Demons

[Beck]

Now, I understand if these people in the modern age (whoever you are talking about) don't believe in demons and the powers of darkness then they will of course say that it is psychological. You can be an expert then in any century without having to time travel to it. You can just say all presumed demonic problems have always been psychological. Is this the reasoning of the "modern age" that you are talking about? That these people think Satan and demons are myths and so everything must either be psychological or chemical?

Rick

Hi Rick,

That's a good question and in part that is one reason I wanted to search the scriptures to find out just what is written about demons and the power of darkness. As I grouped two categories of Possessed and Captivity together. There's seems to indicate that at least captivity indicates the fight against being overtaken by the power of darkness.

Now what seems to me is that alot of these terms we used to describe like 'darkness' has a deeper meaning. I mean in the sence of it's symbolize something else. Here 'darkness' in scripture indicates the same as being 'blind' or being 'asleep' in the 'night' as Paul alludes to in 1 Thess.5:4

This has little to nothing to do with being demon possessed or does it? This captivity is seem to be the ones that are hold in the darkness of disbelief of which Jesus said he came to free.

In the case of Mark 8:28-34/ Luke 8:26-40 'Demons are casted into swine' there seems to me to be a greater meaning rather than reading this as a literal event, it rather seems to speak of a parable of sort.

The unclean spirits (demons) plead with Christ that he cast them not into the sea. Again 'sea' is a symbol to denote 'peoples'. Could there be a relationship in that the unclean spirits are a symbol of those that speak evil which disbelieve to those children of Ephriam that are driven into the sea of the Gentiles?

As to some would declare that Jesus when speaking in Luke 16 'Rich man and Lazarus' is a literal event, but to carries many of the same symbol's of a parable. Which relates to the Rich man as Judah and Lazarus as Eliezer to denote 'not my people' will be called my people the children of Ephriam. So you see there can be an alternative view of demons.

[heb13-13]

That's a good question and in part that is one reason I wanted to search the scriptures to find out just what is written about demons and the power of darkness. As I grouped two categories of Possessed and Captivity together. There's seems to indicate that at least captivity indicates the fight against being overtaken by the power of darkness.

Now what seems to me is that alot of these terms we used to describe like 'darkness' has a deeper meaning. I mean in the sence of it's symbolize something else. Here 'darkness' in scripture indicates the same as being 'blind' or being 'asleep' in the 'night' as Paul alludes to in 1 Thess.5:4

This has little to nothing to do with being demon possessed or does it? This captivity is seem to be the ones that are hold in the darkness of disbelief of which Jesus said he came to free.

Hi Beck,

I think it is a great topic. God is supernatural and the Bible is a supernatural book. We have already found out that some think it is all psychological while some see it literally and believe it truly is some entity or spirit that is possessing people. Now why are you differentiating between "possession" and "captivity"? I don't understand.

In the case of Mark 8:28-34/ Luke 8:26-40 'Demons are casted into swine' there seems to me to be a greater meaning rather than reading this as a literal event, it rather seems to speak of a parable of sort.

I think this reveals that demon spirits seek for a body and don't want to be cast into outer darkness. A human body, perferably.

The unclean spirits (demons) plead with Christ that he cast them not into the sea. Again 'sea' is a symbol to denote 'peoples'.

Depending on the context "sea" does not necessarily have to mean people. In this instance, I don't think it does. Demons seek for a body, to give them "rest".

Could there be a relationship in that the unclean spirits are a symbol of those that speak evil which disbelieve to those children of Ephriam that are driven into the sea of the Gentiles?

I think you are stretching it a bit here.

As to some would declare that Jesus when speaking in Luke 16 'Rich man and Lazarus' is a literal event, but to carries many of the same symbol's of a parable. Which relates to the Rich man as Judah and Lazarus as Eliezer to denote 'not my people' will be called my people the children of Ephriam. So you see there can be an alternative view of demons.

Ok, I understand where you are coming from. Then we have two alternative views of demons, now. One is psychological problems and the other is that the events were not real, just stories or parables to illustrate a teaching.

I think I got it,

Thanks,
Rick

[Beck]

Hi Beck,

Now why are you differentiating between "possession" and "captivity"? I don't understand.

Rick,

I wanted to show the difference in how the 'possession' is described ( tareth him, he formeth, fallen into fire and water) while captivity relates to ( spiritually blind, alseep and apostasy). In the first one is an outward sign of a demonic possession while the last is an inward sign of demonic possession.

