Demons

[David M]

Hello Kathryn and Charisma

With interest I have been reading your comments. I would have posted earlier but it took some time to get registered and approved. I see now that this dialogue between you is probably coming to its end.

As you will see from the number of posts, this is my first post on the forum. My intention is always to impart the Truth of God’s Word as I understand it and comes as a result of studying God’s Word for many years. God’s Word does not change; only our understanding of it changes. It is difficult to write short reply and not make it like sound bites. I do not want to start a different line of argument here and do not expect to be agreed nor do I not want to start a new line of argument. I have to state God’s Truth as I understand it.

I have read most of the content of the last 22 pages of this thread which started off discussing Demons and is now talking about Universalism. As I have been reading the contributions from the different members I have been trying to work out who has the best grasp of God’s Truth. It is evident from the posts in this thread, that some contributors get hung up on a particular aspect of their thinking which is not in line with the Truth.

It is good that we all search for the Truth of God’s Word and we examine everything that is said against God’s Word. I shall say some things which others will not agree with and I would not be so arrogant as to think that I know God’s Truth any more than anyone else, but I have a duty to preach the Gospel and teach the Truth as I understand it. We have to serve God (Josh 24:14) in sincerity and in truth and also we have to work out our own salvation (Phil2:12) with fear and trembling. In doing so we have to be humble as Jesus was humble and conform to Jesus’ way of thinking as Paul writes; (Phil2:5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: This is part of what it means to be a true Christian or a true follower of the Lord Jesus. All things that Jesus heard from his Heavenly Father he told his disciples and the same has come down to us through God’s Word.

I came across another church recently which I thought was excellent for its interpretation of prophecy and teaching of baptism. However, I was disappointed to find that their understanding of the nature of Jesus and the Devil are wrong, but they will not admit they are wrong any more than we hang on to our own views when we think we have the truth and everyone else is wrong. One universalism I think we can all agree on is this; we can all be wrong, but we cannot all be right.

I have to confess that I do not have an explanation for every verse in the Bible; I am still searching for answers in the Bible in which the Bible so often answers itself. We ought to agree that where the Bible has lots of verses which convey the same meaning then if there is one verse appears to contradict all the others, we should keep searching until we find the interpretation that fits. God does not lie; God has not set out to confuse us. However, unless one begins to understand the language of scripture and see with the eyes of faith, the Word of God will not be understood and remain a mystery. Heed this warning; (2Pet 3:16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I can sympathize with your view Kathryn to some extent. I cannot impose on God my limitation on who I think will be saved by the Grace of God. We are taught not to judge others and leave all judgment to God and Jesus. Whoever God raises from the dead and whoever inherits the Kingdom of God, it is for God to decide. Those who are raised to life to stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ, God has given all judgement into the hand of Jesus. We cannot speculate on who will and who will not be in the Kingdom of God, rather we should concentrate on those things that we are clearly instructed to do and which are essential for our own salvation. As Jesus said; (Matt 8:22) Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. Let’s leave all judgement to God who knows (Rom 2:16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.

We can have the knowledge and understanding of God’s Truth yet if we do not put our belief and knowledge to doing good works following the example of the Lord Jesus Christ, then our faith without works is dead (James 2:20). At the same time as we go about our daily lives doing good works and living a Christ-like life, we can increase our understanding of God’s Word and come to know more about the prophecies to be fulfilled in which God will fulfil His purpose. God rules in the Kingdoms of men (Dan 4:17) know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. Do not be misled by erroneous teaching about Satan doing this). God says (Isa 45:7); 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Please get this in context (as all scripture must be taken in context). I will make this a subject of another thread, but God’s Holy Angels do His Will in Heaven. Read the Lord ’s Prayer (Matt 6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. The Bible (God’s Word) is consistent and therefore, to say an Holy Angel of God rebelled and did not obey God or do His Will is a lie and is not the Truth. A more plausible explanation of Satan needs to be understood. Unlike human nature, God’s Holy Angels do as God instructs them and has given them power to do; God’s Holy Angels do not have the choice to obey or not.


I think on the subject of Universalism, I have to agree with Charisma. The Kindgom of God on the earth to come is not inclusive of all who have ever lived. The teaching of Jesus in his parables of the Kingdom is very clear on this and there are many verses that can be quoted in support of this. Just a couple of verses for now (Matt 22:14) For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matt7:13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Just how few will be in the Kingdom compared to the billions of people who have ever lived? Jesus says; (John 14:2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. This is not to say the places are unlimited. If we know the places are limited and there might be fewer than we think, that should make us more determined to be one of the few who are given a place.

Sadly, there are too many in the world who do not want to know God and do not want to be saved by Him. For this reason, these reprobates as they are called, God does give up on them. Please read Romans chapters 1 and 2 that make this perfectly clear.

