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  1. #21
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    The Meaning of Matthew 24:4 - 5

    Welcome Timmy!





    and perhaps Yeshua was speaking in both senses and not neccesarily one or the other.
    We needed your excellent analysis of relevant supporting texts.

    It occurs to me that the claim of, 'I am God', applies in general to anyone who refuses to submit to the Father in the way that Jesus Christ submitted to Him.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by debz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Goodie View Post
    Deb,

    I agree that "coming in my name" is indicative of one who presumes Jesus as their authority or, at least, says it is authoritative.
    I disagree with your interpretation that these people are saying, in effect, "Jesus is the Christ."

    I believe Jesus is the Christ as well. But am I deceiving anyone in saying so? No.

    So, I do not get how somewhere who "verifies" Jesus as the Christ should deceive anyone...I thought this was something we all should be doing.

    Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    I don't get it...
    Hi Edward,

    I believe that many teachers and religious leaders, in the name of Christ, are deceiving people. The point of deception is not in their claim that Jesus is the Christ. Satan believes Jesus is the Christ, but we're told that he steals, kills, and destroys--and that his followers also "masquerade as angels of light." The deception/deceiving comes through much of what is taught in the name of Christianity. It keeps people from coming to a knowledge of the truth that sets us free, and instead keeps them in religious bondage. Does that make sense?
    I agree that "many teachers and religious leaders, in the name of Christ, are deceiving people." But I see nothing in the text that suggests that is what Christ was talking about in that passage. The text seem plain to me - Christ was talking about false Christs would falsely claim to be Christ by saying "I am the Christ."

    Matthew 24:5 For many shall come ... saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and ... they shall deceive ....

    The parallelism seems pretty clear.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Richard,

    I think I followed your thinking in your reply to me.

    I want to try some rudimentary Math here. If Christ = I am, then 'I am Christ' = I am I am. Would that be correct?
    Sure, but you can't go from saying only "I am" to saying "I am the I am." It just doesn't work. It's not in the text. I understand that you "like" the idea, but that is not sufficient reason to think it is true. The fact that there are people who claim Jesus is the Christ does not mean that Jesus was talking about them in that passage. That's the problem. You seem to be trying to force that passage to say something it is not saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    The thing which seems to be missing as an option amongst the possibilities you've described, is where the person is teaching about Christ 'in an orthodox way' with their lips, but their heart is far from Him.
    Yes, that is missing because it is not in the text. There are other passages that teach about false Christian teachers, but this is not one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    The effect of doing that, is that the preacher or teacher is, in fact, teaching what they think, and from their own Christless experience - while declaring it to be Christ's teaching.

    It is this silent substitution of 'self' where Christ should be, which is the deception. As I said in another thread 'by their fruits ye shall know them'.
    That may be true, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Matthew 24:5 which speaks of false Christs claiming to be Christ by saying "I am the Christ."

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    The sheep who knows the Shepherd will not be deceived easily.
    If Christianity has proven anything, it is that the "sheep" are easily deceived about everything. In my experience, Christians show much less discernment than non-religious people. Just look at the Benny Hinn Salvation Carnival or the Todd Bentley Holy Ghost Circus. They attracted hundreds of thousands of dupes, all in the name of Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    But it's very interesting in John 10, what Jesus warned about false shepherds (hirelings) and wolves.

    12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

    So, the false shepherd recognises the wolf, but unlike David who could beat a bear and a lion to save the sheep, the false shepherd simply goes missing.
    I think you misapplied the verse. The hireling is not a "false" shepherd. He is a hireling, which doesn't have any personal interest (like the shepherd) and so does not risk his own welfare for the sheep. That's exactly what the passage says "The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep." He flees because he is a hireling, not because he is a "false shepherd."
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I agree that "many teachers and religious leaders, in the name of Christ, are deceiving people." But I see nothing in the text that suggests that is what Christ was talking about in that passage. The text seem plain to me - Christ was talking about false Christs would falsely claim to be Christ by saying "I am the Christ."

