Demons

[Charisma]

Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Jesus keeps it simple:

John 8:34 Jesus answered them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Hi Kathryn,

Although it's true that 'desire followeth the eye', it's clear from the narrative in Genesis 3 that Eve hadn't even noticed the fruit before the serpent spoke to her.

The 'law' which was in action during that conversation was that words communicate to our hearts, just as what we speak, communicates our hearts. This is a very simple symmetry which God has placed in creation.

When Paul said, 'Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God', Romans 10:17, he was talking about the dunamis of the word of God being the power to create faith where there may have been none before - 1 Corinthians 1:28b and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Although we see from Genesis that God had commanded Adam about the trees before Eve was formed, it seems unlikely that Eve was left out of the walks which God took with Adam in the garden.

Nevertheless, the responsibility for the obedience of both of them, rested with Adam as Eve's head. Scripture in Leviticus 18 makes clear that the woman becomes one flesh with the man, and it's the man that other men have to deal with. The woman is not expected to take care of herself if she has a husband. (And if she doesn't have a husband, she is still 'one flesh' with her father and mother, while they live.)


I disagree strongly with the way (note my choice of words) you explain what you believe, even though I can see it's a carefully thought out thesis by the people from whom you are hearing it. It supports the 'dual nature' theory, even (it seems), implying that 'Wisdom' is an entity separate from God, and that the 'Serpent' represents it - divided between the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and .... what ...? the tree of life?

The problem with what you put forth (if I have 'heard' correctly what you wrote back to Rick), is that it doesn't accord with scripture's declaration about God, or about the serpent, or about their natures and relationship with each other. You frequently ask for us to 'see' things 'in the Law', which may well be there, as far as the Law goes. But, God has revealed far more than the Law, in Jesus Christ, or, put another way, He has revealed the Law fully, in Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


The other thing I want to express to you, is that any idea that there is a division within God Himself, is a lie.

I can't figure out if this is partly what you're saying, because much of (what you say) is resting on negative images - the opposite of God - the strong implication being that somehow God is the other side of something. Whereas, God is totally pure, holy, undivided, uncreated, light without darkenss or shadow, living water without death (and so on). If there is any thought in your mind that this is otherwise, please be aware that Jung put forth that the divine and the profane exist as poles of the same entity. There is nothing in the Bible which accords with that view.

Likewise, 'the virgin subconscious mind' is also a lie.

When Adam disobeyed God, he knew immediately that he felt different about both himself, and God. Adam had experienced both being in fellowship with God, and, being out of fellowship with God.

Adam's immediate descendants did not have this advantage. Their only relief from their sense of separation was in peace offerings, and a certain kind of obedience to God's ongoing spoken word to them - for many centuries before the Law had been given.

Today, we, too, are born separated from fellowship with God. It is not one's 'virgin subconscious mind' which is aware of Him; we sense our separation from Him because He cannot come to us, because of our sin, and, He has given us 'conscience', regardless of not having the law of love written on our hearts - until we are in a fit state (through a new relationship with God through Jesus Christ), spiritually, to receive the Holy Spirit.

Yes, in God there are emotions and the outworking of those in His actions. But in Him, they are pure. His anger is never unrighteous. His grief is never tinged or absorbed with self-pity. His sorrow is a perfect expression of sorrow, sorrowing for only right reasons in proper circumstances with genuine cause. This is not a flaw in God. These emotions are dark in unregenerate humans because they are usually entirely selfish. The one nearly redeeming power in mankind, is to love another more than self - sometimes - but it falls very short of the love of God in Christ Jesus.

Our capacity to 'know' God, is reserved in a profound part of our beings. This depth is always seeking to 'know' something, and it can be filled in very many ways apart from God. These can seem deeply satisfying - and they are for a season - but they may be far from the template given in the New Testament by the apostles.

Not only does John say we 'are cleansed from all unrighteousness' (1:1:7), but he says in 1:3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

You don't have to agree with John, but I have found his words true, and, I find them at quite a variance with the ideas you put forward.

