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Thread: Demons

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Hi Rose, I'm not sure if there is any differences, but maybe in the way it was written. The Gospel the Kingdom message is delivered through parables by Jesus. I'm also considering that even those events not label as parable may well be written as a story to relay the Kingdom message by the four synoptic Gospels.
    As I know of Paul never used the method of story telling to explain the Kingdom of God, but his writing do employ metaphors and symbolic meaning.

    You would think that there was an epidemic of demon possessions, but soon there was very little to none mentioned by Paul. That another reason to think that there is more that what can be read in those passages. For I know that 'sickness' is what Jesus said that he was the doctor to cure the sick and heal the broken hearted (Mark 2:17) and (Luke 4:18). Here Jesus tells us whom the sick where...They were those that are spiritual sick.

    17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    We can see the spiritual nature of these that are sick and dead throughout scriptures. I'm thinking the same for those possessed by evil spirit (demons) and the lepers.

    How else would the first century saint tell of the life times of Jesus, but by parables? A story written in prose or verse.
    Hi Beck

    Doesn't it seem a bit odd for Jesus to say that he came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance, when it says there is none who are righteous?
    Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
    Luke 5:23 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    Rom. 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


    Rose
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Beck

    Doesn't it seem a bit odd for Jesus to say that he came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance, when it says there is none who are righteous?
    Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
    Luke 5:23 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    Rom. 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


    Rose
    Yes it is odd in a sence that the Phraisees and Sadducees thought that they were righteous. Jesus wasn't calling them to repent. It is those doctrines of men and their leaven that have infected 'possessed' the weak and the poor. Jesus came to these to heal and to cast out those evil spirits.

    John in Revelation spoke of the Harlot that filled her cup up with abominations and filthiness of her fornication. Whom the kings of the earth have committed forincation, and made drunk with the wine of her forination. These are reserved for damnation.
    Beck

  3. #43
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    Demons

    Hi all participants and readers,

    I'm not managing to keep up with this thread fully, but want to comment (Beck) on this short summary you made:
    So we would have a general belief that these are true literal events that Jesus and his disciples casted out evil spirits. We also have some that believe that these events describe those of different types of psychological disorders. While I somewhat believe these events describe a parable of sort. Here we have at least three ways of interperting those passages that speak of demon possession.
    First, I am not suggesting that demons and psychological pain are the same thing. If my post gave this impression, please give me the quote which misled you. My point is that they are, or may be, connected in those who have chemical imbalances in the brain.

    Demons themselves cause conflict for the physical body, which the person will try to deal with by various means. One way they might try, is willpower, to stop them co-operating with demonically stimulated desires. Another way, may be to go along with the demon, believing (not that there is a demon at work, but) that the feelings they are having are normal, or, cannot be avoided, even though these feelings when acted out, make them socially less companionable - or even, unable to take part in normal social interaction. There are many subtleties to demonic influence. A person need not be 'possessed' by a demon, to have the life made miserable.


    My comment on your parable theory, is that it suits all those people who don't want to believe demons are real, and, it understates the power of demons to ruin a life, and, it avoids the question of sin and sinning, when those are either the cause of another's pain, or, the outcome of being unable to control a demon.

    It is notable that Jesus mentioned sin to certain people when He was healing them, but not to anyone out of whom He was casting a demon. This speaks to the inability of the demon's victim to resist - say, when a demon attacks a child's life - the predatory nature of demons in general - and, that there was no-one alive at that time who could shift a demon out of a person's life, apart from Jesus and those to whom He gave the authority.

    So, back to the parable idea. Let's say that to have a demon is equivalent to having a stone in one's shoe which one cannot remove. Observers see one is limping. Kind people offer to help. The sufferer (with the stone in his shoe) is grateful. Gradually, needing to be helped becomes a lifestyle. The person develops a strange way of walking which is the most comfortable they can do, but, it gives them a back problem, and their muscles have to compensate even further. No-one knows that the reason they can't walk normally, is a stone in their shoe, but the parable can be made, using the humility of the person who has to ask for help, and the benificence of those who give up time and money to be helpful to the disabled person. Great story! Everyone can learn about the importance of altruism.

    Then Jesus comes along and says, 'Take off your shoe and give it to me'. He shakes the stone out of the shoe and gives it back to the person. 'Now, walk straight!' He instructs, and to everyone's amazement, the person can't hobble any more, and doesn't need help any more. Wow!

    What happened to the parable? It was a kind of lie, and, most certainly, from the point of view of the person now walking straight, it was a second best solution, because now, the person is genuinely free from the cause of the disablement.


    I strongly believe that Jesus didn't abuse the power of words. (He Himself is 'the Word'. He understood words better than any of us.) When He told a parable, it was a parable with an inescapable spiritual truth embedded in it. When He healed, the sick person became well. When He told a demon to leave, the demon obeyed.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Then Jesus comes along and says, 'Take off your shoe and give it to me'. He shakes the stone out of the shoe and gives it back to the person. 'Now, walk straight!' He instructs, and to everyone's amazement, the person can't hobble any more, and doesn't need help any more. Wow!

