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Thread: Demons

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    I haven't heard this from anyone Charisma, except my heart/mind as I have been going along with this. I took a course in Levitical Law...and learned much from that...otherwise I have been taught entirely on my own. It has only been the past two years that I have began to communicate these things in any depth on the forum...and only the last year that I have found others of like mind. In discussing these things with them, my understanding has grown in leaps and bounds. I understand why you are feeling this way...but again...both you and Rick need to show me in scripture where you are disagreeing with me. Please show me scripturally...who the serpent is...and how it relates to satan.

    Ok, plain speech Kathryn. Here is the scripture you were asking for.
    Now, if you would kindly show us in scripture where the old serpent is Wisdom.



    Rev 12:9
    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    That's right, the old serpent called the Devil and Satan, deceiveth the whole world, starting with Eve.

    Oh, here is one more (double-witness ).

    Rev 20:2
    And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    Blessings,
    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

  2. #82
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    Demons

    Hi Kathryn,

    Thanks for your reply to me early today. I see that Rick has his own way of raising the same issues that bother me.

    You have asked me for scripture on certain points, and I could do that, if what you mean is, you are going to start using the Bible's language to express yourself, but I'm not prepared to quote verses which you then effectively take out of my hands and retranslate into the meta-language you use to express yourself.

    The apostle Paul never mentioned 'an uncircumcised High Priest'. Neither did Jesus. If that 'character' is in the Bible, then it is you who needs to show groups of verses (to cover different varieties of picture language), which tell me in the Bible's language what you have in your mind. This is no more than asking you to acknowledge that I speak a different language than you. You assert that your's is biblical too, but, it is very far from what God gave the prophets. Is there any need for it to be so removed from the ground of truth He has provided in Himself?

    I do think you could make it easier for yourself to communicate, if you wouldn't throw so many extra-biblical terms together in one post. If they (those terms you use) have any meaning at all, it is in how they express what God has already said in scripture.

    It is this connection I am asking for... nice and slow... because I will be comparing what you say with what God has said. God restricted Himself in His personal communication with people in the Bible, always showing Himself to understand the issues from both man's point of view, and His own, His own being far more important than ours.

    I will try to show from what I wrote earlier, that I think you missed some of my points - like, I didn't say God stopped speaking to Adam, is one of them.

    In summary, if you don't understand why I've posted a Bible verse, then I can explain that, if you tell me. We may find that you agree already, which would be great but if we don't, then I need you to reply with the Bible verses which say something different - not with your extra-biblical terminology. It will be good practice for both of us to become more familiar with God's way of thinking.
    Last edited by Charisma; 12-19-2011 at 11:38 AM.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Ok, plain speech Kathryn. Here is the scripture you were asking for.
    Now, if you would kindly show us in scripture where the old serpent is Wisdom.



    Rev 12:9
    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    That's right, the old serpent called the Devil and Satan, deceiveth the whole world, starting with Eve.

    Oh, here is one more (double-witness ).

    Rev 20:2
    And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    Blessings,
    Rick
    Hi Rick (and Charisma)....The key word here is OLD serpent. It is referring the the "old" serpent that tempts the "old" man within us, during the refining process. The OLD serpent is wisdom divided, and once it "eats" it tail , the tail becomes the HEAD.(Wisdom consummated. in a fully integrated spirit/soul/body)

    This concept is all through scripture and typology. However...I need to know how both you and Charisma see the process of division in the garden. Do you see Adam as the type of the masculine spirit from which the feminine soul, Eve , is divided from? If we can't establish this, there is no point in going much farther into typology until we can.

    Adam/Eve were given Dominion over the earth. They were the original type of the High Priest /Priestess, King/Queen of earth who administered God's will on earth. They were to "be fruitful and multiply". We have to see this first in the realm of spirit, before we can understand how it integrates with matter/earth. It is the LOINS of the mind, through which we are fruitful and multiply...and it is through the Loins of the Mind, that we initially take back Dominion over the earth (and the fowls of the air(vain imaginations) before it is worked out through the physical realm, in and through the 2nd Adam.