[kathryn]

Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Jesus keeps it simple:

John 8:34 Jesus answered them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Hi Kathryn,

Although it's true that 'desire followeth the eye', it's clear from the narrative in Genesis 3 that Eve hadn't even noticed the fruit before the serpent spoke to her.

The 'law' which was in action during that conversation was that words communicate to our hearts, just as what we speak, communicates our hearts. This is a very simple symmetry which God has placed in creation.

When Paul said, 'Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God', Romans 10:17, he was talking about the dunamis of the word of God being the power to create faith where there may have been none before - 1 Corinthians 1:28b and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Although we see from Genesis that God had commanded Adam about the trees before Eve was formed, it seems unlikely that Eve was left out of the walks which God took with Adam in the garden.

Nevertheless, the responsibility for the obedience of both of them, rested with Adam as Eve's head. Scripture in Leviticus 18 makes clear that the woman becomes one flesh with the man, and it's the man that other men have to deal with. The woman is not expected to take care of herself if she has a husband. (And if she doesn't have a husband, she is still 'one flesh' with her father and mother, while they live.) Hi Charisma...when the woman is one flesh with the man, they have one Head...Christ...and they learn of that Head through MUTUAL submission to one another. The "becoming one flesh" means ONE in agreement or double witness. It is a type and shadow of the ONE Christ (who are "two"...Bride and Bridegroom)


I disagree strongly with the way (note my choice of words) you explain what you believe, even though I can see it's a carefully thought out thesis by the people from whom you are hearing it. It supports the 'dual nature' theory, even (it seems), implying that 'Wisdom' is an entity separate from God, and that the 'Serpent' represents it - divided between the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and .... what ...? the tree of life? I haven't heard this from anyone Charisma, except my heart/mind as I have been going along with this. I took a course in Levitical Law...and learned much from that...otherwise I have been taught entirely on my own. It has only been the past two years that I have began to communicate these things in any depth on the forum...and only the last year that I have found others of like mind. In discussing these things with them, my understanding has grown in leaps and bounds. I understand why you are feeling this way...but again...both you and Rick need to show me in scripture where you are disagreeing with me. Please show me scripturally...who the serpent is...and how it relates to satan.

The problem with what you put forth (if I have 'heard' correctly what you wrote back to Rick), is that it doesn't accord with scripture's declaration about God, or about the serpent, or about their natures and relationship with each other. You frequently ask for us to 'see' things 'in the Law', which may well be there, as far as the Law goes. But, God has revealed far more than the Law, in Jesus Christ, or, put another way, He has revealed the Law fully, in Jesus Christ.Well..if that was the case...Jesus would not have had to OPEN the disciples eyes, after the resurrection, and take them BACK into the Law of Moses, to show how He was revealed. We are no different. If anything..it is MUCH more vital that the Holy Spirit do the same with us because at least they were familiar with the Law in the 1st century. The church has tossed it out the window because they think that it is no longer applicable being that we're in the age of Grace. The problem is...the Law CONSUMMATES with Grace...and we have to know "WHO" we are consummating with.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. If we can't SEE the shadow, we're certainly not going to see the Entity casting the shadow.


The other thing I want to express to you, is that any idea that there is a division within God Himself, is a lie. Please show me where I ever said there was any division within God .

I can't figure out if this is partly what you're saying, because much of (what you say) is resting on negative images - the opposite of God -what are you seeing as negative images Charisma? the strong implication being that somehow God is the other side of something. Whereas, God is totally pure, holy, undivided, uncreated, light without darkenss or shadow, living water without death (and so on). If there is any thought in your mind that this is otherwise, please be aware that Jung put forth that the divine and the profane exist as poles of the same entity. There is nothing in the Bible which accords with that view.No...again...God ..the ONE...is a completely integrated WHOLE.

Likewise, 'the virgin subconscious mind' is also a lie.
I need to have 2 witnesses to that in typology Charisma. What is the Holy of Holies in your mind? If you want to seriously study this...we have to use the biblical criteria for determining Truth. You will also have to give a corresponding witness in His creation to back it up.
When Adam disobeyed God, he knew immediately that he felt different about both himself, and God. Adam had experienced both being in fellowship with God, and, being out of fellowship with God.