God wants all men and women to obey Him and come to knowledge of the Truth by which they are saved. That knowledge brings you to know God and His only begotten Son Jesus. God does not want anyone to perish; (2 Pet 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God’s offer of salvation is open to all who will accept it (on God’s terms). God knows the vast majority will not accept Him. Jesus died so that all might live, but not all will accept God or Jesus. The promise of God spoken by Jesus which is the great promise of God made to all is not without conditions. These conditions are not accepted by everyone and therefore not everyone (all) will be saved. Read and understand John 3:16 very carefully; For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This clearly indicates that salvation cannot be universal. Only if ALL believeth in him can ALL be saved and we simply know that this is not the case. It is all the believers who will be saved.

For the majority, the wages of their sin is death and that is exactly what they will receive.

(Jude 1:24) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

[kathryn]

[QUOTE=Charisma;40270]Hi Kathryn,

I don't think your request for a definition of 'eternal' and 'everlasting' was attached to specific verses, so what I meant by 'age-during' is that when those words (eternal and everlasting) appear in the KJV, they are both able to be translated 'age-during'. By this I understand that whatever pronouncement has been made, will be in force until the end of the age to which it is being applied.

Here are three references to 'the world to come'.

Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

It seems to me in light of these verses, that 'everlasting' or 'eternal' life, is a quality of life which is not terminated by the end of an age.


Is that clearer?


Good Morning Charisma....You've brought up more than one topic here...so I will comment one at a time so the posts aren't too long. You did use several verses pertaining to the "everlasting nature" of punishment. I think we need to examine this in a little more detail being that you are consigning a good portion of mankind to this punishment that you say means only a few will be saved..

As I'm sure you know, the NT books were written in Greek , or in some cases, in Aramaic and then translated into Greek. The NT writers often quote from the OT...usually from the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT that was used widely during the time of Christ.

In Hebrews 1:8, the author quotes from Psalm 45:6. "Olam" is translated by the Greek word "aion". (age-during). Compare Hebrews 5:6 and Psalm 110:4. This is the closest Greek equivalent and therefore was used in the Septuagint. So...we can safely say that aion is meant to convey the same meaning as the Hebrew concept of olam.

One of the most obvious NT verses where aion refers to an age is in Matt. 13 where Jesus is interpreting his own parables. In order to show the contrast between aion and kosmos, have a look at vs. 38:
And the field is the world (kosmos) ; and for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one, (39) and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age (aion); and the reapers are angels. (40) Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. (aion).
The KJ version says "the end of the world" but verses 39 and 40 should read AGE rather than "world".

Ages have both a beginning and end. Heb. 11:3 says : (3) by faith we understand that the worlds (aionas, "ages") were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. [I]Aionas is simply the plural of aion in the Greek. It says God "framed" the ages; therefore the ages had a beginning. This is also witnessed in Heb. 1:2:

(2) In these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world (aionas, "ages")
The author of Hebrews is telling us that Jesus created the ages of time. Time didn't exist before creation...it is a created thing. Paul makes reference to a promise of God that He made BEFORE time began. Titus 1:2:

(2) In the hope of eternal (aionian) life, which god, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago (pro chronon aionion, "before the ages began")

Here is Young's literal translation:
(2) upon the hope of life age-enduring, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages.

Many have interpreted this as a reference to immortality, but strictly speaking it is a specific promise of immortality IN THE TABERNACLES AGE given to those who inherit Life in the FIRST resurrection.(not the general resurrection at the end of the thousand years.) These are the "few" who are chosen...the overcomers/barley company/first fruits/Bride who "rule and reign" with Him during the Tabernacle Age. Jesus obtained the FACT of salvation for all men, but the TIMING of salvation differs and depends on which squadron (Greek: tagma) one is in. 1 Cor. 15:22 and 23 say:

(22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (23) But each in his own order.

The first "squadron" are called to "rule and reign" with Him (Rev. 20:4-6) The second group are those raised along with unbelievers (John 5:28, 29; Luke 12:46) at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-13) The second group misses the 1st resurrection and are "saved yet so as through fire". (1 Cor. 3:15). The 3rd group are the unbelievers, after their time of judgement has been completed, for there WILL be a Jubilee at the end of time according to the Law, wherein ALL creation will be set free in the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Rom. 8:21)

The "Upward call of God" that Paul refers to in Phil. 3:11 is described as being the "out-resurrection" (exanastasis). It's the only time in the NT that he puts an "ex" in front of the usual word for resurrection. (anastasis).


Here are some examples of "olam" from the OT that clearly show it is referring to an "age" and not eternity:

In Jonah 2:6, the prophet is praying for deliverance out of the belly of the great fish: (6) I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its bars was around me forever (OLAM), but thou has brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my god. Obviously he was only in the belly of the fish for 3 days and 3 nights.

Here are a few from the Psalms , should you wish to study it further. Ps. 78:66, 79:13, 86:12, 89:1, 110:4, 112:6, 115:8.

