Demons

[Charisma]

Hi Kathryn,

There are two points I wish to raise and address by way of further refuting universalism.

The first point, was picked up from reading the words of a universalist who seemed to believe that God, in calling us into sonship, intends to give us the same qualities and status as Jesus Christ - which this man took to mean we can do what we like; we can make things, decide things, change things, seemingly without reference to the Father. Basically, we would be gods. (I may have misnderstood, but, I don't think so.)

As this is the very situation Jesus came to challenge, I cannot agree that when God makes, calls and treats us as sons, it will look in any way different (in spiritual meaning) than it did for Jesus, except for the very obvious, (repeated more than once in scripture) difference that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, the Creator, and we are His creations. He formed us from the dust. And, despite that Jesus took upon Him the likeness of sinful flesh, He was, nevertheless, without sin, the spotless Lamb of God. These we will never be. The cross we are called to embrace does a different work in us, than Christ's cross, although both contain that element of the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God. (Acts 2:23)

Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth.
Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10 Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?


The second point I wish to discuss is Israel, in Isaiah 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. Here we have that word 'all' again, but we also have the qualifying phrase, 'in the Lord', which parallels 'in Christ', in meaning.

Remembering that Jacob means twister, and that God put him through a long and relentless transformation process, and yet was not satisfied with him, the difference it made to Jacob - despite all the supernatural occurrences through which he had lived - to wrestle with the angel at Penuel, was that he'd had his own transforming (physically damaging) revelation of God, and a personal conversation with Him. Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. {Peniel: that is, The face of God} 31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh. Jacob had made a deal with God twenty years earlier, and they had both kept their side of the contract. Therefore, when Isaiah later says the Redeemer shall come to Sion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob (59:20) the use of the name 'Jacob' signifies the natural state of men, because Israel (God prevails) signifies the understanding of a spiritual man. 'The seed of Israel', then, is about more than natural descendency, and this is what Paul is at pains to explain in Romans 9.

Those naturally descended from Jacob, in becoming known as 'the children of Israel', knew that they were calling upon God for the blessing He had promised those who obey His voice, but their history, as predicted by Moses, bore out that many of their hearts were unwilling to yield to Him. As an example, the time of Elijah is well-documented, when God had reserved to Himself only seven thousand men who had not capitulated to Baal. The many kings who 'made Israel to sin', in various kinds of idolatry, brought God's wrath, and usually destruction, on the whole population.

Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises; 5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


I think it's valid to ask why Paul quotes Isaiah again, about being 'ashamed'? Is it not because Jesus said: Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. This is the reason Paul states at the beginning of the Roman epistle he is not ashamed of having believed on the stone which the builders rejected. Jesus Himself said: Matthew 21:'... Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

How do you explain the salvation of those who have been ground to powder by the Lord Himself? Would it not be fighting against God?

[kathryn]

Hi Charisma....if you don't mind, I'll leave commenting on your post above. We have enough differences without going there at the moment. Let's stick to one topic at a time. I would really like to know how you understand the Book of Life and how you come to your understanding.

[Charisma]

Hello Kathryn,

I'm on p21, beginning to answer your replies.

Hi Charisma...first of all, we have to understand that God does not judge apart from Love, which is who He is. The Law was called the "fiery" law and the biblical meaning of fire is clearly a symbol of cleansing and purification. It is always restorative. As the early church leader, Clement of Alexandria wrote in the second century:

"Fire is conceived of as a beneficent and strong power, destroying what is base, preserving what is good; therefore this fire is called "wise" by the prophets.
Punishment is, in its operation, like medicine; it dissolves the hard heart, purges away the filth of uncleaness, and reduces the swellings of pride and haughtiness; thus restoring its subject to a sound and healthful state" (did you know Charisma, that for a few hundred years after Jesus, the majority of the church believed in the salvation of all mankind? It wasn't until the early part of the 5th century that the view of sinners being punished endlessly became popular)

I believe all will be saved yes, but that isn't to say there isn't a reckoning and a punishment after death and the judgement. All I'm saying is that it is not eternal punishment and it is always restorative.

'did you know Charisma, that for a few hundred years after Jesus, the majority of the church believed in the salvation of all mankind?'