    What happened to the parable? It was a kind of lie, and, most certainly, from the point of view of the person now walking straight, it was a second best solution, because now, the person is genuinely free from the cause of the disablement.


    I strongly believe that Jesus didn't abuse the power of words. (He Himself is 'the Word'. He understood words better than any of us.) When He told a parable, it was a parable with an inescapable spiritual truth embedded in it. When He healed, the sick person became well. When He told a demon to leave, the demon obeyed.
    Hi Charisma,

    Very well stated. I do agree.

    Also, wanted to say to Beck that Jesus was calling the Pharisees to repentance. However, He had to use a little different way of communicating to them (religious hypocrites). They did not think they needed anything. Those that are liars and following the Father of lies, will always think that Jesus is naive and stupid. This is the fruit of religious pride.

    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi all participants and readers,

    I'm not managing to keep up with this thread fully, but want to comment (Beck) on this short summary you made:
    First, I am not suggesting that demons and psychological pain are the same thing. If my post gave this impression, please give me the quote which misled you. My point is that they are, or may be, connected in those who have chemical imbalances in the brain.
    Hi Charisma,

    Understood thanks for clarifying.


    My comment on your parable theory, is that it suits all those people who don't want to believe demons are real, and, it understates the power of demons to ruin a life, and, it avoids the question of sin and sinning, when those are either the cause of another's pain, or, the outcome of being unable to control a demon.

    I strongly believe that Jesus didn't abuse the power of words. (He Himself is 'the Word'. He understood words better than any of us.) When He told a parable, it was a parable with an inescapable spiritual truth embedded in it. When He healed, the sick person became well. When He told a demon to leave, the demon obeyed.
    As you know some of his parables he didn't come out and say it was a parable. Mark 4:33-34 indicates that Jesus always spoke in parables when having a multitude of people around him and when his disciples were alone with him he would expound all things unto them.

    We also would have to determine whither he was speaking of sickness as in the case of sinners that need to repent.(Mark 2:17) I'm assuming the same for lepers and demons (evil spirits).

    My thought is just as the sheep and goats are a metaphor of the righteous and unrighteous nations that would be the case as well for hunger, thirsty, stranger, naked, sick, and in prison.


    Metaphor's

    Hunger: Man shall not live by bread alone(Matthew 4:4), I am the Bread of Life(John 6:35), Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matthew 5:6).

    Thirsty: Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matthew 5:6), But those who drink the water I give will never be thirsty again (John 4:14)

    Stranger: Go ye to the loss sheep of Israel (Matthew 10:6) Go ye to the highways and hedges and compel to come in, that my house maybe filled (Luke 14:23)

    Naked: Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth and keepeth his garments lest he walk naked and they see his shame (Rev.16:15),...white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed and the shame of they nakedness do not appear(Rev.3:18)

    Sick: They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick (Matthew 9:12), 23Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? 24But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.(Luke 23-24)

    Prison: But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.(Gal.3:22), Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.(Gal.3:23)
    Last edited by Beck; 12-07-2011 at 02:35 PM.
    Beck

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Hi Charisma,

    Understood thanks for clarifying.




    As you know some of his parables he didn't come out and say it was a parable. Mark 4:33-34 indicates that Jesus always spoke in parables when having a multitude of people around him and when his disciples were alone with him he would expound all things unto them.

    We also would have to determine whither he was speaking of sickness as in the case of sinners that need to repent.(Mark 2:17) I'm assuming the same for lepers and demons (evil spirits).

    My thought is just as the sheep and goats are a metaphor of the righteous and unrighteous nations that would be the case as well for hunger, thirsty, stranger, naked, sick, and in prison.


    Metaphor's

    Hunger: Man shall not live by bread alone(Matthew 4:4), I am the Bread of Life(John 6:35), Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matthew 5:6).

    Thirsty: Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matthew 5:6), But those who drink the water I give will never be thirsty again (John 4:14)

    Stranger: Go ye to the loss sheep of Israel (Matthew 10:6) Go ye to the highways and hedges and compel to come in, that my house maybe filled (Luke 14:23)

    Naked: Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth and keepeth his garments lest he walk naked and they see his shame (Rev.16:15),...white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed and the shame of they nakedness do not appear(Rev.3:18)

    Sick: They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick (Matthew 9:12), 23Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? 24But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.(Luke 23-24)

    Prison: But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.(Gal.3:22), Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.(Gal.3:23)
    Hi Beck,

    I think people back then knew the difference between when Jesus was telling a story (parable) and when He was taking action.

    When you tell a story you don't expect people to say, "Wow, with power He commands the demons". No, you usually expect them to say what they did say, "What do you mean...Can you explain that to us.....Why do you speak in parables....?" But when He took action and delivered people from the powers of darkness, you did not hear anyone say, "Why do you speak in parables?"

    All the best,
    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Beck,

    I think people back then knew the difference between when Jesus was telling a story (parable) and when He was taking action.