    Matthew 24:5 For many shall come ... saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and ... they shall deceive ....

    The parallelism seems pretty clear.
    Hi Richard, (welcome Timmy),

    I looked up "in my name" in every occurrence of the OT and it was pretty revealing. In every case it is pretty clear that it meant someone was speaking or doing something in another's name. For instance, prophets speaking falsely in God's name or David sending some people to greet some others in his name.

    Anyway, it seem from contemporary history and maybe older history that Jesus could have also been talking about those who actually claimed to be Christ.

    List of people claimed to be Jesus

    So, clearly there have been many that have claimed, "I am Christ" and there are also many that are "false Christs" and they are deceiving many.

    What is a Christ but a Savior and what is a false Christ but a false savior and many men gather people unto themselves saying "follow me, I have the truth", when in most circumstances they are using just enough of the truth to deceive their followers.

    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

    Answering the Skeptics Bible

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Richard, (welcome Timmy),

    I looked up "in my name" in every occurrence of the OT and it was pretty revealing. In every case it is pretty clear that it meant someone was speaking or doing something in another's name. For instance, prophets speaking falsely in God's name or David sending some people to greet some others in his name.
    OK - are you suggesting that as support fro Deb's case, since it would sound stupid for a person to say "I come in the name of Christ, indeed, I am the Christ?".

    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Anyway, it seem from contemporary history and maybe older history that Jesus could have also been talking about those who actually claimed to be Christ.

    List of people claimed to be Jesus

    So, clearly there have been many that have claimed, "I am Christ" and there are also many that are "false Christs" and they are deceiving many.

    What is a Christ but a Savior and what is a false Christ but a false savior and many men gather people unto themselves saying "follow me, I have the truth", when in most circumstances they are using just enough of the truth to deceive their followers.

    Rick
    Yes, I agree - but not because of "contemporary history." Jesus was talking about first century events culminating in the destruction of the Temple (which is what the whole discourse was about, Matt 24:2).

    But that list you linked is quite revealing of the human psyche.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #26
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    Thanks for kind gestures.

    After posting on p.2, so many scriptures began running through this head.
    Many are now jotted down and a majority of the time has been spent since then looking into this.

    Yes, Charis', ultimately, the claim to The Name is synoptically about rejection/veracity.

    Although Matthew chapters 21 to 25 are riddled with Yeshua's statement about himself, the word "christ' is not a name.

    Jesus here is speaking of those in relation to him as well as in reference to himself.

    The word "christ" means "annointed", and in it's most respected referenced form refers to kingship/priesthood, even as the word "messiah."

    At face value, doesn't this phrase state: "Many will come in my name, claiming I am annointed."

    This could mean that many will come pronouncing themselves to be in one accord with the power, purpose, and authority (<===my name) of Jesus, claiming:
    1) that Jesus is annointed (of God),
    and/or
    2) they themselves are annointed (of God).

    Am i missing something?

    Timmy


    p.s. Debz, there has not yet been opportunity to check what you are saying about 5, however, this will be attempted to be accomplished ASAP.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Thanks for kind gestures.

    After posting on p.2, so many scriptures began running through this head.
    Many are now jotted down and a majority of the time has been spent since then looking into this.

    Yes, Charis', ultimately, the claim to The Name is synoptically about rejection/veracity.

    Although Matthew chapters 21 to 25 are riddled with Yeshua's statement about himself, the word "christ' is not a name.

    Jesus here is speaking of those in relation to him as well as in reference to himself.

    The word "christ" means "annointed", and in it's most respected referenced form refers to kingship/priesthood, even as the word "messiah."

    At face value, doesn't this phrase state: "Many will come in my name, claiming I am annointed."

    This could mean that many will come pronouncing themselves to be in one accord with the power, purpose, and authority (<===my name) of Jesus, claiming:
    1) that Jesus is annointed (of God),
    and/or
    2) they themselves are annointed (of God).

    Am i missing something?