There is a distinction between Universalism and Restorationism. This is a quote from Dr. Stephen Jones who coined the phrase "Restorationism": Universalism makes no provision for judgement, or accountability for past actions and renders spiritual growth as unnecessary and irrelevant in the end. Restorationism recognizes the reality and seriousness of sin, pays its full penalty as the law demands for the ultimate reconcilliation of creation, yet saves believers by faith and unbelievers through judments, discipline and spiritual growth.

The judgements of God are established in the Law. There is NO sin worth of torture in a literal fire. The Jubilee law limited the time of enslavement and disinheritance to a max. of 49 years. (Lev. 25:10). The justice of God does not include endless punishment and neither does the Grace of God come without justice.

[kathryn]

David: ello Kathryn and Charisma

With interest I have been reading your comments. I would have posted earlier but it took some time to get registered and approved. I see now that this dialogue between you is probably coming to its end.

As you will see from the number of posts, this is my first post on the forum. My intention is always to impart the Truth of God’s Word as I understand it and comes as a result of studying God’s Word for many years. God’s Word does not change; only our understanding of it changes. It is difficult to write short reply and not make it like sound bites. I do not want to start a different line of argument here and do not expect to be agreed nor do I not want to start a new line of argument. I have to state God’s Truth as I understand it.


A hearty welcome to the forum, David!

Looking forward to your participation!

[heb13-13]

A more plausible explanation of Satan needs to be understood. Unlike human nature, God’s Holy Angels do as God instructs them and has given them power to do; God’s Holy Angels do not have the choice to obey or not.

Hey David,

Welcome!

You are referring to the doctrine of Theodicy. Why was there an origination of evil and where did it come from if God is Good and there is no evil in Him? Here is a little bit from the Divine Drama of Love.

From Act 3:

God is a God of LOVE who never gives up on man. He is not against us, or 'out to get us' and 'make us pay.'

Now that doesn’t mean that there are not consequences of our choices, but these should be understood as consequences of our choices, rather than punitive consequences that God imposes. Yes, God’s love can be a 'tough love' that holds us accountable for our choices.

We must not conceive of God as a devil who demands his due. Christian theology is sadly in need of a theodicy (an understanding of the origin of evil) that recognizes that death, and hell, and sin, and ungodliness and corruption are derived ek diabolos, 'out of the devil.' They are not to be blamed directly on God.

We can hear God’s heart of Love in the garden when He asked Eve, 'What is this you have done?' Behind the question one can almost detect the pain of betrayal.

But God respected their choice to reject Him. He allowed mankind to unite with the one who is 'a liar and the father of lies' (Jn. 8:44). He allowed the originator of sin, the 'god of this fallen world' (II Cor. 4:4), 'the prince of the power of the air,' to be the spirit-being who 'worked in the sons of disobedience' (Eph. 2:2).

The drama continued. Cain killed Abel because he derived what he did from the devil 'who was a murderer from the beginning' (Jn. 8:44; I Jn. 3:12). The dramas on the side-stages got more selfish and more sordid. At one point God’s heart
was so grieved that He said, 'I’m sorry I ever made them' (Gen. 6:6).

Yet, all the time, because God IS Love, He kept pursuing those He had made for His love. Though many times they promised that they loved God, they were repeatedly unfaithful, time and again.

The prophets came voicing God’s loving heart in their messages:

Isaiah 25:6-8 - 'the Lord of Hosts will prepare a banquet of rich fare for all the peoples...the Lord will swallow up that veil that shrouds all the peoples, the pall thrown over all the nations; he will swallow up death for ever. Then the Lord God will wipe away the tears from every face and remove the reproach of his people from the whole earth.'

Isa. 30:18 - 'the Lord is waiting to show you His favour; He yearns to have pity on you.'

Isa. 66:18 - 'I shall come to gather all nations and races, and they shall come and see My glory.'

Hosea 11:1 - 'When Israel was a boy, I loved him; I called my son out of Egypt; but the more I called, the further they went from me; ... It was I who taught Ephraim to walk, I who had taken them in my arms; but they did not know...that I led them with bonds of love – that I had lifted them like a little child to My cheek, that I had bent down to feed them

Hosea 14:4 - 'I will heal their apostasy; of My own bounty I will love them'

Malachi 1:2 - 'I have loved you,' says the Lord. But you say, 'How hast Thou loved us?'

Malachi 3:13,14 - 'You have used hard words about Me,' says the Lord, and then you ask, 'How have we spoken against Thee?' You have said, 'It is useless to serve God; what do we gain from the Lord of Hosts by observing His rules and behaving with deference?' (Last page of Old Testament).

Then there were 400 years of relative silence. It almost appeared that the curtain had come down on the Divine Drama – that the love relationships was not being pursued by God or man.

