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Thread: Demons

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Beck,

    Forgive me, but I have no idea why you think the portion of Isaiah which Jesus read out at the start of His ministry, was anything other than part of the proclamation of the New Covenant.
    Right, he came to heal the sick, to set free those in prison, to open the eyes of the blind these are all allegorical of the new covenant. So a story says that the sick was healed and the blind eyes opened how shall be understand theses events? Literally or allegorical?

    You see the bible used these allegorical terms to relate the kingdom of God. There is a literal portion to the meaning, but the image isn't alway what is meant to be taken literal.

    Like for instance the feeding of the five thousand. The multitude in the wilderness having no bread.( Do you see the comparison?) The number of them was 5000 ( 5, 50, 500, 5000 are symbolic) They had no bread other than what God (Jesus) give them. (Also notice that Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep) He would also tell his disciples to feed them, they reply saying they had not enough money save for only 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish. (again symbolic) Jesus makes them to sit down by 50's in a group. And after all was full the disciples took up the fragments of 12 baskets (again symbolic) so that no piece would be left.(symbolic)


    For instance, what is allegorical about Jesus being nailed to a cross?

    Please tell me?
    I should have said this, that the writers expressed his 'miracles' in allegorical terms.
    Beck

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Right, he came to heal the sick, to set free those in prison, to open the eyes of the blind these are all allegorical of the new covenant. So a story says that the sick was healed and the blind eyes opened how shall be understand theses events? Literally or allegorical?

    You see the bible used these allegorical terms to relate the kingdom of God. There is a literal portion to the meaning, but the image isn't alway what is meant to be taken literal.

    Like for instance the feeding of the five thousand. The multitude in the wilderness having no bread.( Do you see the comparison?) The number of them was 5000 ( 5, 50, 500, 5000 are symbolic) They had no bread other than what God (Jesus) give them. (Also notice that Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep) He would also tell his disciples to feed them, they reply saying they had not enough money save for only 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish. (again symbolic) Jesus makes them to sit down by 50's in a group. And after all was full the disciples took up the fragments of 12 baskets (again symbolic) so that no piece would be left.(symbolic)

    I should have said this, that the writers expressed his 'miracles' in allegorical terms.
    Hi Beck,

    The only problem I have with that is the Luke said the events were delivered to him by eyewitnesses. (Luke 1:2)
    Do you know anyone that relates eyewitness events in allegories? I don't. People don't record or journal events like that. Eyewitness means you tell what you saw (and heard of course).

    Jesus' birth to Mary was a miracle, right? It is the first miracle in the NT. Do you think it was allegory or real?

    Best to you,
    Rick
    Last edited by heb13-13; 12-10-2011 at 08:51 PM.

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

    Answering the Skeptics Bible

  3. #53
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    Demons

    Right, he came to heal the sick, to set free those in prison, to open the eyes of the blind these are all allegorical of the new covenant. So a story says that the sick was healed and the blind eyes opened how shall be understand theses events? Literally or allegorical?

    You see the bible used these allegorical terms to relate the kingdom of God. There is a literal portion to the meaning, but the image isn't alway what is meant to be taken literal.

    Like for instance the feeding of the five thousand. The multitude in the wilderness having no bread.( Do you see the comparison?) The number of them was 5000 ( 5, 50, 500, 5000 are symbolic) They had no bread other than what God (Jesus) give them. (Also notice that Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep) He would also tell his disciples to feed them, they reply saying they had not enough money save for only 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish. (again symbolic) Jesus makes them to sit down by 50's in a group. And after all was full the disciples took up the fragments of 12 baskets (again symbolic) so that no piece would be left.(symbolic)
    Hi Beck,

    Echoing Rick's concern, I would say that God has seen to it that it's impossible to make this - that in the OT things were only allegory - (and many) other generalisations from the Old Testament. When Isaiah prophesied the words which Jesus read out in the synagogue that day, Isaiah was speaking forth an eternal truth.

