Man of Lawlessness?

[heb13-13]

Hi Steve,

Therefore, when in your last post you mentioned some of the things you 'do' on what you call 'the Sabbath', making clear you are not 'keeping' the Sabbath of the Mosaic law, to me, this is confusing. On what basis, then, is your practice a biblically supportable 'keeping' of the 4th commandment (the failure to keep which was punishable by stoning to death)? This is what I don't get.

Hi Charisma,

Thank you for your clear and concise discussion on this.

I did deal with exactly how the Sabbath was supposed to be kept in the OT and no one keeps it that way, today.

There is no mention of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac or Jacob keeping it. People like to say it was kept before the Law, then made a part of the Law and therefore should be practiced after the Law. That is faulty logic with what has been revealed in the Scriptures.

Now, with respect to how Steve keeps the Sabbath, I see no difference if someone wants to keep it like Steve 7 days a week.

Steve will do work on the Sabbath. He will speak his own words and not always the words of the Lord and he will cook and clean and travel. And he is having a good time with the Lord and other Christians. That is wonderful! He esteems one day a week like that.

I on the other hand, esteem all days the same. So, I fellowship everyday with the Lord and His children. I travel, I work, I cook sometimes, (but would rather eat my wife's cooking), I clean sometimes, I speak my own words and I speak the Lord's words.

Therefore there is actually nothing different between me and Steve except Steve has told the Lord that 1 day a week he calls the Sabbath. And I treat everyday as the Sabbath because of the One I am holding onto (Col 2:19).
Therefore, I have Steve's 1 day covered plus 6 more (but whose counting).

Now, why would Steve be trying to get us to stop resting in the Lord the other 6 days of the week?

Steve, you need to read Romans 14 very slowly and remember that religionists have always had a very difficult time through the centuries with those who operate in the freedom and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and call no man their Leader except the Lord.

And it would not hurt if you pondered the other verse that Charisma gave in Colossians. If none of this helps, then do as the Lord says and find a way to walk in peace with your brothers and sisters that don't agree with you in respect to what Colossians says, below.

Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


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Rom 14:6
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.


"The kingdom of God is not meat, nor drink, but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Rom 14:17)

May the Lord give you peace in these matters,
Rick

[Charisma]

Hi Steve,

You asked if I'd followed the links you gave. No, I didn't. (I hope that doesn't seem disrespectful.) The quotes that you pulled off google, I felt, gave a good sense of what you wanted me to grasp.

And of course, it is impossible to read the NT without picking up a great deal more exhortation towards the outworking of the meaning of the Mosaic Law on its more positive aspects.

For instance: what the difference between Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might, and Deuteronomy 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway. and Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God, except that there was no 'renewing of your mind' until Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised; ) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching? (Which exception transforms the whole 'law-keeping' experience from a burden to a joy.)

The rest of Romans 12 is a challenging list of duties under the New Covenant, (and that's just one chapter), with which, apart from the operation of the Spirit of grace, it would be impossible to comply.

I don't know how you got the impression I am against the fulfilment of the law in the life of the believer. On the contrary, I believe very strongly in it. But (or AND) I know it is not possible for anyone to 'keep the law', except he be possessed of the Elect Servant, the lawGiver-lawKeeper, who has delivered us from the penalties of failure to keep 'the law' through His death, and given us a new spiritual law through His resurrection life - the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus (which hath made me free from the law of sin and death.)

I recall (I think) you said Romans 8 is your favourite chapter. I would say Romans 6 is closer to mine, or Ephesians, although what are these without the rest of scripture? And, God thinks we need the whole Book (OT and NT), so, there's plenty of study awaiting our attention - all for the sole purpose that we would better know the God whom we serve.



I hope these thoughts reassure you somewhat, and you can see we mostly differ through the terminology we use, rather than the heart of what we believe?







Hi Rick,

If I may be so bold, I don't think Steve has it in mind to prevent anyone being in sabbath rest on the six other days of the week. (!?) His emphasis is different. That's all.

[heb13-13]

Hi Rick,

If I may be so bold, I don't think Steve has it in mind to prevent anyone being in sabbath rest on the six other days of the week. (!?) His emphasis is different. That's all.

Hi Charisma,

Not a problem at all. I do realize what Steve is doing and was trying to emphasize and ask where is the problem, if we are keeping the one day that he keeps plus 6 more? And further, where is the problem if according to Colossians 2 and Romans 14, it is not important to the Lord as long as one is "holding to the Head"?

Blessings,
Rick

[Ps 27:1]

Greetings Charisma,

Therefore, when in your last post you mentioned some of the things you 'do' on what you call 'the Sabbath', making clear you are not 'keeping' the Sabbath of the Mosaic law, to me, this is confusing. On what basis, then, is your practice a biblically supportable 'keeping' of the 4th commandment (the failure to keep which was punishable by stoning to death)? This is what I don't get.

The 4th commandment is 4 verses long. Where am I breaking the sabbath? It says not to work, that doesn't mean you go comatose.

Exo 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Does this mean it is okay to curse our parents since we no longer stone people? Using the same logic that you did with the 4th, it would be.

For the first time, under the New Covenant there is the possibility of 'a conscience void of offence,' and Jesus' emphasis on our relationships with one another being a sign we have properly understood what God has done for us in the remission of sins which we may obtain through repentance and faith in His finished work. To me, the entering into the rest of His finished work, and living in the Spirit 24/7 is the sabbath He obtained for us - whether we can organise a few hours all in the same place each week to think about it, or not. (I realise there is a greater rest, in the resurrection, but, we have a foretaste, now.) And, I think you do understand this.

