The Meaning of Matthew 24:4-5

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard and debz,

This is a really important discussion, and a great thread so far! Thank you.

I don't have a lot of time right now or I would wax verbose... I just want to pick up one line from your last post -

If you go back to what you thought Jesus was saying, you thought He was saying that others would point to themselves as 'the Christ', or, the 'I AM'. There is no conflict between the doubling of the 'I am's IF the person is pointing to themselves - which is debz' point.

But when Jesus said 'Lo Christ is... ' someplace else, that makes the false Christ someone other than the person speaking. It could as much apply to one preacher extolling another preacher, as a congregation member extolling a preacher, or, to someone right outside the established church(es) - pointing away from themselves - like people pointed to one of your (tongue in cheek) favourite people, Todd Bentley (who I know, didn't claim to be Christ, but did preach 'another Jesus'.

When Paul talked about 'another Jesus', he was referring to this phenomenon, and, that where the cross is absent from a preacher's life - so he is not pointing people the real Christ, he does (whether unwittingly or wittingly) effectively set HIMSELF up as the authority on what and who to be believed - 'another Jesus'.

Good morning Charisma,

It's good to have your insights.

You wrote "There is no conflict between the doubling of the 'I am's IF the person is pointing to themselves - which is debz' point."

I think you got it backwards. Deb's point was that the person was pointing to Christ and saying "he is the I am" just like Christian teachers do today. But they are deceptive despite the fact that they sound orthodox. That is her point as far as I can tell.

But I can't see how her interpretation could work because then there would be no one saying "I am" about themselves at all because the "I am" got changed to "he is." They would be saying "he [Christ] is the I am." If the "I" refers to Christ, they must double the "I am" -

Many will come in in my name, teaching the truth that I am the I am, and they will deceive many.

That's my problem, the text doesn't actually say anything like that. The meaning Debz suggests is not actually being stated in Matthew 24:5. We have to add too many words to the text. The plain meaning is that the false Christs will make the false assertion that they are the Christ by saying "I am the Christ" or simply "I am."

I wasn't saying there was a "conflict" with the doubling of the "I am" - my point was that it isn't in the text, and I see nothing that would justify adding it.

You wrote "when Jesus said 'Lo Christ is... ' someplace else, that makes the false Christ someone other than the person speaking."

Yes, and it makes perfect sense that the person "someplace else" was claiming to be Christ, and that fits the plain interpretation of Matthew 24:5.

I find this discussion fascinating because it shows how nothing written in the Bible can be understood with any clarity or certainty. Folks read exactly the same sentence and come to opposite conclusions with apparently no way to establish the truth of what it "really" means. This proves to me that the Bible is actually meaningless as a guide and void of any objective instructions.

I'd be very interested to know if anyone reading this thread thinks there is any objective meaning to Matthew 24:4-5 that can be established with certainty, or is it just a free-for-all where everyone believes what they want to believe? And if there is objective meaning, how do we establish what it is?

Great chatting!

Richard

[debz]

Hey there Deb,

I'm really sorry that my comments came across that way!



It didn't occur to me how that's how it would sound. I am sincerely sorry. And will try to be more careful in the future.

...No worries. I probably overreacted anyway. Reading it today, when I am not so tired, it's not that big of deal, so I am sorry!

OK - I think I understand your thesis. You are saying we should interpret the verse as follows:

Many false Christians will come in my name, and will (correctly) say that I am the I am, and they will deceive many.

Your interpretation doubles the "I am" so it has Jesus saying "they will say that I am the I am." That doesn't make any sense to me. If that's what Jesus meant, why didn't he just say it? I'm really sorry - I'm trying to be open-minded but it seems like you are trying to force an interpretation upon the text.


The word Christ means "anointed one." If Theudas was a "false anointed one" then he was a "false Christ" like those Christ warned would come:

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Who are these "false Christs" that shall "deceive many" if not those who claim to be Christ by saying "I am the Christ?"

Both verses are from Matthew 24. Same context. Both say the same thing, that they shall deceive.

If there really is a warning about deceptive church leaders in this passage, it is very well hidden from my eyes.

All the best,

Richard

Let's say that it does read as if they are claiming themselves to be "THE Christ" (THE Messiah) -- I know throughout history there have been people who claim that. However, your example of Theudas is just assuming this is what he was saying, so I do not believe it proves your point.