From Act 2:


The issue in Act One is that God is Love. The issue in Act Two is 'others', for love must flow to 'others'. The phrase 'the heavens and the earth' is broad enough to include heavenly beings or angelic beings. Such creatures are not specifically addressed in Genesis 1, but they are alluded to elsewhere in Scripture, as we shall see.

The eternal Triune God of Love is inclusive. He is not exclusive, trying to 'cut others out'. He desires to invite 'others' to
participate in His interaction. That is what Love does! He wants to draw 'others' into the joy, and the laughter, and the love of Trinitarian relationships.

God created a 'heavenly host' of 'others' – spirit beings who could participate in the relationalism of interactive Trinitarian Love. Since love cannot be forced or coerced, these created heavenly/angelic beings were created with freedom of choice. They were free to choose to spurn and reject the love of God.

Lucifer, the 'light-bearer', chose to do just that. The Scriptural evidence is somewhat sketchy, as God did not see fit to give us all the details of the angelic betrayal and divorce, but we can look at some of the Scriptures that were recorded:

Isa. 14:12-15 (KJV) – 'How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, who didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I will be like the Most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to Sheol, to the sides of the pit.'

II Pet. 2:4 - 'God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment...'

Jude 6 - 'And the angels who kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.'

John Milton, in his classic of English Literature, Paradise Lost, captures the imagery of the great betrayal of God’s Love.

'Author of evil, unknown till thy revolt ...
How hast thou disturbed
Heaven’s blessed peace, and unto Nature brought
Misery, uncreated till the crime
Of thy rebellion. How hast thou instilled
Thy malice into thousands, once upright
And faithful, now proved false
...
Heaven casts thee out.'



Lucifer, the 'light-bearer', created to bear the Light and Love of God Himself, became Satan, the devil, the Evil One, by his choice to reject the Love of God. What prompted him to do this? Where did he come up with such an idea? We do not know. This is the great puzzle of theodicy. This angel was not tempted by another. So, this was not the derivation of evil and selfishness from another, but the origination of evil. Lucifer chose to spurn the Love of God, to attempt to become 'like the Most High God' (a 'power-trip'), and in so doing became the origin and personification of all self-oriented evil. He became the opposite of love – selfishness. He had the 'I-disease' - 'I will be like the Most High God.'

What Lucifer really did was to call into question the very character of God – to question and deny that God’s love was unconditional, unselfish, and totally other-oriented. 'God does not love like that.' 'God is selfish!' 'God is holding
something back from us.' And he convinced a host of other heavenly beings to join him in the rejection of God’s Love.

What have we seen in Act Two? God’s loving relationship with heavenly beings is spurned. The love relationship God desired with these angelic 'others' was rejected. There was a betrayal. A great divorce took place. But this was an important part of the drama – the necessary opposite was introduced.

The 6-parts of the Divine Drama are quite good, if you want to have a look.
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/divinedrama.html

All the best,
Rick

[David M]

Hello Rick

thank you for your long reply, but I was not thinking of Theodicy. I do not agree that God does not give up on people. The Bible is explicit that He does. God knows men's hearts and what they are capable of. For example, God did not harden Pharaoh's heart at the time of the plagues but God did things whereby Pharaoh hardened his own heart. This is how God rules in the Kingdoms of men. God does not need a Satan (as falsely taught) to do His work or make men and women more corrupt than they are already. Men and women influence one antother by the things they do and say. Who knows what seeds God plants in the minds of people in order to bring about His purpose and prove to those who believe and watch that God is ruling in the kingdoms of men.

God says; "I create evil" as I have already quoted in my first post. The nature of God must include all his attributes. God can instruct His Holy Angels to do work that can be construed as Satan's work, but this is an Angel obeying God. Angels " do His will in Heaven" as well doing His will on earth. It is only men and women who do not the will of God. The wonderful achievement of the Lord Jesus Christ was that he overcame the devil (the propensity to sin) that is in all of us. God proved that with the right guidance it was possible for a man who was not God but was conceived by God to live a sinless life.


God's kingdom is not divided which it would be if Satan is a fallen Angel. A more plausible explanation does not include fallen Angels. This subject can be the start of new thread. God is fulfilling His plan and purpose and will thwart the evil acts of man. I see no place for a fallen Angel to be Satan. I can see how the personification of the Devil or Satan is a convenient way of likening how this evil spirit within disperate human beings can be likened to acting in the World. Personification should be recognized for what it is.

For now, God does give up on people; here are a couple of quotes referring to reprobates; Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. These are people who will not be invited into the Kindgdom of God to come.

To believe God will save everyone is believing in Universalism which is the reason I joined this thread and have already given my reasons as to why this cannot be true.

I will try to reason everything from the Bible rather than refer to literature which is not of God.

It is good to hear your response, but what you have quoted does not lead me to think differently.

It will be interesting to see what others think.

Thanks once again.