Again, you are missing the point. I understand ALL the previous passages you quoted. I believe them, but they do nothing to support your argument. The sabbath was instituted as a memorial, not a shadow, like the other ceremonial sabbath days. It came before sin and it will exist after sin has finally run its course. God made time holy. Yes, we rest in him, but that does not nullify the 4th commandment.

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16 (NIV)

I believe you and Rick are walking on thin ice the way you interpret some of Paul's words. I know you probably won't look at these, but maybe someone else will.

http://www.keithhunt.com/Paulsab.html scholarly work, I used to have the book.

http://www.colossians-2-16.com/index.html

The biggest point that you and Rick seem to gloss over is that holding to your position contradicts the PLAIN words of Jesus, Paul, James, and John at the least. It also questions the decision of God to put the 4th in with the other 9 in stone and inside the ark. If the 4th was to be irrelevant, then He shouldn't have put it with the other 9 which are still relevant today. Name me one other commandment that you don't think we need to keep. Just one. I rest my case.

Texts that your positon contradicts:

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
(I know it is OT, but he says man, not JEW)

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(sounds pretty serious to me)

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
(See, even Paul makes the distinction between ceremonial law and the moral law)

Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
(James is saying that the 10 commandments is the law of liberty but you want to call it a yoke of bondage. Something is wrong here. Oh, I know, you don't really have contempt for all of them, just the 4th.)

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
(Anyone can say they love God, but John is giving a kind of litmus test)

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
(keep going to at least verse 10)
(John makes it very clear that to sin is to break the law and that a person who keeps on sinning, i.e., breaking the law, doesn't know God. John said it, I'm just quoting an easy to understand text.)

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
(seems they are still important to me)

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(Fitting bookend to Ecc 12:13. BTW, I know that we have to be born again to even be able to keep the commandments, but the next verse, 15, makes it clear that law breakers are not going through the gates.)

I really am done with this debate. You guys can have the last word and I really don't judge you on your position. It took me years to see that the commonly held belief that wicked people are tortured in hell forever is a distortion of scripture. So it would be hypocritical of me to pass judgement because you don't see what I believe is truth. I am just casting seeds not stones.

Peace and Blessings be yours,
Steve

[heb13-13]

I really am done with this debate. You guys can have the last word and I really don't judge you on your position.

Peace and Blessings be yours,
Steve

Thanks Steve,

My last word is I will continue to "keep the Sabbath" 7 days a week.

Also, do you know which day is really the Sabbath? The Jewish calendar was lost for awhile and there are missing years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing...ewish_calendar)

So are you really celebrating the Sabbath on the right day? Not that I care. There is much liberty in Christ and you have the freedom to respect holy days and sabbaths (plural) or not. It seems you have taken some liberty upon you to celebrate the Sabbath in a much more relaxed way than the Bible specifies. Good for you.

God bless,
Rick

[Charisma]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your reply.

I confess I don't understand how you personally define 'work'.

I just did a wordsearch on 'memorial' and it seems like there must be some memorials you don't keep - like Passover.

So, I'm even more bewildered.



But feel free to bow out. I had the same idea before I read your post, and now I've got more questions than answers.

Every blessing to you, also.

[Ps 27:1]

Thanks Steve,

My last word is I will continue to "keep the Sabbath" 7 days a week.

Also, do you know which day is really the Sabbath? The Jewish calendar was lost for awhile and there are missing years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing...ewish_calendar)

So are you really celebrating the Sabbath on the right day? Not that I care. There is much liberty in Christ and you have the freedom to respect holy days and sabbaths (plural) or not. It seems you have taken some liberty upon you to celebrate the Sabbath in a much more relaxed way than the Bible specifies. Good for you.

God bless,
Rick

Hi Rick,

Google is your friend. http://www.uhcg.org/Cal-Fl-Moon/HasTimeBeenLost.html

Blessings,
Steve

[Ps 27:1]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your reply.

I confess I don't understand how you personally define 'work'.

I just did a wordsearch on 'memorial' and it seems like there must be some memorials you don't keep - like Passover.

So, I'm even more bewildered.



But feel free to bow out. I had the same idea before I read your post, and now I've got more questions than answers.

Every blessing to you, also.

Work= making a living, washing the car, mowing the lawn, cleaning house, etc. (activities that can wait)

Passover came after sin and is not one of the 10 commandments. Many Christians do observe Passover and I believe that is a personal decision.

Blessings,
Steve

[heb13-13]

Work= making a living, washing the car, mowing the lawn, cleaning house, etc. (activities that can wait)

Passover came after sin and is not one of the 10 commandments. Many Christians do observe Passover and I believe that is a personal decision.

Blessings,
Steve

Well now, a lawyer's answer.

We need to know which activities can wait, Steve. One man's activity is another man's necessity.
Please tell us every activity that can wait, lest we incur God's wrath for "breaking" the Sabbath.

Don't adjust your TV, we have control. You have just entered the "Rationalization Zone".

Rick

[Ps 27:1]

Well now, a lawyer's answer.

We need to know which activities can wait, Steve. One man's activity is another man's necessity.
Please tell us every activity that can wait, lest we incur God's wrath for "breaking" the Sabbath.

Don't adjust your TV, we have control. You have just entered the "Rationalization Zone".

Rick

Greetings Rick,

Like I said, I'm done debating. If you have honest questions, I'll try to answer them to the best of my knowledge. I see no need to give a list of do's and don't's. It is all about the heart and how you want to spend the day. When a judge enters a courtroom, everyone rises out of respect or reverence. God made a specific portion of time holy. As you know, holy means "set apart" or treated as special and not common. To treat the sabbath like any other day is to make void its specialness or holiness. It is now common.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
...
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/comme...ew&ar=Mat_15_5

Peace and Blessings,
Steve