And your point was?


Adam's immediate descendants did not have this advantage. Their only relief from their sense of separation was in peace offerings, and a certain kind of obedience to God's ongoing spoken word to them - for many centuries before the Law had been given.You don't think they were able to hear from God? How did Abraham hear Him?

Today, we, too, are born separated from fellowship with God. What gives you this idea? It is not one's 'virgin subconscious mind' which is aware of Him; we sense our separation from Him because He cannot come to us, because of our sin, and, He has given us 'conscience', regardless of not having the law of love written on our hearts - until we are in a fit state (through a new relationship with God through Jesus Christ), spiritually, to receive the Holy Spirit.Scripture please

Yes, in God there are emotions and the outworking of those in His actions. But in Him, they are pure.Yes they are...but it is YOU who is providing for the definition of Pure...not Him. His anger is never unrighteous.Never His grief is never tinged or absorbed with self-pity. His sorrow is a perfect expression of sorrow, sorrowing for only right reasons in proper circumstances with genuine cause. This is not a flaw in God. These emotions are dark in unregenerate humans because they are usually entirely selfish. The one nearly redeeming power in mankind, is to love another more than self - sometimes - but it falls very short of the love of God in Christ Jesus.I agree...but we need to understand what "self" is, using the scriptural definition

Our capacity to 'know' God, is reserved in a profound part of our beings. Yes....the virgin subconcious. This depth is always seeking to 'know' something, and it can be filled in very many ways apart from God. No...again...only the High Priest could enter "her". These can seem deeply satisfying - and they are for a season - but they may be far from the template given in the New Testament by the apostles.The template or plummet was Laid in the small beginning...in the Law. It goes down in the MOTHER/Bride...the New Jerusalem. The New Testament expands on it.

Not only does John say we 'are cleansed from all unrighteousness' (1:1:7), but he says in 1:3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Please give us your scriptural definition of sin and righteousness.

You don't have to agree with John, but I have found his words true, and, I find them at quite a variance with the ideas you put forward. I agree with John 100 percent...and I've never found myself at variance with anything he has said.

[kathryn]

Charisma and Rick....one area that is causing much confusion with you both, is how our triune nature corresponds to Temple/Tabernacle typology and how this in turn, corresponds to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd heaven. You must do a careful study, particularily of the entrances.."sides" . You both seem to think that satan has access to the Holy of Holies...or the 3rd heaven. There was NO way the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies through the Holy Place. (let alone satan through the UNcircumcised High Priest....our UNcircumcised Heart)

You both must be able to provide a scriptural foundation, in definition, for the serpent, satan , demons...and what is "spirit". Then, you must be able to support it using the passage describing our spiritual warfare in 2 Corinthians 10.

One of the wonderful advantages in studying the law, is that it gives you a clear understanding of what unclean doctrine is, in the types of creatures that were considered UNclean...and why.

I'm not being critical here...but the two of you are limping along without some very basic foundational understanding. I love to discuss these things with you both...but we need to get back to some basic definitions before we can continue.

[heb13-13]

Rick..next time you write, could you just stick to either bold or otherwise...no color? It's impossible to work with, when you're replying. Some of my answers came out in blue...some in black..:-) thanks!

Hi Kathryn,

Yes, next time I write you I will do that. (that would be this time. )

Now, with respect to Satan and the 3rd heaven, I did provide scriptures. I would like to see you provide more scriptures, too. We all know that there are 3 heavens talked about. The third heaven being the "highest heaven" and abode of God and His angels. The second heaven being the earth.

With that in mind - Where did Satan meet the Lord?

Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

He came to the 3rd heaven from the 2nd heaven. Do you see that Satan was on the earth (Job 2:2)?

Job 2:2
And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Simple, easy, cut and dried.


If Satan came from earth, (the second heaven, creation) then where did He meet the Lord?