No I didn't - in the way your question reads - but it could be argued that so does God believe in the salvation of all mankind - and it's all mankind that is at fault for not believing in the Saviour by whom He had reconciled the world to Himself.

You said of the Law: 'It is always restorative'. Is that what you would say to the widow of a man who had been put to death legitimately under the Law? Please explain to me how he had been restored by the operation of the Law?

'we have to understand that God does not judge apart from Love'.

Of course this is true. But His love does not over-rule His other qualities - like Light, Life, Truth, and holiness - which are all perfectly integrated in God, along with His freedom to exercise righteous anger, wrath, vengeance and instantaneous judgement.

The OT has several instances of those who died instantly after disobeying an instruction. In what way did God's 'love' restore them?

[Charisma]

Originally posted by Kathryn,
...and everyone will go through the Baptism of Fire. There is not one person who will have any "self" left by the time this has completed.

Originally posted by Charisma
Please could you lay out the scriptures from which you get this meaning?

Hi Charisma...Chapter 12 of Luke should be a good start. Jesus said in Luke 12:49 that He had come to "send fire on earth"...but the whole chapter also describes the judgement/punishment issue as well:

http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Data...ontext=Yes#v49

There are many types in the OT that confirm this Baptism of Fire but I will leave it at this for now.

Hi Kathryn,

You really have not answered the question. One chapter in the NT and a vague sweeping of the arm over the Old, is not a laying out of the scriptures from which is derived a doctrine of such serious consequences to those who embrace it; nor does it amply give account of those scriptures which it seems to contradict.

If there is a pattern in scripture, it is that the life of Jesus Christ fully fulfilled the types and shadows in the OT. The problem found with the statements you make is not their plausibility, but their implausibility when placed against the whole Book.

In the end, you don't have to convince me, or Rick, or anyone of why you believe what you believe, and I don't blame you at all for wanting to not have to spend hours explaining it, only to find we are still in disagreement. But, for myself, I need to challenge the basis on which anyone can believe what you've expressed so far, because Jesus Himself came preaching the gospel of repentance, and He is the only way to escape the wrath to come. This (that I've just written) is not a minority view in the NT. Peter, John and Paul are in complete agreement about it.

For you, or anyone, to put forward a view which is so different, that the necessity of the fulfilment of the OT which Jesus Christ accomplished, is then rendered pointless, is the main problem, (and you rarely mention Jesus). It's as if He needn't have existed for your doctrines to stand.

[Charisma]

You are twisting scripture to suit your doctrine.
I don't think so, perhaps needless to say. I take my doctrine of the surface of the pages of scripture. When God says He's going to cut off a person for a particular kind of sin, I simply believe that's what He'll do. You rely heavily on the use of the word 'all', but you separate it from all qualifying contexts, and that's more than problematic; it's unsound interpretation.


Yes...I realize you take your doctrine from the surface Charisma. That's a major part of the problem here. It is fine to believe God is going to do what He says He is going to do....and you can (and do) find a whole host of scripture to back it up...but if it doesn't witness to His purposes and character in His Law...its man made doctrine. God's Law is clear...judgement is always in direct proportion to the sin...an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Restitution payments are always figured mathematically and are a multiple of the crime.(Ex. 22: 1-4) Jesus paid the debt for the sin of all mankind and it required 3 days in death. Between these two witnesses, where do we find the doctrine that man pays more for his sins than Jesus did for ALL sin?

Could you please tell me your understanding of the Book of Life? Thank you.

'I realize you take your doctrine from the surface Charisma.' That doesn't make it shallow.

'It is fine to believe God is going to do what He says He is going to do....and you can (and do) find a whole host of scripture to back it up...but if it doesn't witness to His purposes and character in His Law...its man made doctrine.' This I can agree.

Romans 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]: ) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

As Paul moves on through his argument, he is at pains to connect his thesis to that of Isaiah's. The centrality of believing in Jesus Christ as the only means to salvation is his main theme throughout the Roman epistle. How does this differ from 'His purpose and character in His Law'?

God's Law is clear...judgement is always in direct proportion to the sin...an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Restitution payments are always figured mathematically and are a multiple of the crime.(Ex. 22: 1-4) Jesus paid the debt for the sin of all mankind and it required 3 days in death. Between these two witnesses, where do we find the doctrine that man pays more for his sins than Jesus did for ALL sin?

