Demons

[Beck]

I would like to start a study in scripture concerning Demons. To start I know very little about this subject, but thought of a couple of scriptures that seem to indicate to me that 'demons' or 'devils' are written in scripture in one are two ways.

Let first gather from scripture that the word 'demon' has a meaning of 'spirit' in this case an 'unclean spirit, evil spirit or devils'. Strong's G1140 - daimonion which is translated in the KJV as devil.

The first group of scriptures I would place under the 'Possessed' category and the latter under the 'Captivity
' category. [comments are in brackets and blue]


Possessed:

Luke 8:27-30
27And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
28When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
29(For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
30And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
[Here this seems to be a case where a certain man had devils/demons inside of him, for which Christ drive them out of him]

Mark 9:17-22
17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;
18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
19He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
20And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
21And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, having compassion on us, and help us.
25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
[The disciples were unable to clean the child, so Jesus clean the child and said this kind can only come out by prayer and fasting.]



Captivity:

1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[This doesn't seem to imply the same as possession. It seems to imply being deceived by those that speak evil and have evil doctrines.]

Ephesians 6:12
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[In this sence the rulers (devils) of darkness are what we battle against, being set free from darkness]


Colossians 2:8
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ. (NIV)
[Captive here seems to be by doctrine of men]


There are allot more scriptures to compare and if you feel the need to add them please feel free. I only put these in two categories, but there are also more. The whole purpose is to get a better understanding of what it going on and how it applies.

Your thought are welcomed,

[Rose]

Mark 9:17-22
17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;
18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
19He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
20And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
21And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, having compassion on us, and help us.
25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
[The disciples were unable to clean the child, so Jesus clean the child and said this kind can only come out by prayer and fasting.]

Hi Beck

The incident of demon possession in Mark has always struck me as odd because Jesus begins by reprimanding the people for being faithless when it clearly states that the disciples themselves could not cast out the boy's demons. Secondly, the father has to beg Jesus to have compassion on their son and cast out the demon. How did Jesus expect the father of the child to be able to cast the demons out when no one had been imbued with the power of the Holy Spirit yet?

All the best,
Rose

[Beck]

Hi Beck

The incident of demon possession in Mark has always struck me as odd because Jesus begins by reprimanding the people for being faithless when it clearly states that the disciples themselves could not cast out the boy's demons. Secondly, the father has to beg Jesus to have compassion on their son and cast out the demon. How did Jesus expect the father of the child to be able to cast the demons out when no one had been imbued with the power of the Holy Spirit yet?

All the best,
Rose

Thanks Rose for given your input i never thought of it that way. I thought of Luke mentioning a certain man and how that is used many times in Jesus parables. What could these mean if they are parables in a sence?

[Rose]

Thanks Rose for given your input i never thought of it that way. I thought of Luke mentioning a certain man and how that is used many times in Jesus parables. What could these mean if they are parables in a sense?

Hi Beck

That's a good question, since it's pretty well known in our modern age that what people in the 1st century considered to be demonic possession is actually different types of psychological disorders that are curable in many cases with modern drugs. With that in mind I really don't see any parabolic value to those stories.

Rose

[Beck]

Hi Beck

That's a good question, since it's pretty well known in our modern age that what people in the 1st century considered to be demonic possession is actually different types of psychological disorders that are curable in many cases with modern drugs. With that in mind I really don't see any parabolic value to those stories.

Rose

I would agree about the psychological disorders, but I'm not sure if that is even the case. It may well not be a parable, but I ask becasue Jesus said that they shall take up serpents and heal the sick. One could understand that the serpents is as Jesus called the Phraisees and the sick as those that are unto second death. Could the meaning of demons be the unclean spirit those rulers in high places? Someone like the pharisees?

[heb13-13]

Hi Beck

That's a good question, since it's pretty well known in our modern age that what people in the 1st century considered to be demonic possession is actually different types of psychological disorders that are curable in many cases with modern drugs. With that in mind I really don't see any parabolic value to those stories.

Rose

Hi Rose,

How does the "modern age" know that these "demonic" manifestations in the 1st century were different types of psychological disorders?

If modern drugs cured the individual today why do they have to stay on the drugs? Modern drugs only suppress the manifestations by suppressing the individual (bringing them into a passive state).

But, I would really like to know how someone in the "modern age" can confidently know that the people in the 1st century had psychological problems and not demonic possession? By the way, demon oppression and possession will give you psychological problems.

Now, I understand if these people in the modern age (whoever you are talking about) don't believe in demons and the powers of darkness then they will of course say that it is psychological. You can be an expert then in any century without having to time travel to it. You can just say all presumed demonic problems have always been psychological. Is this the reasoning of the "modern age" that you are talking about? That these people think Satan and demons are myths and so everything must either be psychological or chemical?