On the other hand, Jesus was to be the firstborn of many brothers, those who would be conformed to His likeness (Rom 8:19). "Christ within us" (the anointing of the Holy Spirit/the Divine Presence) is supposed to increase until we grow up "...until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" (Eph 4.13). The whole measure is becoming just like Him. These are also sons of God, sons of the Kingdom, etc.--little "anointed ones." Of people who claim to know and follow Him, there are those who are true, and those who are false. There are other passages warning about discerning true or false brothers, false apostles, etc. They are either true--really have the true Christ within and are seeking His ultimate purpose--or false, claiming to follow Christ and know Him, but not really, and therefore able to lead people astray. They have the appearance (outwardly) of something they really are not inwardly.

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." Matt 7:15

"He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him." John 7:18

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." 2 Cor 11:13-15

"[This matter arose] because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you." Gal 2:4-5

...This verse is especially appropriate in describing many church leaders--do you not agree that many are trying to keep people in religious bondage, rather than the freedom we are to really have in Christ Jesus? Just as He taught, "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." I believe there certainly are many "false" brothers, "false apostles," "false prophets" among us today.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

...No worries. I probably overreacted anyway. Reading it today, when I am not so tired, it's not that big of deal, so I am sorry!

Wonderful! We just got over our first fight!

Let's say that it does read as if they are claiming themselves to be "THE Christ" (THE Messiah) -- I know throughout history there have been people who claim that. However, your example of Theudas is just assuming this is what he was saying, so I do not believe it proves your point.

On the other hand, Jesus was to be the firstborn of many brothers, those who would be conformed to His likeness (Rom 8:19). "Christ within us" (the anointing of the Holy Spirit/the Divine Presence) is supposed to increase until we grow up "...until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" (Eph 4.13). The whole measure is becoming just like Him. These are also sons of God, sons of the Kingdom, etc.--little "anointed ones." Of people who claim to know and follow Him, there are those who are true, and those who are false. There are other passages warning about discerning true or false brothers, false apostles, etc. They are either true--really have the true Christ within and are seeking His ultimate purpose--or false, claiming to follow Christ and know Him, but not really, and therefore able to lead people astray. They have the appearance (outwardly) of something they really are not inwardly.

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." Matt 7:15

"He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him." John 7:18

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." 2 Cor 11:13-15

"[This matter arose] because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you." Gal 2:4-5

...This verse is especially appropriate in describing many church leaders--do you not agree that many are trying to keep people in religious bondage, rather than the freedom we are to really have in Christ Jesus? Just as He taught, "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." I believe there certainly are many "false" brothers, "false apostles," "false prophets" among us today.

Those are clear verses and I have no problem with their plain meaning. They teach about false teachers, wolves in sheep's clothing, who look like real Christians but are not. I agree completely. But I do not see that as being the case in Matthew 24:5 because there Jesus is quoting what they would be saying, namely "I am Christ" not "he is Christ."

As for Theudas ~ he was an example of someone who made claims about himself and misled people. Everything the text says about him fits with the false Christs of Matthew 24:5. The fact that the text does not tell us that he specifically claimed to be the Messiah doesn't prove he didn't, and we know such claims were common at that time in history. So I agree that Theudas doesn't provide an iron-clad proof but he certainly does put the lion's share of the weight on the standard interpretation.

[Edward Goodie]

...I still believe the parallel passages are saying the same thing...just because the Matthew verse adds "the Christ," doesn't change the idea presented. He is still saying, "many will come in my name (in the name of Christianity/claiming their ministry is somehow validated by Him, etc.), and claiming that I (Jesus) am the Christ...or in the other passages: claiming that I (Jesus) am THE I AM. Many preach "in His name" that He is the Christ, and that He is the "I AM."

Deb,

I agree that "coming in my name" is indicative of one who presumes Jesus as their authority or, at least, says it is authoritative.
I disagree with your interpretation that these people are saying, in effect, "Jesus is the Christ."

I believe Jesus is the Christ as well. But am I deceiving anyone in saying so? No.

So, I do not get how somewhere who "verifies" Jesus as the Christ should deceive anyone...I thought this was something we all should be doing.

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I don't get it...

[debz]

Wonderful! We just got over our first fight!




Those are clear verses and I have no problem with their plain meaning. They teach about false teachers, wolves in sheep's clothing, who look like real Christians but are not. I agree completely. But I do not see that as being the case in Matthew 24:5 because there Jesus is quoting what they would be saying, namely "I am Christ" not "he is Christ."

As for Theudas ~ he was an example of someone who made claims about himself and misled people. Everything the text says about him fits with the false Christs of Matthew 24:5. The fact that the text does not tell us that he specifically claimed to be the Messiah doesn't prove he didn't, and we know such claims were common at that time in history. So I agree that Theudas doesn't provide an iron-clad proof but he certainly does put the lion's share of the weight on the standard interpretation.