    By that I mean that in the Spirit - that is, in God, what Jesus read out has always been the whole truth. It is necessary to 'see' the OT narrative in that light, to be able to make sense of the OT miracles which occurred through Elijah and Elisha - and Moses, and Aaron, and Samuel, and David.

    These were moderated by God in the way that Jesus explains, recorded in John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

    Also

    Luke 4:24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. 25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, [a city] of Sidon, unto a woman [that was] a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

    2 Kings 4: 32 And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, [and] laid upon his bed. 33 He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD. 34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm. 35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.


    Jesus came to show us something about the nature of God in man, knowing that He would make it possible for men to receive His death and resurrection, and at the same time, possible for those who hear His call to faith, to receive the Holy Spirit in a new way - the indwelling Holy Spirit.

    In the OT, regarding demons, there were two things going on. In the first, God had the power to send an evil spirit to trouble someone like Saul, who had been disobedient directly to God's command of him. Saul did not get a second chance.

    The second thing was the operation of a spiritual law. God had given them the Law to keep them safe in His care, through Moses at Sinai; and Moses had even had to kill those brethren who had not been obedient to their own commitment to God's word to them. Even knowing this, and that idolatry of every kind was prohibited, the people had turned to various forms of idolatry, (ie stopped looking to God for their salvation), down through the generations... many, many times. Whenever they worshipped idols, they engaged with demons (according to Paul' analysis in 1 Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils), in so doing, also committing various abominations, depending on which 'god' was receiving 'worship'. This exclusivity which we see in the New Testament is different from how God dealt with the leaders in the OT.


    If you would like me to expound upon that difference, in a future post, I will, if no-one else has done so.


    Please note, I am not for a minute implying there is no allegory in the OT. There is. But it's essential to work out which is only allegory (if there is such a thing), and which is allegorical only when compared to New Covenant reality. There is far more overlap between the two, than you infer, and this post touches only the tip of the tip of the iceberg.
    Last edited by Charisma; 12-11-2011 at 01:49 PM.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  4. #54
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    And Beck, it is not as though God has kept a shroud on the nature and workings of the powers of darkness.

    He has shown us exactly what we need to know. And through experience, what we learn in the Bible is confirmed.

    Take for instance Satan coming to God one day to accuse Job to His face.

    Did you notice the words that came out of Job's wife? It was pretty much the same conversation that took place in heaven.

    Satan spoke his accusations to Job's wife's mind and she in turn carried that message to Job. Satan works through people just like the Spirit of God does.

    All the best,
    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

    Answering the Skeptics Bible

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Beck,

    The only problem I have with that is the Luke said the events were delivered to him by eyewitnesses. (Luke 1:2)
    Do you know anyone that relates eyewitness events in allegories? I don't. People don't record or journal events like that. Eyewitness means you tell what you saw (and heard of course).
    These books of Matthew, Mark and Luke all parallel in some sence. Given that Mark had Matthew's as a copy the Luke would had both Matthew and Mark's to give him source. Luke seems to draw from Mark more maybe becasue of the language rather than Matthew which is in Hebrew. So I'm not sure just how much Luke used these eyewitnesses when having these scrolls. So one would have to take into account the language and writing style.

    Jesus' birth to Mary was a miracle, right? It is the first miracle in the NT. Do you think it was allegory or real?

    Best to you,
    Rick
    The birth as a miracle? If you're saying that a 'virgin' birth a son. Didn't that happen also in the years of Ahaz? Was it not Isaiah's son that was named Imanuel? And a virgin as a young woman?

    Real, but what is it really saying? It seems to be using an allegory.
    Beck

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Beck,

    Echoing Rick's concern, I would say that God has seen to it that it's impossible to make this - that in the OT things were only allegory - (and many) other generalisations from the Old Testament. When Isaiah prophesied the words which Jesus read out in the synagogue that day, Isaiah was speaking forth an eternal truth.
    I'm sorry Charisma I have the least of idea what you are trying to say.
    Beck

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    And Beck, it is not as though God has kept a shroud on the nature and workings of the powers of darkness.

