Demons

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn,

I guess you can assert that I must look at the "big" picture and I can just make the assertion back to you that you need to look at the WHOLE picture. All the verses that I listed (and more).

We ain't going nowhere fast on this one, Kathryn.

I have presented more than enough, and yet I know nothing of your "big picture" in the LAW.

Your "plumbline" as you say that starts in the LAW.

I think we just disagree with each other on this and need to move on.

Rick

Not my plumb line Rick...God's. The Law is the foundation of Grace. If you don't understand the Law you'll never fully understand Grace.
Anyway...we'll agree to disagree, as you say.

Blessings,
Kathryn

[heb13-13]

Not my plumb line Rick...God's. The Law is the foundation of Grace. If you don't understand the Law you'll never fully understand Grace.
Anyway...we'll agree to disagree, as you say.

Blessings,
Kathryn

Do you mean know the law as in a lawyer or know the law as in no one is able to keep it.

Why would you think I don't understand Grace? Oh yeah, because your understanding of it is that ALL are saved. That belief actually destroys the cross of Christ. Why walk with Jesus everyday if we will all be saved?

You destroy grace in it's true meaning, too.

Have a good night,
Rick

[Charisma]

Hi Kathryn,

Thank you for inviting me to offer a comment. I want to be very clear to you, that what I'm posting is not 'my' 'opinion'. It is what the Bible states completely independently of any ideas of my own. The apostle Paul several times mentions the renewing of the spirit of the mind (as you also do), and the purpose of this is that we shall come to God's point of view in every situation and circumstance, as a habit of thinking, such, that if we don't know what He thinks about a thing, we won't presume to attribute to Him an opinion that He hasn't expressed. And if He has expressed an opinion, no matter how that upsets our neat and tidy doctrinal compartments, we will allow Him to re-educate us according to His doctrine.

I'm with Rick on the general point of view that scripture cannot retain its consistency, while supporting universalism. Of the scriptures which the Lord has brought to my heart while preparing to reply to you, Rick has not quoted a single one. So, I'll begin in 1 Cor 15 as you requested, beginning with the Rick's comment:

And this "ALL" is qualified in 1 Cor 15:23. Indeed, the Bible qualifies what it says in many places. There is no confusion about what the Bible says about the destiny of the righteous and unrighteous.

1Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S at his coming.

"They that are Christ's".

I would say the division between 'they are that are Christ's' and they that are not Christ's, begins even earlier in the chapter, in v 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

We see from these verses that Paul is comparing the condition of those who have believed (in Christ's resurrection), with the condition they would be in if Christ had not been raised from the dead. He says - not hypothetically, 'ye are yet in your sins'.

Paul's argument may seem indirect, because he's dealing with the lie that Christ didn't rise from the dead, but, the meaning is the same with regard to whether a person has believed in Him or not.

This is the vital distinction to see. It is only those who are 'in Christ' through having believed the gospel message (which is something we could discuss at length another time), who will receive the life which is in Christ. All those who remain outside Christ, one day will 'perish' v 18.

It is impossible to jump in at v 22 where Paul is reaching the conclusion of his thesis, without including the reasoning which led him to that conclusion. Or, if you do ignore his logic, any agreement with his conclusion must unreliable, if based on non-biblical explanations.

I noticed that you underlined 'all' in v 22, and, as long as we are both - you and me - in agreement with the whole of Paul's thesis, then we are in agreement with each other. Having been not 'in Christ' at one time in my life, I can testify that there is a huge difference between the two conditions of existence - heart and mind and soul.

The other factor I wish to bring to your attention is, that God Himself does not change. In the OT He routinely destroyed idolaters, sometimes sending prophets to specific generations to challenge them. This is the same God who is going to look at your heart and mine on the day of judgement, and having sacrificed His Son for our salvation, I cannot see one vestige of evidence in scripture, that He is suddenly going to start overlooking the unwashed-in-His-blood hearts before Him on that day.

It would be diabolically opposed to the revelation He gave of Himself in the garden of Eden, when He brought His word to pass that Adam would die for his sin, and for the very reason that the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden...' Genesis 3 it is surely impossible that at the end of time, He would forget why He'd expelled Adam from the first place?

