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Thread: Demons

  1. #231
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    Demons

    Hi Richard,

    Interesting thoughts you have - sent me scurrying to my Bible for context .

    Isn't there a bit of a problem putting good and evil beside each other, implying they are more equal in quality than they are? I mean, Jesus said, 'only God is good', and He also had said, 'I create evil'. Jesus had to partake of 'the likeness of sinful flesh' - the lowest common denominator - to show us that we could overcome evil, with divine help (Romans 8:13), but how many humans truly want to be god-like in the way that Jesus was?

    I think you've take rather a liberty with the 'all in all' in 1 Cor 12, as it is strictly limited to the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit through Christian believers. The 'all in all', is: the same God in each believer acting through the different gifts He has distributed within the Church.

    1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

    Likewise, in Ephesians 1:15 onwards, Paul is talking about Christ in the Church; it's one very long sentence, according to Green's Literal.

    15 Because of this, hearing of your faith in the Lord Jesus and love toward all the saints, 16 I also do not cease giving thanks on your behalf, making mention of you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your mind having been enlightened, for you to know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us, the ones believing according to the working of His mighty strength 20 which He worked in Christ in raising Him from the dead; yea, He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies, 21 far above all rule, and authority, and power, and lordship, and every name having been named, not only in this age, but also in the coming age; 22 and He "put all things under His feet" and gave Him to be Head over all things to the assembly, 23 which is His body: the fullness of the One filling all things in all; 2:1 and you being dead in deviations and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom we also all conducted ourselves in times past in the lusts of our flesh, doing the things willed of the flesh and of the understanding, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as the rest.


    Surely, these demonstrate that the Unity in God is limited to those domains over which He has complete dominion, graciously including all the creatures who choose to come into agreement with the terms He has established for koinonia with Himself?

    John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. The one abiding in Me, and I in him, this one bears much fruit, because apart from Me you are not able to execute, nothing. 6 Unless one remains in Me, he is cast out as the branch and is dried up; and they gather and throw them into a fire, and they are burned. 7 If you remain in Me, and My Words remain in you, whatever you desire you will ask, and it shall happen to you. 8 In this My Father is glorified, that you should bear much fruit; and you will be disciples to Me. 9 As the Father loved Me, I also loved you; continue in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments you will continue in My love, as I have kept My Father's commandments and continue in His love. 11 I have spoken these things to you that My joy may abide in you, and your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I loved you. 13 Greater love than this has no one, that anyone should lay down his soul for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 I no longer call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his lord does. But I called you friends, because all things which I heard from My Father I made known to you. 16 You have not chosen Me, but I chose you out and planted you, that you should go and should bear fruit, and your fruit remain, that whatever you should ask the Father in My name, He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.


    Clearly, God is most desirous of Unity, but not at the expense of authentic wholeness or perfection (completion).

    Ephesians 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 [there is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  2. #232
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    Demons

    Charisma and Rick....I'm letting Richard's post speak for me here and am going to respectfully bow out of this conversation. All the best...Kathryn
    Hi Kathryn,

    I appreciate the time you took to explain your position. Thank you for that.

    John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:
    so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned:

    but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    Last edited by Charisma; 01-14-2012 at 06:41 AM.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  3. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Richard,

    Interesting thoughts you have - sent me scurrying to my Bible for context .

    Isn't there a bit of a problem putting good and evil beside each other, implying they are more equal in quality than they are? I mean, Jesus said, 'only God is good', and He also had said, 'I create evil'. Jesus had to partake of 'the likeness of sinful flesh' - the lowest common denominator - to show us that we could overcome evil, with divine help (Romans 8:13), but how many humans truly want to be god-like in the way that Jesus was?

    Hi Charisma,

    I am going to respond to the recent questioning with two quotes from James Fowler regarding Dualism and the Origin of Evil, because I cannot improve upon them.


    1st Quote: Regarding Dualism

    By indicating that either God or Satan indwells or rules over every human individual, is this not a dualistic understanding of the spiritual condition of mankind?