I don't find that doctrine in scripture either, and I don't believe universalism is the solution to the problem.

The problem is the in the stubbornness (imagination) and idolatry (unbelief) of those who refuse to come to Jesus Christ in an appropriately contrite condition of heart, acknowledging their need of Him as the Door to eternal life. The victory over sin and death which Jesus wrought is an incalculable treasure to those who lay hold on it. But for those who don't lay hold on it, it remains outside their experience. And Jesus Himself said they would be accounted as sinners for not having believed on Him.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

In other words, the only way for a person to be freed from their burden of sin - that which condemns them - is through faith in Jesus Christ.

John 3: 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

God already poured His heart out to mankind in Jesus Christ. He has already destroyed generation after generation who would not keep His Law. He brought the necessity for all thoses death to an end, in the death of His Son Jesus. God can do no more. He doesn't need to.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[kathryn]

Hello Kathryn,

I'm on p21, beginning to answer your replies.

'did you know Charisma, that for a few hundred years after Jesus, the majority of the church believed in the salvation of all mankind?'

No I didn't - in the way your question reads - but it could be argued that so does God believe in the salvation of all mankind - and it's all mankind that is at fault for not believing in the Saviour by whom He had reconciled the world to Himself. As in Adam all died, even so in Christ (the 2nd Adam) shall all be made alive. Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess....why do you keep focusing on the stages of mankind moving from darkness into light? It's like you're looking at a parade from street level and zeroed in on just one part of it.

You said of the Law: 'It is always restorative'. Is that what you would say to the widow of a man who had been put to death legitimately under the Law? Please explain to me how he had been restored by the operation of the Law?There is restoration after death as well Charisma. Some walk into the fire willingly during their time on earth , others don't.

'we have to understand that God does not judge apart from Love'.

Of course this is true. But His love does not over-rule His other qualities - like Light, Life, Truth, and holiness - which are all perfectly integrated in God, along with His freedom to exercise righteous anger, wrath, vengeance and instantaneous judgement.

The OT has several instances of those who died instantly after disobeying an instruction. In what way did God's 'love' restore them?

[kathryn]

'I realize you take your doctrine from the surface Charisma.' That doesn't make it shallow.

'It is fine to believe God is going to do what He says He is going to do....and you can (and do) find a whole host of scripture to back it up...but if it doesn't witness to His purposes and character in His Law...its man made doctrine.' This I can agree.

Romans 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]: ) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

As Paul moves on through his argument, he is at pains to connect his thesis to that of Isaiah's. The centrality of believing in Jesus Christ as the only means to salvation is his main theme throughout the Roman epistle. How does this differ from 'His purpose and character in His Law'?

I don't find that doctrine in scripture either, and I don't believe universalism is the solution to the problem.

The problem is the in the stubbornness (imagination) and idolatry (unbelief) of those who refuse to come to Jesus Christ in an appropriately contrite condition of heart, acknowledging their need of Him as the Door to eternal life. The victory over sin and death which Jesus wrought is an incalculable treasure to those who lay hold on it. But for those who don't lay hold on it, it remains outside their experience. And Jesus Himself said they would be accounted as sinners for not having believed on Him.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

In other words, the only way for a person to be freed from their burden of sin - that which condemns them - is through faith in Jesus Christ.

John 3: 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

God already poured His heart out to mankind in Jesus Christ. He has already destroyed generation after generation who would not keep His Law. He brought the necessity for all thoses death to an end, in the death of His Son Jesus. God can do no more. He doesn't need to.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

I don't know what to say to the above Charisma. I'm really not sure what you're trying to convey to me. Sorry!

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn,

You really have not answered the question. One chapter in the NT and a vague sweeping of the arm over the Old, is not a laying out of the scriptures from which is derived a doctrine of such serious consequences to those who embrace it; nor does it amply give account of those scriptures which it seems to contradict. Hi Charisma....please note: I said it was a "good start". I will happily provide the OT scriptures and types. Just give me awhile. I have a busy evening.

If there is a pattern in scripture, it is that the life of Jesus Christ fully fulfilled the types and shadows in the OT. The problem found with the statements you make is not their plausibility, but their implausibility when placed against the whole Book.You'd have to be more specific here . What statement in particular?