    When you tell a story you don't expect people to say, "Wow, with power He commands the demons". No, you usually expect them to say what they did say, "What do you mean...Can you explain that to us.....Why do you speak in parables....?" But when He took action and delivered people from the powers of darkness, you did not hear anyone say, "Why do you speak in parables?"

    All the best,
    Rick
    The problem is how can we tell the difference? Each author of the Gospels had their on agenda. Matthew wrote his story of Jesus as to show the Messiah, likewise Mark the story of Jesus as the Servant...etc each having their own. What is there to say that in their storytelling of Jesus that they themselves didn't employ parables, metaphor's in literature.

    Jesus often said "To him who have a ear to hear" meaning that there was some that could not hear (understand) what he was saying as the deaf and dumb. Jesus said he came to those blind so that they might see. And this is after Jesus healed a man that was blind, the Pharisees asked "Are we blind also?"



    John 9:39-41
    39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
    40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
    41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


    Unlike Isaiah 35:5-10 prophesy where Mark give references of the dumb shall speak and deaf ears openned. Should we also read the remaining of Isaiah as literal or figurative?


    5 Then will the eyes of the blind be opened
    and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
    6 Then will the lame leap like a deer,
    and the mute tongue shout for joy.
    Water will gush forth in the wilderness
    and streams in the desert.
    7 The burning sand will become a pool,
    the thirsty ground bubbling springs.
    In the haunts where jackals once lay,
    grass and reeds and papyrus will grow.

    8 And a highway will be there;
    it will be called the Way of Holiness;
    it will be for those who walk on that Way.
    The unclean will not journey on it;
    wicked fools will not go about on it.
    9 No lion will be there,
    nor any ravenous beast;
    they will not be found there.
    But only the redeemed will walk there,
    10 and those the LORD has rescued will return.
    They will enter Zion with singing;
    everlasting joy will crown their heads.
    Gladness and joy will overtake them,
    and sorrow and sighing will flee away.
    Beck

  8. #48
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    Demons

    I'm assuming the same for lepers and demons (evil spirits).
    Dear Beck,

    There is no need to assume anything.

    What you ought to do is patiently read the gospels making a note of every specific healing, every specific casting out of a demon, and every specific 'other', and then compare the terms on which Jesus carried out each kind. The apostles were making mental notes the whole time they were watching Him. They knew when they didn't understand (as Rick said) because then, they asked Him to explain.

    By the time He sent out the seventy, they knew exactly what to do. If you read all the gospels thoroughly and slowly, you too would have known what to do if you were obeying Jesus' instructions. This is not rocket science. You have sufficient intelligence to read all these details for yourself.

    What you mustn't do (for God) is to fill in what you think are, (or must be) gaps ,left by the gospel writers.

    If God has not put it in scripture already, you don't have any God-given right to make up what you think is missing. That includes 'assume' anything.


    I can almost guarantee that if you do this exercise properly, you will be able to shelve at least one or two long-held doctrines, because you will find nothing in the Bible to support them - either in the OT or the NT. If I'm wrong, please tell me three of the doctrines you did not have to shelve.

    Lord willing, I'll be here when you're ready to share your findings.


    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Dear Beck,

    There is no need to assume anything.

    What you ought to do is patiently read the gospels making a note of every specific healing, every specific casting out of a demon, and every specific 'other', and then compare the terms on which Jesus carried out each kind. The apostles were making mental notes the whole time they were watching Him. They knew when they didn't understand (as Rick said) because then, they asked Him to explain.
    I understand we read the bible very differently. I see the writers expressing the life of Jesus in allegorical terms. Much the same way it was written of the Messiah to heal the broken hearted (sick) to open the blinded eyes (revelation) and to free the captives (in prison, in bondage).


    "The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, Because He did anoint me; To proclaim good news to the poor, Sent me to heal the broken of heart, To proclaim to captives deliverance, And to blind receiving of sight, To send away the bruised with deliverance" (Luke 4:18 YLT)

    The healing, setting free, receving of sight by the blind and deliverance all have to do with the old covenant and not the physical flesh of man, but the spirit and soul of man.
    Beck

  10. #50
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    Demons

    Hi Beck,

    Forgive me, but I have no idea why you think the portion of Isaiah which Jesus read out at the start of His ministry, was anything other than part of the proclamation of the New Covenant.

    I understand we read the bible very differently. I see the writers expressing the life of Jesus in allegorical terms. Much the same way it was written of the Messiah to heal the broken hearted (sick) to open the blinded eyes (revelation) and to free the captives (in prison, in bondage).


    "The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, Because He did anoint me; To proclaim good news to the poor, Sent me to heal the broken of heart, To proclaim to captives deliverance, And to blind receiving of sight, To send away the bruised with deliverance" (Luke 4:18 YLT)
    The healing, setting free, receving of sight by the blind and deliverance all have to do with the old covenant and not the physical flesh of man, but the spirit and soul of man.
    For instance, what is allegorical about Jesus being nailed to a cross?

    Please tell me?
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

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