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Thread: Demons

  1. #201
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    Demons

    Hi Kathryn,

    To Rick, you said (amongst other things)
    I've already showed you how such a concept violates His Law
    (The concept being 'roast in eternal fire' in your words.)

    So, I have a question for you, to answer (if you would be so kind) with 'yes' or 'no'. Have you read Deuteronomy from cover to cover?

    Thanks in advance.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Good afternoon, Kathryn,

    I haven't read all of your replies yet, but this is at the top of a page, so I thought I'd quickly respond.

    About the OT saints (just as an example), I mentioned it to correct the statement which, had I not mentioned it, would have been open to dispute. Not every thing I'm going to say (in my posts), is a direct rejection of things you've said, although some may well be. I'm hoping we don't disagree about everything! But I know too, that unless I offer you a context in which to understand a statement which may seem to be contrary to something you think you've said, you can't really hold it against the template of scripture in the same way as I believe I am.
    (I hope that reads okay. If it's not clear, please say so and I'll try a different way to explain what I mean.)

    I have not done a whole-Bible study on 'eternal' and 'everlasting', but mostly they mean the same thing, which Young translates as 'age-during'.

    I didn't mention torment or hell - but Jesus does - a lot of times.
    Hi there Charisma...thanks for the definition...and yes, Jesus does mention hell, but not in the manner much of the church interprets it to mean, and particularily as "age-during".
    Last edited by kathryn; 01-08-2012 at 01:10 PM.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Kathryn,

    To Rick, you said (amongst other things)
    (The concept being 'roast in eternal fire' in your words.)

    So, I have a question for you, to answer (if you would be so kind) with 'yes' or 'no'. Have you read Deuteronomy from cover to cover?

    Thanks in advance.
    Yes, I have Charisma. Why do you ask?
    all the best,
    Kathryn

  4. #204
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    Demons

    Hi Kathryn,

    I ask because I wonder if you think God doesn't mean what He says about the curses which were to come upon those (many) who did not obey His voice?

    Perhaps you could say something about how you understand that option (being cursed and or killed for their disobedience), which God gave at the same time as He commanded 'life for evermore' to those few who would obey Him, please?

    Additionally, do you believe those whom God killed for their disobedience, will also be saved at the resurrection? (If so, how does that work?)

    Thanks again.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  5. #205
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    Demons

    Hi Charisma....
    ...and everyone will go through the Baptism of Fire. There is not one person who will have any "self" left by the time this has completed.
    Please could you lay out the scriptures from which you get this meaning?

    Thanks again.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Please could you lay out the scriptures from which you get this meaning?

    Thanks again.
    Hey Kathryn,

    Just to make things quick. I am in agreement with Charisma so far (including her answers to your questions).

    Blessings to you,
    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

    Answering the Skeptics Bible

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Kathryn,

    I ask because I wonder if you think God doesn't mean what He says about the curses which were to come upon those (many) who did not obey His voice?

    Perhaps you could say something about how you understand that option (being cursed and or killed for their disobedience), which God gave at the same time as He commanded 'life for evermore' to those few who would obey Him, please?


    Additionally, do you believe those whom God killed for their disobedience, will also be saved at the resurrection? (If so, how does that work?)

    Thanks again.
    Hi Charisma...first of all, we have to understand that God does not judge apart from Love, which is who He is. The Law was called the "fiery" law and the biblical meaning of fire is clearly a symbol of cleansing and purification. It is always restorative. As the early church leader, Clement of Alexandria wrote in the second century:

    "Fire is conceived of as a beneficent and strong power, destroying what is base, preserving what is good; therefore this fire is called "wise" by the prophets.
    Punishment is, in its operation, like medicine; it dissolves the hard heart, purges away the filth of uncleaness, and reduces the swellings of pride and haughtiness; thus restoring its subject to a sound and healthful state"
    (did you know Charisma, that for a few hundred years after Jesus, the majority of the church believed in the salvation of all mankind? It wasn't until the early part of the 5th century that the view of sinners being punished endlessly became popular)

    I believe all will be saved yes, but that isn't to say there isn't a reckoning and a punishment after death and the judgement. All I'm saying is that it is not eternal punishment and it is always restorative.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Please could you lay out the scriptures from which you get this meaning?