In the end, you don't have to convince me, or Rick, or anyone of why you believe what you believe, and I don't blame you at all for wanting to not have to spend hours explaining it, only to find we are still in disagreement. But, for myself, I need to challenge the basis on which anyone can believe what you've expressed so far,That's great Charisma! I appreciate your need to challenge! because Jesus Himself came preaching the gospel of repentance, and He is the only way to escape the wrath to come. This (that I've just written) is not a minority view in the NT. Peter, John and Paul are in complete agreement about it.

For you, or anyone, to put forward a view which is so different, that the necessity of the fulfilment of the OT which Jesus Christ accomplished, is then rendered pointless, is the main problem, (and you rarely mention Jesus). It's as if He needn't have existed for your doctrines to stand.

[kathryn]

Good morning Charisma,
Before I get into the types in the OT that speak of the purification process of fire, I'd like you to clarify a few things you have said to this point.

I asked you the definition of everlasting/eternal in the verses you were quoting and you replied with : "age-during".
You then said that in God's terminology, this meant "forever", "however many ages that might be".
Could you clarify this please? Are you saying there is a limit to the ages? How are you defining God's "forever" exactly and where are you taking the definition from?

You then went on to say (at least I think you did) that you didn't see or believe the doctrine that man had to pay more for his sins than Jesus paid for ALL sin on the cross(or that the Law required)....and yet you continue to say that there are some who are cut off for the sin of unbelief, etc. etc. and consigned to everlasting fire. Could you clarify this for me?

You quoted the verse that says that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one who believeth. What about those who don't believe? How are they judged?
Sin is defined as "lawlessness" or "transgression of the Law"...so, would you say that at the judgement, the "books" used to judge, would be the Law?

[Charisma]

Hi Kathryn,

I asked you the definition of everlasting/eternal in the verses you were quoting and you replied with : "age-during".
You then said that in God's terminology, this meant "forever", "however many ages that might be".
Could you clarify this please? Are you saying there is a limit to the ages? How are you defining God's "forever" exactly and where are you taking the definition from?

I don't think your request for a definition of 'eternal' and 'everlasting' was attached to specific verses, so what I meant by 'age-during' is that when those words (eternal and everlasting) appear in the KJV, they are both able to be translated 'age-during'. By this I understand that whatever pronouncement has been made, will be in force until the end of the age to which it is being applied.

Here are three references to 'the world to come'.

Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

It seems to me in light of these verses, that 'everlasting' or 'eternal' life, is a quality of life which is not terminated by the end of an age.


Is that clearer?

You then went on to say (at least I think you did) that you didn't see or believe the doctrine that man had to pay more for his sins than Jesus paid for ALL sin on the cross(or that the Law required)....and yet you continue to say that there are some who are cut off for the sin of unbelief, etc. etc. and consigned to everlasting fire. Could you clarify this for me?

Hmm.

Let me start separately from your question.

You are starting from a theory, that because Jesus died for all men, therefore all will be saved, disregarding completely that God is looking for a consensual Bride. I suppose that raises the question of who will be 'in' the Bride, of all those who WILL be saved because they complied either with the Law, or, by obeying John Baptist's call or Jesus Christ's call (and His disciples' call) to repent. So, leaving aside all that about the Bride, what I have never seen you acknowledge - but perhaps you do - is God's sovereign right to deal with the people who did not obey His voice - before the Mosaic Law. (To be clear, I am not denigrating the Mosaic Law, or the possibility that it contains a template for the fulfilment of all of time as we know it, but the PURPOSE of the Law, was to bring to men's attention their sinful condition. It was about their RELATIONSHIP with God. And yet, it was imperfect, as MEN did not want to remain in relationship with God through the Law.)

And so, biblical history shows us that God has breaking points which cause Him to act in unprecedentted ways. For instance, He could so no longer tolerate the wickedness and violence on earth, that He repented (to Himself) of having made mankind at all. BUT: Noah - one man - found favour in seeking God, and God made a sovereign choice to use Noah to secure an inheritance for Himself in Noah's descendants. Then, God destroyed the rest of the human race apart from Noah's family, and those who had already died 'naturally'.

