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Thread: Demons

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    I'm not sure you addressed what I said in my last post concerning how I view this possession and exorcism.

    I said:


    It would seem to me that in these exorcism of demons is more toward breaking the bonds of sin that they are possessed by for instance the demon spirit of alcohol, demon spirit of smoking. These have a physical hold upon a person and Jesus told his desciples that some of these demons can't be casted out only by prayer and fasting. Well why fasting? That would indicate that the person by fasting would gain control of their own body.

    So in cases like Mark 5 you would think that Jesus would have gotten into trouble for casting out the demons of 'Legions' into the swine and them drowing in the sea. That poor herdman of those swine lost allot of his property and livelihood or should we understand it's only a parable of sorts to portray the bondage of sin?
    Hi Beck,

    Sorry, I did not mean to overlook your question. I believe that every place in the NT where Jesus cast out a demon...He cast out a demon. Some situations take extended and intense spiritual warfare. If you get the chance and would like to read a very enlightening encounter with the powers of darkness by someone who had absolutely no experience or knowledge of them, then you might want to read the The Awakening.

    When Blumhardt, a 19th-century pastor from the Black Forest, agreed to counsel a tormented woman in his parish, all hell broke loose - literally. But that was only the beginning of the drama that ensued. Zuendel's account, available here in English for the first time, provides a rare glimpse into how the eternal fight between the forces of good and evil plays itself out in the lives of the most ordinary men and women. More than that, it reminds us that those forces still surround us today, whether we are awake to them or not. Beginning in the fall of 1841, Blumhardt was drawn into a spiritual struggle, which he referred to for the rest of his life as "the fight." At first he tried to keep a cautious distance from it, but it soon became obvious that he would not be able to stay uninvolved.
    Gottliebin Dittus, a young woman from a pious Möttlingen family who had once been Pastor Barth's favorite pupil, was regarded in her village as a "God-fearing" member of the parish. At the same time she was known, ever since her childhood, to have suffered recurring nervous disorders and various other maladies, including inexplicable attacks not unlike epileptic seizures.

    Repulsed by her peculiar behavior, Blumhardt kept his distance from her. He would come when summoned during her worst attacks, but he went reluctantly, feeling that her case was no task for him as a pastor. Village physician Dr. Späth, on the other hand, argued that Gottliebin's disorders were beyond the scope of his medical knowledge, if not symptomatic of supernatural forces at work. It was on this account that Blumhardt finally agreed to observe the woman.

    Read more here: http://www.plough.com/ebooks/awakening.html

    Remember also, that when Jesus did one on one battle with Satan in the wilderness, He was on a 40 day fast. Fasting weakens the flesh and strenghthens the spirit.

    Why did Jesus say, "This kind cometh not out but by prayer and fasting"?

    Isaiah helps us to answer that:

    "Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?"Isa 58:6

    Regarding the mentally ill, let me tell you a personal story.

    In 1989, a brother from Nepal came and stayed with me. His name was Prem Pradhan. He was a former Gurkha (mercenary soldier) that fought for the British in WWII. Towards the end of the war he was flying planes and his was shot down. He was rescued by native villagers and taken care of for the remainder of the war. He returned to Nepal and heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ via a street preacher in India. Prem had gone over the border of Nepal into India and heard a man (Bahkt Singh) preaching the gospel. Prem was converted to Christianity and went back to Nepal. Jumping ahead now, in Nepal it is illegal to share your faith (if it is not Hinuism), to convert someone or baptise them. The penalty is 1 year in jail for sharing your faith, 3 years for converting someone to another religion besides Hinduism and 6 years for baptizing someone into another faith. Prem broke all 3 of these laws and spent 10 years in jail. But not just 10 years in 1 jail, 10 years in 14 different jails. Prem told me that they put him in a 6' by 8' foot cell and shackled his ankle. I remember seeing his ankle and myself and some friends took him to an orthopedic specialist to look at his ankle and his knee (his knee was giving him problems, too). He was fitted with a prosthetic device that helped him greatly.

