Demons

[Rose]

And to everyone on the forum, members and guests...may your Christmas and the coming New Year be filled with the Love and Joy of God...!

Thank you Kathryn May you and your family also have a very wonderful Christmas!

Rose

[heb13-13]

Rick:
This is how the serpent of brass was a type of Christ. Whoever looked upon this serpent was healed. And Christ does not heal from punishment only, otherwise the analogy for healing loses its importance, but Jesus cleanses a man from the pollution of sin (corrupted morals). He heals the soul and restores it to health. This is true wholeness.

Hi Rick...Sorry for the delay. I have a houseful ! (17 family and 9 dogs!) If you don't mind, I'd like you to go a little farther in this type. How do you understand the use of "brass" in scripture? How is Christ a type of brass?

Hey Kathryn,

I understand, no need for apologies. So much for waiting after Christmas. We just can't stay away from each other.

Also...In the Genesis 3:15 verse that you included above
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel...

.could you explain what the "enmity" was...and how it crushes the head of the serpent's seed....and the "heel" or hinderpart of the woman's seed? What is the "head" of the serpent...and what is the hinderpart/heel of the woman? How does this fit with this description of the rod/serpent? :

The Seed of the Woman was Jesus born of Mary and there was enmity between Jesus and Satan.

Enmity = Satan actively opposed with much hostility the Son of God and anything or anyone that God loved.

On the cross of Calvary, the world government and religion bruised the heel of the Son of Man, Jesus (He could not be destroyed), but at the same time Jesus crushed the head of Satan, (destroying his works)taking upon Himself the death consequences of all men's sin. 1 John 3:8 says "the Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil." And Hebrews 2:14 goes on to say that "through death He (Jesus) rendered powerless the devil." The Lord Jesus Christ crushed the head of Satan and all we have today is the backlash of the tail ... still sqirming ... still rattling. But Satan is "done in" - conquered. That is why we refer to it as the "finished work" of Jesus Christ! And in our Christian experience, we see the backlash of the tail in the influence of the world, in the inner tendencies of the "flesh", in the patterns of sinfulness and selfishness in our soul. The apostle Paul wrote, 'The flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; they are opposites to one another' (Gal. 5:17). This refers to that same battle between Satan and God. When Christians try to fight against the flesh, suppress sin, and do battle with the devil, they are fighting a battle they cannot win – for it is not theirs to fight. 'The battle is the LORD’s' (I Sam. 17:47) … and the victory has already been won by the Lord Jesus Christ.

We can participate in His victory by faith, by allowing His indwelling Spirit to overcome our fleshly tendencies, habits, and addictions; by allowing His indwelling Spirit to wash over and envelop our spirit so completely that our desires and habits are transformed. The result of such transformation of mind and behavior is a testimony to the world, by which we 'prove (demonstrate, show forth) what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect' (Rom. 12:2).

The devil tries to prevent that transformation, of course. Satan is delighted by our confusion – when we try to fight against the flesh by our own strength and ingenuity. He knows that all our attempts by self-effort will ultimately fail.

What is the "tail" of the serpent of brass (as the Christ type) and why the tail and not the "head"? Where else in scripture do you find the concept of the "head" being "lifted up" and the "tail" becoming the "head"? How does that fit in the type?

The Tail represents fear as a tail of a snake cannot hurt anyone. That is why God told Moses to pick up the snake by the tail and not the head. The head represents what can really hurt and kill a person. But the tail is harmless. Satan's head was bruised and the prophetic came true. The Son of God was manifest to "destroy the works of the Devil." The tail can represent "lies" because it really cannot do anything except instill fear of hurt but not hurt itself. It can only cause you to hurt yourself by believing a "lie".

In Isaiah 9:15 false prophets were compared with the "tail" because they taught lies. It is true that if you believe the lie you are exchanging the truth of God.

Isa 9:15The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

There are only two natures in this life and we reflect one or the other. We either reflect the Nature of God or the Nature of Satan. There is not a third nature that we can manufacture.


"The Swiss theologian, Karl Barth, (especially in his earlier theological writings) referred to God as 'the Wholly Other,' who is wholly other than man, despite the
anthropomorphic portrayals by which our finite minds attempt to conceive of a personal God. Referring to God as 'wholly other' than man does not imply any deistic
detachment, but it indicates that deity and humanity are categories of 'being' completely distinct from one another.

God is God, and man is man!

