Man of Lawlessness?

[Ps 27:1]

Hey Steve,

I'm not offended but thanks for your concern. I just know when it's time to quit. I don't feel condemned in the slightest, I'm just going to pray for you.
Maybe see you on another thread.

Rick

Thanks Rick. I may bow out of this thread, too.

Hey Timmy:

I saw that you had already quoted Paul on circumcision and the commandments of God. I guess I should read the thread from the beginning before jumping in.

I didn't see this anywhere so I'll just add it:

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This shows that God's laws were known and kept before Moses.

One final verse and then I'll bow out becuase I don't have the time, desire, or energy to sift through all the silliness.

Psa 119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

Blessings,
Steve

[Timmy]

Thanks Rick. I may bow out of this thread, too.

Hey Timmy:

I saw that you had already quoted Paul on circumcision and the commandments of God. I guess I should read the thread from the beginning before jumping in.

I didn't see this anywhere so I'll just add it:

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This shows that God's laws were known and kept before Moses.

One final verse and then I'll bow out becuase I don't have the time, desire, or energy to sift through all the silliness.

Psa 119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

Blessings,
Steve

Yeah, it was quoted but you just stepeed it further where that indicator is going, as with your qoute from Gen. 26...but wait there's more coming when the text is edited down to the bare nubbins, or should Rootin' Tootin' Bullbuck Timmy lay claim to theze here rejunz as awreddy my manz land. i aint seen no white flags floppin in thah wind yet. You guys from California(jk) got you hedz outta tha sand at least.

(BTW, one o' my nuclear sisters lives in Oliver Springs. She moved there after quiting the FBI (my probing queries revealing disenchantment with the AL Q/Homeland Security farce played on the American ppl just so they can now walk into your home without a warrant).

How can i say how i feel about all that nicely?
OK, here's a joke but play special attention to the punch line:
In Minnesota, what lies at the bottom of Bass Lake?
Bass turds


Seriously i think,
Timmy

[heb13-13]

Good morning Timmy and Richard,

Nothing boring about this thread, Timmy, Tim, Tim and RAM.

Thanks for the levity, Timmy.

I think I will start the day by with a and respond to the thread about "the witness" that we have in us.

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...ark-13-Luke-21.

Dem sum wild getups there Timmy!

Ok, catch you boys on the airwaves,

Later,
Rick

[Shalom]

Yes, Paul (and most other biblical writers) liked hyperbole. But I was not addressing that argument. I was trying to point out that you seem to be confusing "ritual cleanliness" with literal physical cleanliness as if the purpose of the law was to keep people physically healthy. If that were the case, then the law is not relevant since we don't have physical health problems from eating shellfish and whatnot.

As for the "perfect ten" - that was the law given to Israel. It was never given to Gentiles.

Please cite the specific verse where Paul makes a "distinction" between circumcision and the ten commandments.

And yes, Psalm 119 says a lot about how the law is a guide. But there is no indication anywhere in that Psalm that it is talking about the Ten Commandments per se. On the contrary, the word "law" is used synonymously with "judgments" and "commandments" and speaks of the general teaching of the entire body of Scripture that existed at that time.

If one does enough research, you will find that the unclean foods are indeed physically unclean as well, pig meat, no matter how well it is raised still has worms in it, shellfish and the like are bottom feeders and eat all the contaminants of the ocean. But if you so chose to eat it then go ahead.

As to your quote of the 'perfect ten' given only to Israel, that is true in part. It was given to all the world but only Israel accepted. There is an understanding that at the time of the giving of the ten commandments, that Elohim spoke in 70 different languages at the same time and that tongues of fire shot out as well; so when the day of Shavuot came in the time of the apostles, they knew right away something of the same magnitude happened just as it did at Sinai. So in all reality it was given also to the Gentiles.

Now if one is a believer in Messiah Yahshua, and trusts in Him alone, that person then is covenanting with Him and are being adopted into the family. So if you are/were a Gentile you DO NOT remain a Gentile, you are now of the commonwealth of Israel. The commandments were ALWAYS to be internalized even in the time of Moses but only some of them did and are ones who accepted it by faith, but most did not accept it on faith. The internalization will ALWAYS manifest itself in the external ;ALWAYS. If one does the external only without internalizing it, then they are JUST as lost as the one who internalizes the commandments and does not externalize them. Hebrew thought sees the whole being-spirit,mind, and body, Greek Gnostic thought is such that your body is seperate from your spirit and soul, but not so in Hebraic thought. This is what Christians have come to adopt and evolve into. The body does bad things and is inherently evil and the soul is good and will live righteously, but the soul cannot control the body. Whereas Hebraicly the spirit and soul control the body by beating it into subjection as even Paul has said.