    Back to Prem's prison cell. The authorities used to throw dead bodies into his cell as a holding place until they could dispose of them. Lice had eaten his underwear and the stench was overcomingly horrible. The authorities hoped that he would die. They withheld food from him, but his guards used to slip food to Prem. The guards would here him talking to Jesus and ask him who he was talking to and he would say, "Jesus". They would say "no one is in there" and Prem just would tell them "you can't see him that way". His guards started getting saved one by one. Each new guard would become a Christian. Prem was moved from prison to prison because inmates including guards continued to become Christians. So, one time, they moved Prem to a prison that only had mentally ill people. In Nepal at that time there were no facilities for the "mentally ill" or "deranged". They just put those kind of people into prison.

    Prem was distraught because he could not communicate with anyone. He was standing in the courtyard of the prison one day and he says the Lord spoke to him and pointed a man out to Prem. He was directly across the courtyard from him. He says that he prayed and fasted for this man everyday for a month and then one day, he just walked over to him and cast demons out of him in Jesus name. The man immediately came into his right mind. He was shortly released because there was no reason anymore to keep him in jail. Prem continued to do this.

    When Prem was eventually released from his 3rd time in jail he had spent 10 years in 14 different jails. He used to hike all over Nepal and cross the Himalayas every summer. He would sleep 18 feet high in trees at night to keep away from tigers. Prem had a huge burden for the people of Nepal and wanted to reach everyone but was frustrated and disappointed that he could not.

    Remember the other day in another thread, Richard was talking about "We'll see"?

    Here it is.
    There's no way for us to know what will come "in the long run" until we get there. Your comment reminds me the ancient Buddhist wisdom. There was a man who had a son. One day the son found a wild horse and was able to capture it and bring it home. The man's neighbor said "How fortunate!" The man said "We'll see." Then one day his son fell the horse he fell off the horse and broke his arm so bad it had to be amputated. The neighbor said "How unfortunate! If only your son had not found that horse!" The man said "We'll see." Then there was war and all the young men in the village were drafted and died in battle except the man's son because of his missing arm. The neighbor said "How fortunate!" The man responded, "We'll see ..."
    Well, Prem had suffered immeasurably in those 10 years and must have wondered what the point was, sometimes. He was visiting a village once and there were Christians there and Prem asked them how they had come to know about Jesus. Their testimony to him was that a man who was mentally deranged from their village had been sent to prison and one day he came back and was in his right mind and told them about Jesus.

    Prem was astounded at the wisdom and ways of the Lord. Many more occurrences like this happened and Prem realized that it was physically impossible for him to reach so many tribes in Nepal and that instead of God bringing Prem to all of them, God brought the people from many tribes to Prem...in prison. Like Richard said, "We'll see".

    Prem is a dimunitive man of about 5'3". I am 6'3". It's funny seeing us stand together. He is with the Lord now, but was often considered the Apostle Paul of Nepal. His physical size has nothing at all to do with the size of his heart and his love for and faithfulness to Jesus Christ. He is credited with 40,000 conversions directly and indirectly from his ministry, yet, he just wants to be called a brother. Meeting Prem and spending 5 days with him gave me an idea of what Paul the Apostle must have been like...just a brother.

    What I really liked about Prem, is he knew the Lord and experienced spiritual warfare in his homeland of Nepal but knew that nothing was more powerful than Jesus Christ. He simply believed the word of God and as a result, lived in the book of Acts. And what I really like about Prem is that he knew that Jesus was the Chief Shepherd and he was nothing but a fellow-servant of the Lord. Prem was a brother and did not think he was anyone special. The missionary societies in Nepal (Methodist, Presbyterian) approached him independently and tried to convince him to influence all the Christians that he knew about to come under their "covering". Prem who did not know much about "big business religion" prayed about it and always felt that the Lord was telling him, NO. This was very frustrating to these organizations and eventually they turned on Prem and told the government he was a terrorist. Money does strange things to people. Just think how much the tithes would increase with the instant influx of 40,000 Believers.