    So...if you could both let me know where your understanding is here, I will know where to begin to answer your questions. Does this sound ok to you both?

    All the best, Kathryn
    Last edited by kathryn; 12-19-2011 at 03:02 PM.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Beck,

    I donít see how the spirit is ever likened to the mind or thoughts of a man. The mind is where the thoughts take place and this is pretty much laid out in the Scriptures. The Scriptures talk often of the 'thoughts of the mind', not 'thoughts of the spirit'. The Scriptures also talk about the heart and mind being interchangeable but I have never seen where the mind and spirit are interchangeable.
    My thought was more toward Ephesians 4:23 "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind"



    We can look closer at the nature and character of these 'devils' next in the NT, if you like.
    Rick
    What have you to say about the parable that Jesus used of the casting out of demons in Matthew 12:43-45?
    Beck

  5. #85
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    Demons

    Hi Charisma,

    What would then be your understanding of 'fallen angels' as demons? I've come to the understanding that fallen angels should have been interpreted as fallen messengers. I discussed this Here.

    There seems to be a connection that these which are bond in darkness. Darkness is used in the spiritual sence of lack of knowledge or the rejection of that knowledge as the truth. As Paul used it that they should not be as the children of the darkness (night). In this way it rather seems to indicate that they had a choice to be the children of the light or the children of the darkness. At one point (Eph 5:8) Paul told them that they were once in darkness, but know are the light in the Lord. To have no fellowship with the unfaithful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
    Hi Beck,

    I've just read your short thread on Jude 1:6 and other verses in Jude and elsewhere, such as this which you said:
    I see them as those born from the line of Seth when men began to call upon the name of the Lord (Gen 4:26). They were not of the line of Cain, who was cursed by God and cast out to be a vagabond on the earth. The line of Seth, from whom Noah came, should have been messengers of God, preachers of righteousness, just as Noah was. But instead we find they left their natural habitation and made marriages with the unnatural or ungodly line of Cain. Thereby polluting the Godly seed, becoming wicked, violent and corrupt. This is why God sent the flood to destroy all flesh, and to begin again with the linage of Noah leading to the birth of Christ.
    For me, it is very simple to sort out the discussion which Christians seem to entertain themselves by, about men and angels; this way. This is the teaching of Jesus Christ. We do not need to guess, and there is not higher authority.

    Mark 12:23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife. 24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

    What we learn from this passage is, that angels are not given in marriage. That is a complete declaration of truth. It is not open to negotiation.

    Therefore (just in passing), in Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown. The same became men which were of old, men of renown.

    Regarding angels, we learn what they are in Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? See also Psalm 2.


    This is an important passage of scripture for those who have been taught (or want to believe) that Jesus was an angel, or, that He was not a complete man, or, that He was not completely God. The writer sets angels in one category and 'the Son' in another - higher than the angels. 'Let all the angels of God worship Him'.


    Regarding the placing of angels instead of people into the text in Ephesians, there is nothing in the context to justify that. Paul is writing to a church - a group of believers. From start to finish he anchors them in Christ, now part of the commonwealth of Israel with access by the Holy Spirit to the Father, and now separate from Gentiles who don't believe in Jesus. By the time Paul gets to chapter four he has prayed for them twice, (We don't pray for angels.) and begun to give them practical advice about how to comport themselves to the glory of Christ.

    In chapter five, v 9, he refers to the fruit of the Spirit. This is something that only those who are grafted into Christ, can bear. Only in chapter six, v 12, does he specifically mention non-human powers - and principalities (realms of domination by spiritual powers) - and the rulers of darkness of this world.

