the entire law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Think seriously about what you are claiming to be truth to other readers, and ignoring such passages as:

    "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous..." 1 Jn. 5:2-3
    That's right. And his commandment is faith, not works of the law. What else is there to say? It's stated as plainly as can be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Compared to what is attempted to be made true without infallible proof, still, scripture does not contradict itself.

    Human reasonings and rationalizations, on the other hand, tend to contradict both the thinker, and always the scripture.
    Yes, we all know that. The question is which interpretation is right? Your interpretation contradicts all the passages that say Christians are not under the law, that they have died to the law through Christ, that the law was "passing away" etc., etc., etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Some of this threads conclusions leave at least three possibilities:

    1.) False statements so far on this thread form a faulty foundation on which oneiric conclusions pile higher.

    2.) Paul is contradicting Jesus, the Law, and the prophets...

    3.) Jesus is confused or lying about what He says...

    Who has the most authority?

    1.) Us

    2.) Paul

    3.) Jesus
    When you set the record of the Gospels (Jesus) against the record of Paul's letters, you are setting Scripture against Scripture. Are you saying that Paul got some things wrong? If not, then it is meaningless to emphasize the sayings of Jesus reported in the Gospels over the teachings of Jesus as reported by Paul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Who agreed with His/our Father about this plan and knows all the fine nitty gritty details about it?

    1.) Us

    2.) Paul

    3.) Jesus
    Again, you are setting Scripture against Scripture. Your house appears to be divided.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    The signs of the covenant was not Shabbat. Shabbat is a comemoration, a remembrance of all God has done and enabled us to do, honoring Him as the
    Not true.
    Exodus 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. 18 ∂ And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
    God called the Sabbath a "sign" at the time he gave the Ten Commandments, the heart of the OT Law. This is confirmed in Ezekiel where the Sabbath is called "sign" in the context of the giving of the Law:
    Ezekiel 20:11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 ∂ But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.
    The Sabbath is a sign of the Law, not dissimilar to circumcision. Whoever failed to keep Sabbath would be "cut off" from the people, just like anyone who failed to be circumcised. Obviously, Christians are not subject to the law of circumcision, so they are not subject to the OT law in any way at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    The perspectives above presented have been encountered before and appears to be something resulting from people learning not by example and word, but only 'supposed' rhetoric founded on human logic limiting perspective only to certain books of the Bible and not the whole counsel of God. It comes from logic untestable as a physical reality and appears to be reinterpretive representations of what various aspects of the law of Moshe actually are.
    Funny thing - how do you know that those words don't apply to you? Why do you think that only those who agree with you are free from that critique. You have said nothing that proves your doctrines are not "founded on human logic limiting perspective."

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Actuallly, what was being refered to were the Mitzvot ((10)Command(ments)) of God and not the Law of Moshe per se. Much, but not all of the Law of Moshe is relative to both a Yaweh owned and operated socio-political kingdom. Anyone who advocates and adheres to a kingdom not based on Torah is going to have trouble obeying the whole Torah. This is not saying that it is meaningless, but rather there are varying ramifications for the nation where the Priesthood (now after the Order of YHShVH of Melki-Tzedek) is not the ultimate authority.
    The Big Ten are the essence of the OT law.

    As for trying to "obey Torah" - just look at what Peter said:
    Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
    Why are you contradicting Peter and trying to put the yoke of the law on your neck?

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Jesus stated plainly, "NOTHING WILL PASS AWAY FROM THE LAW until both earth and heaven pass away," in Matthew 5.18.
    Here is the actual verse: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    "Heaven" is the source of ordinances from God, and 'earth" is the domain of those ordinces [Job 38:33]The ordinances of the Mosaic covenant were the "Heavens" of that conditional covenant and the land of Judea was the domain of those temporary, faulty ordinances. The ordinaces and New Heavens {commands} of the New covenant are not like those of the Old but are of love, life and freedom.
    Heb 12:18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

    19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

    20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

    21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

    22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

    23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

    25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

    26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

    The "LAW" as written in the book of Deut also included prophecies about it's inadeqacies; it's being a shadow and negative of the everlasting covt and prophecies of it's latter end. It's these prophecies which Jesus came to fulfill.!!
    See these 20 questions about Deuteronomy.