OK, so Theudas is the only example, and not iron-clad proof, and the text says "MANY" would be claiming this. I still believe the texts are saying that many will come on the basis of His name, saying He's the I AM and THE Christ, and I do understand how you think it should then read: "saying that I am the I Am..."

I also believe this because much of the rest of the discourse has yet to be fulfilled. For example, when in history were the powers of the heavens shaken to such a degree that men were utterly terrified at what they perceived to be coming on earth? When did Jesus come with great power and glory? There are many other unfulfilled prophecies related to this power and glory coming. Dan 7 speaks of one 'coming in the clouds,' and later that the 'horn will wage war against the saints UNTIL the time came when they would possess the kingdom' – there has not yet been a time when the saints have 'possessed the kingdom' – which is also related to the discourse, because the gospel of the KINGDOM is what is to be preached before 'then end' comes (not the gospel of salvation) – people are just now starting to get revelation on the KINGDOM. Revelations says there will be a point where 'the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.' I do not believe this means 'God the Father and HIS Christ (Jesus),' but rather, 'Our Lord (Jesus) and HIS Christ—His 'anointed ones' – His Body. There is meant to be a generation that attains the fullness, perfection, 'entering His rest,' etc. That has not happened yet. It is the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles.

You are right in your other post that the way each of us interprets Mt 24:17 is an example of how it is not straightforward enough for everyone to be in agreement. But I also believe that was deliberate. When Jesus came the first time, very few recognized Him or understood His purpose, even those who diligently studied the prophecies for centuries. I believe this is the same with His second coming (parousia), and it cannot be understood without revelation. It is why Jesus spoke in parables, it is what Paul wrote about regarding the 'mystery.' It is why we 'see in part' and 'know in part' now – because we have not attained to that 'perfection' ('but when perfection comes, we will know fully' (1 Cor 13:9-12). When 'perfection' comes, that means we, as His Body, have attained the full measure of His stature (Eph 4). That has not happened yet. Jesus prayed for us to be 'perfected in love' – that certainly has not happened yet.

[debz]

Deb,

I agree that "coming in my name" is indicative of one who presumes Jesus as their authority or, at least, says it is authoritative.
I disagree with your interpretation that these people are saying, in effect, "Jesus is the Christ."

I believe Jesus is the Christ as well. But am I deceiving anyone in saying so? No.

So, I do not get how somewhere who "verifies" Jesus as the Christ should deceive anyone...I thought this was something we all should be doing.

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I don't get it...

Hi Edward,

I believe that many teachers and religious leaders, in the name of Christ, are deceiving people. The point of deception is not in their claim that Jesus is the Christ. Satan believes Jesus is the Christ, but we're told that he steals, kills, and destroys--and that his followers also "masquerade as angels of light." The deception/deceiving comes through much of what is taught in the name of Christianity. It keeps people from coming to a knowledge of the truth that sets us free, and instead keeps them in religious bondage. Does that make sense?

[Charisma]

Hi Richard,

I think I followed your thinking in your reply to me.

I want to try some rudimentary Math here. If Christ = I am, then 'I am Christ' = I am I am. Would that be correct?

The thing which seems to be missing as an option amongst the possibilities you've described, is where the person is teaching about Christ 'in an orthodox way' with their lips, but their heart is far from Him.

The effect of doing that, is that the preacher or teacher is, in fact, teaching what they think, and from their own Christless experience - while declaring it to be Christ's teaching.

It is this silent substitution of 'self' where Christ should be, which is the deception. As I said in another thread 'by their fruits ye shall know them'.

Psalms 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [is] good:
blessed [is] the man [that] trusteth in him.

The sheep who knows the Shepherd will not be deceived easily.

But it's very interesting in John 10, what Jesus warned about false shepherds (hirelings) and wolves.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

So, the false shepherd recognises the wolf, but unlike David who could beat a bear and a lion to save the sheep, the false shepherd simply goes missing.

It is clear from both the Lord's teaching, and Paul's teaching, that the right kind of shepherding was Jesus' kind of shepherding, where the shepherd lays his life down for the sheep. This is one of the signs of a safe pastor. Another is, the fruit of the Spirit. Those who do not manifest Christ, are false. They have no authority to proclaim Christ as if they know Him, or, as if they know where He might be found.

[debz]

Hi Richard,

I think I followed your thinking in your reply to me.