    Timmy


    p.s. Debz, there has not yet been opportunity to check what you are saying about 5, however, this will be attempted to be accomplished ASAP.
    Thank you, Timmy.

    Richard...Timmy is explaining this better than I could myself. And you yourself have said in other posts that "christ" means "anointed one." His death and resurrection made the way to reproduce the "Christ," in others ("unless a grain of wheat..." and "He is the firstborn of many sons..."). So, if the entirety of Jesus' and NT teaching is really centered around becoming "like Him" -- or becoming "anointed ones" ourselves -- this is what that is referring to. However, there will be some who are TRUE in that pursuit, and others who are FALSE. It is the FALSE ones, who do not have the understanding--the eyes of their hearts were never opened--who will lead many astray.

    Timmy, I will check for your email address on your profile here, but if it is not listed, please send it to me in a private message. I will forward you a copy of my story and what I have learned after seeing the synchronicity of "555" every day for over 20 years (not an exaggeration). A lot of what I discovered as the interpretation to this "message" was confirmed through the Bible Wheel, so I am interested in feedback from those who understand both the Bible Wheel, and, at the same time, have "eyes to see."

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Thanks for kind gestures.

    After posting on p.2, so many scriptures began running through this head.
    Many are now jotted down and a majority of the time has been spent since then looking into this.

    Yes, Charis', ultimately, the claim to The Name is synoptically about rejection/veracity.

    Although Matthew chapters 21 to 25 are riddled with Yeshua's statement about himself, the word "christ' is not a name.

    Jesus here is speaking of those in relation to him as well as in reference to himself.

    The word "christ" means "annointed", and in it's most respected referenced form refers to kingship/priesthood, even as the word "messiah."

    At face value, doesn't this phrase state: "Many will come in my name, claiming I am annointed."

    This could mean that many will come pronouncing themselves to be in one accord with the power, purpose, and authority (<===my name) of Jesus, claiming:
    1) that Jesus is annointed (of God),
    and/or
    2) they themselves are annointed (of God).

    Am i missing something?

    Timmy


    p.s. Debz, there has not yet been opportunity to check what you are saying about 5, however, this will be attempted to be accomplished ASAP.
    Hey there Timmy,

    Welcome to our forum!



    I think you laid out the issue very clearly. Thanks!



    But I wouldn't say that "Christ" is "not a name."

    • Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
    • 1 Peter 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

    It's a "title" or "name" - I don't think the Bible makes a distinction between such things.

    Now as for your main point:
    This could mean that many will come pronouncing themselves to be in one accord with the power, purpose, and authority (<===my name) of Jesus, claiming:
    1) that Jesus is annointed (of God),
    and/or
    2) they themselves are annointed (of God).
    In this case, the phrase "come in my name" appears to be referring to pretending to be him. If I pretended to be the president, I would be coming "in the name of Obama." Granted, that's not how that phrase is usually used in the Bible, but all the representative cases are of people who are legitimately "coming in the name" of God or Christ. This case is different because the person coming in the name of Christ is also claiming to be Christ. That's why Christ called them "false Christs."

    The problem with your suggestion that they are claiming that "Jesus is anointed" is that it doesn't work in the parallel passages. The pronoun "I" which is taken as referring back to Jesus:

    many will come in my name, claiming that I [Jesus] am the Christ.
    many will come in my name, claiming that I [Jesus] am [???].

    So in the parallel passages, they are not claiming Christ is "annointed." They are only claiming that he "is" without even saying he said "I am" so the entire connection with the divine utterance "ego eimi" is lost.

    To say it another way, there is no "I am" in the second possibility because the "I" part of the "I am" refers back to Jesus. Deb and Charisma have tried to insert an extra "I am" to make this work, so that Jesus was saying:

    many will come in my name, claiming that I [Jesus] am [the I AM]

    But that doesn't work for me because that's not what was written.

    Is it not somewhat dismaying that folks can't even agree on such a simple sentence of the Bible? How could anyone think to get any real guidance from a book in which the meaning of every word is disputed?