Lets take into consideration 2 Timothy 3:6 which speaks of coming apostasy that men shall fall way from sound doctrine to which is described as 'they that creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, lead away with divers lusts.' He connects this in verses 13 to speak of evil men and seducers shall wax worse deceiving and being deceived.

Isn't this the same message that Jude related about those false teachers as 'angels' better translated as 'messengers' that are hold in darkness unto the judgment day (.v6) That darkness indicates not being able to see the light.(truth)

So should we not understand the meaning of demon captivity as being decevied by false teachers and these false teacher are considered having a unclean spirit. In cases like Revelation 2 of the church Thyatira having allowed the spirit of Jezebel of fornication.

I think this reveals that demon spirits seek for a body and don't want to be cast into outer darkness. A human body, perferably.



Depending on the context "sea" does not necessarily have to mean people. In this instance, I don't think it does. Demons seek for a body, to give them "rest".

In one place I believe Luke there's a reference to 'deep' that they didn't want to be casted into. Deep is abysso 'bottomless pit'. So they didn't wanted Jesus to cast them into the pit before their time was up.

I think you are stretching it a bit here.

Just thinking out loud.

Ok, I understand where you are coming from. Then we have two alternative views of demons, now. One is psychological problems and the other is that the events were not real, just stories or parables to illustrate a teaching.

I think I got it,

Thanks,
Rick

Yes the latter one of parables to illustrate a teaching is some what compelling to me.

[heb13-13]

Rick,

I wanted to show the difference in how the 'possession' is described ( tareth him, he formeth, fallen into fire and water) while captivity relates to ( spiritually blind, alseep and apostasy). In the first one is an outward sign of a demonic possession while the last is an inward sign of demonic possession.

Lets take into consideration 2 Timothy 3:6 which speaks of coming apostasy that men shall fall way from sound doctrine to which is described as 'they that creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, lead away with divers lusts.' He connects this in verses 13 to speak of evil men and seducers shall wax worse deceiving and being deceived.

Isn't this the same message that Jude related about those false teachers as 'angels' better translated as 'messengers' that are hold in darkness unto the judgment day (.v6) That darkness indicates not being able to see the light.(truth)

So should we not understand the meaning of demon captivity as being decevied by false teachers and these false teacher are considered having a unclean spirit. In cases like Revelation 2 of the church Thyatira having allowed the spirit of Jezebel of fornication.




In one place I believe Luke there's a reference to 'deep' that they didn't want to be casted into. Deep is abysso 'bottomless pit'. So they didn't wanted Jesus to cast them into the pit before their time was up.



Just thinking out loud.



Yes the latter one of parables to illustrate a teaching is some what compelling to me.

Hi there Beck,

Really appreciate your replies and good spirit. I understand "thinking out loud" and hope you were not offended when I said "it seems like a stretch". It is late where I am from but I wanted to acknowledge your post. I plan on responding tomorrow. Let's dig into this.

Cheers,
Rick

[CWH]

Hi Rose,

How does the "modern age" know that these "demonic" manifestations in the 1st century were different types of psychological disorders?

If modern drugs cured the individual today why do they have to stay on the drugs? Modern drugs only suppress the manifestations by suppressing the individual (bringing them into a passive state).

But, I would really like to know how someone in the "modern age" can confidently know that the people in the 1st century had psychological problems and not demonic possession? By the way, demon oppression and possession will give you psychological problems.

Now, I understand if these people in the modern age (whoever you are talking about) don't believe in demons and the powers of darkness then they will of course say that it is psychological. You can be an expert then in any century without having to time travel to it. You can just say all presumed demonic problems have always been psychological. Is this the reasoning of the "modern age" that you are talking about? That these people think Satan and demons are myths and so everything must either be psychological or chemical?

Thanks for your reply and glad you had a memorable Anniversay.
Rick

Hi Rick,

Being a medical person, I could easily "diagnose" some diseases as stated in the Bible. Some are easily diagnosed as in leprosy; you will know a leper when you see one and a mad person when you see one. In ancient days, people attributed diseases to evil spirits and demons due to lack of understanding in the cause of diseases and came out with "cures" such as exorcism etc. As such I agree with Rose. I have special interest in how Jesus cured the sick, cast out demons and raised the dead. From my years of Bible study, there are 2 categories of the cause of diseases in the Bible:

1) Evil spirits which in modern day terms. we call them pathogens which include bacteria, virus, fungi. These are evil because they are bad and spirits because they cannot be seen with the naked eyes as spirits are unseen "beings". Bacteria, fungi, viruses are too microscopic to be seen by the naked eyes.