All the best,
Rick

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn,

Yes, next time I write you I will do that. (that would be this time. )

Thanks Rick. Greatly appreciated

Now, with respect to Satan and the 3rd heaven, I did provide scriptures. I would like to see you provide more scriptures, too.It's not enough to provide scriptures. We can make the written Logos agree with anything we want. We need to get down to the basic definitions...and work from there. We all know that there are 3 heavens talked about. The third heaven being the "highest heaven" and abode of God and His angels. The second heaven being the earth. The second heaven is the realm of the "air"...which is first and foremost...in the Holy Place or realm of the soul. Satan is the prince of the "power of the air". Our minds are a conduit for spirits/thought. We must have a circumcised Heart, before we can fully "conduct" the Holy Spirit...and have the Holy Spirit conduct us. The 3 parts of the Temple are also related to the 3 baptisms we go through...water /air/Spirt/wind/ and Fire/Spirit.

With that in mind - Where did Satan meet the Lord? In the garden/mind. The Holy Place. The 2nd heaven.

Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

He came to the 3rd heaven from the 2nd heaven. Do you see that Satan was on the earth (Job 2:2)?

Again Rick...you need to establish some foundations here. All of this takes place on earth. The Tabernacle and Temple were firmly laid ON EARTH. Satan is the "father of lies" who dwells on earth, within each of us, in the "garden" of our minds.



Job 2:2
And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Simple, easy, cut and dried.
I agree. Now..maybe you can take what I've said above...and if you disagree...please show me your version of the garden, the 3rd heaven, etc.

All the best,you too!
Rick

[heb13-13]

Hi Kathryn,

You put our entire discussion in quotes, so when I went to "reply to quote", I got nothing. Quote what I say then put your remarks below them. Don't quote the entire discussion and put your remarks in bold. It is really difficult to read because that means other people should not "boldify" anything they write to you because you answer them in bold and it will be hard for others to figure out who is saying what. Richard gave a post on how to do this. It is really simple. I will see if I can find it. Now, I will work on separating these comments for my benefit and the benefit of the Readers.

Rick said: Now, with respect to Satan and the 3rd heaven, I did provide scriptures. I would like to see you provide more scriptures, too.

Kathryn said: It's not enough to provide scriptures. We can make the written Logos agree with anything we want. We need to get down to the basic definitions...and work from there.

Providing scriptures is our starting point, isn't it. Now, I think I see what you are doing. But I want to see if you are consistent with your typology.

Is the earth we are living on physical?
Are we physical?
It seems that you don't think the garden was physical so to my thinking, this is our first disconnect.

You say the earth is physical and we are but the garden was not. The garden is in our mind which is the 2nd heaven.

So earth is not the second heaven. Earth is this round ball we are living on, right? Or is earth our bodies?

Rick said: We all know that there are 3 heavens talked about. The third heaven being the "highest heaven" and abode of God and His angels. The second heaven being the earth.

Kathryn said:The second heaven is the realm of the "air"...which is first and foremost...in the Holy Place or realm of the soul. Satan is the prince of the "power of the air". Our minds are a conduit for spirits/thought. We must have a circumcised Heart, before we can fully "conduct" the Holy Spirit...and have the Holy Spirit conduct us. The 3 parts of the Temple are also related to the 3 baptisms we go through...water/air/Spirt/wind/and Fire.

The second heaven again, is not the earth but the realm of our soul. When someone is born-again they have a circumcised heart, right. God has put into them a new heart and removed the heart of stone. So, are you saying a newly born-again person is able to FULLY conduct the Holy Spirit? I know what "the Holy Spirit conducting us" means, what does "we can fully conduct the Holy Spirit" mean?

You lost me on the 3 parts of the Temple and the 3 baptisms and I will need further explanation.

Rick said: With that in mind - Where did Satan meet the Lord?

Kathryn said: In the garden/mind. The Holy Place. The 2nd heaven.

Rick:Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Rick says:He came to the 3rd heaven from the 2nd heaven. Do you see that Satan was on the earth (Job 2:2)?