I want to try some rudimentary Math here. If Christ = I am, then 'I am Christ' = I am I am. Would that be correct?

The thing which seems to be missing as an option amongst the possibilities you've described, is where the person is teaching about Christ 'in an orthodox way' with their lips, but their heart is far from Him.

The effect of doing that, is that the preacher or teacher is, in fact, teaching what they think, and from their own Christless experience - while declaring it to be Christ's teaching.

It is this silent substitution of 'self' where Christ should be, which is the deception. As I said in another thread 'by their fruits ye shall know them'.

Psalms 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [is] good:
blessed [is] the man [that] trusteth in him.

The sheep who knows the Shepherd will not be deceived easily.

But it's very interesting in John 10, what Jesus warned about false shepherds (hirelings) and wolves.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

So, the false shepherd recognises the wolf, but unlike David who could beat a bear and a lion to save the sheep, the false shepherd simply goes missing.

It is clear from both the Lord's teaching, and Paul's teaching, that the right kind of shepherding was Jesus' kind of shepherding, where the shepherd lays his life down for the sheep. This is one of the signs of a safe pastor. Another is, the fruit of the Spirit. Those who do not manifest Christ, are false. They have no authority to proclaim Christ as if they know Him, or, as if they know where He might be found.

Hi Charisma,

I agree with all this. However, I think you may not understand what exactly Richard and I are disagreeing on. He is saying that the verse reads, "Many will come in my name claiming to be The Messiah," or "claiming to be I AM" (claiming to BE God). I believe that because the phrase "coming in My name" is used, that it is referring to those who believe to be acting on the basis of having God's authority validating their words--whether they are true believers or "hirelings" or complete imposters -- I believe the text is saying that they will claim that Jesus is the Christ, they will claim that Jesus is God, but yet they will still be deceiving others.

[Timmy]

Shabbat shalom and shalom to all!

Thank you RAM for this priveledge of permission to interact here.

[(Yesss, i'm a newbie, STS. Lurking here long before "L. S." suggested this one sitting right here might add to the discussions. Thanks as well for the Bible Wheel as it has helped in times past in 'Pardez' scriptural studies, particularily working in Drash and Sod--numerics comparative to triplets and pictures behind the symbols of the letters. The Bible Wheel has been quite an assistance in Remez as well.) More than others, i am guilty of straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. As well, searching out the truth, tendencies are to become like the Pitbull not even a breaker stick could help alleviate vice-grip teeth clamped down until resolution comes. For those who are wary of this, with a cattle prod in one hand and a baseball bat in the other, apply due force accordingly]

i can tend to get too focused on finding an answer unquestionable, then miss the whole point in the process.




Anyway, reading through this discussion, there is a stirring to mention more possibilities of discussion before conclusions are completely fixed.

The Koine' is not so specific as Hebrew, and perhaps Yeshua was speaking in both senses and not neccesarily one or the other.

"Eiyah Ascher Eiyah"-I AM as always I AM-- is Yaweh's declaration to Moshe at the burning bush about who he is to tell others who he is representing. This both is and is not saying the same thing as "Ego Eimi."

(Understanding that the last days follow Yeshua's resurection all the way towards the very end of this kosmos, we see that what he says here has happened repeatedly (in both senses) and will continue to wax more prevalent (in both senses) until the Day of the LORD.)


Looking at context, we see that the previous chapter is all about Yeshua's denouncing the religious establishment, as well as those promoting and living out those errors. . .one example being " straining at a gnat only to swallow a gimel."

Verses 24.11-12 of Matthew are relative as portion of passage in question as well. . .and from this we could also consider II Thess. 2.
(How can many be decieved if they have not been dumbed down in the first place?)

This dumbing down is an act of God as revealed in II Thess. 2.9b-12.
Further we can see clearly the dumbing down process explained in detail by Rabbi Shaul in Rom. 1.18-2.5: the dumbing down towards being decievable is found at vv. 21d-22, 25, 28. God abandoning those losing discernment is also at three points accordingly, and respectively, in vv. 24, 26, 28.
(It is as applicable in the future or at present or from times in the past.)


In the end of Mt. 23--vv. 37-39-- Yeshua laments Yeru-shalom's rightful inhabitants (="house", see Jer. 22.5) being abandoned by Yaweh.
Yet, consider the last word of His prophetic defamation before he leaves the Temple in dissapointment walking to the Mount of Olives, before his fifth ( aka:the Olivet) and final discourse, (vv. 38-39), "Look, your "house" is abandoned to you, desolate; because i tell you, you shall see me no more til you say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD."
(This statement infers a Hebraic colloqualism indicating both "(blessed is) this our Messiah," and as well, "(blessed is) Yaweh's embassador.")