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by debz View Post
    Thank you, Timmy.

    Richard...Timmy is explaining this better than I could myself. And you yourself have said in other posts that "christ" means "anointed one." His death and resurrection made the way to reproduce the "Christ," in others ("unless a grain of wheat..." and "He is the firstborn of many sons..."). So, if the entirety of Jesus' and NT teaching is really centered around becoming "like Him" -- or becoming "anointed ones" ourselves -- this is what that is referring to. However, there will be some who are TRUE in that pursuit, and others who are FALSE. It is the FALSE ones, who do not have the understanding--the eyes of their hearts were never opened--who will lead many astray.
    Hey there Deb,

    Yes, the Bible says all Christians are "anointed" and the word "Christ" derives form the word for "anointed" but it is never applied to anyone but Jesus in the NT. Therefore, we cannot take the reference to "Christ" in the verse "many shall come in my name, saying I am the Christ" as a reference to Christian teachers. The NT never calls anyone a Christ except Christ.

    And again, the fact that your interpretation might be consistent with the rest of the Bible does not mean that it's what Christ was saying in that verse. Consistency is a necessary but not a sufficient condition to determine the meaning of the text (assuming, of course, that the Bible is self-consistent).

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there Timmy, :yo:

    Welcome to our forum!

    :welcome:

    I think you laid out the issue very clearly. Thanks!

    :signthankspin:

    But I wouldn't say that "Christ" is "not a name."

    • Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
    • 1 Peter 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

    It's a "title" or "name" - I don't think the Bible makes a distinction between such things.

    Now as for your main point:
    This could mean that many will come pronouncing themselves to be in one accord with the power, purpose, and authority (<===my name) of Jesus, claiming:
    1) that Jesus is annointed (of God),
    and/or
    2) they themselves are annointed (of God).
    In this case, the phrase "come in my name" appears to be referring to pretending to be him. If I pretended to be the president, I would be coming "in the name of Obama." Granted, that's not how that phrase is usually used in the Bible, but all the representative cases are of people who are legitimately "coming in the name" of God or Christ. This case is different because the person coming in the name of Christ is also claiming to be Christ. That's why Christ called them "false Christs."

    The problem with your suggestion that they are claiming that "Jesus is anointed" is that it doesn't work in the parallel passages. The pronoun "I" which is taken as referring back to Jesus:

    many will come in my name, claiming that I [Jesus] am the Christ.
    many will come in my name, claiming that I [Jesus] am [???].

    So in the parallel passages, they are not claiming Christ is "annointed." They are only claiming that he "is" without even saying he said "I am" so the entire connection with the divine utterance "ego eimi" is lost.

    To say it another way, there is no "I am" in the second possibility because the "I" part of the "I am" refers back to Jesus. Deb and Charisma have tried to insert an extra "I am" to make this work, so that Jesus was saying:

    many will come in my name, claiming that I [Jesus] am [the I AM]

    But that doesn't work for me because that's not what was written.

    Is it not somewhat dismaying that folks can't even agree on such a simple sentence of the Bible? How could anyone think to get any real guidance from a book in which the meaning of every word is disputed?

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    Richard, I still believe you are not understanding what we are saying, and that this is an example of "straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel" ... sorry, but that is just how I see it. And yes, now we are in our second fight...

    SO, since it looks like we will not reach agreement on this, let's go back to your premise--that many will come claiming TO BE (themselves) THE Messiah. There have been many, many through the years (as Charisma's list probably points out--haven't read it yet, but have heard of many myself). And, more importantly, there have been more PROVEN ones in the past 1/2 century than there are PROVEN ones pre- 70 a.d. (I remember seeing full page ads in newspapers from guys claiming this). Your example of Thedaus (sp?) was not a very good one, IMO--there were a lot of assumptions there that could be better explained as just a dude who wanted to gather followers...egomaniac...). SO, if you are using this scripture as strong support for the preterist view, I do not see that as very strong. BTW, my eschatological views do not line up entirely with any of the "popular" views.

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