It is essential that a person repents from sin. This is a spiritual act. A mental assent that God cannot tolerate sin is not repentance. Repentance changes a person on the inside, and God uses the season(s) of repentance to deepen the seeker/believer's appreciation of the sinfulness of sin, and his/her appreciation of the gulf it creates between mankind and our Holy God. The only remedy for sin is radical in spiritual terms: death. The death of Jesus Christ was an event in eternity which made an end of sin; and there is only one way we can participate in that victory - it is by acknowledging our own need of participation in His death.

In Tyndale's NT, he had (I think) a better turn of phrase than the KJV in Romans 6:5 For if we be graft(ed) in death like unto Him, even so must we be in the resurrection. The two are inseparable. There will be no 'resurrection of the just' [EDIT] Correction: the 'resurrection of the just' does apply to the OT saints - those who obeyed God's voice, whether before the Law was given or during the era of the Old Covenant; but we are here discussing whether a person in the New Covenant era can be saved without being 'in Christ'. I believe the appearance of Jesus Christ - the promised Messiah - changed cosmic history for ever. [end edit] for those who have not been grafted into Christ's death. It's a spiritual impossibility. The resurrection is where the life is - eternal life. It's why the early disciples were happy to die for the sake of the gospel - because they had absolute assurance that like as Christ had been raised from among the dead, so would they be. Note again: some of the dead will not be raised to eternal life. Rick quoted both Jesus and Daniel saying the same thing. Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

I do acknowledge there are several places in the NT where the writer points out that Jesus Christ died for the sin of the whole world. This is true. But the obdurate hearts of some of those to whom this message was taken, necessitated the preacher pleading with them to turn to Christ, so as to receive the benefits of His death and resurrection. As Paul said, 'it pleased God through the foolishness of preaching, to save them that believe'. 1 Cor 1


Now, I want to show you some other verses which are incompatible with universalism. The first place is Psalm 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. {Rest in: Heb. Be silent to} 8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. 9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. {a green...: or, a green tree that groweth in his own soil} 36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he [was] not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found. 37 Mark the perfect [man], and behold the upright: for the end of [that] man [is] peace. 38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. 39 But the salvation of the righteous [is] of the LORD: [he is] their strength in the time of trouble. 40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

Then, there is this comparison made in
Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
{call...: Heb. say concerning evil, It is good, etc} Woe. Woe Woe. God is serious.

For now, the last verses I want to show you are interesting because they are one of the clearest agreements from a piece of OT scripture with NT. It's important to understand the context of these verses, namely, God's warning Israel not to commit idolatry with the people of the land to which they are being sent to possess it: Leviticus 18 26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations; [neither] any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which [were] before you, and the land is defiled; ) 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that [were] before you. 29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit [them] shall be cut off from among their people. 30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that [ye] commit not [any one] of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I [am] the LORD your God.

In the OT, 'prosperity' was a physical thing - it was the blessing of God in material things. Gold was not a problem, if it was honestly obtained. But in the NT, prosperity is spiritual; it's about laying aside the physical which will perish, for spiritual treasure in heaven that cannot be stolen and cannot fade away. Yes, God gives most us more than enough of this life's goods, but they are not what we are to focus on, or they prevent us from knowing God the way He wants to be known by us. In the NT there are several places where darkness, or idolatry, or materialism, are associated with spiritual blindness, rejection of God's light, choices to please self rather than God. Here is one: 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Jesus says here: 'and knowest not that ..' He said a similar thing in John 4 to the Samaritan woman at the well: 22a Ye worship ye know not what' And here hangs the whole of scripture: who will you worship?

There are, as Rick keeps saying, only two worship systems. One leads to eternal life, and the other leads to eternal death.




In my next post I'll look at the question about 'seed'.

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn,

Thank you for inviting me to offer a comment. I want to be very clear to you, that what I'm posting is not 'my' 'opinion'. It is what the Bible states completely independently of any ideas of my own. The apostle Paul several times mentions the renewing of the spirit of the mind (as you also do), and the purpose of this is that we shall come to God's point of view in every situation and circumstance, as a habit of thinking, such, that if we don't know what He thinks about a thing, we won't presume to attribute to Him an opinion that He hasn't expressed. And if He has expressed an opinion, no matter how that upsets our neat and tidy doctrinal compartments, we will allow Him to re-educate us according to His doctrine.

