Locust

[Brother Les]

I understand that Jesus mentioned the pit, gates, etc...But you still haven't shown where Jesus spoke of Roman.

Daniel 8:
19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.


Revelation 1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 17
1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

[Beck]

Daniel 8:
19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

I still don't see how this is connected to Rome. Verse 23 speaks of the little horn that king that shall arise from 'their' kingdom. Well who is 'their kingdom' in reference to? It would be the four divisions of the Grecian Empire. And the one that came out from them is of that northern kingdom of Seleucid as Antiochus IV. It was him whom the evening and morning is in reference to. So I'm not inclined to intrepert Rome in these passages.

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Now this verse does seem to give that implication. I would like to hear how you intrepert this verse.

[Edward Goodie]

I agree. Nahum describes armies as locusts:

Nahum 3:13 Behold, thy people in the midst of thee are women: the gates of thy land shall be set wide open unto thine enemies: the fire shall devour thy bars. 14 Draw thee waters for the siege, fortify thy strong holds: go into clay, and tread the morter, make strong the brickkiln. 15 There shall the fire devour thee; the sword shall cut thee off, it shall eat thee up like the cankerworm: make thyself many as the cankerworm, make thyself many as the locusts. 16 Thou hast multiplied thy merchants above the stars of heaven: the cankerworm spoileth, and flieth away. 17 Thy crowned are as the locusts, and thy captains as the great grasshoppers, which camp in the hedges in the cold day, but when the sun ariseth they flee away, and their place is not known where they are. 18 Thy shepherds slumber, O king of Assyria: thy nobles shall dwell in the dust: thy people is scattered upon the mountains, and no man gathereth them. 19 There is no healing of thy bruise; thy wound is grievous: all that hear the bruit of thee shall clap the hands over thee: for upon whom hath not thy wickedness passed continually?

And Joel uses the same figure:

Joel 1:1-6 KJV Joel 1:1 ¶ The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel. 2 Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers? 3 Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation. 4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten. 5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth. 6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

It's not like rocket science or advanced calculus! Indeed, it's barely on the level of Tic-Tac-Toe! Modern interpreters like Hal Lindsey who suggest that the locusts of Revelation were modern helicopters are utterly ignorant of the most basic elements of Scripture. Yet they have informed (or rather, misinformed) millions of people across the globe, and are haled as "Bible scholars"!

While not much on topic, I just wish to reiterate on Ram's point about Hal Lindsey's interpretation that locusts are helicopters. For his interpretation to be true, no one from the year 70AD to to 1930 could ever understand Revelation - and that is an absolute farce!

[Edward Goodie]

Let us also consider Peter's description of 'false teachers' that was to come upom the people and describe that in times past that there were false prophets as fallen messengers that are holded in darkness unto judgment. In as sence Peter describes those false prophets which had an evil conversation that deceived many and are holded in that deception unto their judgement.

Peter also warns Timothy that there will be in the last days scoffers waxing worse deceving and being deceived.

In many of instances the word sea, deep, bottomless pit, and flood waters describe those that are being deceived or those holded in deception. As in the case in Revelation 12:15 when satan is casted down he goes after the woman with a flood that comes out of his mouth to carry her away. "Deception" this would parallel with the flood of Naoh and the Creation?

So needless to say I do NOT interpert the locust that comes out of the bottomless pit as the Roman army.

Beck, how do you reconcile Joel 2:25 with this analysis of yours?

Joel 2:25 - And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

While I am a great fan of figures and metaphors, I am not yet convinced that this army was an army of deceivers. Is it not possible that these were insects that had devoured the land as was the case in Egypt?

[Beck]

Beck, how do you reconcile Joel 2:25 with this analysis of yours?

Joel 2:25 - And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

While I am a great fan of figures and metaphors, I am not yet convinced that this army was an army of deceivers. Is it not possible that these were insects that had devoured the land as was the case in Egypt?

Are you saying that you see the vineyard of God as literal as a field or figurative of Israel? If that is figurative for Israel then why would not the locust be figurative?

[Edward Goodie]

Are you saying that you see the vineyard of God as literal as a field or figurative of Israel? If that is figurative for Israel then why would not the locust be figurative?

Vineyard of God??? Sorry, but I am not following you here...

[Beck]

Vineyard of God??? Sorry, but I am not following you here...

Was the locust to come and devour one vine? Should we not undertand that in the figurative sence of Israel which is the vineyard according to Isaiah. Joel speaks as if the vine was God's vine or vineyard as descibed by Jesus in Matthew.


Joel 1:6-7
6For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.
7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.


Isaiah 5:7
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

Matthew 21:33
33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

[TheForgiven]

I believe the locusts described in Revelation is a figure used to describe the devistation Isreal suffered which was caused by the Romans stripping the land of all its consumables

You guys miss me yet?

JOE

[Twospirits]

I believe the locusts described in Revelation is a figure used to describe the devistation Isreal suffered which was caused by the Romans stripping the land of all its consumables

You guys miss me yet?

JOE

Hi Joe,
Been a while hope all's well with you. The problem with that position is the locusts are commanded not to harm any tree or vegetation, which is the diet of a locust (Rev. 9:4-5). They are also commanded to torment, but not kill men who have not the seal of God, which I believe to be symbolic of protection. This is said to occur for a period of five months.

When looking to Josephus' account of the war, we see nothing like this occurring at that time. From the beginning to the end of the war, there was killing throughout, whether by the factions or Romans. Throughout the war, especially the final five months of the siege of Jerusalem, the Romans devastated the land.

God bless---Twospirits

[TheForgiven]

Hey there Henry. Long time no see. It is great to see you again.

There isn't a problem with my position if you understand that these are metaphoric expressions not to be take literally. And knowing our previous debates, you do not hold to the literal position in this matter, and thus your concern with my position doesn't appear to be a logical rejection.

We know in the Old Testament that nouns such as trees, grass, and any green thing usually represents the Saints. If you recall the story of Moses, literal Locusts were sent to the Egyptians as a curse/punishment from God to punish the Egyptians who were oppressing the Hebrews. The Hebrews were not touched or harmed by the Locusts, but the Egyptians suffered great losses in consumables, i.e. food, supplies, wheat, grain, etc.

This same analogy is applied to the Jews who were oppressing the Christians; this we all know happened as was recorded in the book of Acts, and other sources. It's common knowledge that the Jews hated Christians, and sought out to arrest them, if not kill them. They of course used Roman authority to carry out their evil plots against the Church.

Thus, the Locusts were commanded not to harm any green thing, i.e. trees, grass, etc. This, as I've stated is a picture of God's protection upon those who had the "seal of God" on their foreheads; hence, the Saints. Those who did not have the seal of God were not part of the trees, grass, or green things; and they were also the ones not identified within the 144,000 sealed.

The question remains then, who were the Locusts? None other than the Roman legions, and its allies, sent to pillage the entire nation of Israel, and end the rebellion that had plagued the entire nation.

In conclusion, the Locusts were the Roman armies sent to end the conflict all throughout Israel. The Romans, like Locusts, consumed all of Israel's resources, resulting in starvation, famine, and disease. They were not to harm any Christians, seeing that many of them may have fled. Additionally, the Saints represented the trees, green things, etc, who were comprised of the 144,000 sealed. The rest who were not sealed were harmed by the Locusts (Romans). And thus, the vision makes perfect sense.

Hope all is well with you too.

God bless.

Joe