    Are these fallen angels (demons) bond in the bottomless pit of darkness until judgment day? Is that why the demons that where called Legion asked Jesus was it not that day?
    The people in Ephesians aren't demons, if that's what you're asking.

    Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? I want to comment on this, because we know that a third of the angels fell when Lucifer was cast out of heaven, presumably because they were following him, instead of worshipping God, and his tail dragged them down with him. So, they have become subject to him, by obeying his leadership, and he's 'the father of lies', according to Jesus.

    One of the strange things about the encounters of Jesus with these spirits, is that the spirits appear to be bound to tell the truth about Jesus. Nevertheless, when Jesus is met by Satan in the wilderness, Satan doesn't have that problem, he is as full of lies as ever, and twists the truth of reality in everything he says to Jesus, as he tries (unsuccessfully) to unhinge Him mentally.

    It is true that 'angel' means 'messenger', and this is a key meaning picked up at the end of Hebrews 1, 'Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?' v 14 So, we see that in general, angels are lower than both Jesus Christ, and people, although they are much stronger than us.

    God has permitted demons to afflict people who refuse to bow to Him in obedience, and sometimes He directs them, but usually, it's simply a spiritual law in action. The earth has been infested with demons (since before Adam was formed), and the whole globe parceled up (divided) under Satan's command, so that those who do not come under the shadow of God's wings, are vulnerable to them.

    In time past, the Law represented the shadow of His wings. Now, Jesus Christ Himself is our strength, if we abide in Him and walk in the light as He is in the light.
    Last edited by Charisma; 12-19-2011 at 04:35 PM.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Hi Rick....The key word here is OLD serpent. It is referring the the "old" serpent that tempts the "old" man within us, during the refining process. The OLD serpent is wisdom divided, and once it "eats" it tail , the tail becomes the HEAD.(Wisdom consummated. in a fully integrated spirit/soul/body)
    Yes, but doesn't "old" in Old serpent speak to chronology (time), as in old age? Where here is it identified with the Old Man?

    And in the Garden, when the old serpent, Devil, Satan was speaking with Eve, there was no existence of any "Old Man", yet.

    All you merely did just was say, "Old serpent as in Old man"? How do you link these two together. Why not Old serpent as in Old Testament?

    This concept is all through scripture and typology.
    What concept? Concept of Old? Concept of old serpent = old mind? When the old serpent was talking to Adam, it could not have been Adam's old mind (nature) yet, since he was pure and innocent. So help me here, Kathryn.

    However...I need to know how both you and Charisma see the process of division in the garden.
    Division? I see the concept of Separation. Is that what you mean by Division. Charisma has a point Kathryn that you need to use the language of the Bible. Does your concept of Division correlate with the Bible's concept of Separation?


    Do you see Adam as the type of the masculine spirit from which the feminine soul, Eve , is divided from? If we can't establish this, there is no point in going much farther into typology until we can.
    Ok look, I see Adam as a MAN and Eve as a WOMAN. God is not trying to be tricky here. Adam is not a type of masculine spirit, he is a man. Eve is a woman. One is masculine and one is feminine. God made them man and woman. I thought you said "spirit" is "thought", so how could Adam, who is a man be a type of masculine thought (same for Eve).

    I know about basic types such as Moses and Joseph are types of Christ. Even the Ark is a type of Christ.

    But how is a man (Adam) a type of (himself) the masculine spirit? Typology is meant to bring forth a different meaning or type, not the same thing.

    Adam is masculine, is man, therefore already has a masculine soul. What do you mean he is a type of a masculine spirit?

    Jesus is not a type of a spirit of Jesus. He is JESUS. Adam is Man, he is masculine. So, you lost me there, but I sense that is important for you to introduce the concept of "masculine spirit" and this is how you are doing it.

    Adam/Eve were given Dominion over the earth.
    Agreed!

    They were the original type of the High Priest /Priestess, King/Queen of earth who administered God's will on earth.
    I don't see any Biblical concept of High Priestess in the Bible (in God's economy) so how can Eve be a type of that? In Christ, there is neither male nor female and we are all Priests unto our God.