I'm with Rick on the general point of view that scripture cannot retain its consistency, while supporting universalism. Of the scriptures which the Lord has brought to my heart while preparing to reply to you, Rick has not quoted a single one. So, I'll begin in 1 Cor 15 as you requested, beginning with the Rick's comment:

I would say the division between 'they are that are Christ's' and they that are not Christ's, begins even earlier in the chapter, in v 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

We see from these verses that Paul is comparing the condition of those who have believed (in Christ's resurrection), with the condition they would be in if Christ had not been raised from the dead. He says - not hypothetically, 'ye are yet in your sins'.

Paul's argument may seem indirect, because he's dealing with the lie that Christ didn't rise from the dead, but, the meaning is the same with regard to whether a person has believed in Him or not.

This is the vital distinction to see. It is only those who are 'in Christ' through having believed the gospel message (which is something we could discuss at length another time), who will receive the life which is in Christ. All those who remain outside Christ, one day will 'perish' v 18.

It is impossible to jump in at v 22 where Paul is reaching the conclusion of his thesis, without including the reasoning which led him to that conclusion. Or, if you do ignore his logic, any agreement with his conclusion must unreliable, if based on non-biblical explanations.

I noticed that you underlined 'all' in v 22, and, as long as we are both - you and me - in agreement with the whole of Paul's thesis, then we are in agreement with each other. Having been not 'in Christ' at one time in my life, I can testify that there is a huge difference between the two conditions of existence - heart and mind and soul.

The other factor I wish to bring to your attention is, that God Himself does not change. In the OT He routinely destroyed idolaters, sometimes sending prophets to specific generations to challenge them. This is the same God who is going to look at your heart and mine on the day of judgement, and having sacrificed His Son for our salvation, I cannot see one vestige of evidence in scripture, that He is suddenly going to start overlooking the unwashed-in-His-blood hearts before Him on that day. Hi Charisma....I haven't said that there isn't judgement....and everyone will go through the Baptism of Fire. There is not one person who will have any "self" left by the time this has completed.

It would be diabolically opposed to the revelation He gave of Himself in the garden of Eden, when He brought His word to pass that Adam would die for his sin, and for the very reason that the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden...' Genesis 3 it is surely impossible that at the end of time, He would forget why He'd expelled Adam from the first place?

It is essential that a person repents from sin. This is a spiritual act. A mental assent that God cannot tolerate sin is not repentance. Repentance changes a person on the inside, and God uses the season(s) of repentance to deepen the seeker/believer's appreciation of the sinfulness of sin, and his/her appreciation of the gulf it creates between mankind and our Holy God. The only remedy for sin is radical in spiritual terms: death. The death of Jesus Christ was an event in eternity which made an end of sin; and there is only one way we can participate in that victory - it is by acknowledging our own need of participation in His death.I've never said anything different Charisma.

In Tyndale's NT, he had (I think) a better turn of phrase than the KJV in Romans 6:5 For if we be graft(ed) in death like unto Him, even so must we be in the resurrection. The two are inseparable. There will be no 'resurrection of the just' [EDIT] Correction: the 'resurrection of the just' does apply to the OT saints - those who obeyed God's voice, whether before the Law was given or during the era of the Old Covenant; but we are here discussing whether a person in the New Covenant era can be saved without being 'in Christ'. I believe the appearance of Jesus Christ - the promised Messiah - changed cosmic history for ever. [end edit] for those who have not been grafted into Christ's death. It's a spiritual impossibility. The resurrection is where the life is - eternal life. It's why the early disciples were happy to die for the sake of the gospel - because they had absolute assurance that like as Christ had been raised from among the dead, so would they be. Note again: some of the dead will not be raised to eternal life. Rick quoted both Jesus and Daniel saying the same thing. Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

I do acknowledge there are several places in the NT where the writer points out that Jesus Christ died for the sin of the whole world. This is true. But the obdurate hearts of some of those to whom this message was taken, necessitated the preacher pleading with them to turn to Christ, so as to receive the benefits of His death and resurrection. As Paul said, 'it pleased God through the foolishness of preaching, to save them that believe'. 1 Cor 1


Now, I want to show you some other verses which are incompatible with universalism. The first place is Psalm 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. {Rest in: Heb. Be silent to} 8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. 9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. {a green...: or, a green tree that groweth in his own soil} 36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he [was] not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found. 37 Mark the perfect [man], and behold the upright: for the end of [that] man [is] peace. 38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. 39 But the salvation of the righteous [is] of the LORD: [he is] their strength in the time of trouble. 40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him. No one is eternally cut off. "If I be lifted up, I will draw (drag) ALL men to myself." You are twisting scripture to suit your doctrine.