Kathryn says: Again Rick...you need to establish some foundations here. All of this takes place on earth. The Tabernacle and Temple were firmly laid ON EARTH. Satan is the "father of lies" who dwells on earth, within each of us, in the "garden" of our minds.

So the earth is physical!!?? Satan dwells on the earth? That would be the 2nd heaven, right? Oh, I did not read far enough, he dwells in each of us, in the "garden" of our minds.

So Satan dwells in us? He doesn't just speak his thoughts to us, but dwells in us? Does that mean Wisdom dwells in us. You said, Satan is Wisdom.

Wisdom seems like a good thing and Satan seems like a bad thing.

Rick says:

Job 2:2
And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Rick says: Simple, easy, cut and dried.

Kathryn says: I agree. Now..maybe you can take what I've said above...and if you disagree...please show me your version of the garden, the 3rd heaven, etc.

Well, obviously I think I disagree with a lot. I don't see how you are consistent in what is not physical and merely typology/metaphors and what is physical and not typology. And how do you decide which is which?

Does Satan dwell in the "garden" of Jesus' mind? During his temptation in the wilderness, from what you write, if you are to be consistent, Satan was not a outside of Jesus, tempting Him, but inside the "garden" of His mind, part of Him, tempting Him.

In other words, what is physically real in the Bible and what is spiritual, or invisible (just as real, but not physical)?

Was Noah's Ark physical (I understand the typology of Jesus being our Ark, that would be typology).

How did you determine the Garden of Eden was typology and not physically real?

Was Samson a real person? When he brought down the temple of Dagon was that a real life story or typology? When his eyes were put out, was that real.

When Jesus referred to stories about Jonah, why would he talk as if they were real live events?

You know, all of these real live events have spiritual meaning behind them, we don't have to make everything that seems incredulous to us a typology.

I know that you think Satan is not real. That he is Wisdom (and you lost me there).

Are there any people in the Bible that were not real (such as Goliath)? Who in the Bible was made up to illustrate a spiritual lesson or meaning?

Are there any geographical places in the Bible that were not real, in the physical sense that people could see with their real, physical eyes?

If the garden was not real, when did things become real for Adam and Eve in the physical sense that they could touch, see, taste with their physical senses?

Were Cain and Abel real? Did Cain really kill Abel or was that a metaphor? When God says that His "wrath is upon the children of disobedience", is that a metaphor. What does that mean to you?

If you could give me your "rules" for determining if something is real in the physical sense or typology/metaphors that would be extremely helpful.

This is the foundation I need.

And Kathryn, if I have the Holy Spirit, how come I have never seen these foundational basics that you talk about? What does one have to do to see them? Find someone like you? Isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to lead us into all truth, if we come to Him with all of our heart, without ulterior motives?

You say Satan is a liar. Do you mean Wisdom is a liar? How can that be?

As you can see you have generated a lot of questions from me.

Rick: All the best,

Kathryn: you too!

Rick

[kathryn]

Hi Rick...I'm sorry about that. I have difficulty with computer stuff. Rose told me how to do it a few days ago...but I still had problems. Perhaps you could tell me again and I'll give it another try.

[heb13-13]

Hi Rick...I'm sorry about that. I have difficulty with computer stuff. Rose told me how to do it a few days ago...but I still had problems. Perhaps you could tell me again and I'll give it another try.

Kathryn,

View this post.


How To Quote Posts in Replies
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...sts-in-replies.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Kathryn,

View this post.


How To Quote Posts in Replies
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...sts-in-replies.

Thanks Rick! I wrote that post for a reason. I hope it helps.

Listen folks - if you have any questions about how to post in this forum, don't be shy! I would love to work with you until it makes sense. Believe me, it's not that hard. It might take a few minutes to get it, but ti will be worth it.