    Some people seem to think that the positing of an either/or contrast necessarily creates or constitutes a dualism. I do not believe that to be correct.

    In the either/or diametric polarity between God and Satan, there is definitely a duality – a contrast of two opposites: God – Satan; good – evil; truth – error; holy – sinful; love – self‐orientation. This is a fixed antithesis of character, and the two polar opposites cannot be brought together in integration or compromise.

    But, this is not a dualism, or (as the question states) a 'dualistic understanding of the spiritual condition of mankind.'

    The classic philosophical usage of the term 'dualism' applies to two mutually exclusive and absolutely equal forces that oppose one another and remain in a perpetual stalemate or standoff (thought not necessarily a static stasis without interaction). The Taoist dualism of yin/yang is an example of such dualism, and the Taijitu symbol used for such, pictures equal parts of two principles, each with a balancing portion of the other within. The two (the black and the white) are together within a larger inclusive circle, creating a duality within a unity – a dualism wherein they reside in everlasting juxtaposition – interdependent and interconnected – but forever balancing each other out.

    The presence and activity of God or Satan within regenerate and unregenerate human individuals, is a polarized duality, but not a dualistic standoff where neither can overcome the other.

    God, in Christ, has defeated the forces of evil. In the death of Jesus Christ, Satan has been rendered powerless (Heb. 2:14), and the works of the devil destroyed (I John 3:8). A cosmic victory has been won, when Christ 'disarmed and triumphed over the rulers and authorities of evil (Col. 2:15) by His death on the cross. No human individual need remain indwelt and enslaved by Satan. A spiritual exchange is available to all men, wherein they can be turned/converted from the dominion and authority of Satan to the Lordship of Jesus Christ (Acts 26:18), and experience 'Christ in them, the hope of glory' (Col. 1:27).

    Henceforth, it can be declared of the Christian, 'Greater is He who is in you, than he who is in the world' (I Jn. 4:4)."

    2nd Quote: Regarding The Origin of Evil

    The origin of evil and its introduction into God’s created world has always been difficult to explain. Do you have a theological solution to this difficulty?

    The origin and introduction of evil or sin into the perfect universe that the Righteous God created has been an issue of much debate throughout the history of Christian thought. The discussion of such is known as 'theodicy' in philosophical and theological circles.

    In terms of trying to explain the origin of evil from a biblical perspective, with rather limited and debatable details, the question narrows down to a discussion of the origin of the Evil One. How did the Adversary, the devil, Satan, come into being?

    Evil is contrary to the character of God – the antithesis of God’s character. If (since) God is the creator of all things, how did evil character enter into the cosmic arena?

    God is the essential cause of all things (as the Creator), but He is not the culpable cause of evil that is contrary to His character. Since He generates all things ek autos (out of Himself), and in consistency with Himself – His character – we cannot blame evil on God! It is impossible for God to lie (Heb. 6:18); it is impossible for God to be the source of evil. Directly anyway!

    But indirectly God did create derivative creatures with freedom of choice,
    and the first category of such creatures, that we know of, were the angelic beings – the angels. God Self‐limited Himself (as only God could do) to create angelic beings with a freedom of choice that could choose to derive all from Him – or refuse to do so. But what alternative derivative source was there?

    That is the 'ultimate incongruity' – or what Karl Barth called the 'impossible possibility.'

    Utilizing the historical narratives of Isa. 14:12‐15 and Ezek. 28:11‐19 with their apparent double entendres, along with the imagery of the Apocalypse (Rev. 12:3‐9), we surmise that Lucifer, the Light‐bearer, the Son of the Dawn, apparently had some form of leadership in the angelic hierarchy. Using his creaturely freedom of choice, he chose to reject the derivation and bearing of God’s Light. Where did that rejective rebellion come from? We do not know – it’s an ultimate incongruity.

    But a LIE was born – 'I will be like the Most High God' (Isa. 14:14) – 'I will be an ‘independent self’; I will function ek autos (out of myself) as a self‐for‐self. How could that be? It’s an ultimate incongruity!