    He has shown us exactly what we need to know. And through experience, what we learn in the Bible is confirmed.

    Take for instance Satan coming to God one day to accuse Job to His face.

    Did you notice the words that came out of Job's wife? It was pretty much the same conversation that took place in heaven.

    Satan spoke his accusations to Job's wife's mind and she in turn carried that message to Job. Satan works through people just like the Spirit of God does.

    All the best,
    Rick
    And what would you call that spirit? One could look at Peter likewise. Jesus told Peter 'satan get thee behind me' Peter having the spirit of satan. Peter was thinking from the flesh the carnal mind. Now would Jesus need to cast out that evil spirit from Peter?
    Beck

  8. #58
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    Demons

    Didn't that happen also in the years of Ahaz? Was it not Isaiah's son that was named Imanuel? And a virgin as a young woman?
    Hi Beck,

    Please could you quote the verses you have in mind?

    Many thanks.

    I'm sorry Charisma I have the least of idea what you are trying to say.
    I suppose I'm trying to say that the very real events involving named people in the OT are more than allegory. You had said:
    Originally posted by Charisma
    There is no need to assume anything.

    What you ought to do is patiently read the gospels making a note of every specific healing, every specific casting out of a demon, and every specific 'other', and then compare the terms on which Jesus carried out each kind. The apostles were making mental notes the whole time they were watching Him. They knew when they didn't understand (as Rick said) because then, they asked Him to explain.


    I understand we read the bible very differently. I see the writers expressing the life of Jesus in allegorical terms. Much the same way it was written of the Messiah to heal the broken hearted (sick) to open the blinded eyes (revelation) and to free the captives (in prison, in bondage).


    "The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, Because He did anoint me; To proclaim good news to the poor, Sent me to heal the broken of heart, To proclaim to captives deliverance, And to blind receiving of sight, To send away the bruised with deliverance" (Luke 4:18 YLT)
    The healing, setting free, receving of sight by the blind and deliverance all have to do with the old covenant and not the physical flesh of man, but the spirit and soul of man.
    What I'm trying to show you, is that not only did Jesus really (not allegorically) release the captives, heal the blind, the dumb, the deaf and the lame, in a spiritual way, but in a physical way.

    And, these things had happened in the OT already, through various national leaders (moving in the power of God, just like Jesus did). They were not allegorical in the OT either.


    Please can you re-read my post and see if it makes more sense, now?

    Blessings, brother.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    And what would you call that spirit? One could look at Peter likewise. Jesus told Peter 'satan get thee behind me' Peter having the spirit of satan. Peter was thinking from the flesh the carnal mind. Now would Jesus need to cast out that evil spirit from Peter?
    Exactly!! You got it. An accusatory spirit whispers his lies about God character to Job's wife. He already maligned God and Job face to face with God.

    Same with Peter, a demonic spirit plants "suggests" strongly an idea to Peter's carnal mind. And Peter receives it as his thought.

    You do know, don't you that not all of your thoughts are your thoughts?

    Eventually, I would like to get continue down the road on this suject of demons.

    Have a great week,
    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

    Answering the Skeptics Bible

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Beck,

    Please could you quote the verses you have in mind?

    Many thanks.
    I didn't mean to get side tracked, but here's that verse Isaiah 7:14. (typology)

    I suppose I'm trying to say that the very real events involving named people in the OT are more than allegory. You had said:

    What I'm trying to show you, is that not only did Jesus really (not allegorically) release the captives, heal the blind, the dumb, the deaf and the lame, in a spiritual way, but in a physical way.
    Okay, I see you're claiming there are two sides to these the physical and spiritual, but dosen't that negate the allegorically part?

    "demonstrative form of representation explaining meaning other than the words that are spoken. Allegory communicates its message by means of symbolic figures, actions or symbolic representation. "
    Beck

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