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn,

You put our entire discussion in quotes, so when I went to "reply to quote", I got nothing. Quote what I say then put your remarks below them. Don't quote the entire discussion and put your remarks in bold. It is really difficult to read because that means other people should not "boldify" anything they write to you because you answer them in bold and it will be hard for others to figure out who is saying what. Richard gave a post on how to do this. It is really simple. I will see if I can find it. Now, I will work on separating these comments for my benefit and the benefit of the Readers.


Hi Rick...I have all of my family coming for Christmas and am trying to get the place ready for their arrival...including all the other goodies that go along with it. It's the first time we've all been together in years, so it's going to be extra special. I take breaks to answer the posts...but if I have to figure out how to do the quotes right now...it isn't going to happen. What is simple to you...isn't to me. So...if you don't mind me inserting my comments, until the Christmas rush is over...I'd love to answer them, otherwise...maybe we could pick it up then?



Providing scriptures is our starting point, isn't it. Now, I think I see what you are doing. But I want to see if you are consistent with your typology.

Is the earth we are living on physical?
Are we physical?
It seems that you don't think the garden was physical so to my thinking, this is our first disconnect.

You say the earth is physical and we are but the garden was not. The garden is in our mind which is the 2nd heaven.

So earth is not the second heaven. Earth is this round ball we are living on, right? Or is earth our bodies?





The second heaven again, is not the earth but the realm of our soul. When someone is born-again they have a circumcised heart, right. God has put into them a new heart and removed the heart of stone. So, are you saying a newly born-again person is able to FULLY conduct the Holy Spirit? I know what "the Holy Spirit conducting us" means, what does "we can fully conduct the Holy Spirit" mean?

You lost me on the 3 parts of the Temple and the 3 baptisms and I will need further explanation.












So the earth is physical!!?? Satan dwells on the earth? That would be the 2nd heaven, right? Oh, I did not read far enough, he dwells in each of us, in the "garden" of our minds.

So Satan dwells in us? He doesn't just speak his thoughts to us, but dwells in us? Does that mean Wisdom dwells in us. You said, Satan is Wisdom.

Wisdom seems like a good thing and Satan seems like a bad thing.








Well, obviously I think I disagree with a lot. I don't see how you are consistent in what is not physical and merely typology/metaphors and what is physical and not typology. And how do you decide which is which?

Does Satan dwell in the "garden" of Jesus' mind? During his temptation in the wilderness, from what you write, if you are to be consistent, Satan was not a outside of Jesus, tempting Him, but inside the "garden" of His mind, part of Him, tempting Him.

In other words, what is physically real in the Bible and what is spiritual, or invisible (just as real, but not physical)?

Was Noah's Ark physical (I understand the typology of Jesus being our Ark, that would be typology).

How did you determine the Garden of Eden was typology and not physically real?

Was Samson a real person? When he brought down the temple of Dagon was that a real life story or typology? When his eyes were put out, was that real.

When Jesus referred to stories about Jonah, why would he talk as if they were real live events?

You know, all of these real live events have spiritual meaning behind them, we don't have to make everything that seems incredulous to us a typology.

I know that you think Satan is not real. That he is Wisdom (and you lost me there).

Are there any people in the Bible that were not real (such as Goliath)? Who in the Bible was made up to illustrate a spiritual lesson or meaning?

Are there any geographical places in the Bible that were not real, in the physical sense that people could see with their real, physical eyes?

If the garden was not real, when did things become real for Adam and Eve in the physical sense that they could touch, see, taste with their physical senses?

Were Cain and Abel real? Did Cain really kill Abel or was that a metaphor? When God says that His "wrath is upon the children of disobedience", is that a metaphor. What does that mean to you?

If you could give me your "rules" for determining if something is real in the physical sense or typology/metaphors that would be extremely helpful.

This is the foundation I need.

And Kathryn, if I have the Holy Spirit, how come I have never seen these foundational basics that you talk about? What does one have to do to see them? Find someone like you? Isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to lead us into all truth, if we come to Him with all of our heart, without ulterior motives?

You say Satan is a liar. Do you mean Wisdom is a liar? How can that be?

As you can see you have generated a lot of questions from me.






Rick