There is a constitutional difference between God and man – the difference between the infinite Creator who has intrinsic Being in Himself and the finite creature who has
extrinsic created 'being' derived from the Creator‐God."
Jim Fowler

Please read "Frequently Asked Questions" by Jim Fowler on this page. http://www.christinyou.net/pages/pdf...tionsEbook.pdf
and his other books.
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/BOOKS.htm

I recently found Jim's site, www.christinyou.net and I must say it is an awesome breath of fresh air. I will be using many of his quotes as it seems he has dealt with many things that have been or are being discussed on BWF. And I really like the way he thinks! He does go against much of modern traditional Christian thought, however, but for the positive in my opinion. My understanding of Creation has changed thanks to him. That would be the Creation booklet (below). http://www.christinyou.net/pages/pdfs/CreationEbook.pdf

Have a great rest of the year. The Lord is marvelous!!

All the best,
Rick

[heb13-13]

Hi Everyone,

I modified my post before this one, a bit. Please look at the end of it. I posted some sources for my quotations. I have been incredibly blessed by Jim Fowler's site.

www.christinyou.net

What a great Christmas present!!

Rick

[heb13-13]

One more thing that I forgot.

Brass = Pride

Brass plaques on headstones and Hollywood walk of fame.

Saul's armor contained a helmet of brass (for the head).

1 Samuel 17:38
38 And Saul armed David with his armour, and he put an helmet of brass upon his head; also he armed him with a coat of mail.

Rick

[kathryn]

Hi Rick.....You didn't quite answer my questions as I asked them, so if you don't mind, I'm going to try to narrow this down again.

You mentioned that the "seed of woman" was Jesus. I don't disagree with this, but are you including all mankind in this?

Enmity...you said that it was hostility towards anyone God loved. Again...are you including all mankind ?

Where in scripture are you taking the understanding that the "tail" represents fear and that the tail is harmless? Where in scripture does this concept of the tail come from? Where is your understanding of satan in this...tail or head? Are you saying he is just a tail thrashing around? If so...when did the beheading take place?

You didn't mention what the heel/hinderpart of the woman was. Again...please show scripture specifically dealing with this in type.

I asked you where else in scripture/typology you found the "lifting up" concept of the "head".

You mentioned the "brass" helmet of Saul. I assume you are using Saul as a type of Christ in order to fit the type? If so...could you explain the difference between the Saul type and the Davidic type? Why would Saul be used in type, for the crucifixion? Saul committed suicide when he was overcome by his enemies.

David didn't wear a helmet or armor when he killed Goliath; in fact, specific mention is made that he chose not to...so why would brass (which also represents fetters, filthiness. lust, harlotry) be used to describe Christ who was lifted up to destroy the works of satan (of whom Goliath was a type)?

Why a serpent, for that matter?



Thanks Rick!

[heb13-13]

Hi Rick.....You didn't quite answer my questions as I asked them, so if you don't mind, I'm going to try to narrow this down again.

You mentioned that the "seed of woman" was Jesus. I don't disagree with this, but are you including all mankind in this?

Enmity...you said that it was hostility towards anyone God loved. Again...are you including all mankind ?

Where in scripture are you taking the understanding that the "tail" represents fear and that the tail is harmless? Where in scripture does this concept of the tail come from? Where is your understanding of satan in this...tail or head? Are you saying he is just a tail thrashing around? If so...when did the beheading take place?

You didn't mention what the heel/hinderpart of the woman was. Again...please show scripture specifically dealing with this in type.

I asked you where else in scripture/typology you found the "lifting up" concept of the "head".

You mentioned the "brass" helmet of Saul. I assume you are using Saul as a type of Christ in order to fit the type? If so...could you explain the difference between the Saul type and the Davidic type? Why would Saul be used in type, for the crucifixion? Saul committed suicide when he was overcome by his enemies.

David didn't wear a helmet or armor when he killed Goliath; in fact, specific mention is made that he chose not to...so why would brass (which also represents fetters, filthiness. lust, harlotry) be used to describe Christ who was lifted up to destroy the works of satan (of whom Goliath was a type)?

Why a serpent, for that matter?



Thanks Rick!

Hey Kat,

Finally found this post that you deserve an answer to. But, I am plum tuckered out now and going to take the kids to a movie. Yeah,,,, FUN.

Actually, I enjoy our give and take and sharpening of the swords.