Then, there is this comparison made in
Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
{call...: Heb. say concerning evil, It is good, etc} Woe. Woe Woe. God is serious.

For now, the last verses I want to show you are interesting because they are one of the clearest agreements from a piece of OT scripture with NT. It's important to understand the context of these verses, namely, God's warning Israel not to commit idolatry with the people of the land to which they are being sent to possess it: Leviticus 18 26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations; [neither] any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which [were] before you, and the land is defiled; ) 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that [were] before you. 29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit [them] shall be cut off from among their people. 30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that [ye] commit not [any one] of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I [am] the LORD your God.

In the OT, 'prosperity' was a physical thing - it was the blessing of God in material things. Gold was not a problem, if it was honestly obtained. But in the NT, prosperity is spiritual; it's about laying aside the physical which will perish, for spiritual treasure in heaven that cannot be stolen and cannot fade away. Yes, God gives most us more than enough of this life's goods, but they are not what we are to focus on, or they prevent us from knowing God the way He wants to be known by us. In the NT there are several places where darkness, or idolatry, or materialism, are associated with spiritual blindness, rejection of God's light, choices to please self rather than God. Here is one: 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Jesus says here: 'and knowest not that ..' He said a similar thing in John 4 to the Samaritan woman at the well: 22a Ye worship ye know not what' And here hangs the whole of scripture: who will you worship?

There are, as Rick keeps saying, only two worship systems. One leads to eternal life, and the other leads to eternal death.Could you show me the root of the words "eternal" and "everlasting" in the verses you are using?




In my next post I'll look at the question about 'seed'.

[Charisma]

Hello Kathryn,

As it's late (where I am), I will mainly lay out the verses on my mind, and we can discuss them further in more detail. This gives you a start on where I'm coming from in scripture (and there are many others, too).

You asked my interpretation of 'seed' in Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. {thou...: or, his soul shall make an offering}

The way that most strikes me to read 'he shall see seed', is in the context of John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

There is both the singular seed (not necessarily wheat) being given a new body (the plant) which brings forth fruit (multiple ears of grain, in this case) - seed: Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Yes, the prolongation of 'his' days, is a reference to the resurrection of Christ. It is also that the life of God on the earth which was made manifest by Him, continues in His Body, the Church.


As far as my research shows, the 'seed' in Isaiah 53:10 is not necessarily singular. Rick already mentioned that Jesus has children. Here are some verses about that:
Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me [are] for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Hebrews 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will'.

Psalm 22:29 All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. 30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. 31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done [this].

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever

If it is Jehovah who shall see seed, this also makes sense, not merely because of the unity between the Father and the Son, but because the Father sowed the Son into death, that He might bring forth a great harvest of sons: Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


There is no getting away from the connection between Jesus Christ and the saints, or, that He told us no-one could come to Him except the Father draw them, and, that those who know the Father can do so only because the Son has made Him known to them. (Matt 11:27)

[kathryn]

Charisma:

There is no getting away from the connection between Jesus Christ and the saints, or, that He told us no-one could come to Him except the Father draw them, and, that those who know the Father can do so only because the Son has made Him known to them. (Matt 11:27)

Hi Charisma....I agree with the above. I never said anything contrary to this.

Now, if you could provide the root words for the verses you are quoting that speak of "everlasting" torment/hell etc. it would be appreciated.

[kathryn]

Do you mean know the law as in a lawyer or know the law as in no one is able to keep it. The Law is spiritual and reveals the eternal character and purpose of God, Rick. AFTER the resurrection, Jesus OPENED the eyes of the disciples to show them how He was revealed in the Law of Moses, the prophets and the psalms. Don't you think this is a good indicator that we should be able to do the same?

He wasn't taking them back under it...He was showing them what He had just fulfilled. Most of the Christian church today know nothing of how Christ is revealed in the Law and as a result, have no idea that their doctrines aren't supported in the foundation of Scripture. Neither do they fully understand what was redeemed for them at the Cross.

Why do you suppose David loved God's Law and meditated on it day and night, if it was just a bunch of rules no one was able to keep? Until you allow the Holy Spirit to lead you through it, all you will be capable of doing is to continue to quote NT scripture to fit any doctrine you wish.
What does "rightly dividing" the Word of God mean to you?