David

[Charisma]

Hi David,

Thanks for weighing in here. I'm not sure whether I will reply in detail, just yet, as I owe Kathryn a response first.

But, I wonder whether your two beliefs - 1) in Jesus not being God, and 2) not in an external (to the heart of man) spiritual authority called Satan, makes you a Christadelphian?

Or, something else?

Or, you simply don't find grounds for either of these in the thesis you prefer, despite the evidence scripture offers that Jesus is God, and, that Satan is a free roaming spirit of ill intent towards God and His creations?

[Charisma]

Hello Kathryn,

Sorry so long getting back to reply.

Originally posted by Kathryn
'I realize you take your doctrine from the surface Charisma.'

Originally posted by Charisma

That doesn't make it shallow.

'It is fine to believe God is going to do what He says He is going to do....and you can (and do) find a whole host of scripture to back it up...but if it doesn't witness to His purposes and character in His Law...its man made doctrine.'

This I can agree.

Romans 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]: ) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

As Paul moves on through his argument, he is at pains to connect his thesis to that of Isaiah's. The centrality of believing in Jesus Christ as the only means to salvation is his main theme throughout the Roman epistle. How does this differ from 'His purpose and character in His Law'?

I don't find that doctrine in scripture either, and I don't believe universalism is the solution to the problem.

The problem is the in the stubbornness (imagination) and idolatry (unbelief) of those who refuse to come to Jesus Christ in an appropriately contrite condition of heart, acknowledging their need of Him as the Door to eternal life. The victory over sin and death which Jesus wrought is an incalculable treasure to those who lay hold on it. But for those who don't lay hold on it, it remains outside their experience. And Jesus Himself said they would be accounted as sinners for not having believed on Him.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

In other words, the only way for a person to be freed from their burden of sin - that which condemns them - is through faith in Jesus Christ.

John 3: 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

God already poured His heart out to mankind in Jesus Christ. He has already destroyed generation after generation who would not keep His Law. He brought the necessity for all thoses death to an end, in the death of His Son Jesus. God can do no more. He doesn't need to.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

I don't know what to say to the above Charisma. I'm really not sure what you're trying to convey to me. Sorry!

All I am trying to show is, there are two groups of people - those who hear and believe, and those who hear and don't believe.

What is troubling about Universalism is its willingness to make God's judgements from the garden of Eden onwards, seem unnecessary. The fact is, God judged sin in Christ Jesus, and the only place for salvation from sin is IN Christ Jesus.

Those people who opt to remain outside Christ Jesus cannot expect to saved, and for Universalism to conjure a rearrangement of cosmic facts according to its own discomfort with eternal justice, is the kind of lying to the unsaved which God detests - crying 'Peace' where there is none.

There is a distinction between Universalism and Restorationism. This is a quote from Dr. Stephen Jones who coined the phrase "Restorationism": Universalism makes no provision for judgement, or accountability for past actions and renders spiritual growth as unnecessary and irrelevant in the end. Restorationism recognizes the reality and seriousness of sin, pays its full penalty as the law demands for the ultimate reconcilliation of creation, yet saves believers by faith and unbelievers through judments, discipline and spiritual growth.

Interesting. Thank you for explaining the difference he sees.

I suppose if you believe this then you can ignore all the same reasons against it, for which Universalism should be ruled out.

Now, please, show at least two scriptures each, (especially quoting Jesus Christ, the Prophet of the New Covenant), for the salvation of unbelievers 'through' 'judgements', 'discipline' and 'spiritual growth'?


Thank you.


I have more to reply to the rest of your post, and will follow up with tonight.

[Charisma]

Hi Kathryn,

Please bear with this long post, because I can't see where to break it up - although I could have quoted less scripture in full; but I quote scripture for the sake of those world-wide who may not have a Bible of their own, so that they may fully follow the discussion.

It has been helpful for myself to work through this topic, so I thank you for your patience, and trust it is useful for you also. There is one section of your post I have not dealt with - the order you propose in the resurrection. This seemed like a large topic, and I'm not at this stage fully ready to engage it, but do feel free to explain with scripture, why you have accepted Dr Jones' thesis on these things. (I know why I don't.)

Good Morning Charisma....You've brought up more than one topic here...so I will comment one at a time so the posts aren't too long. You did use several verses pertaining to the "everlasting nature" of punishment. I think we need to examine this in a little more detail being that you are consigning a good portion of mankind to this punishment that you say means only a few will be saved..

As I'm sure you know, the NT books were written in Greek , or in some cases, in Aramaic and then translated into Greek. The NT writers often quote from the OT...usually from the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT that was used widely during the time of Christ.

In Hebrews 1:8, the author quotes from Psalm 45:6. "Olam" is translated by the Greek word "aion". (age-during). Compare Hebrews 5:6 and Psalm 110:4. This is the closest Greek equivalent and therefore was used in the Septuagint. So...we can safely say that aion is meant to convey the same meaning as the Hebrew concept of olam.