Have a wonderful evening,
Rick

[heb13-13]

Hi Rick.....You didn't quite answer my questions as I asked them, so if you don't mind, I'm going to try to narrow this down again.

You mentioned that the "seed of woman" was Jesus. I don't disagree with this, but are you including all mankind in this?

Jesus is the "seed" of Abraham and He is the "seed of the woman" - Gen. 3:15

Paul views Heb. singular "seed" as a collective noun with both singular and plural implications
Gal. 3:16 - "He does not say "seeds", as referring to many, but rather to one,..that is Christ"
Gal. 3:19 - - "the seed to whom the promise had been made"

No, not including all mankind in this. The Scriptures do not include all mankind.

Christians who are "in Christ" are spiritual descendants of Abraham. "Christians" not in Christ are not spiritual descendants of Abraham.
Rom. 4:16 - "the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
"
Rom. 9:8 - "it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants"

Gal. 3:7 - "those who are of faith are sons of Abraham"
Gal. 3:29 - "if you belong to Christ, then you Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."
Gal. 4:28 - "children of promise"

Enmity...you said that it was hostility towards anyone God loved. Again...are you including all mankind?

Actually, I did say those He loved but the hostility is against those that love God). The non-christian is already hostile towards God so the enmity (hostility and animosity) is against Christ and those that are for Him (love Him).

Where in scripture are you taking the understanding that the "tail" represents fear and that the tail is harmless? Where in scripture does this concept of the tail come from?

Well, like you said God's creation teaches us things too and a snakes tail does not kill or destroy it only causes fear (which could be construed as lies). Looking at Revelation 12:4, "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born", Lucifer was able to sweep away a 3rd of the angels with his lies (join with me and we can overthrow God). Despite his rebellion he was limited sweeping away only a 3rd of the "stars" of heaven.

Where is your understanding of satan in this...tail or head? Are you saying he is just a tail thrashing around? If so...when did the beheading take place?

The "beheading" took place at Calvary when Jesus, an innocent and righteous man with no sin, was executed.
"The Son of God appeared that He might destroy the works of the devil" (I John 3:8),and "through death He rendered powerless the one having the power of death, that is the devil" (Heb. 2:14).

Throughout the Scriptures there is the image of a cosmic conflict between God and Satan, between good and evil. This is never portrayed as a dualism of equal powers (yin and yang), however, since God is omnipotent. "There was war in heaven" (Rev. 12:7) that caused "enmity between the serpent and the seed of woman" (Gen. 3:15), requiring that "the ruler of this world be cast out" (John 12:31).

The work of Christ accomplished victory over Satan. "He disarmed the rulers and authorities, having triumphed over them" (Col. 2:15). He is
"victorious over the beast" (Rev. 15:2). The Lion (Rev. 5:5) who is the Lamb (Rev. 17:14) has "overcome the world" (John 16:33) and the "Evil One" (I John 2:14). "He leads justice to victory" (Matt. 12:20). "Thanks be to God who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ" (I Cor. 15:57).

You didn't mention what the heel/hinderpart of the woman was. Again...please show scripture specifically dealing with this in type.

Jesus was only "bruised" not destroyed. That would be the bruise of the heel. Satan's works were destroyed and was rendered powerless to all those who put their trust in Christ.

Jesus was sinless and was raised from the dead. Those who crucified Jesus were the seed of the serpent in figure and their wounding of Jesus was not fatal, but was as described in the figure 'you shall bruise his heel'. A wound to the heel is not a fatal wound. Sinful man had no power over God's will and Jesus' sinlessness brought his redemption and salvation to those who believe and are obedient to God's commandments.

I asked you where else in scripture/typology you found the "lifting up" concept of the "head".

Why don't you go ahead and show me.

You mentioned the "brass" helmet of Saul. I assume you are using Saul as a type of Christ in order to fit the type? If so...could you explain the difference between the Saul type and the Davidic type? Why would Saul be used in type, for the crucifixion? Saul committed suicide when he was overcome by his enemies.

No, I was just illustrating that brass is a type of pride.

David didn't wear a helmet or armor when he killed Goliath; in fact, specific mention is made that he chose not to...so why would brass (which also represents fetters, filthiness. lust, harlotry) be used to describe Christ who was lifted up to destroy the works of satan (of whom Goliath was a type)?

See answer before this.

Thanks Rick!