    Prem experienced spiritual warfare of many kinds. Some of it was in your face and very blatant while other examples of it were extremely subtle. Most of it was Satan working through the agency of men, whereby cloaking himself. "By their fruits you will know them..."

    We all have a Father whether we want to admit it or not. There are only two fathers we can choose, God or Satan. Like Bob Dylan once said, "You gotta server somebody".

    "He that is not with me, is against me."

    Oh yeah, many more deranged, mentally ill men were delivered by the power of God.

    God bless you all,
    Rick


    More info on Prem.
    http://gospelgo.com/a/dz/prem.htm

    I will leave you with this verse:

    1Co 2:5
    That your faith should not stand in the wisdomofmen, but in the power of God.
    Last edited by heb13-13; 12-04-2011 at 05:06 PM.

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

  2. #32
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    Demons

    Hey Rick!

    Thank you for sharing about Prem. What an inspiration!


    Hi CWH,

    Leprosy is spread by long term contact and why should Jesus be afraid of leprosy if He can cure all illnesses.
    I completely agree that Jesus had no reason to be afraid of leprosy. In some parts of the world it survives apart from the human body, and, some strains are more virulent than others.

    It was said that an angel would stir the pool of Siloam at certain timings so that whoever enters it during those times would be cured of all sickness.
    Good point. He didn't contradict the man in John 5, which suggests an angel really did come and stir the waters.

    You seem to be suggesting that when Jesus spoke 'the word' to heal a person not present, that perhaps He was instructing an angel to go and touch the person? Are you? It's food for thought. But, it's not what I understand when I'm praying for God to touch another person in healing. I'm expecting HIM to do it!

    But we do know that the Bible describes Jesus touching them to be healed, if command alone unaided could cure diseases, why don't Jesus and His apostles used command only instead of touch to heal the sick, raised the dead and cast out "demons"?
    He did.

    Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed... 13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, [so] be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

    Mark 7: 28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. 29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter. 30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.
    This story raises the question (in light of your comment about angels) of whether an an angel can cast out a demon. I see no scripture to support such an idea. When angels appear in both the OT and NT, they are messengers. Yes they are very strong, but, are they ever given credit for affecting the behaviour of demons, or (for that matter), given credit for healing?

    Matthew 17:15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. 16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. 17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. 18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. The account in Mark 9 doesn't say Jesus touched the boy, either, but it makes a clearer separation between deliverance from the demon, and healing.

    Mark 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, [thou] unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What [is] thy name? And he answered, saying, My name [is] Legion: for we are many. 10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. 11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave.Here again there is no record of Jesus touching Legion. (On a point of interest, Legion had already offered worship to God. V6 says 'He' ran and worshipped Him. It was not the demons who were 'worshipping' Him, although they recognised His power over them.)

    Try talking to people of the 1st century or pre-schoolers and see if they understand about bacteria and the causes of diseases or not.
    I'm not sure what your point is, in this sentence, for we don't need to know the aetiology of an illness or disease to be able to pray as Jesus did. The fact that in the last hundred years bacteriology has developed has made no difference to the power of God or the effects of obedience to Him through faith.

    Every blessing to you, brother.
    Last edited by Charisma; 12-05-2011 at 06:52 AM.
    He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matthew 3:11

    With salvation's walls surrounded thou mayest smile at all thy foes...

    Let the world deride or pity, I will glory in Thy Name.
    Fading is the worldling’s pleasure, all his boasted pomp and show;
    Solid joys and lasting treasure none but Zion’s children know.


    http://www.smallchurchmusic.com/MP3/...no-128-CAM.mp3

  3. #33
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    Demons

    Hi Rose,

    I'm not disputing that chemical imbalance can be corrected by medication. Of course it may be.