    They were to "be fruitful and multiply". We have to see this first in the realm of spirit, before we can understand how it integrates with matter/earth. It is the LOINS of the mind, through which we are fruitful and multiply...and it is through the Loins of the Mind, that we initially take back Dominion over the earth (and the fowls of the air(vain imaginations) before it is worked out through the physical realm, in and through the 2nd Adam.

    So...if you could both let me know where your understanding is here, I will know where to begin to answer your questions. Does this sound ok to you both?

    All the best, Kathryn
    First of all, "girding up the loins of the mind" means to strenghthen your mind, your actual mind against the onslaughts of Satan. So, how are you using "LOINS of the mind" in this instance?

    To be fruitful and multiply first and foremost was meant for Adam and Eve to procreate and fill the earth with physical offspring. Spiritually speaking, yes, it means to be fruitful in the Spirit and to make disciples for Christ.

    How do we take back dominion of the earth through the Loins of the Mind? And what does "taking back dominion OVER the earth" mean to you? What does that look like?

    Jesus said the "fowls of the air" are not imaginations but the Wicked One (See Parable of the Sower).

    Asking questions seems to be working for you and me. I know this will be a slow process and don't get frustrated, but every word that someone speaks or writes I listen or read very closely and I don't want to assume that I know what your are saying, so I will ask for clarification.

    By the way, good job on using the quotes!! I think you've got it.

    Best to you, Kathryn and I look forward to your answers.
    Rick
    Last edited by heb13-13; 12-19-2011 at 04:33 PM.

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

  7. #87
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    Demons

    Hi Beck, Rick and Kathryn,

    Yes, but doesn't "old" in Old serpent speak to chronology (time), as in old age? Where here is it identified with the Old Man?

    And in the Garden, when the old serpent, Devil, Satan was speaking with Eve, there was no existence of any "Old Man", yet.

    All you merely did just was say, "Old serpent as in Old man"? How do you link these two together. Why not Old serpent as in Old Testament?
    Kathryn touched on this earlier, in a mention of the prince of the power of the air, but I would like to expand further, although the only justification for what I'm about to say is, that if there was a place to go, Satan would have gone there. I believe he was cast out of heaven before the foundation of the earth (at least), but, being thus exiled, he has a special interest in the earth when it was created, because God placed man there - a creature in His own image. Otherwise, Satan could have gone anywhere else in the universe - but, he didn't.

    He is the original prehistoric monster, and that alone qualifies him as 'old'.

    We didn't have an 'old man', until a new man had become available - rather like the Old Covenant only becoming 'old', when the New Covenant had arrived.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  8. #88
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    Demons

    Hi Kathryn,

    I don't know if my reply to this question will arrive before or after Rick's, but we'll all know what the other thinks soon enough!

    Do you see Adam as the type of the masculine spirit from which the feminine soul, Eve , is divided from? If we can't establish this, there is no point in going much farther into typology until we can.
    First, I want to point out that your second sentence is based on the false premise that unless 'we' can see things the way you 'see' them, we cannot proceed further in the discussion.

    What is to prevent you, Kathryn, seeing things the way Rick and I see them? And what if, there is more consistency in the way we see them?

    The Holy Spirit says 'Amen', or, He doesn't say 'Amen', and that is part of His function. If there is no truth in the words coming forth - not just from you, but from any poster, the Holy Spirit cannot witness to it.

    I do agree that it's possible to make little bits of the Bible say things they don't, especially if we cut out huge chunks so as to be left with a particular doctrinal recipe. But, we should know better than that, that God is not impressed when we treat His word that way, and we should know HIM better than that, that He has set His word above His name, and it will endure for ever. It is we who have to find out what He's saying.