2) Demons which in modern day terms are causes of diseases other than through pathogens as as hormones, chemicals etc. They are call demons because they cause troubles. Many of these diseases also cause changes in their mental status rsulting in delirium as if being possessed or controlled by another being or person known as a "demon".

3) There are instances in the Bible in which one can have evil spirits and be demon possessed. I take it to mean diseases caused by pathogens resulting with signs of delirium or altered mental status. The example of the boy with the deaf and dumb spirit since birth and foaming in his mouth seems to suggest from my medical point of view to be mental retardation with epilepsy. The epilepsy since childhood could be a result of meningitis or febrile fits which caused the mental retardation.

The cures that Jesus used based on my highly speculative views are:

1) Radiation therapy - We know that radiation are used to treat many illnesses such as cancer, skin diseases etc. Xrays have been used in diagnosis. We also know that ultra-violet radiation can kill germs, fungi and viruses but also normal cells. Imagine if we could used ultra-violet radiation to kill all these pathogens yet without killing normal cells then we have an excellent treatment whereby all diseases caused by pathogens can be instantly cured within a few seconds by subjecting a sick patient to intense ultraviolet radiation. In the Gospel, it was mentioned that even the shadows of Jesus could cure illness.

2) Electro or electromagnetic therapy - Electro-shock therapy has been used to treat depression, pain and cardiac arrest. Electromagnetic equipment has been used to diagnosed diseases as in MRI. I suspect this or some form of energy was used by Jesus to cure the sick and raise the dead. Electroshock therapy requires one to touch the patient physically in order to administer the treatment. Perhaps, someone can discover a way to use Electrocution as a therapy by electrocuting the germs, viruses and fungi without electrocuting the body and cells. Electromagnetism therapy needs to be close to the patient but needs no physical contact in order to administer the electro-magnetism. This has been seen in the Gospel whereby Jesus had to touch the patient in order to cure the illness or raise the dead. In one instance, Jesus spat onto some earth to make into a poltice and applied to the eyes of a blind man. I believe the poltice helped to keep the treatment energy in situ at the blind eyes for sometime for the treatment to be effective as the blind man was told to wash at the pool of Siloam.

John 9:
10 'How then were your eyes opened?' they asked.
11 He replied, 'The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and then I could see.'

Mark 5:
A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25 And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 because she thought, 'If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.' 29 Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

30 At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, 'Who touched my clothes?'


3) Instant stem cells - How did Jesus attached a severed ear or cured a disfigured leper instantly? I would imagine someone applying a sort of powerful stem cells that worked instantly when applied to the affected area to repair damaged cells.

4) Jesus could also used a combination of several of the stated therapies.

Luke 22:
49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, 'Lord, should we strike with our swords?' 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered, 'No more of this!' And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

See my explanation of evil spirit as stated in the Gospel found in my thread:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...-and-swine-flu


In the modern world, we all know that many diseases caused by "evil spirit" are caused by germs which include viruses, bacteria, fungus. I have found an interesting topic for discussion in Matthew 12 :43-45 in which Lord Jesus uses the analogy of evil sprit and compared it with the wicked generation:

43"When an evil[a] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

Using the interpretation of evil spirit = germs, this is what I get:
"When germs is discharged from a person (through cough, sneezing, body fluids), it travels through the air and other media to lie dormant and wait to infect a suitable host. When the germs can't find any, it tries to re-infect the original host. When the germs found the original host already cured but still capable of being re-infected (perhaps the host is still weak), it gets several other virulent types of germs to propagate and evolve itself to become a new more virulent and resistant strain (so as to re-infect the original host). The original host will become more sick than he was before when he is re-infected. This is analogy of how this wicked generation will become more wicked."

This is what happened with swine flu The swine flu evolved from several flu virus strains from pigs, human and birds and become a new virulent and resistant strain worse than what it formerly was.


May God blessed us with His wisdom. In Jesus name.

[Charisma]

Hi Beck,

Thanks for your reply. Sorry it's taken a while to get back to this thread. I'm a bit of a one track person and I didn't want to start here because it's a huge topic. I do have experience and understanding to add, but I know if you're going to stick to the letter of the written word in the Bible, it is not possible to construct a truly practical and working doctrine from both the point of view of the person experiencing demon molestation (whether a transient state like Saul's or a residential intruder like some of those whom Jesus delivered), and the person seeking the Lord for wisdom as to how to lead the person to permanent freedom from demon molestation.