As to Psalm 119 it is talking not about just the ten commandments, just as you indicated, it is talking about the whole Torah which has been mistranslated as "Law." Its true meaning is teaching and instruction, which is where we get the WHOLE council of Elohim. You are correct about it including the judgements and teachings so therefore it is for all who desire to follow the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Ya'acov as per Numbers 15:28-31

So just as David says, about loving Elohim's Torah so I do also because it is done on faith. What most Christians don't see and seem to refuse to see, is that the Torah was a GIFT from Elohim, NOT a burden, it is our 'ketubah.' Maybe that is why so many Christians don't have a problem with marriage and divorce and remarriage because they see the vows as a BURDEN just as they see Elohim's Torah as a BURDEN and NEEDS to be done away with. When in fact it is a beautiful love letter to His people who accept it upon faith and He (the Holy One) who gives us grace to carry out His commands.

So if you or others desire to keep another day than the Shabbat as your day of rest, you are free to do so, but there is a saying also that people will know the one you serve by the calendar you keep. Yahshua has always been our Shabbat rest, but that does not give us the right to substitute another day does it? I challenge anyone here to show where it says that the Shabbat can be any day of the week. Don't use Romans 14 because that is another one of Paul's writtings taken way out of context. Show me where in the Torah where Elohim made provisions to celebrate other days than what He had written for us.

Even Isaiah 56 speaks of a later time and the words he uses is for the son of the foreigner (which is a heathen, the Hebrew word 'nekar') that then jons himself to the Holy One and keeps His Shabbats... Then Paul talks about us not offending the Jew, and this is in reference to pursuing Elohim and not offending the Netzarim, or the Gentiles who are pursuing Elohim, yet it seems to me that Christians have done alot in offending the Jews and Netzarim by doing things contrary to the Word (Torah) of Elohim.

Also you stated that the first commandment for the Jews is your preamble. This is another problem because it is Hellenistic thinking and you might as well belong to the Jesus Seminar who throw lots to see which is to be allowed and which is not depending upon your theology. It is never to be that Jews become Christians and deny who they are, in fact it is the other way around, Gentiles become believers in Messiah who was a Jew and take on His ways, not the rabbinic ways or man's ways. It was Gentiles who were coming into the synagogues and wanted to be saved and learn the ways of the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Ya'acov.

Shalom

[Shalom]

I am still suprised that no one will answer the question about what a covenant is and how long it is gopod for and what about the word 'forever' does Elohim mean? I want personal answers not someone elses thoughts that is not on this forum.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Good morning Timmy and Richard,

Nothing boring about this thread, Timmy, Tim, Tim and RAM.

Thanks for the levity, Timmy.

Yeah - it's good to lighten things up a little. I was thinking I might have to move all the "goofball" posts between Timmy and me to their own thread, but I think we've got things back on topic now.

I think I will start the day by with a and respond to the thread about "the witness" that we have in us.

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...ark-13-Luke-21.

That' would be great. I was wondering if you were going to answer that one.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

If one does enough research, you will find that the unclean foods are indeed physically unclean as well, pig meat, no matter how well it is raised still has worms in it, shellfish and the like are bottom feeders and eat all the contaminants of the ocean. But if you so chose to eat it then go ahead.

Good morning Shalom,

I agree that there are some apparent connections between the biblical dietary laws and the "physical cleanliness" of the animals. But I tell yet, if you've ever had chickens (we have 24 or so) you would not elevate them as some kind of "clean" animal! And what's wrong with rabbits? And vegans will cite plenty of stats about how meat eating in general is bad for your health. Why didn't God prohibit all meat? If he really wanted to give "health laws" rather than religious laws, he could have done a much better job.

And pork with worms? That's exceedingly rare, at least in America. There are plenty of pathogens in any meat product. Just look at E. Coli!

As to your quote of the 'perfect ten' given only to Israel, that is true in part. It was given to all the world but only Israel accepted. There is an understanding that at the time of the giving of the ten commandments, that Elohim spoke in 70 different languages at the same time and that tongues of fire shot out as well; so when the day of Shavuot came in the time of the apostles, they knew right away something of the same magnitude happened just as it did at Sinai. So in all reality it was given also to the Gentiles.

I understand that old Jewish tradition about the 70 languages and all, but why do you believe it? Is it not just a "tradition?" How do you know if there is any truth in it? We can't believe all the Jewish traditions you know. They've spent thousands of years making up stuff! And it doesn't matter anyway, since the Bible says nothing about God offering the Law to the Gentiles. Indeed, that concept is a profound misunderstanding of the role of the Torah in the formation of Israel and the bringing forth of the Gospel. The Gentiles were never "under the Torah" and it has nothing to do with the Eskimos and Chineses "refusing" an offer from God that was never given them.