One of the most obvious NT verses where aion refers to an age is in Matt. 13 where Jesus is interpreting his own parables. In order to show the contrast between aion and kosmos, have a look at vs. 38:
And the field is the world (kosmos) ; and for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one, (39) and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age (aion); and the reapers are angels. (40) Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. (aion).
The KJ version says "the end of the world" but verses 39 and 40 should read AGE rather than "world".

Ages have both a beginning and end. Heb. 11:3 says : (3) by faith we understand that the worlds (aionas, "ages") were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. [I]Aionas is simply the plural of aion in the Greek. It says God "framed" the ages; therefore the ages had a beginning. This is also witnessed in Heb. 1:2:

(2) In these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world (aionas, "ages")
The author of Hebrews is telling us that Jesus created the ages of time. Time didn't exist before creation...it is a created thing. Paul makes reference to a promise of God that He made BEFORE time began. Titus 1:2:

(2) In the hope of eternal (aionian) life, which god, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago (pro chronon aionion, "before the ages began")

Here is Young's literal translation:
(2) upon the hope of life age-enduring, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages.

I know that time is created, and without it there would be no 'ages'. In that respect, I agree that the use of 'everlasting' and 'eternal' as a means of describing 'time' is not helpful.

I said: 'It seems to me in light of these verses, that 'everlasting' or 'eternal' life, is a quality of life which is not terminated by the end of an age.'

Are your references to 'ages' really in answer to my use of 'eternal' + life and 'everlasting' + life, or, do you think the Bible is telling us about 'life' which is limited by the 'age' in which it is experienced by the believer?

If I had said 'the life of God in the believer' (as I do further down this post) would that have been a better choice of words on my part?

The 'life' that is 'in God', which comes to believers through the Holy Spirit (wherby we cry, 'Abba, Father'), is not in the same category as time, though; whichever 'age' is in progress (in relation to time), the life of God is separate from that, (although we know that 'God's life' is operating within time, space and place, in our experience). Please tell me if you agree with this or not, thanks.


Moving on to 1 Corinthians 15:23 - 'Each in his own order' I want to draw to your attention the context in which Paul makes the statement, as he is setting it against those who will not be 'in Christ', and who will not experience resurrection to 'life'.

Young's Literal Translation

20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became, 21 for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead, 22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, 23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, 24 then--the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power-- 25 for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet-- 26 the last enemy is done away--death; 27 for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, 28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

Who do you believe are the Christ's enemies, to whom Paul refers?

According to Restorationism, it cannot be possible that God is going to destroy them, so, do you believe Paul is lying, here?

The first "squadron" are called to "rule and reign" with Him (Rev. 20:4-6) The second group are those raised along with unbelievers (John 5:28, 29; Luke 12:46) at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-13) The second group misses the 1st resurrection and are "saved yet so as through fire". (1 Cor. 3:15). The 3rd group are the unbelievers, after their time of judgement has been completed, for there WILL be a Jubilee at the end of time according to the Law, wherein ALL creation will be set free in the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Rom. 8:21)

Beginning with the last clause of the last sentence, Romans 8:21 is accepted. Apart from the redemption of our bodies, we are already in 'the glorious liberty of the children of God' - according to Hebrews 10:14, at least.

The clause before that, leaves Restorationism with many questions. Here is Romans 7:4 through to Romans 8:9: (YLT)

4 So that, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of the Christ, for your becoming another's, who out of the dead was raised up, that we might bear fruit to God; 5 for when we were in the flesh, the passions of the sins, that [are] through the law, were working in our members, to bear fruit to the death; 6 and now we have ceased from the law, that being dead in which we were held, so that we may serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter. 7 What, then, shall we say? the law [is] sin? let it not be! but the sin I did not know except through law, for also the covetousness I had not known if the law had not said: 8 `Thou shalt not covet;' and the sin having received an opportunity, through the command, did work in me all covetousness--for apart from law sin is dead. 9 And I was alive apart from law once, and the command having come, the sin revived, and I died; 10 and the command that [is] for life, this was found by me for death; 11 for the sin, having received an opportunity, through the command, did deceive me, and through it did slay [me]; 12 so that the law, indeed, [is] holy, and the command holy, and righteous, and good. 13 That which is good then, to me hath it become death? let it not be! but the sin, that it might appear sin, through the good, working death to me, that the sin might become exceeding sinful through the command, 14 for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin; 15 for that which I work, I do not acknowledge; for not what I will, this I practise, but what I hate, this I do. 16 And if what I do not will, this I do, I consent to the law that [it is] good, 17 and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me, 18 for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find, 19 for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise. 20 And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me. 21 I find, then, the law, that when I desire to do what is right, with me the evil is present, 22 for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man, 23 and I behold another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin that [is] in my members. 24 A wretched man I [am]! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin. 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit; 2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death; 3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit; 6 for the mind of the flesh [is] death, and the mind of the Spirit--life and peace; 7 because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself, 8 for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God. 9 And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His;

What you seem to have said is, that 'the children of God' with the rest of creation will enjoy a jubilee, but meanwhile, those who never believed in Jesus Christ, will be receiving restorative justice for the unbelief during their lifetimes, despite that they can never become Christ's.