    When debz arrived on BWF, and posted in the thread about about Male Bias in the Bible, I agreed with her post. I didn't carry on reading the thread though, so I can only vouch for her first post (which was about Adam and Eve).

    The best rule for understanding scripture is in Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning, God.

    If we begin there, it is possible to get through the whole book with less rather than more misunderstanding.

    So, Elohiym made Adam in His own image - male and female created He them. The 'model' for Adam, was the Son of God - the One who would become a perfect Man, even though when He did come, Paul dubs Him the last Adam. But that's because of the changes which took place in Adam because of the fall, and that afterwards, instead of bearing children in God's likeness, he bore children in his own likeness.

    So, are you suggesting that Adam didn't have a soul? That only Eve had a soul? And that Eve didn't have a spirit? Or, something else?

    Anyway, which verses in the Bible suggest what you suggested above?
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    My thought was more toward Ephesians 4:23 "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind"

    What have you to say about the parable that Jesus used of the casting out of demons in Matthew 12:43-45?
    Hi Beck,


    Demons are personalities -- Mark 1:25. "And Jesus rebuked him (the demon) and said (to the demon), Hold thy peace and come out of him." The following pronouns, indicating personality, are used when applied to demons: he, him, us, we, they, them, thou, my. These words refer, not to influences, but to personalities.

    Demons have the sense of ownership. -- "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man he walketh through dry places seeking rest and finding none he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out." My house indicates the demon's sense of ownership which he was loath to give up though he had been cast out. Demons are loath to give up territory which they have conquered and occupied. The momentum of possession is strong in their consciousness.

    Strategy. -- "I will return to my house whence I came out." And when he returns he finds a surprise. His former house is cleansed, swept and garnished, and alone he is conscious of inability to re-enter but, nothing daunted, he thinks on the desirability of reinforcements. "Then goeth he and taketh to him seven other spirits" (the reinforcements needed on the line of his attack) "more wicked than himself." The demon is successful. "And they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first." Luke 11:24-26. Note the intelligence the demon exhibits, the reasoning, the wise planning of his counter attack, the going for reinforcements, the recognition of his inability alone to re-enter, the calculation of how many reinforcements would be needed to successfully re-enter, the breaking down of the man's defenses, and the successful re-embodiment in the demon's former home, the man's heart.

    Will Power. -- Strong will power is ascribed to the demons in the above narrative: "I will return" to my house. There is such persistency of will power that all obstacles are carried before it. The strong, stubborn self-will that will not give up, even when clearly shown to be in error, is demon inspired.

    Demons are represented in the gospels as having the power of speech, "And the unclean spirits when they saw Him, fell down before Him and cried, saying, Thou art the son of God." They cried, that is, the demons use the voice of the one possessed.

    This same reference gives them the power of sights: "And when they saw Him." The philosophy of it we can not explain. We believe the record. But there is no more difficulty in believing that demons can see, than believing that the eyes of the Lord, who is without body or parts, who is a Spirit, can run to and fro through the earth beholding the evil and the good: "Thou God seest me." The fact is, Jesus addressed demons as seeing, hearing, intelligent personalities, with powers of judgment, discrimination and memory, like any other personality. He charged the demons not to make him known. To fulfill such a charge they must be intelligent personalities, with powers of mind and communication. Demons are not mere Satanic influences. They have all the characteristics attributed to them that go with personality. The replies of the demons to Jesus were couched in intelligent language. Matt. 8:29.

    Demons have sensibilities of fear: "And they besought Him that He would not command them to go out into the deep." There is shrinking fear denoted here on the part of the demon. Whether they dreaded the casting out into the deep or just the fact of being exorcised, or cast out, is not said. I rather think they dreaded being disembodied, losing their home or place of refuge or rest in the man indwelt because in the conversations held between Jesus and the demons frequently they reveal the dread or fear of disembodiment, terming it "tormenting us before our time." They preferred embodiment even in the lower animals, the swine, to being cast out to roam in the dry places.