    Did the angelic choice of Lucifer create the Adversary, Satan by his own self‐choice? It does not seem possible. But by some means the Evil One came into being – the necessary fixed negative of God’s positive – the enemy, the opponent, the adversary – forever cursed and irredeemable. NOT co‐equal with God; not a god of good vs. a god of evil, forever in a dualistic standoff. NOT merely the absence and privation of God’s good, for explanation by absence amounts to nothing.
    God and Satan. There is an essential constitutional difference between them, for one is the Creator and the other a creature; One has intrinsic Being, while the other has extrinsic being. They were polarized in an essential character dichotomy of good and evil.

    Satan remains a derivative creature of God. He cannot be an 'independent self,' self‐generating character. Apparently Satan takes that which is of God; His goodness, righteousness, loving character, and twists such around backwards into its negative antithesis. He short‐circuits the character of God in grotesque distortion. In Acts 13:10 Paul calls Elymas a 'son of the devil,' who 'makes crooked the straight ways of God.'

    I don’t know that this is an airtight solution to the problem of evil in the world, but it is the most biblical, theological & philosophical tenable explanation that I have ever heard."



    Origin of Evil
    Theodicy
    'God is the essential
    cause of all things,
    but He is not the
    blameworthy or culpable
    cause of evil –
    that is contrary
    to His character.'

    It is the best answer I have ever heard also, biblically speaking.

    Rick


    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

    Answering the Skeptics Bible

  4. #234
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    Rick: Utilizing the historical narratives of Isa. 14:12‐15 and Ezek. 28:11‐19 with their apparent double entendres, along with the imagery of the Apocalypse (Rev. 12:3‐9), we surmise that Lucifer, the Light‐bearer, the Son of the Dawn, apparently had some form of leadership in the angelic hierarchy. Using his creaturely freedom of choice, he chose to reject the derivation and bearing of God’s Light. Where did that rejective rebellion come from? We do not know – it’s an ultimate incongruity.

    But a LIE was born – 'I will be like the Most High God' (Isa. 14:14) – 'I will be an ‘independent self’; I will function ek autos (out of myself) as a self‐for‐self. How could that be? It’s an ultimate incongruity!

    Did the angelic choice of Lucifer create the Adversary, Satan by his own self‐choice? It does not seem possible. But by some means the Evil One came into being – the necessary fixed negative of God’s positive – the enemy, the opponent, the adversary – forever cursed and irredeemable. NOT co‐equal with God; not a god of good vs. a god of evil, forever in a dualistic standoff. NOT merely the absence and privation of God’s good, for explanation by absence amounts to nothing.


    Hi Rick...I just wanted to tie up this loose end as it is something I asked you several posts back and we never had a chance to get back to it.
    Could you please explain how you are taking the verses above pertaining to "Lucifer" , as satan? (you realize that word "lucifer" was a latin addition to scripture?)

    Both the King of Babylon and the King of Tyre(ROCK) are men...man=ADAM. They are a type of the fully ripened condition of iniquity/vanity in man (Adam) and a therefore a counterfeit type to the 2nd Adam.
    Only man was given dominion over the earth. Satan was only given authority in the "air" and as "prince" , not King...and as a spirit, not a man. (etc)
    Last edited by kathryn; 01-15-2012 at 07:48 AM.

  5. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Rick: Utilizing the historical narratives of Isa. 14:12‐15 and Ezek. 28:11‐19 with their apparent double entendres, along with the imagery of the Apocalypse (Rev. 12:3‐9), we surmise that Lucifer, the Light‐bearer, the Son of the Dawn, apparently had some form of leadership in the angelic hierarchy. Using his creaturely freedom of choice, he chose to reject the derivation and bearing of God’s Light. Where did that rejective rebellion come from? We do not know – it’s an ultimate incongruity.

    But a LIE was born – 'I will be like the Most High God' (Isa. 14:14) – 'I will be an ‘independent self’; I will function ek autos (out of myself) as a self‐for‐self. How could that be? It’s an ultimate incongruity!