    Seeking to keep the law is seeking to justify oneself to God through the 'righteousness of the PHarisees". The righteousness by faith alone in the entity of God, his incarnation in Christ and his words and Spirit exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.

    In this one fact, we can boldly realize the not one covenant has never passed away. This is because every suceeding covenant was built upon the previous covenant shadowing into reality. Following the paper trail, STS, this leads back to the garden of Eden.
    The "new" covenant is called New in it's contrast against the mosaic covenant which began with Moses; not Abraham. Jeremiah said that it woudl be NOT LIKE the covenant made when he took them by the hand and led them out of EGYPT. This was the MOSAIC covenant not made with Abraham or the fathers. The "old" covenant is made old by the Everlasting Covenant. This is what the writer of Hebrews says. In calling the covenant NEW, he made the former "old".It supercedes, supplants and dissolved the old. The old was called Not the good way in Is 65:2 as confirmed by Paul in Rom 10 and described in 2 Cor 3.

    Have heaven or earth passed away?
    Richard answered this well; doing a good job Richard.
    How does that square with so many who will take certain specific scriptures out of context, introduce a variated belief system that skirts the issue that Yeshua plainly repeats what Moshe wrote, "HUMANS SHALL not LIVE only by bread, but THROUGH EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM GOD's MOUTH.
    Jesus as the "new Prophet" of Deut 18 brought the continual words of Life and bread of life that contrasted against the temporary manna from heaven. His words, teachings were the words from the very mouth of God and his incarnation brought proof of the creator of of Life and it's divinity.


    The Old Covenant has never passed away.
    For all too many, sadly this is true in their hearts; and they also treat the new testament as if it were a new set of conditional /corporal rules of appeasement and self justification unto God. "All without faith is sin".

    There are far too many scriptures which contradict what many on this thread claims to be truth... and we can start with Galatians 3: Jesus ratified (not abolished) the Old Covenant. This is the very foundational basis for the whole plot of the Bible. Jesus never annulled or abolished any covenant.
    Here is the verse your focusing on.
    And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
    What is 'the covenant" and what is "the law".
    In the context, "the covenant" is referrring to the promise spoken to Abraham and refers to the his "seed"... I.e. Christ, not his 'seeds' The seed promised to eve. The "law of Moses" [I.E. the mosaic covenant] 430 yrs later was delivered by moses not before him[Deut 5:1-3] and was a conditional/corporal/temporal set of rules. It is summarized in the book of Deuteronomy in Moses speech before they crossed Jordan. Paul is saying that the "law" of Moses didn't disannul the promise to Abraham (and Adam/Eve; all mankind) It didn't supercede it. But it was added as a schoolmaster to confirm the particular seed and show the negative way of the law [of Moses] as faulty (2 Cor 3) UNTIL the seed was to come to whom the promise was spoken.

    "The Promise" to Abraham was also called a Covenant, but it was not the mosaic temporal, conditional national covenant. That Mosaic covenant is called 'The Law" in Gal 3.

    The very verses you choose to present your position speak against your thoughts.


    8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

    16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

    21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
    To say that any particular covenant is done away with is a round about way of saying that it never was a covenant in the first place.

    Because it was God representing both man and God in the person of Yeshua swearing covenant oath with God, this full filling of everything prior was not merely incorporated through fallen Adam's seed. Now more potent than ever NOTHING EVER CHANGED.

    Because Jesus did not abolish, but instead ratified the Old Covenant, actually everything was filled to the full, full-filled.

    If God were a man that lies, the Old Covenant could be abolished yet this is not what happened at all. The Old Covenant was made reality. Yet, God is not a man that He should lie.
    In the very giving of the "mosaic covenant' [the conditional national temporal covenant] by moses, he himself declared it's inadequacies, it's time of cursing and then the time of it's 'latter end".
    Here are some of the answers.


    Jesus leading up to obeying God in the spirit of the Law as in it's letter began and in conclusion clarified, "For this reason, whoever will break one of the tiniest commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven... Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that say to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord... ...then will I proclaim to them,'I never knew you: leave my presence you Law breakers.' "
    Here is a thread about Matt 5: These lesser commandments refers to the Beatitudes which he had just spoken. He is the New Prophet of Deut 18 whos words would bring LIFE AND LOVE which the law could never do. See Gal 3:21
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 02-16-2012 at 10:03 AM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

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