    Demons Have Desire. -- So the devils besought him saying, "If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine." Matt. 8:31. Here we have definite place of abode. "The Scriptures reveal other characteristics of demons as their intelligent power of decision, Matt. 12:44, their power of agreement with other spirits, their degree of wickedness, Matt. 12:45; their power of rage, Matt. 8:28, their strength. Mark 5:4, their ability to possess a human being either as one (Mark 1 :26), or a thousand (Mark 5:9), their use of a human being either as their medium for divining the future (Acts 16:16) or as a great miracle worker by their power." This last reference lets light on the apparent power in Christian Science and Spiritism, and all fake healings and manifestations.

    Destructiveness
    The demon teareth him, throweth him into the fire, and into the water and driveth into violent, unreasonable rage (it may perchance be about some very trifling matter). The Garadene illustrates the destructiveness of evil spirits. He was forced to lacerate himself. Again, demons lack the sense of decency and inspire their victim to go nude, to wear no clothes. This fact may throw some light on nudity in modern dress and styles, as also the nudity in so-called high art, which is low art. Demons are unclean and lustful. Christ calls them "foul spirits," "unclean spirits." Thus they work in the realm of lust.

    http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/...n/DALindex.htm

    All the best,
    Rick
    Last edited by heb13-13; 12-19-2011 at 05:41 PM.

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Yes, but doesn't "old" in Old serpent speak to chronology (time), as in old age? Where here is it identified with the Old Man?

    Hi Rick..I'm really sorry to be inserting this in the post rather than the quotes, but I simply don't have the time right now to try to figure it out. From what you've written in your post, I'm actually wondering if maybe we should leave this until after Christmas when there's more time to devote to it. We have some huge fundamental differences here.

    And in the Garden, when the old serpent, Devil, Satan was speaking with Eve, there was no existence of any "Old Man", yet.

    In order to understand our identity in the 2nd Adam...or the NEW man, we have to look at the "old" 1st Adam. This is what I mean by "old".

    All you merely did just was say, "Old serpent as in Old man"? How do you link these two together. Why not Old serpent as in Old Testament?I know, sorry. My priority in the post, was finding out where you stood with the Adam/Eve/spirit/soul concept. It wasn't to explain the serpent. As I said...this is going to take some time...and unfortunately...I don't have much of it at the moment.



    What concept? Concept of Old? Concept of old serpent = old mind? When the old serpent was talking to Adam, it could not have been Adam's old mind (nature) yet, since he was pure and innocent. So help me here, Kathryn.
    Adam was innocent...but he wasn't purified. He had a corruptible heart. The heart is an aspect of the mind. There are 3 stages to redemption. Adam was in day 1.


    Division? I see the concept of Separation. Is that what you mean by Division. Charisma has a point Kathryn that you need to use the language of the Bible. Does your concept of Division correlate with the Bible's concept of Separation?

    Ok..if you like separation better , that works for me. The whole process of cutting Covenant is seen in the passing of the light through ONE animal. If we want to understand how the process of redemption moves in us, through the Old Covenant...into the New...the 1st Adam to the 2nd...and old man to new..we need to understand what this means. We see this division or separation beginning in the Genesis account, when Eve is taken from the rib of Adam. If you look at the word for "side" in the Holy Place..or soul realm...it is "rib". These are all spiritual concepts that we must understand before we can go anywhere with the study of satan/demons. As I said...I think it best that we leave it for after Christmas. Once you begin to see that it is all laid out on a grid of 3, corresponding to our triune nature...spirit, soul, body...it becomes much clearer. It's just establishing the grid that takes a bit of time and the plummet has to begin in the Law to see what was fulfilled and how.




    Ok look, I see Adam as a MAN and Eve as a WOMAN. God is not trying to be tricky here.