Your welcome.
Rick

[kathryn]

Jesus is the "seed" of Abraham and He is the "seed of the woman" - Gen. 3:15

Paul views Heb. singular "seed" as a collective noun with both singular and plural implications
Gal. 3:16 - "He does not say "seeds", as referring to many, but rather to one,..that is Christ"
Gal. 3:19 - - "the seed to whom the promise had been made"

No, not including all mankind in this. The Scriptures do not include all mankind.

Hi Rick...it is "seed" singular, because there is only ONE man...the SECOND ADAM. All of mankind IS included in many other places in scripture.


Christians who are "in Christ" are spiritual descendants of Abraham. "Christians" not in Christ are not spiritual descendants of Abraham.
Rom. 4:16 - "the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
"
Rom. 9:8 - "it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants"

Gal. 3:7 - "those who are of faith are sons of Abraham"
Gal. 3:29 - "if you belong to Christ, then you Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."
Gal. 4:28 - "children of promise"

The process of separation was still taking place when Jesus came on the scene. (he came to bring division in order to pull down the dividing wall: two sides of one coin) The difference in understanding we have...is what God was separating. It wasn't mankind from one another...we're all children of the promise...it was separating the Holy from the profane, making the crooked, straight. (or..in the typology of the crossing of the Jordan, the UPPER waters from the LOWER waters. Water is both a symbol of life and death)

Hagar the bondwoman and her son, is the carnal mind/nature of man that keeps us in captivity and "her" offspring birthed from the "loins" of her mind/nature. Of course this is the result of our mortality and causes us to sin(or miss the mark of what was intended), but this is the whole purpose of the purification of the firstfruits. The firstfruits sanctify the REST of the crop. When the "head" crowns, the whole Body (harvest) follows. It happens in 3 stages...but it is all ONE Body...the 2nd Adam. Jesus was the FIRST of the firstfruits.

The firstfruits are shown in type, as the 12 who return to the midst of the Jordan and the Ark and bring out the 12 stones on their shoulders. (government). This is the "catching up to meet Christ in the "air". They don't leave earth...they "enter" the purified "midst" and bring back the authority/dominion/birthright restored to them by the 2nd Adam.


Actually, I did say those He loved but the hostility is against those that love God). The non-christian is already hostile towards God so the enmity (hostility and animosity) is against Christ and those that are for Him (love Him).

No...the enmity...or enemy is between the woman's seed(Body of Christ) and the old serpent's seed. It crushes her heel/ hinderpart (tail) and the head of the OLD serpent. What was the "tail" then becomes the HEAD...CHRIST. (or...the Head is joined to His Body. The "circuit" is completed...or returned to the source of power from which it left (in the garden). The tail or hinderpart of the "woman" is swallowed up..."death is swallowed up in Victory". The outer court of the temple/tabernacle represents our mortal body(and the hinderpart or tail):

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The dragon comes up from the "sea". Have you done a study on the laver/molten sea? Underneath it , on the stand, were the 12 oxen, representing the 12 tribes of Israel, with their hinderparts facing inwards in a circle. The circle or circuit (Galilee) is one of the most important types/symbols in scripture. It represents both the birth canal and the anus (hinderpart..tail) of the woman. I'm sure this will again be very foreign to you...but it isn't foreign to scripture. We're given our physical body as a type...both the comely and uncomely parts for a very good reason. It is key in understanding temple/tabernacle typology.



Well, like you said God's creation teaches us things too and a snakes tail does not kill or destroy it only causes fear (which could be construed as lies).yes...I realized you were doing this..and that's great. Looking at Revelation 12:4, "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born", Lucifer was able to sweep away a 3rd of the angels with his lies (join with me and we can overthrow God). Despite his rebellion he was limited sweeping away only a 3rd of the "stars" of heaven.

This is the cleansing of the 2nd heaven...or realm of the "air" where satan has been prince before the "birth". All of these images in Rev. carry a redemptive meaning...and are speaking of the process of restoration.



The "beheading" took place at Calvary when Jesus, an innocent and righteous man with no sin, was executed.
"The Son of God appeared that He might destroy the works of the devil" (I John 3:8),and "through death He rendered powerless the one having the power of death, that is the devil" (Heb. 2:14).

He did...but Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world....so satan was always a defeated foe...only used as a tool for a period of time.

Throughout the Scriptures there is the image of a cosmic conflict between God and Satan, between good and evil.

B]No...he was never a match for God Rick. WE have the battle with good and evil as long as we're eating from a divided doctrine...which is the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We are IN Christ and He gives US the Sword of the Spirit(Rhema/revelation) to deal with the head of the old serpent.