    When a person who was healthy, then has experiences which traumatise them, they instinctively try to rescue themselves. God has given us bodies which self-heal to a certain extent. I mean, we may be left with a scar from a physical wound, just as we may die if the wound becomes infected with something which cannot be treated successfully (or, we may need an amputation).

    With wounds to the spirit, mind or soul, there are attempts by the person to recover, but many times this takes the form of self-protection rather than actual healing. It is in this state of not dealing effectively with either the wound or the causes of the wound(s), that people become bent out of shape physcologically. The pain is in their inner man, and constantly bearing such pain does have physical costs, some of which may be the development of schitzophrenia, or paranoia, or personality disorder, or violent behaviour (I'm sure you get my drift by now.) of which a characteristic is changes in the brain chemistry, having further effect on the body.

    A person can push guilt, for instance, so far away, that they don't feel guilty any more, but actually, they have promoted to themselves a numbing of their conscience, which then shows itself in harsh behaviours totally unrelated to the original cause of their guilt (which guilt may not be justified, but they took it upon themselves).

    These kinds of psychological changes have associated neurochemistry, which God can fix. Not only the initial wound, but the damage a person can do to themselves while trying to cope with psychological pain, may lead to demon activity, and one demon can lead to more. Not only does this person need deliverance from the spirit(s) which helped them survive their psychological pain, but they need to be healed from the neurological changes which have taken place since the initial wounding.

    Medication may be able to deal with the neurological changes, but while demons are holding territory in the person's life, they cannot experience a permanent cure.
    He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matthew 3:11

    With salvation's walls surrounded thou mayest smile at all thy foes...

    Let the world deride or pity, I will glory in Thy Name.
    Fading is the worldling’s pleasure, all his boasted pomp and show;
    Solid joys and lasting treasure none but Zion’s children know.


    http://www.smallchurchmusic.com/MP3/...no-128-CAM.mp3

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma
    Hey Rick!

    Thank you for sharing about Prem. What an inspiration!

    I'm not sure what your point is, in this sentence, for we don't need to know the aetiology of an illness or disease to be able to pray as Jesus did. The fact that in the last hundred years bacteriology has developed has made no difference to the power of God or the effects of obedience to Him through faith.

    Every blessing to you, brother.
    Thank you, Charisma.

    Prem was a cool brother.

    I think what CWH might be saying is that preschoolers can't understand about sickness, bacteria, diseases, et al. But whether they can or not I would not liken New Testament adults to preschoolers. Man has been creating poultices and using herbs for ages because they do indeed know about sickness and diseases.

    Your point that bacteriology and the medical establishment (by extension) "has made no difference to the power of God or the effects of obedience to Him through faith", is very good.

    Have a great day,
    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Beck,

    Sorry, I did not mean to overlook your question. I believe that every place in the NT where Jesus cast out a demon...He cast out a demon.
    Hi Rick,

    So we would have a general belief that these are true literal events that Jesus and his disciples casted out evil spirits. We also have some that believe that these events describe those of different types of psychological disorders. While I somewhat believe these events describe a parable of sort. Here we have at least three ways of interperting those passages that speak of demon possession.

    Rick I wanted to thank you for telling us that inspirational testimony of Prem.

    I go back to how I would read those passages that speak of casting out evil spirits and apply that to a parable. I mentioned the work of John Dominic Crossan and found this youtube it may well help us understand a little more and why I also see these as parables.