    Did the angelic choice of Lucifer create the Adversary, Satan by his own self‐choice? It does not seem possible. But by some means the Evil One came into being – the necessary fixed negative of God’s positive – the enemy, the opponent, the adversary – forever cursed and irredeemable. NOT co‐equal with God; not a god of good vs. a god of evil, forever in a dualistic standoff. NOT merely the absence and privation of God’s good, for explanation by absence amounts to nothing.


    Hi Rick...I just wanted to tie up this loose end as it is something I asked you several posts back and we never had a chance to get back to it.
    Could you please explain how you are taking the verses above pertaining to "Lucifer" , as satan? (you realize that word "lucifer" was a latin addition to scripture?)

    Both the King of Babylon and the King of Tyre(ROCK) are men...man=ADAM. They are a type of the fully ripened condition of iniquity/vanity in man (Adam) and a therefore a counterfeit type to the 2nd Adam.
    Only man was given dominion over the earth. Satan was only given authority in the "air" and as "prince" , not King...and as a spirit, not a man. (etc)
    Hi Kathryn,

    Actually, Adam delivered by default (Adam's fall and subsquent "capture" by Satan) all of his dominion to Satan.

    Luke 4:
    And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

    Luke 4:6

    And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

    In Satan's conversation with Jesus, he admits that the kingdoms of the world were delivered unto him.

    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

    Answering the Skeptics Bible

  6. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Kathryn,

    Actually, Adam delivered by default (Adam's fall and subsquent "capture" by Satan) all of his dominion to Satan.

    Luke 4:
    And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

    Luke 4:6

    And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

    In Satan's conversation with Jesus, he admits that the kingdoms of the world were delivered unto him.

    Rick
    Yep....but you will still have to "shoe horn" the fact that it is only over the "power of the air" and as a prince and spirit...not as a King/man.
    Your doctrine Rick has to deny many scriptures in order to make it fit. (and we haven't reached the realm of typology yet)

  7. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Richard,

    Interesting thoughts you have - sent me scurrying to my Bible for context .

    Isn't there a bit of a problem putting good and evil beside each other, implying they are more equal in quality than they are? I mean, Jesus said, 'only God is good', and He also had said, 'I create evil'. Jesus had to partake of 'the likeness of sinful flesh' - the lowest common denominator - to show us that we could overcome evil, with divine help (Romans 8:13), but how many humans truly want to be god-like in the way that Jesus was?
    Hi there Charisma,

    It's good to be discussing this with you. I'm not saying that good and evil are "equal in quality." That would be silly, like saying light is the same as dark. My point is that the idea of "good and evil" is a single idea. The concept of "good" implies "evil" and vice-versa. They are the two "poles" of a single way of looking at the world. The way of "judgment." It assumes a fundamental duality in the world. That was my point. I am not saying that they are "equal" - on the contrary, I am saying that they are opposites like light and dark, up and down. They are inextricably connected with each other because they are polar ways of viewing reality.

    You ask "how many humans want to be godlike in the way that Jesus was?" Who wouldn't? That's the fundamental error in the idea of eternal punishment. What good does it accomplish? And if it is not good, but rather an eternal evil, we know with perfect certainty that it is not something that the true God would do.

    When Jesus said only God was good, he was obviously using hyperbole. We know this because elsewhere Jesus talks about good people. For example:

    Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

    If there is no such thing as a "good man" then Jesus was speaking very deceptively here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    I think you've take rather a liberty with the 'all in all' in 1 Cor 12, as it is strictly limited to the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit through Christian believers. The 'all in all', is: the same God in each believer acting through the different gifts He has distributed within the Church.

    1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

    Likewise, in Ephesians 1:15 onwards, Paul is talking about Christ in the Church; it's one very long sentence, according to Green's Literal.