    I beg to differ. He loves to conceal things. It is part of Glorification. He's one Wascally Wabbit

    Adam is not a type of masculine spirit, he is a man. Eve is a woman. One is masculine and one is feminine. God made them man and woman. I thought you said "spirit" is "thought", so how could Adam, who is a man be a type of masculine thought (same for Eve).

    Adam and Eve are the 1st type of the Bridegroom/High Priest and Bride who "rule and reign" . (you will be Kings and Priests) Dominion means to reign AND tread down. What are we treading down?

    I know about basic types such as Moses and Joseph are types of Christ. Even the Ark is a type of Christ.

    Yes...but there is more to it. The ark contained the rod/penis...the seed/like coriander , and the two TESTES/stones...Testimony. It sat in the "womb" of the Temple(feminine).

    But how is a man (Adam) a type of (himself) the masculine spirit? We are spirit beings in earthen vessels. It is the "earthen vessels" that God uses in type and shadowTypology is meant to bring forth a different meaning or type, not the same thing.Typology is self confirming. All types following the primary type in the law (where the plummet is laid) will compliment and deepen the meaning throughout scripture. They will also reveal the 3 stages of redemption. The heart/spirit is masculine...which is why it says the heart must be circumcised...and the mind "renewed". This hails back to the High Priest who had to be circumcised to enter the Holy of Holies on Atonement.

    Adam is masculine, is man, therefore already has a masculine soul. What do you mean he is a type of a masculine spirit?

    The Temple is feminine Rick. It is entered by the circumcised masculine "heart"/spirit.

    Jesus is not a type of a spirit of Jesus. He is JESUS. Adam is Man, he is masculine.Jesus walked in the power of the Double Witness. He only did what He saw His Father do. He represented the circumcised heart consummated with the renewed mind/virgin subconcious. He walked in Gods image..male/female. So, you lost me there, but I sense that is important for you to introduce the concept of "masculine spirit" and this is how you are doing it.



    Agreed!



    I don't see any Biblical concept of High Priestess in the Bible (in God's economy) so how can Eve be a type of that?Eve is the 1st type of the Jerusalem/mother/bride. In Christ, there is neither male nor female and we are all Priests unto our God.

    that simply means full integration...not neutered; no division between the two. They are One.



    First of all, "girding up the loins of the mind" means to strenghthen your mind, your actual mind against the onslaughts of Satan. So, how are you using "LOINS of the mind" in this instance?

    I mean Loins as the generative part. The part that is able to give Life (birth) . This is in temple typology as well.

    To be fruitful and multiply first and foremost was meant for Adam and Eve to procreate and fill the earth with physical offspring. Spiritually speaking, yes, it means to be fruitful in the Spirit and to make disciples for Christ.

    How do we take back dominion of the earth through the Loins of the Mind? And what does "taking back dominion OVER the earth" mean to you? What does that look like?

    coming into full agreement with the Mind of Christ. Casting down the vain imaginations taking them captive to the obedience of Christ. This is all speaking of the mind and thoughts/spirit. Dominion also carries the connotation of "scraping out". All of the elements in the Temple...the altar (heart) staves, pipes to the bowl of the candlestick, all had to be hollow. This is the emptying of ourselves (of the vain imaginations.

    Jesus said the "fowls of the air" are not imaginations but the Wicked One (See Parable of the Sower).
    Yes...same thing. Tell me Rick...what does this verse mean to you: "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me. The rod became the serpent when it was lifted up. What is your understanding of this? How do you reconcile the serpent/son of God ?

    Asking questions seems to be working for you and me. I know this will be a slow process and don't get frustrated, but every word that someone speaks or writes I listen or read very closely and I don't want to assume that I know what your are saying, so I will ask for clarification.

    I really appreciate this Rick. Again..sorry about the quotes.

    By the way, good job on using the quotes!! I think you've got it. I didn't do anything!

    Best to you, Kathryn and I look forward to your answers.Bless you Bro!
    Rick

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