    In this Jesus commanded them to go and preach that the Kingdom of God is at hand, heal the sick, clean the lepers, cast out devils, raise the dead: freely you have received freely give. I understand much of these to be a metaphor of the sinful condition of the people.
    Beck

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Hi Rick,

    In this Jesus commanded them to go and preach that the Kingdom of God is at hand, heal the sick, clean the lepers, cast out devils, raise the dead: freely you have received freely give. I understand much of these to be a metaphor of the sinful condition of the people.
    Hi Beck,

    In comparing what Jesus focused on in the Gospels (commanding the disciples to go and heal the sick, and cast out demons), with Paul's ministry where the focus was on salvation, and freedom from the law one can see a very different approach to preaching the Kingdom of God. It's very interesting that Paul rarely spoke of casting out demons, whereas one of the focal points of Jesus's ministry was casting out demons.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Beck,

    In comparing what Jesus focused on in the Gospels (commanding the disciples to go and heal the sick, and cast out demons), with Paul's ministry where the focus was on salvation, and freedom from the law one can see a very different approach to preaching the Kingdom of God. It's very interesting that Paul rarely spoke of casting out demons, whereas one of the focal points of Jesus's ministry was casting out demons.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Hi Rose, I'm not sure if there is any differences, but maybe in the way it was written. The Gospel the Kingdom message is delivered through parables by Jesus. I'm also considering that even those events not label as parable may well be written as a story to relay the Kingdom message by the four synoptic Gospels.
    As I know of Paul never used the method of story telling to explain the Kingdom of God, but his writing do employ metaphors and symbolic meaning.

    You would think that there was an epidemic of demon possessions, but soon there was very little to none mentioned by Paul. That another reason to think that there is more that what can be read in those passages. For I know that 'sickness' is what Jesus said that he was the doctor to cure the sick and heal the broken hearted (Mark 2:17) and (Luke 4:18). Here Jesus tells us whom the sick where...They were those that are spiritual sick.


    17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    We can see the spiritual nature of these that are sick and dead throughout scriptures. I'm thinking the same for those possessed by evil spirit (demons) and the lepers.

    How else would the first century saint tell of the life times of Jesus, but by parables? A story written in prose or verse.
    Last edited by Beck; 12-06-2011 at 01:01 PM.
    Beck

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Hi Rose, I'm not sure if there is any differences, but maybe in the way it was written. The Gospel the Kingdom message is delivered through parables by Jesus. I'm also considering that even those events not label as parable may well be written as a story to relay the Kingdom message by the four synoptic Gospels.
    As I know of Paul never used the method of story telling to explain the Kingdom of God, but his writing do employ metaphors and symbolic meaning.

    You would think that there was an epidemic of demon possessions, but soon there was very little to none mentioned by Paul. That another reason to think that there is more that what can be read in those passages. For I know that 'sickness' is what Jesus said that he was the doctor to cure the sick and heal the broken hearted (Mark 2:17) and (Luke 4:18). Here Jesus tells us whom the sick where...They were those that are spiritual sick.

    17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    We can see the spiritual nature of these that are sick and dead throughout scriptures. I'm thinking the same for those possessed by evil spirit (demons) and the lepers.

    How else would the first century saint tell of the life times of Jesus, but by parables? A story written in prose or verse.
    Hi Beck,

    It is hard to escape the fact that Jesus was not just an excellent storyteller for the people witnessed manifestations with their own eyes that indicated great power.

    Luk 4:36
    And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

    Mat 9:6
    But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

    Mat 9:8
    But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

    Mat 10:1
    And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

    Kind regards,
    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Beck,

    It is hard to escape the fact that Jesus was not just an excellent storyteller for the people witnessed manifestations with their own eyes that indicated great power.

    Luk 4:36
    And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

    Mat 9:6
    But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

    Mat 9:8
    But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

    Mat 10:1
    And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

    Kind regards,
    Rick
    Hi Rick,

    I agree Jesus was a Master storyteller, but as to his disciples been given the power to heal the sick and raise the dead. You would think that them rasing the dead from their graves would have made a great
    deal of popularity. However you see no case of this written, but more so it may well be how Paul spoke of raising the dead.

    Ephesians 2:1-3
    1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


    Paul could easily said that their 'demons' had been casted out of them as well as the dead being rasied. Again as to what you mentioned those instances show the power of God through Christ. Like unto how the day of penetcost is described as having fire and wind from heaven. It's a way to show the power of God.