So, what is the point of that, if they deliberately passed up their opportunity to become sons of God when it was offered to them as a free gift?

At what point will they have served their restorative sentence?

Who will decide that they've been corrected and restored sufficiently to be counted as worthy of bearing Christ's name as those in Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,
and by the word of their testimony;
and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Frankly, I don't see it. Unless you can show me good strong evidence in the New Testament, Dr Jones' solution isn't even as good as the Law's, where at least there was a Day of Atonement every year, when sins not specifically listed under the other terms, were also covered by blood. That lack of blood in Dr Jones' Restorationism is flat out against the whole Book, where there is blood in the garden of Eden, right up till the cross, and then Jesus cried, 'It is finished!' He may try to lay the sins of unbelievers to Christ's blood in retrospect, but that would be to contradict the message of the whole New Testament, in which 'today is the day of salvation' - not yesterday.


Hebrews 10:3 (YLT) but in those [sacrifices] is a remembrance of sins every year, 4 for it is impossible for blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

12 And He, for sin one sacrifice having offered--to the end, did sit down on the right hand of God, -- 13 as to the rest, expecting till He may place his enemies [as] his footstool, 14 for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified; 15 and testify to us also doth the Holy Spirit, for after that He hath said before, 16 `This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, giving My laws on their hearts, and upon their minds I will write them,' 17 and `their sins and their lawlessness I will remember no more;' 18 and where forgiveness of these [is], there is no more offering for sin.

Can you see that if there is no blood in the Millennial kingdom, because God has finished with it through Jesus Christ's death, then the sins of those who do not believe in Christ, cannot be mitigated one tiny bit (according to God's own 'law')? The day of salvation is finished for them. If their sins were not forgiven before they died, they cannot be forgiven afterwards.

Hebrews 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment. Here - in making up something to follow the judgement, Dr Jones has made up his own religion, with no foundation in God's book - even though he draw together a construction of Bible verses to support his proposal.


Let's look at the context of 1 Corinthians 3: (KJV)

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

The above verses are describing only believers. Even believers who defile the temple of God will be destroyed. Can you see that? The believers who built with flimsy materials - saved by fire - come through the fire on their standing with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Here is ... Phillips Brooks (1835-1893), The Law of Growth [1902]

Slowly, all through the universe, that temple of God is
being built. Wherever, in any world, a soul, by free-willed
obedience, catches the fire of God's likeness, it is set into
the growing walls, a living stone. When, in your hard fight,
in your tiresome drudgery, or in your terrible temptation, you
catch the purpose of your being and give yourself to God, and
so give Him the chance to give Himself to you, your life -- a
living stone -- is taken up and set into that growing wall.
Wherever souls are being tried and ripened, in whatever
commonplace and homely ways, there God is hewing out the
pillars for His temple. Oh, if the stone can only have some
vision of the temple of which it is to be a part forever, what
patience must fill it as it feels the blows of the hammer, and
knows that success for it is simply to let itself be wrought
into what shape the Master wills.

1 Kings 6:7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe [nor] any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.

This verse above militates against the preparation of a soul after death. The work is done early, that we be ready for our Lord when He comes.


Luke 12:46 the lord of that servant will come in a day in which he doth not look for [him], and in an hour that he doth not know, and will cut him off, and his portion with the unfaithful he will appoint.
You seem to be suggesting that the 'unfaithful' have a means of salvation 'in Christ'?


These questions may seem tiresome, but even if you don't answer them for me, I hope you will ask yourself just how much weight you can put in Dr Jones' ideas with respect to your own salvation.

I have listened to quite a few of the free tapes on his website, and I concluded that although the confidence he exudes is beguiling, especially when buttressed by much Bible knowledge, his departures from God's demonstrated and unmistakable requirement for blood to cover sin in the OT, and for Christ's blood to wash sin from the soul in the NT, are just that - beguilding. God's ample and merciful provisions cannot be over-ridden for the souls who do not or did not choose to go free of all punishment for sin during the season God has ordained for them to comply with those provisions - namely, their ordinary natural lifetime. These are the only ways the general penalty of death for sin could be removed in the experience of the believer.

And what of all the prophets who died giving God's word? What of Jesus Christ Himself, 'that Prophet', dying as a servant to the whole human race? Are we to rubbish the sacrifices of these men, by lowering the bar below God's legal limit - FAITH? Now we are to accept a kind of fleshly righteousness, which is merely a different kind of law-keeping, not God's Law (at that) who through His prophet Isaiah said, 'all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags'. Again I ask, who is going to decide when a sinner has been purified sufficiently to be 'saved', separate from the blood of the eternal sacrifice, Jesus Christ our Passover Lamb?