Is there a connection in this unclean spirit and nakedness symbolically?

If you look in scripture for 'naked' you will find it associated with disobedience (a doorway to devils), an activity/lust of the flesh contrary to God's direction and/or design (a doorway to devils), and, idolatry (including worship of a named devil) - which can be self-worship, worship of the human form, whether male or female, adult or child, or, some other physical or mental image of a created being or attribute.

Demons individually are extremely limited. They are all liars, and each has one main string to their bow. They like open flesh - wounds, weaknesses, selfishness.

Okay. I'm not going to write more for the moment, as if you are really going to understand this as a minister of the gospel, you must realise the importance of loving the person with the wound, the weakness, and the natural selfishness which the Lord Jesus Christ came to rectify. Doctrine is never about knowledge and learning, but about how to become pleasing to God in our hearts, minds, strengths, our spirits and our souls.

[Rose]

Hi Rick,

Being a medical person, I could easily "diagnose" some diseases as stated in the Bible. Some are easily diagnosed as in leprosy; you will know a leper when you see one and a mad person when you see one. In ancient days, people attributed diseases to evil spirits and demons due to lack of understanding in the cause of diseases and came out with "cures" such as exorcism etc. As such I agree with Rose. I have special interest in how Jesus cured the sick, cast out demons and raised the dead. From my years of Bible study, there are 2 categories of the cause of diseases in the Bible:

1) Evil spirits which in modern day terms. we call them pathogens which include bacteria, virus, fungi. These are evil because they are bad and spirits because they cannot be seen with the naked eyes as spirits are unseen "beings". Bacteria, fungi, viruses are too microscopic to be seen by the naked eyes.

2) Demons which in modern day terms are causes of diseases other than through pathogens as as hormones, chemicals etc. They are call demons because they cause troubles. Many of these diseases also cause changes in their mental status rsulting in delirium as if being possessed or controlled by another being or person known as a "demon".

3) There are instances in the Bible in which one can have evil spirits and be demon possessed. I take it to mean diseases caused by pathogens resulting with signs of delirium or altered mental status. The example of the boy with the deaf and dumb spirit since birth and foaming in his mouth seems to suggest from my medical point of view to be mental retardation with epilepsy. The epilepsy since childhood could be a result of meningitis or febrile fits which caused the mental retardation.

The cures that Jesus used based on my highly speculative views are:

1) Radiation therapy - We know that radiation are used to treat many illnesses such as cancer, skin diseases etc. Xrays have been used in diagnosis. We also know that ultra-violet radiation can kill germs, fungi and viruses but also normal cells. Imagine if we could used ultra-violet radiation to kill all these pathogens yet without killing normal cells then we have an excellent treatment whereby all diseases caused by pathogens can be instantly cured within a few seconds by subjecting a sick patient to intense ultraviolet radiation. In the Gospel, it was mentioned that even the shadows of Jesus could cure illness.

2) Electro or electromagnetic therapy - Electro-shock therapy has been used to treat depression, pain and cardiac arrest. Electromagnetic equipment has been used to diagnosed diseases as in MRI. I suspect this or some form of energy was used by Jesus to cure the sick and raise the dead. Electroshock therapy requires one to touch the patient physically in order to administer the treatment. Electromagnetism therapy needs to be close to the patient but needs no physical contact in order to administer the electro-magnetism. This has been seen in the Gospel whereby Jesus had to touch the patient in order to cure the illness or raise the dead. In one instance, Jesus spat onto some earth to make into a poltice and applied to the eyes of a blind man. I believe the poltice helped to keep the treatment energy in situ at the blind eyes for sometime for the treatment to be effective as the blind man was told to wash at the pool of Siloam.

John 9:
10 'How then were your eyes opened?' they asked.
11 He replied, 'The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and then I could see.'

Mark 5:
A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25 And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 because she thought, 'If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.' 29 Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

30 At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, 'Who touched my clothes?'


3) Instant stem cells - How did Jesus attached a severed ear or cured a disfigured leper instantly? I would imagine someone applying a sort of powerful stem cells that worked instantly when applied to the affected area to repair damaged cells.

4) Jesus could also used a combination of several of the stated therapies.