Thanks for your reply and glad you had a memorable Anniversay.
Rick

[Rose]

Hi Rose,

How does the "modern age" know that these "demonic" manifestations in the 1st century were different types of psychological disorders?

If modern drugs cured the individual today why do they have to stay on the drugs? Modern drugs only suppress the manifestations by suppressing the individual (bringing them into a passive state).

But, I would really like to know how someone in the "modern age" can confidently know that the people in the 1st century had psychological problems and not demonic possession? By the way, demon oppression and possession will give you psychological problems.

Now, I understand if these people in the modern age (whoever you are talking about) don't believe in demons and the powers of darkness then they will of course say that it is psychological. You can be an expert then in any century without having to time travel to it. You can just say all presumed demonic problems have always been psychological. Is this the reasoning of the "modern age" that you are talking about? That these people think Satan and demons are myths and so everything must either be psychological or chemical?

Thanks for your reply and glad you had a memorable Anniversay.
Rick

Hi Rick

People with mental disorders like schizophrenia were thought to be demon possessed up until modern science discovered it is caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. Someone who lived in the 1st century with schizophrenia would have been called demon possessed. Either demons cause mental disorders or they don't, you can't have it both ways and it seems that one by one modern science is discovering the biological causes many diseases that used to be attributed to demons. However modern drugs work in helping to alleviate the symptoms of psychological disorders, it does prove that they have a biological source and not a demonic one

Now I agree if someone believes in demonic oppression or possession it can actually cause psychological problems in that person because of all the fear and anxiety caused by the mind manifests itself in the body.

Thanks for the anniversary wishes

Rose

[Beck]

Now, I understand if these people in the modern age (whoever you are talking about) don't believe in demons and the powers of darkness then they will of course say that it is psychological. You can be an expert then in any century without having to time travel to it. You can just say all presumed demonic problems have always been psychological. Is this the reasoning of the "modern age" that you are talking about? That these people think Satan and demons are myths and so everything must either be psychological or chemical?

Rick

Hi Rick,

That's a good question and in part that is one reason I wanted to search the scriptures to find out just what is written about demons and the power of darkness. As I grouped two categories of Possessed and Captivity together. There's seems to indicate that at least captivity indicates the fight against being overtaken by the power of darkness.

Now what seems to me is that alot of these terms we used to describe like 'darkness' has a deeper meaning. I mean in the sence of it's symbolize something else. Here 'darkness' in scripture indicates the same as being 'blind' or being 'asleep' in the 'night' as Paul alludes to in 1 Thess.5:4

This has little to nothing to do with being demon possessed or does it? This captivity is seem to be the ones that are hold in the darkness of disbelief of which Jesus said he came to free.

In the case of Mark 8:28-34/ Luke 8:26-40 'Demons are casted into swine' there seems to me to be a greater meaning rather than reading this as a literal event, it rather seems to speak of a parable of sort.

The unclean spirits (demons) plead with Christ that he cast them not into the sea. Again 'sea' is a symbol to denote 'peoples'. Could there be a relationship in that the unclean spirits are a symbol of those that speak evil which disbelieve to those children of Ephriam that are driven into the sea of the Gentiles?

As to some would declare that Jesus when speaking in Luke 16 'Rich man and Lazarus' is a literal event, but to carries many of the same symbol's of a parable. Which relates to the Rich man as Judah and Lazarus as Eliezer to denote 'not my people' will be called my people the children of Ephriam. So you see there can be an alternative view of demons.

[CWH]

Hi Rose,

How does the "modern age" know that these "demonic" manifestations in the 1st century were different types of psychological disorders?

If modern drugs cured the individual today why do they have to stay on the drugs? Modern drugs only suppress the manifestations by suppressing the individual (bringing them into a passive state).

But, I would really like to know how someone in the "modern age" can confidently know that the people in the 1st century had psychological problems and not demonic possession? By the way, demon oppression and possession will give you psychological problems.

Now, I understand if these people in the modern age (whoever you are talking about) don't believe in demons and the powers of darkness then they will of course say that it is psychological. You can be an expert then in any century without having to time travel to it. You can just say all presumed demonic problems have always been psychological. Is this the reasoning of the "modern age" that you are talking about? That these people think Satan and demons are myths and so everything must either be psychological or chemical?