For these reasons:
1) abandonment by God (because of loving and believing lies over truth)
2) and the resulting deception (as discernment wanes through this process)
3) historic proofs of both applications of what those 2 verses mean to be proven accurate. . .
4) context

. . .it is wondered if it is not saying both: many will claim to be, and many will claim 'Jesus is the Christ.'

If this is correct, Mt. 24.4-5 does not neccesarily apply only to leaders of various movements, but followers who claim things of this nature.


Whatcha' think?

Timmy

[debz]

Shabbat shalom and shalom to all!

Thank you RAM for this priveledge of permission to interact here.

[(Yesss, i'm a newbie, STS. Lurking here long before "L. S." suggested this one sitting right here might add to the discussions. Thanks as well for the Bible Wheel as it has helped in times past in 'Pardez' scriptural studies, particularily working in Drash and Sod--numerics comparative to triplets and pictures behind the symbols of the letters. The Bible Wheel has been quite an assistance in Remez as well.) More than others, i am guilty of straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. As well, searching out the truth, tendencies are to become like the Pitbull not even a breaker stick could help alleviate vice-grip teeth clamped down until resolution comes. For those who are wary of this, with a cattle prod in one hand and a baseball bat in the other, apply due force accordingly]

i can tend to get too focused on finding an answer unquestionable, then miss the whole point in the process.




Anyway, reading through this discussion, there is a stirring to mention more possibilities of discussion before conclusions are completely fixed.

The Koine' is not so specific as Hebrew, and perhaps Yeshua was speaking in both senses and not neccesarily one or the other.

"Eiyah Ascher Eiyah"-I AM as always I AM-- is Yaweh's declaration to Moshe at the burning bush about who he is to tell others who he is representing. This both is and is not saying the same thing as "Ego Eimi."

(Understanding that the last days follow Yeshua's resurection all the way towards the very end of this kosmos, we see that what he says here has happened repeatedly (in both senses) and will continue to wax more prevalent (in both senses) until the Day of the LORD.)


Looking at context, we see that the previous chapter is all about Yeshua's denouncing the religious establishment, as well as those promoting and living out those errors. . .one example being " straining at a gnat only to swallow a gimel."

Verses 24.11-12 of Matthew are relative as portion of passage in question as well. . .and from this we could also consider II Thess. 2.
(How can many be decieved if they have not been dumbed down in the first place?)

This dumbing down is an act of God as revealed in II Thess. 2.9b-12.
Further we can see clearly the dumbing down process explained in detail by Rabbi Shaul in Rom. 1.18-2.5: the dumbing down towards being decievable is found at vv. 21d-22, 25, 28. God abandoning those losing discernment is also at three points accordingly, and respectively, in vv. 24, 26, 28.
(It is as applicable in the future or at present or from times in the past.)


In the end of Mt. 23--vv. 37-39-- Yeshua laments Yeru-shalom's rightful inhabitants (="house", see Jer. 22.5) being abandoned by Yaweh.
Yet, consider the last word of His prophetic defamation before he leaves the Temple in dissapointment walking to the Mount of Olives, before his fifth ( aka:the Olivet) and final discourse, (vv. 38-39), "Look, your "house" is abandoned to you, desolate; because i tell you, you shall see me no more til you say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD."
(This statement infers a Hebraic colloqualism indicating both "(blessed is) this our Messiah," and as well, "(blessed is) Yaweh's embassador.")

For these reasons:
1) abandonment by God (because of loving and believing lies over truth)
2) and the resulting deception (as discernment wanes through this process)
3) historic proofs of both applications of what those 2 verses mean to be proven accurate. . .
4) context

. . .it is wondered if it is not saying both: many will claim to be, and many will claim 'Jesus is the Christ.'

If this is correct, Mt. 24.4-5 does not neccesarily apply only to leaders of various movements, but followers who claim things of this nature.


Whatcha' think?

Timmy

Timmy, thanks for coming out of "lurking" status!! WOW, and Yes, yes, yes! I don't understand some of the things you are saying, but I understand enough to see I think we are all actually tracking toward the same end. I agree that the "last days" are from the resurrection until the end of "this age." ...I am really curious about your comment on "triplets" and numbers...I've been seeing "555" every day for over 20 years...would this be related? I believe the Lord has revealed much to me about the meaning behind this. Would you mind reading what I have written on that and giving feedback? If so, PM me your email address!

Thanks!