Now if one is a believer in Messiah Yahshua, and trusts in Him alone, that person then is covenanting with Him and are being adopted into the family. So if you are/were a Gentile you DO NOT remain a Gentile, you are now of the commonwealth of Israel. The commandments were ALWAYS to be internalized even in the time of Moses but only some of them did and are ones who accepted it by faith, but most did not accept it on faith. The internalization will ALWAYS manifest itself in the external ;ALWAYS. If one does the external only without internalizing it, then they are JUST as lost as the one who internalizes the commandments and does not externalize them. Hebrew thought sees the whole being-spirit,mind, and body, Greek Gnostic thought is such that your body is seperate from your spirit and soul, but not so in Hebraic thought. This is what Christians have come to adopt and evolve into. The body does bad things and is inherently evil and the soul is good and will live righteously, but the soul cannot control the body. Whereas Hebraicly the spirit and soul control the body by beating it into subjection as even Paul has said.

Again, we agree!

You said pretty much the same things I said earlier in this thread. Paul was clear that the law was to be obeyed in faith (Rom 9:32).

And I agree that the idea of the body-soul in the Bible is presented as a single unity for the most part. We see that in the formation of Adam. He was made from dust (matter) and given a spirit (ruach) and so became a living "soul" (nephesh). But what is there in "Gnostic Greek thought" that denies that unity?

I think you prejudices against Greek as "gnostic" (and hence "bad") are making you see things in a false light. And it seems obviously erroneous since God was will to give us the NT in Greek and not Hebrew. Thus, the "Hebrew roots" doctrine seems to directly oppose a high view of Scripture as from God. And ideed that has been seen in practice where some Hebrew roots teachers reject the book of Hebrews and strongly argue against the plain meaning of Galatians because those books contradict their doctrines. And most willfully pervert the Bible by calling the Apostle Paul by his former name Shaul when he never once signed his letters that way. They actually CHANGE THE WORDS OF THE BIBLE to fit their false doctrines! If that doesn't reveal their enmity with God, nothing will.

As to Psalm 119 it is talking not about just the ten commandments, just as you indicated, it is talking about the whole Torah which has been mistranslated as "Law." Its true meaning is teaching and instruction, which is where we get the WHOLE council of Elohim. You are correct about it including the judgements and teachings so therefore it is for all who desire to follow the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Ya'acov as per Numbers 15:28-31

The JEWS are the ones who translated Torah as Law in the Septuagint long before any Christians showed up on the scene. And the only NT we have is Greek (except for some later translation into Hebrew/Aramaic) and God seems like he was perfectly pleased to use the Greek NT as for the NT since he didn't provide anything different. If you condemn the NT for translating Torah as Nomos (Law) then you condemn both God and the NT he supposedly gave us.

You need to be more critical in your thinking. You seem to have bought the whole "Hebrew roots" thing without doing your own research. That movement is filled with errors from beginning to end. Sure, there's lots of "nice stuff" if you are into Jewish traditions, but most of it directly contradicts what the Bible actually teaches. But that's nothing new for a Christian group is it? I mean, you apparently believe the 99% of all Christians throughout history have gotten it wrong with the Greek NT and the Greek pagan gnosticism that infects it! So why believe any of it? Why do you believe a Bible that was collected and transmitted by people that you think were false teachers? If their teachings were false, why believe their book????

So just as David says, about loving Elohim's Torah so I do also because it is done on faith. What most Christians don't see and seem to refuse to see, is that the Torah was a GIFT from Elohim, NOT a burden, it is our 'ketubah.' Maybe that is why so many Christians don't have a problem with marriage and divorce and remarriage because they see the vows as a BURDEN just as they see Elohim's Torah as a BURDEN and NEEDS to be done away with. When in fact it is a beautiful love letter to His people who accept it upon faith and He (the Holy One) who gives us grace to carry out His commands.

It might be nice to transfigure the Torah into your Ketubah - there certainly is some nice imagery their. But you seem to be forgetting the "curse of the law" that is emphasized in both the OT and NT:

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 ¶ And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

I presented this Scripture earlier. I don't recall anyone answering it. Peter explicitly identifies the TORAH OF MOSES as a "yoke" that Jews were "not able to bear" and that it would be "tempting God" if they attempted to put it upon the NECK of the Gentiles. How could the language be any plainer?

And have you answered Paul's many statements about the curse of the Torah, and how Christians had DIED TO THE TORAH?

And there are many other Scriptures that are contradicted by the teaching that Christians are supposed to "keep Torah."

So if you or others desire to keep another day than the Shabbat as your day of rest, you are free to do so, but there is a saying also that people will know the one you serve by the calendar you keep. Yahshua has always been our Shabbat rest, but that does not give us the right to substitute another day does it? I challenge anyone here to show where it says that the Shabbat can be any day of the week. Don't use Romans 14 because that is another one of Paul's writtings taken way out of context. Show me where in the Torah where Elohim made provisions to celebrate other days than what He had written for us.