    15 Because of this, hearing of your faith in the Lord Jesus and love toward all the saints, 16 I also do not cease giving thanks on your behalf, making mention of you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your mind having been enlightened, for you to know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us, the ones believing according to the working of His mighty strength 20 which He worked in Christ in raising Him from the dead; yea, He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies, 21 far above all rule, and authority, and power, and lordship, and every name having been named, not only in this age, but also in the coming age; 22 and He "put all things under His feet" and gave Him to be Head over all things to the assembly, 23 which is His body: the fullness of the One filling all things in all; 2:1 and you being dead in deviations and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom we also all conducted ourselves in times past in the lusts of our flesh, doing the things willed of the flesh and of the understanding, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as the rest.

    Surely, these demonstrate that the Unity in God is limited to those domains over which He has complete dominion, graciously including all the creatures who choose to come into agreement with the terms He has established for koinonia with Himself?
    This is what I meant when I said that "there are those who dispute the meaning of that phrase." Think of the gymnastics folks are willing to execute to support their doctrines. If you wanted to believe that God was "all in all" in the literal meaning of that phrase, you would present arguments for that. It's all a matter of what folks want to believe. They don't derive their beliefs from Scripture so much as impose them thereon. Case in point - the church is only the "firstfruits" of the great company that will be redeemed, which is the entire universe and all who live in it:

    1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Why does Paul say that God is the savor of all men? Why does it say "especially those that believe?" Does that not imply he is also the savior of those who do not believe? I know you can say "Yes, he is the savior of all men, but only those that believe will be saved." That's fine, you can believe what you like, but you can't claim your interpretation is the only possibility. The Bible says that God reconciled the whole world (2 Cor 5:19).

    When the Bible says that God is "the One filling all in all" (Eph 1:23) he is not talking about the "church" only. He is talking about how God is the one who fills ALL IN ALL. You have merely chosen to impose you presuppositions on the Bible. And that's fine, that's what everyone does. But some are more consistent with what the Bible teaches. I note that you did not address my central argument at all which is supported by the all-encompassing phrases like "I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." And the verse in Acts where Paul said that everyone lives and moves and has their being in God.

    There is only one issue here. You have begun with a certain set of presuppositions to which you are forcing these verses to conform. And that's fine, everyone does it. But the fact remains that you could have chosen a different set of presuppositions and conformed everything to them. Case in point: I begin with the presupposition that God is Light and God is Love and God is Just. Therefore, there no eternal hell. QED.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Clearly, God is most desirous of Unity, but not at the expense of authentic wholeness or perfection (completion).
    That's right! And that's why there cannot be a "hell." There could never be any "authentic wholeness or perfection" in a universe filled with tortured sinners twisted in torment forever!

    I think you underestimate the power of God to redeem each and every person. You have inherited the Roman Catholic Doctrine that was invented to make people slaves of fear. The Catholics claimed to have power over the eternal fate of your soul. If you did not submit and obey their rule, they would condemn you to eternal hell. That's what it's all about. Power and fear. The doctrine is entirely ungodly.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #238
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    Demons

    Hi Rick and Kathryn,

    Yep....but you will still have to "shoe horn" the fact that it is only over the "power of the air"
    Hi Kathryn,

    Which verses do you have in mind, which conflict with Rick's point that Satan had acquired 'all the kingdoms of the world' through Adam's carelessness with God's commands in the garden of Eden?

    Rick quoted Luke 4. Here is Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

    (Same deal as in Genesis 14:21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself. {persons: Heb. souls} )


    The only person on earth in Jesus' time, who was not a child of disobedience spiritually, was Jesus.
    Historically, since Adam, this order had pertained unbroken in all mankind.


    It is accepted that Satan is 'the prince of the power of the air' , as Paul calls him in Ephesians 2:the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath

    and as a prince and spirit...not as a King/man.
    Why do you mention 'not as a King/man'? (Again, it's not disputed Satan is a spirit; it's clear from Ephesians 2, that he had every person on earth in his control.)


    Three witnesses?
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Charisma,

    I am going to respond to the recent questioning with two quotes from James Fowler regarding Dualism and the Origin of Evil, because I cannot improve upon them.