If the Law (kept perfectly by people like Paul, and many others) did not 'save' Paul, then Dr Jones' prescription for 'restorative' justice is a fabrication, found no-where in scripture. In fact, Dr Jones' method is more cruel than God's - for those who actively chose eternal death are to be forced into an unchosen relationship with Him - which God neither attempts nor desires, according to the OT.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

All I am trying to show is, there are two groups of people - those who hear and believe, and those who hear and don't believe.

What is troubling about Universalism is its willingness to make God's judgements from the garden of Eden onwards, seem unnecessary. The fact is, God judged sin in Christ Jesus, and the only place for salvation from sin is IN Christ Jesus.

Those people who opt to remain outside Christ Jesus cannot expect to saved, and for Universalism to conjure a rearrangement of cosmic facts according to its own discomfort with eternal justice, is the kind of lying to the unsaved which God detests - crying 'Peace' where there is none.

Interesting. Thank you for explaining the difference he sees.

I suppose if you believe this then you can ignore all the same reasons against it, for which Universalism should be ruled out.

Now, please, show at least two scriptures each, (especially quoting Jesus Christ, the Prophet of the New Covenant), for the salvation of unbelievers 'through' 'judgements', 'discipline' and 'spiritual growth'?

Hi folks,

Charisma is right. There are only two kinds of people: Those who believe that Ultimate Reality (God) is non-dual, and those who don't!

I am, of course, of the former group. I believe Ultimate Reality (God) is Unity. The perception of Reality as dual is a state of consciousness that is only a fragment of the Vision of the Divine Unity of All. It is interesting that the duality of good and evil play a central role in the biblical explanation of our "fall" into this fragmented state of consciousness (Genesis 3). This explains why we feel separate from God. We are failing to see God as the all in all.

The Bible speaks of God as the "all in all" but there are those who dispute the meaning of that phrase. I think the fullest interpretation has a lot of support because there are other descriptions that cohere with the same idea, such as Christ being the Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End, First and Last. Those are "all encompassing" terms. And God is said to "work all in all" (1 Cor 12:6). And Christ is said to "fill all in all" (Eph 1:23). Thus we have many biblical witnesses supporting this concept, and beyond that we have the witness of our own minds since the best definition of God is the "Ground of Being" in whom we "live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28). This is why the LXX translated I AM THAT I AM as "HO ONTOS" meaning "THE BEING" (Exodus 3:14). This is an essential meaning of the word "God" in my worldview.

And beyond all those reasons, many mystics (myself included) have directly experienced "God" as the Ground of Being, the All in All of Perfect Love and Universal Consciousness.

I'm not trying to convince, but rather to explain, my worldview and to help folks here expand their views and consider other possibilities. And if nothing else, knowing this view (the Perennial Philosophy) should be very helpful to everyone here since it is a major worldview, and I expect you all will be encountering it more frequently as more people wake up to its truth.

Richard

[kathryn]

Hi folks,

Charisma is right. There are only two kinds of people: Those who believe that Ultimate Reality (God) is non-dual, and those who don't!

I am, of course, of the former group. I believe Ultimate Reality (God) is Unity. The perception of Reality as dual is a state of consciousness that is only a fragment of the Vision of the Divine Unity of All. It is interesting that the duality of good and evil play a central role in the biblical explanation of our "fall" into this fragmented state of consciousness (Genesis 3). This explains why we feel separate from God. We are failing to see God as the all in all.

The Bible speaks of God as the "all in all" but there are those who dispute the meaning of that phrase. I think the fullest interpretation has a lot of support because there are other descriptions that cohere with the same idea, such as Christ being the Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End, First and Last. Those are "all encompassing" terms. And God is said to "work all in all" (1 Cor 12:6). And Christ is said to "fill all in all" (Eph 1:23). Thus we have many biblical witnesses supporting this concept, and beyond that we have the witness of our own minds since the best definition of God is the "Ground of Being" in whom we "live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28). This is why the LXX translated I AM THAT I AM as "HO ONTOS" meaning "THE BEING" (Exodus 3:14). This is an essential meaning of the word "God" in my worldview.

And beyond all those reasons, many mystics (myself included) have directly experienced "God" as the Ground of Being, the All in All of Perfect Love and Universal Consciousness.

I'm not trying to convince, but rather to explain, my worldview and to help folks here expand their views and consider other possibilities. And if nothing else, knowing this view (the Perennial Philosophy) should be very helpful to everyone here since it is a major worldview, and I expect you all will be encountering it more frequently as more people wake up to its truth.

Richard

Charisma and Rick....I'm letting Richard's post speak for me here and am going to respectfully bow out of this conversation. All the best...Kathryn