What Sabbath rules do you follow? Where did you get those rules? The Bible says very little about it and the Jews have many traditions. Do you follow the Kosher rules? They had been busy making up their own religion way back when Jesus castigated them for it, and they've continued making up stuff for 2000 years since! Why do you use Jewish traditions as the source of your faith? Don't you know they also have traditions that Jesus was a false prophet and Christianity is a false religion? It looks like you just pick and choose whatever suits the religion that you are making up. That's what the Hebrew roots movement really is - a modern made up religion led by all sorts of crazy people like failed date setter Michael Rood and Bible-rejecting Monte Judah who said the Book of Hebrews should be tossed because it contradicts the religion he made up.

Even Isaiah 56 speaks of a later time and the words he uses is for the son of the foreigner (which is a heathen, the Hebrew word 'nekar') that then jons himself to the Holy One and keeps His Shabbats... Then Paul talks about us not offending the Jew, and this is in reference to pursuing Elohim and not offending the Netzarim, or the Gentiles who are pursuing Elohim, yet it seems to me that Christians have done alot in offending the Jews and Netzarim by doing things contrary to the Word (Torah) of Elohim.

The Netzarim refers to Christians, whether Jew or Gentile. There is no distinction in the Church.

Also you stated that the first commandment for the Jews is your preamble. This is another problem because it is Hellenistic thinking and you might as well belong to the Jesus Seminar who throw lots to see which is to be allowed and which is not depending upon your theology. It is never to be that Jews become Christians and deny who they are, in fact it is the other way around, Gentiles become believers in Messiah who was a Jew and take on His ways, not the rabbinic ways or man's ways. It was Gentiles who were coming into the synagogues and wanted to be saved and learn the ways of the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Ya'acov.

Shalom

There you go again with your "Hellenistic thinking" fallacy. There is nothing "Hellenistic" about recognizing a preamble as a preamble. I get the impression you are merely asserting the truth of the Jewish tradition because it is a Jewish tradition. That doesn't mean it is right, you know! There are lots of "Jewish traditions" that are infected with "Hellenistic gnosticism" so how do you go about choosing which to believe and which to reject?

The Jews had not choice but to quit being Jews because God Himself destroyed the Temple and kicked them out of the land of Israel. And why did he do that? Because the Old Covenant had fulfilled its purpose, and passed away to make room for the New Covenant. Or that's what I would have said when I was a Christian, anyway!

Great chatting!

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I am still suprised that no one will answer the question about what a covenant is and how long it is gopod for and what about the word 'forever' does Elohim mean? I want personal answers not someone elses thoughts that is not on this forum.

The idea of "forever" as "eternity" is a Hellenistic concept (to use your terminology). The Hebraic view is more along the lines of an "age" that has a beginning and an end.

This was the "age" the ended when Christ destroyed the Temple in 70 AD as he predicted in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?

It is the same "age" that Daniel spoke of and which Christ referenced in Matthew 24 (everything is very well integrated). Since the Greek NT often quotes the LXX (Greek OT) I will quote that version:

LXX Daniel 9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

That "time of the end" (suntelia) is exactly the same word in both Matthew 24 and Daniel 9:27, and Christ referred to Daniel in Matthew 24, and the whole prophecy was centered on the destruction of the Temple which was fulfilled in 70 AD, so that's when the OT covenant fully ended and the NT is the only covenant God has with anyone.

Or that's how I would have said it when I was a Christian, anyway!

And I think this shows the power of the Preterist position. You don't even have to be a Christian to believe it! It is what the Bible actually teaches. Or if not, it's the best anyone can do with a fundamentally flawed Bible. In any case, the Futurist view of a yet future "end times" is entirely wrong as far as I can tell.

Great chatting!

Richard

[heb13-13]

What do you think "last days" as in the next verse means?

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" (Heb 1:2)

Rick

[Richard Amiel McGough]

What do you think "last days" as in the next verse means?

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" (Heb 1:2)

Rick

Glad you asked! I think those "last days" referred to the first century, culminating in the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. This view is strongly confirmed by countless verses. For example, later in the same book we read:

Hebrews 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

The "end of the ages" is defined as the time when Christ was crucified, i.e. the first century. Likewise, this is confirmed by the Apostle Paul:

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Upon whom did the "ends of the ages" come? The first century Christians. And Peter concurs:

Acts 2:16 "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

And on and on it goes. There really is no plainer teaching in the entire Bible. The "end of the age" and the "last days" all happened in the first century. The folks who think we are currently in the Biblical "last days" are off by about two thousand years.