This dual "head" concept..the carnal head/mind and the HEAD or Mind of Christ is all through scripture. We see it in the story of Joseph who was imprisoned with the Baker and Butler. Joseph in prison is a type of the Body of Christ in the refinement process. The Baker is a type of our carnal mind/nature which must be placed in the" oven" to have the action of the leaven(iniquity) stopped. The Butler is the "cup bearer" or Holy Spirit/Mind of Christ.

Before the Feast of Pharaoh takes place..both the head of the Baker and the head of the Butler are "lifted up". The Baker is then hung (head severed from body) and the Butler/cup bearer RESTORED TO HIS ORIGINAL POSITION. We also see it in the parable of the tares and wheat. The two are planted as seeds...and left to grow side by side in the field. When they form HEADS...the tares are burnt, the wheat harvested into the barn. One remains, one is taken.

In levitical law...the donkey is a type of the church in the refinement process...before purification. It is a mixture...half mule, half horse...carnal/divine nature. The donkey had to be redeemed by a lamb or have its neck broken (as the Baker). Haman was a type of the carnal , as was Judas...both hung...or head severed from body in order that the TRUE HEAD can be restored.
[/B]
This is never portrayed as a dualism of equal powers (yin and yang), however, since God is omnipotent. "There was war in heaven" (Rev. 12:7) that caused "enmity between the serpent and the seed of woman" (Gen. 3:15), requiring that "the ruler of this world be cast out" (John 12:31).

The war has never been in the 3rd heaven where we are in Him, at the right hand of the Father. It's the 2nd heaven...between our ears.(or the "midst" of the two halves of the ONE animal, through which the smoking furnace and burning torch were passed, in the cutting of the Covenant)

The work of Christ accomplished victory over Satan. "He disarmed the rulers and authorities, having triumphed over them" (Col. 2:15). He is
"victorious over the beast" (Rev. 15:2). The Lion (Rev. 5:5) who is the Lamb (Rev. 17:14) has "overcome the world" (John 16:33) and the "Evil One" (I John 2:14). "He leads justice to victory" (Matt. 12:20). "Thanks be to God who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ" (I Cor. 15:57).

Amen!



Jesus was only "bruised" not destroyed. That would be the bruise of the heel. Satan's works were destroyed and was rendered powerless to all those who put their trust in Christ.

Jesus was sinless and was raised from the dead. Those who crucified Jesus were the seed of the serpent in figure and their wounding of Jesus was not fatal, but was as described in the figure 'you shall bruise his heel'. A wound to the heel is not a fatal wound. Sinful man had no power over God's will and Jesus' sinlessness brought his redemption and salvation to those who believe and are obedient to God's commandments.


Why don't you go ahead and show me.




No, I was just illustrating that brass is a type of pride. Fair enough...but you still haven't explained how a brass serpent is related to Christ. He was lifted up "as" a brass serpent in type.



See answer before this.




Your welcome.
Rick

[heb13-13]

Dear Kathryn,

There is so much I could say to your recent post and at the same time much that I would not comment on because I don't understand what you are saying. Confusion abounds and I see lots of mixture and there is so much of it that it seems a big task to separate (like a bird that got caught in an oil spill). So, I don't want to just keep going "tit for tat" with you or give you the impression that I am against YOU. I am not against YOU, just against (if you want to use that word) some of your concepts and teachings. I would very much appreciate it if you would allow me to gracefully bow out of this conversation? The other consideration is that there are so many other posts I would like to devote some time to and I have not been able to.

Maybe, in perusing your teachings along the way, something may "click".


Most kindly,
Rick

[kathryn]

Dear Kathryn,

There is so much I could say to your recent post and at the same time much that I would not comment on because I don't understand what you are saying. Confusion abounds and I see lots of mixture and there is so much of it that it seems a big task to separate (like a bird that got caught in an oil spill). So, I don't want to just keep going "tit for tat" with you or give you the impression that I am against YOU. I am not against YOU, just against (if you want to use that word) some of your concepts and teachings. I would very much appreciate it if you would allow me to gracefully bow out of this conversation? The other consideration is that there are so many other posts I would like to devote some time to and I have not been able to.

Maybe, in perusing your teachings along the way, something may "click".


Most kindly,
Rick

Of course you can bow out Rick. I realize it's a lot and probably foreign to many. Good luck with your studies! Kathryn