    1st Quote: Regarding Dualism

    By indicating that either God or Satan indwells or rules over every human individual, is this not a dualistic understanding of the spiritual condition of mankind?

    Some people seem to think that the positing of an either/or contrast necessarily creates or constitutes a dualism. I do not believe that to be correct.

    In the either/or diametric polarity between God and Satan, there is definitely a duality – a contrast of two opposites: God – Satan; good – evil; truth – error; holy – sinful; love – self‐orientation. This is a fixed antithesis of character, and the two polar opposites cannot be brought together in integration or compromise.

    But, this is not a dualism, or (as the question states) a 'dualistic understanding of the spiritual condition of mankind.'

    The classic philosophical usage of the term 'dualism' applies to two mutually exclusive and absolutely equal forces that oppose one another and remain in a perpetual stalemate or standoff (thought not necessarily a static stasis without interaction). The Taoist dualism of yin/yang is an example of such dualism, and the Taijitu symbol used for such, pictures equal parts of two principles, each with a balancing portion of the other within. The two (the black and the white) are together within a larger inclusive circle, creating a duality within a unity – a dualism wherein they reside in everlasting juxtaposition – interdependent and interconnected – but forever balancing each other out.

    The presence and activity of God or Satan within regenerate and unregenerate human individuals, is a polarized duality, but not a dualistic standoff where neither can overcome the other.

    God, in Christ, has defeated the forces of evil. In the death of Jesus Christ, Satan has been rendered powerless (Heb. 2:14), and the works of the devil destroyed (I John 3:8). A cosmic victory has been won, when Christ 'disarmed and triumphed over the rulers and authorities of evil (Col. 2:15) by His death on the cross. No human individual need remain indwelt and enslaved by Satan. A spiritual exchange is available to all men, wherein they can be turned/converted from the dominion and authority of Satan to the Lordship of Jesus Christ (Acts 26:18), and experience 'Christ in them, the hope of glory' (Col. 1:27).

    Henceforth, it can be declared of the Christian, 'Greater is He who is in you, than he who is in the world' (I Jn. 4:4)."

    Hey there Rick,

    Good quote! It helps clear up some fundamental misunderstandings.

    I agree that the Christian view is one of a "polarized duality" and it is not teaching that God/Satan are like "yin/yang." But that's just doctrine that obscurs the fundamental dualism inherent in Christianity. You do not believe that God is or will be the "all in all." You believe there will be a fundamental and eternal duality of good (heaven) and evil (hell). And in practice Christianity treats God and Satan as "pure good" vs. "pure evil." You made this pretty clear in that list of "dualities" that you posted here and to which I responded earlier in this thread here:

    There are only two characters

    in this Universe,
    not one
    and
    not three
    and these characters
    cannot be ONE
    as in
    UNITY.

    Flesh + Spirit = 1?
    Good + Evil = 1?
    Life + Death = 1?
    Love + Hate = 1?
    Sin + Righteousness = 1?
    Lies + Truth = 1?
    Holy + Unholy = 1?
    Heaven + Hell = 1?
    God + Satan = 1?

    The subtle distinctions that can be made between Christian dualism and philosophical dualism do not affect the point I have been trying to communicate. Traditional Christianity is fundamentally dualistic, and it teaches that God will never be the "all in all" and that evil will exist for eternity. Much of the world will never be redeemed according to your doctrine. I think that is a false doctrine. I believe God is the "all in all" by definition, since God is the Ground of Being in whom we all "move, and live and have our being" (Acts 17:28).

    I'll answer the second quote dealing with the origin of evil in another post.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #240
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Yep....but you will still have to "shoe horn" the fact that it is only over the "power of the air" and as a prince and spirit...not as a King/man.
    Your doctrine Rick has to deny many scriptures in order to make it fit. (and we haven't reached the realm of typology yet)
    Hi Kathryn,

    Ok, let's stick with scriptures first and then we can get to typology regarding your doctrine.

    What scriptures would I have to deny?

    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

    Answering the Skeptics Bible

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