Luke 22:
49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, 'Lord, should we strike with our swords?' 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered, 'No more of this!' And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

See my explanation of evil spirit as stated in the Gospel found in my thread:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...-and-swine-flu


In the modern world, we all know that many diseases caused by "evil spirit" are caused by germs which include viruses, bacteria, fungus. I have found an interesting topic for discussion in Matthew 12 :43-45 in which Lord Jesus uses the analogy of evil sprit and compared it with the wicked generation:

43"When an evil[a] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

Using the interpretation of evil spirit = germs, this is what I get:
"When germs is discharged from a person (through cough, sneezing, body fluids), it travels through the air and other media to lie dormant and wait to infect a suitable host. When the germs can't find any, it tries to re-infect the original host. When the germs found the original host already cured but still capable of being re-infected (perhaps the host is still weak), it gets several other virulent types of germs to propagate and evolve itself to become a new more virulent and resistant strain (so as to re-infect the original host). The original host will become more sick than he was before when he is re-infected. This is analogy of how this wicked generation will become more wicked."

This is what happened with swine flu The swine flu evolved from several flu virus strains from pigs, human and birds and become a new virulent and resistant strain worse than what it formerly was.


May God blessed us with His wisdom. In Jesus name.

Hi Cheow

Thank you for the very informative post... But it brings up two important questions. If Jesus cured the mentally sick folk with means such as radiation, why did he let them believe they were demon possessed? Secondly, why would you equate sickness with wickedness?

All the best,
Rose

[CWH]

Hi Cheow

Thank you for the very informative post... But it brings up two important questions. If Jesus cured the mentally sick folk with means such as radiation, why did he let them believe they were demon possessed? Secondly, why would you equate sickness with wickedness?

All the best,
Rose

Try explaining germs, viruses and fungi to primitive tribes in the Amazon jungle and see whether they understand you or not. People are fixed in their beliefs and superstitions in evil spirits and demons and will reject whatever explanations what more about those uneducated people in the 1st century and the primitive tribes in the Amazon jungle? Even the Pharisees who were experts of the Mosaic laws did not believe in Jesus and even His miracles which was why Jesus said that if they did not believe in earthly things, how would they believe in spiritual things?

I did not equate sickness with wickedness. What Jesus seemed to mean was that germs will develop stronger strains as they interact with other germs until they become very virulent. Same with evil or wickedness. Wickedness will continue to grow as it interacts with the wicked society Imagine yourself living in a city where robbery, stealing, cheating, lying is the norm, will you be influenced by these evils? I am sure you will do the likewise evils just as everyone in that sin city, something needs to be done before the situation in that sin city becomes worse and uncontrollable as more and more people becomes influenced ....right?

God Blessed our society.

[Beck]

Hi there Beck,

Really appreciate your replies and good spirit. I understand "thinking out loud" and hope you were not offended when I said "it seems like a stretch". It is late where I am from but I wanted to acknowledge your post. I plan on responding tomorrow. Let's dig into this.

Cheers,
Rick

Thanks Rick,

And no I wasn't at all offended, I look forward to your response.

[Beck]

Being a medical person, I could easily "diagnose" some diseases as stated in the Bible. Some are easily diagnosed as in leprosy; you will know a leper when you see one and a mad person when you see one. In ancient days, people attributed diseases to evil spirits and demons due to lack of understanding in the cause of diseases and came out with "cures" such as exorcism etc. As such I agree with Rose. I have special interest in how Jesus cured the sick, cast out demons and raised the dead. From my years of Bible study, there are 2 categories of the cause of diseases in the Bible:

Thanks CWH,

For giving us this point of view from a medical personal.

In the modern world, we all know that many diseases caused by "evil spirit" are caused by germs which include viruses, bacteria, fungus. I have found an interesting topic for discussion in Matthew 12 :43-45 in which Lord Jesus uses the analogy of evil sprit and compared it with the wicked generation:

43"When an evil[a] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

CWH I never knew this! That the modern world of today undertood that diseases was casued by evil spirits. I thought that then speaking of evil spirits it was addressing the flesh nature that urges us to give in to evil deeds those like;adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence ..etc.

And each of these would be a 'spirit' or an 'evil spirit' which can be rendered 'evil demon'. In the case of 'legion' there was many demons which could mean that they man had been possessed by many of the spirits (demons) For example he could been possessed by the spirits of adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred. This wold be a case where a man would be possessed by many evil spirits or demons.