    To those that were blind and now can see the disciples described Jesus taking mud and putting it in the man's eyes and told him to go wash himself. What can be taken from this 'event' or parable is the the blind man was unclean and told to go wash himself therefore by washing he begun to see.

    Jesus said the same thing to the Pharisees that they said that they could see, but Jesus said that they were blind leaders of the blind. So you can see that not all can be taken literally.
    Beck

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Hi Rick,

    I agree Jesus was a Master storyteller, but as to his disciples been given the power to heal the sick and raise the dead. You would think that them rasing the dead from their graves would have made a great deal of popularity.
    I'm not sure if it would have been that popular or convincing.

    Luk 16:27
    Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house.

    Luk 16:28
    For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

    Luk 16:29
    Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

    Luk 16:30
    And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent

    Luk 16:31
    And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
    However you see no case of this written, but more so it may well be how Paul spoke of raising the dead.
    Act 20:9
    And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

    Act 20:10
    And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.

    Act 20:11
    When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.

    Act 20:12
    And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.


    Ephesians 2:1-3
    1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (He means spiritually dead here. I was physically alive before I was born-again).

    2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (How does he work in the children of disobedience?).
    3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    Paul could easily said that their 'demons' had been casted out of them as well as the dead being raised. Again as to what you mentioned those instances show the power of God through Christ. Like unto how the day of penetcost is described as having fire and wind from heaven. It's a way to show the power of God.

    Act 13:10
    And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

    Act 13:11
    And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

    Here is a case where a physical manifestation took place. Just as the sick were healed physically and spiritually and demons were expelled from people's bodies, blindness was brought upon this man. You cannot spiritualize this because he had to be led around by hand. Well, I suppose you could spiritualize anything. But what about experience, Beck. Have you ever had the occasion to pray or minister to a man with a demon that wanted help? Have you ever known a brother or sister that seemed to have a "stronghold" in them because no matter how hard they prayed or tried, they could not get free from it? What about yourself? We are our own best experts, right? Have you had strongholds? Have you experienced the power of Satan and the Power of God? I have and it took the prayer of deliverance (not hokey stuff) to be set free. We think a person with a demon is a "frothing at the mouth demoniac but that is not so". There are people with strongholds in every walk of life, because they have opened themselves up to the powers of darkness. Today, we call them addictions.

    It is when you believe the Word and act upon it that it is further "explained" to you and you witness the reality of God's Word.


    To those that were blind and now can see the disciples described Jesus taking mud and putting it in the man's eyes and told him to go wash himself. What can be taken from this 'event' or parable is the the blind man was unclean and told to go wash himself therefore by washing he begun to see.
    So, was the man physically blind or just spiritually blind? And did he just need to wash himself in Christ's blood or in a sink with soap? I'm confused.

    Jesus said the same thing to the Pharisees that they said that they could see, but Jesus said that they were blind leaders of the blind. So you can see that not all can be taken literally.
    Of course and I have never said that everything is to be taken literally.

    When men are physically blind I take it literally.

    When men are spiritually blind I take it "literally".

    When men need to wash their hands before they eat (on the Sabbath), I understand what that means. Physical.

    When men need to wash the inside of their cup, (spiritual) that means their heart is unclean.

    I think I get it. But what I don't do is spiritualize everything in the Bible that is clearly in the physical realm. That would mean that men with physical sicknesses could not be prayed for, for physical healing or men in bondage to demon spirits could not be set free in Jesus name.

    Many times you need more than just words to help men break free from the powers of darkness. Satan's works must be met with superior force and the Cross is the focal point of his defeat.

    Often there is a spiritual reason for many of the things we see in the physical realm. Remember, supernatural agents (God, angels and demons). come and go freely in and out of the physical realm and we are spiritual as well as physical beings.

    Rick
    Last edited by heb13-13; 12-06-2011 at 03:34 PM.

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

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