Thanks for your reply and glad you had a memorable Anniversay.
Rick

Hi Rick,

Being a medical person, I could easily "diagnose" some diseases as stated in the Bible. Some are easily diagnosed as in leprosy; you will know a leper when you see one and a mad person when you see one. In ancient days, people attributed diseases to evil spirits and demons due to lack of understanding in the cause of diseases and came out with "cures" such as exorcism etc. As such I agree with Rose. I have special interest in how Jesus cured the sick, cast out demons and raised the dead. From my years of Bible study, there are 2 categories of the cause of diseases in the Bible:

1) Evil spirits which in modern day terms. we call them pathogens which include bacteria, virus, fungi. These are evil because they are bad and spirits because they cannot be seen with the naked eyes as spirits are unseen "beings". Bacteria, fungi, viruses are too microscopic to be seen by the naked eyes.

2) Demons which in modern day terms are causes of diseases other than through pathogens as as hormones, chemicals etc. They are call demons because they cause troubles. Many of these diseases also cause changes in their mental status rsulting in delirium as if being possessed or controlled by another being or person known as a "demon".

3) There are instances in the Bible in which one can have evil spirits and be demon possessed. I take it to mean diseases caused by pathogens resulting with signs of delirium or altered mental status. The example of the boy with the deaf and dumb spirit since birth and foaming in his mouth seems to suggest from my medical point of view to be mental retardation with epilepsy. The epilepsy since childhood could be a result of meningitis or febrile fits which caused the mental retardation.

The cures that Jesus used based on my highly speculative views are:

1) Radiation therapy - We know that radiation are used to treat many illnesses such as cancer, skin diseases etc. Xrays have been used in diagnosis. We also know that ultra-violet radiation can kill germs, fungi and viruses but also normal cells. Imagine if we could used ultra-violet radiation to kill all these pathogens yet without killing normal cells then we have an excellent treatment whereby all diseases caused by pathogens can be instantly cured within a few seconds by subjecting a sick patient to intense ultraviolet radiation. In the Gospel, it was mentioned that even the shadows of Jesus could cure illness.

2) Electro or electromagnetic therapy - Electro-shock therapy has been used to treat depression, pain and cardiac arrest. Electromagnetic equipment has been used to diagnosed diseases as in MRI. I suspect this or some form of energy was used by Jesus to cure the sick and raise the dead. Electroshock therapy requires one to touch the patient physically in order to administer the treatment. Perhaps, someone can discover a way to use Electrocution as a therapy by electrocuting the germs, viruses and fungi without electrocuting the body and cells. Electromagnetism therapy needs to be close to the patient but needs no physical contact in order to administer the electro-magnetism. This has been seen in the Gospel whereby Jesus had to touch the patient in order to cure the illness or raise the dead. In one instance, Jesus spat onto some earth to make into a poltice and applied to the eyes of a blind man. I believe the poltice helped to keep the treatment energy in situ at the blind eyes for sometime for the treatment to be effective as the blind man was told to wash at the pool of Siloam.

John 9:
10 'How then were your eyes opened?' they asked.
11 He replied, 'The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and then I could see.'

Mark 5:
A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25 And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 because she thought, 'If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.' 29 Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

30 At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, 'Who touched my clothes?'


3) Instant stem cells - How did Jesus attached a severed ear or cured a disfigured leper instantly? I would imagine someone applying a sort of powerful stem cells that worked instantly when applied to the affected area to repair damaged cells.

4) Jesus could also used a combination of several of the stated therapies.

Luke 22:
49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, 'Lord, should we strike with our swords?' 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered, 'No more of this!' And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

See my explanation of evil spirit as stated in the Gospel found in my thread:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...-and-swine-flu


In the modern world, we all know that many diseases caused by "evil spirit" are caused by germs which include viruses, bacteria, fungus. I have found an interesting topic for discussion in Matthew 12 :43-45 in which Lord Jesus uses the analogy of evil sprit and compared it with the wicked generation:

43"When an evil[a] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

Using the interpretation of evil spirit = germs, this is what I get:
"When germs is discharged from a person (through cough, sneezing, body fluids), it travels through the air and other media to lie dormant and wait to infect a suitable host. When the germs can't find any, it tries to re-infect the original host. When the germs found the original host already cured but still capable of being re-infected (perhaps the host is still weak), it gets several other virulent types of germs to propagate and evolve itself to become a new more virulent and resistant strain (so as to re-infect the original host). The original host will become more sick than he was before when he is re-infected. This is analogy of how this wicked generation will become more wicked."

This is what happened with swine flu The swine flu evolved from several flu virus strains from pigs, human and birds and become a new virulent and resistant strain worse than what it formerly was.


May God blessed us with His wisdom. In Jesus name.

[Charisma]

Hi Beck,

You and others might like to look at this book online:

Written in 1921. Many case histories in it.
http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/...n/DALindex.htm

There is also youtube footage (and audio (not youtube)) of Jim Logan's ministry to Christians on this topic, which makes it controversial, but not necessarily false.