Then there was an era of replenishing the earth. Noah's sons overlapped Abrahams call by at least two hundred years. There cannot have been a person alive who did not know about the Flood, why it had happened, and what God's views about sin were. Job took this very seriously, making a sacrifice for each of his children every day, just in case one of them should forget to do so for himself. This did not protect these adults from God allowing them to lose their lives during Satan's testing of Job. My point is, death is not the end for those who are in right-standing with God at the time of their death.

But, there have been many who were not in right standing with God at the time of their death, for whom death is, effectively the end, because the consequences for their choices in this life, are eternal. That is why it's important to find Jesus NOW, in this life, so the consequence is eternal life, rather than eternal death. (We are all going to go through a transformation, whether natural death precedes it or not - and then the judgement.

But: 1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him )

Regarding those who died under the Mosaic Law, because they had committed sins worthy of death by God's decree, I cannot see how you can state that 'the Law is always restorative'.

But in Jesus Christ - the Lawgiver-Lawkeeper - there can be restoration for those repenting of sin. But for those not repenting of sin, there can be no restoration - because God cannot tolerate sin in His presence, and, He has shown Himself historically, unwilling to force anyone to be in fellowship with Him. He has pled with countless generations, but He has never compromised on the matter of their obedience to His voice as the ONLY means of being blessed by Him. It is not possible to read the OT and imagine that even those of Israel and Judah escaped His punishments. And when they are raised for judgement, their choices will count against them.

This is not making them pay twice for their sins. God is under no obligation to forgive anyone. He chooses to because He loves, He provided a sacrifice for us, and because He wants mankind to be in fellowship with Him again - of their own choice.

Isaiah 30:15 5 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!


There is no reason given in the Bible that the unchanging God would at some point in the future allow those who rejected Him, to come into His presence for anything other than their final acknowledgment of His Kingship, Lordship, and righteous judgements against them.

The God who destroyed those refusing to worship Him under the Old Covenant, is the same God who requires worship under the New Covenant. The terms of the Covenants have changed - the latter being better than the former - but the God whom both Covenants reveal, has not changed at all. It is the fact of His desire to bring an end to sin which is what shows men's hearts. Those in agreement with God are blessed, and those who prefer sin and death over fellowship and eternal life, will also receive the eternal outworking of their conscious choices.

What is unfair about that?

You quoted the verse that says that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one who believeth. What about those who don't believe? How are they judged?

I think I've just explained that in my previous comments.

A good example of this is in John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are]. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Acts 1:16 Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Note: God did not predestine Judas to destruction, but, He did fortell that Judas would choose unrighteousness.

Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? 3 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have [occasion] any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, [and] hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.


Can you see the simple truth that it is the kindness of God to have found ways to maintain a relationship with Himself, despite the fact that each and every one is heading for a natural death courtesy of Adam's transgression? Thus, the fact of the eternal death of those who choose to make good the death in which they were born, by rejecting God's proffers, is not an extra penalty; neither is it a punishment?

God has commanded the blessing - the reversal of death - even life forevermore - and those who choose death will get death.

Sin is defined as "lawlessness" or "transgression of the Law"...so, would you say that at the judgement, the "books" used to judge, would be the Law?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

In an earlier post I think I quoted the verse from David's story, in which the bundle of life is mentioned. There is a little discussed notion in the minds of some who read closely, that the spiritual principle of eternal life was established when the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, so, that those who do not lay hold of it have to have their name blotted out of the book of life, as much as (not rather than) those who receive (or have received) God's word and obeyed it - in whatever generation they happened to have been born, have established that their name is written in the Lamb's book of life. I'm showing you this so you can think about it. I'm not stating it as a widely taught doctrine, or even as a doctrine at all. It's more an observation of the logic which could be applied to verses which are in the Bible.

My great difficulty with theology and with doctrine, is if there are no Bible verses to support a teaching, or, the teaching depends heavily on one man's interpretation or imaginiation of what certain verses might mean, or, there are multitudinous other verses which show the opposite.

So, I can't see anything in Revelation about the books of the Law being used to judge.

The OT has a very simple template for who God is saving: it is those who mourn over the sins of His people - and their own sins.

Sin, in the face of God's holiness and His intolerance of sin, and how each person receives or rejects His provision for their salvation from sin, is of utmost interest to God. When one sinner repents, He rejoices in the presence of the angels. Why? Because He shed His blood for us.