Why would you think I don't understand Grace? Oh yeah, because your understanding of it is that ALL are saved. That belief actually destroys the cross of Christ. Odd then that one of the central verses on the Cross speaks of drawing(dragging) ALL mankind to Himself: "If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men to myself." Why walk with Jesus everyday if we will all be saved? Because I want to be in the first resurrection. I want to be an "overcomer", because I have seen and tasted His goodness and joy and Love and couldn't walk otherwise if I tried. We are all motivated by Love Rick. When we "see" it...we'll walk into the mouths of Lions before we'll deny it. This isn't a virtue of ours, it is something that is woven into our very being. Our ability to respond is also God given. He hardens the hearts of some, makes "enemies" of some for the sake of others; He subjected mankind to vanity (perverseness/depravity) that we might know Harmony! Jesus died on the Cross to make the "crooked" straight! You don't think He knows exactly how to draw His creation into perfect Harmony/Oneness without the loss of one of His/Her children? His Hope would be a pretty meager thing if that were the case!

Once you can see the big picture, you can stop concerning yourself (and dividing mankind) into who is rebellious and who isn't, who is "chosen" and who isn't...and start truly standing in agreement or harmonizing with His perfect Will and purposes(that all men be saved)...or in WHOLE-hearted "witness" to His character and purposes. This is when the Power of God will begin to accompany His Word on earth...and the "Love of God can be shed abroad(gush forth, spill out) in our hearts" (Rom. 5.5)

You destroy grace in it's true meaning, too.

Have a good night,
Rick

[heb13-13]

Hi Kathryn,

I know how God's character is revealed in the Law. I showed that in the thread, "Can You Be Righteous". I also showed how it was revealed in Creation.

What you are saying is that no one knows but you, how He is revealed in the Law because if we did, then we would come to the same conclusion as you regarding the eternal disposition of the just and the unjust and our understanding of Satan and Hell.

If anyone disagrees with you, it is simply because they don't have your light.

What is so hard to understand about that? Your message comes through crystal clear as far as I can tell.

Why don't you start a thread about your teaching so that we all have something else to look at besides "you don't know this or that, because you don't understand God's Law". Ok, I think we have heard that a million times, now. Lay out your teaching.

All the best,
Rick

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn,

I know how God's character is revealed in the Law. I showed that in the thread, "Can You Be Righteous". I also showed how it was revealed in Creation.

What you are saying is that no one knows but you, how He is revealed in the Law because if we did, then we would come to the same conclusion as you regarding the eternal disposition of the just and the unjust and our understanding of Satan and Hell.

If anyone disagrees with you, it is simply because they don't have your light.

What is so hard to understand about that? Your message comes through crystal clear as far as I can tell.

Why don't you start a thread about your teaching so that we all have something else to look at besides "you don't know this or that, because you don't understand God's Law". Ok, I think we have heard that a million times, now. Lay out your teaching.

All the best,
Rick

I'm sorry if it comes across that way Rick. I was simply answering your questions on why the Law was important, which you have asked me more than once. What category is your thread "Can you be righteous in?" I have never seen it...sorry.

As far as your understanding of satan and hell....I have tried to bring in foundational teaching in this...beginning with simple definitions, which you ignore and then carry on with more NT verses.
How about answering my question on the root word for "everlasting" and "eternal" describing your belief that God sends people to roast in eternal fire? I've already showed you how such a concept violates His Law and therefore His character and purposes but you disagreed with it. Until you show me some foundational witnesses to your point of view...there isn't anywhere to go from here.

[Charisma]

Good afternoon, Kathryn,

I haven't read all of your replies yet, but this is at the top of a page, so I thought I'd quickly respond.

Hi Charisma....I agree with the above. I never said anything contrary to this.

Now, if you could provide the root words for the verses you are quoting that speak of "everlasting" torment/hell etc. it would be appreciated.

About the OT saints (just as an example), I mentioned it to correct the statement which, had I not mentioned it, would have been open to dispute. Not every thing I'm going to say (in my posts), is a direct rejection of things you've said, although some may well be. I'm hoping we don't disagree about everything! But I know too, that unless I offer you a context in which to understand a statement which may seem to be contrary to something you think you've said, you can't really hold it against the template of scripture in the same way as I believe I am.
(I hope that reads okay. If it's not clear, please say so and I'll try a different way to explain what I mean.)

I have not done a whole-Bible study on 'eternal' and 'everlasting', but mostly they mean the same thing, which Young translates as 'age-during'.

I didn't mention torment or hell - but Jesus does - a lot of times.