    Thanks again.
    Hi Charisma...Chapter 12 of Luke should be a good start. Jesus said in Luke 12:49 that He had come to "send fire on earth"...but the whole chapter also describes the judgement/punishment issue as well:

    http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Data...ontext=Yes#v49

    There are many types in the OT that confirm this Baptism of Fire but I will leave it at this for now.

  9. #209
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    Demons

    Hi Kathryn,

    I'm finding it easier to take your replies one by one. The original post I made is on p20.
    No one is eternally cut off....
    Leaving aside John 12:32 which you placed between the two sentences I've retained to discuss, 'no-one is eternally cut off', is like saying a person is not really dead when they die. To be 'cut off' in God's terminology does mean 'for ever' - however many ages that will be. As Rick reminded us, there are going to be some people whose names are not in the book of life (tree of life, as some mss have.)

    1 Samuel 25:29 Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, [as out] of the middle of a sling.



    Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.



    Psalm 52:1 Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God [endureth] continually.
    2 Thy tongue deviseth mischiefs; like a sharp razor, working deceitfully.
    3 Thou lovest evil more than good; [and] lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah.
    4 Thou lovest all devouring words, O [thou] deceitful tongue.
    5 God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of [thy] dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah.
    6 The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him:
    7 Lo, [this is] the man [that] made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, [and] strengthened himself in his wickedness.
    8 But I [am] like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
    9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done [it]: and I will wait on thy name; for [it is] good before thy saints.



    You are twisting scripture to suit your doctrine.
    I don't think so, perhaps needless to say. I take my doctrine of the surface of the pages of scripture. When God says He's going to cut off a person for a particular kind of sin, I simply believe that's what He'll do. You rely heavily on the use of the word 'all', but you separate it from all qualifying contexts, and that's more than problematic; it's unsound interpretation.

    Here are further texts to raise question marks beside your belief that all men will be saved.

    Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.



    Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.



    Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.



    Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.





    Then, there is this chapter from Ezekiel, which speaks for itself. Please read the whole, not just the verses I've hightlighted.

    Ezekiel 13:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; {that prophesy out...: Heb. that are prophets out of their own hearts} 3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! {follow: Heb. walk after} {and...: or, and things which they have not seen} 4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. 5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD. {gaps: or, breaches} {made...: Heb. hedged the hedge} 6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made [others] to hope that they would confirm the word. 7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith [it]; albeit I have not spoken? 8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I [am] against you, saith the Lord GOD. 9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD. {assembly: or, secret, or, counsel} 10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and [there was] no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered [morter]: {a wall: or, a slight wall} 11 Say unto them which daub [it] with untempered [morter], that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend [it]. 12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where [is] the daubing wherewith ye have daubed [it]? 13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend [it] with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in [my] fury to consume [it]. 14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered [morter], and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD. 15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered [morter], and will say unto you, The wall [is] no [more], neither they that daubed it; 16 [To wit], the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and [there is] no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

    17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them, 18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the [women] that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive [that come] unto you? {armholes: or, elbows} 19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear [your] lies? 20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make [them] fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, [even] the souls that ye hunt to make [them] fly. {to make...: or, into gardens} 21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD. 22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: {by...: or, that I should save his life: Heb. by quickening him} 23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.




    22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad;
    and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life.


    v 22 completely states how I feel about the doctrine of universalism; it contradicts so much scripture, it is impossible for me to believe God intends this interpretation.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  10. #210
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    You are twisting scripture to suit your doctrine.
    I don't think so, perhaps needless to say. I take my doctrine of the surface of the pages of scripture. When God says He's going to cut off a person for a particular kind of sin, I simply believe that's what He'll do. You rely heavily on the use of the word 'all', but you separate it from all qualifying contexts, and that's more than problematic; it's unsound interpretation.


    Yes...I realize you take your doctrine from the surface Charisma. That's a major part of the problem here. It is fine to believe God is going to do what He says He is going to do....and you can (and do) find a whole host of scripture to back it up...but if it doesn't witness to His purposes and character in His Law...its man made doctrine. God's Law is clear...judgement is always in direct proportion to the sin...an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Restitution payments are always figured mathematically and are a multiple of the crime.(Ex. 22: 1-4) Jesus paid the debt for the sin of all mankind and it required 3 days in death. Between these two witnesses, where do we find the doctrine that man pays more for his sins than Jesus did for ALL sin?

    Could you please tell me your understanding of the Book of Life? Thank you.
    Last edited by kathryn; 01-09-2012 at 09:40 AM.

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