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  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Why should we make those associations with Rachel? What do we really learn from her character in the story? Is the mere fact that she was "yapheh" (root of Tipharet = Beauty) sufficient to build Qabbalistic doctrines?
    Thanks, I didn't know that one.
    No, she has been a mystery to me for a few years now. Why was she not at the reunion of the Brothers and Joseph???
    That is what brought me to her. Aslo the Samamritan woman at the well. Jesus pointed out that it was he that spoke to her (Messiah)
    Once a few things "fit together" you can expect much much more. I do!


    Don't have time right now. Gotta get to work.
    But this is the place on the site where we talk about synchronicities isn't it??
    Everything is Synchronizing just fine. Mysteries (like Rachel) being revealed by your dream and football players and all kinds of stuff.
    This is the Machinery of the Universe, the spiritual experience of Yesod. Enlightened by the Spiritual experience of Tipareth. All the Gears are meshing. You need a Synchro in a transmission of your car or you can change gears. etc, etc.,
    Bye for now,
    Bob

    Yes, it is wonderful to be able to discuss these things. There is much meaning here. I trust you don't mind that I throw in a little astringent to clear our nasal passages once in a while!

    Great chatting my good friend!

    Richard

    PS: Rose and I watch Man of La Mancha last night. Fantastic movie! I had no idea what I was in for.[/QUOTE]
    Harry Potter,.. "Is this all happening in my head, or is it real?"
    Professor Dumbledor,.. "Of course it's all happening in your head. What makes you think that means it isn't real?"

  2. #192
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    resistance

    Bob: You need a Synchro in a transmission of your car or you can change gears. etc, etc.,

    Hi Bob....just wanted to add to this; you need to remove the "resister" out of the circuit, for the flow to increase. The word for "to resist him" is "satan".

    There are only two things we need to know: Christ is in and through ALL things therefore all things will express His character and purposes, His Heart of Love.(what "things" are left out of that equation?)
    Either we trust in that Love and let go....or we continue to be double minded, straining to apprehend it(arrest..take captive) .

    The Mystery of Christ and His relationship with His Body...is given in type, as the physical relationship between a man and wife. We don't analyse during intercourse, or strain to apprehend our Lover... we release ourselves into Love. (once we KNOW the Heart of our Lover)
    Last edited by kathryn; 12-22-2011 at 07:43 AM.

  3. #193
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    PASSION

    And I might add, that our Lover is just as passionate, if not more so, to communicate Love than we are at first, to apprehend it. When we finally realize this and open to this divine communication of Love in and through all things, our Lover comes "suddenly" to the temple.
    Last edited by kathryn; 12-22-2011 at 07:49 AM.

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Well, that's just a bad translation. It really means "There shall be no more delay." It not saying anything about the concept of "time" not being a part of our interpretation or worldview.
    Time shall be no more, or there shall be no more delay. what's the difference?
    Either would have Reaffirmed what I was already seeing.
    The woman at the well believed that the messiah would come. She was receptive to the whole concept.
    When he did come she asked him water to drink. When he told her all things whatsoever she did she belived immediately. She became a conduit to truth and those of her town also belived.
    Her conception of time (As referring to the first coming) was changed.
    He is here, NOW!!! We have waited for thousands of years and he is here, NOW!!!!

    The same change in our concept of time (as referring to the Second Coming) must also change!!!
    He is HERE, NOW!!!

    That is my point. And it didn't just get here because of a few lines concerning the Samaritan woman or Rachel.
    They just added to what was already forming in my mind. And already being synchronised in my surroundings and conversations etc. He is telling me all things ever I did!!!
    Rachel is the receptive part of us as is the Samaritan woman. But that state of awareness is "Hidden".
    This is the overlap of Tipareth (Beauty) with Kether (Concealed of the Concealed.)

    The angel in the card Temperance is the angel in the book of revelations with one foot on land and one on water. We realated all of this to the Tipareth experience in the Matthew 17 thread. It fit with the 11th chapter of the book of Revelation.
    I just backed up one chapter and found the Time shall be no more line.

    I had already come to this conclusion mostly because of the hard headedness of the Preterist and Futurist arguments on the forum.
    One looking back and the other looking forward and no one willing to drop their interpretations long enough to consider that IT IS Happening Now.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    The solution to the "end time stuff" is not so easy. Most of the evidence points to the Preterist solution. But no interpretation is perfect, so I have concluded that the Bible is logically incoherent on this point.
    Of course it is logically incoherent. It is not a book on logic. You want logic, read Aristotle.
    And then you can blame him for the preponderance of left brain thinking that pervades the entire civilization.
    If we want enlightenment we need to take that Center Perception.

    Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

    When we realize that he IS it shortly comes to pass. When we only look at things which were or things which will be and will not consider the IS it will never come to pass for us.
    That is my point concerning the conception of time.
    When I was a new semi-truck driver I spent two weeks with a trainer. Even though I had gone through school, it is standard to ride with a trainer when you start with a new company.
    Standard Truck transmissions do not have Synchros. To get the gears to line up so that the teeth are "Coincident" with each other you hve to "Double Clutch". You push in the clutch to get it out of gear.
    Then you must let the clutch pedal come completely up. This lines up the gears and allows them to s"Synchronize." Only then can you push in the clutch pedal again to move up to the next gear.
    Manual transmissions in cars do not require this procedure because they have "Synchros" in the transmission.
    The first week I had trouble getting from one gear to another without grinding gears, until my trainer noticed
    that I was not letting the clutch pedal come all the way up every time I shifted.
    Once we discovered my mistake there were no more grinding of gears.

    The Samaritan woman was able to shift gears and believe because she saw the synchronicites in the appearance of the Messaiah. "He told me all things whatsoever I did."

    Joh 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

    Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
    Joh 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

    Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

    Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    But it can't just be ignored because it plays such a central role in the story, which is probably why it has deluded so many people over the course of history. This then shows either that the Bible corrupts the minds of those who take it seriously or reveals the corruption that was already there. In either case, it makes things worse rather than better. Has any nutcase date-setter ever been healed by the Bible? I doubt it. It seems to greatly aggravate the condition of "end times madness."
    The nut case date setter will not throw his transmission into neutral long enough to see the synchronicities or to let the clutch all the way up so that he can get into the next gear.
    He is so busy putting together a structure for the future that he is missing what is going on all around him.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Yes, that's exactly how I saw things when I was writing the Bible Wheel book. For example, here is a quote I used in Chapter 3 that expressed my perception quite well:
    In this mighty movement from God to God the Cross of Christ is the center of all history. Not indeed as to time, but spiritually and really, and therefore as to the history of salvation, it is the center of all world events. The Cross is the one, incomparable, central event in universal history, surpassing all else in significance. Therefore in the Chart it stands not only as the middle point of the long extended section which represents the course of history, but in size and height it surpasses in the drawing all other representations of events in the whole plan of salvation.
    The Cross, Resurrection and Pentecost (and you might throw 70 AD in for good measure) was a turning point in history in that something was available to everyone that was not previous to those event playing out in Earth. The shadow play was complete.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    This is why the Bible is so rich - it contains transcendent archetypal symbols. It does let a lot of light shine through. But on the other hand, it's got a lot of crap in it that seems better to reject than to try to "explain" or fit into some system.
    I reject nothing. If I do not understand it it is because I do not yet see it in the correct light.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Why should we make those associations with Rachel? What do we really learn from her character in the story? Is the mere fact that she was "yapheh" (root of Tipharet = Beauty) sufficient to build Qabbalistic doctrines?
    Why not? If I am wrong it will be made plain, but if I am right I will be open to more revelation as time goes on concerning Rachel. I can always toss it as wrong anytime I like.
    Her not being at the reunion is a great mystery. She was there as the moon in Joseph's dream. Yet she was already buried in Bethlehem at the time of the fulfillment of the dream.
    If it does not make sense, look deeper.

    Bob



    Yes, it is wonderful to be able to discuss these things. There is much meaning here. I trust you don't mind that I throw in a little astringent to clear our nasal passages once in a while!

    Great chatting my good friend!

    Richard

    PS: Rose and I watch Man of La Mancha last night. Fantastic movie! I had no idea what I was in for.[/QUOTE]
    Harry Potter,.. "Is this all happening in my head, or is it real?"
    Professor Dumbledor,.. "Of course it's all happening in your head. What makes you think that means it isn't real?"

  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Time shall be no more, or there shall be no more delay. what's the difference?
    Either would have Reaffirmed what I was already seeing.
    The woman at the well believed that the messiah would come. She was receptive to the whole concept.
    When he did come she asked him water to drink. When he told her all things whatsoever she did she belived immediately. She became a conduit to truth and those of her town also belived.
    Her conception of time (As referring to the first coming) was changed.
    He is here, NOW!!! We have waited for thousands of years and he is here, NOW!!!!

    The same change in our concept of time (as referring to the Second Coming) must also change!!!
    He is HERE, NOW!!!

    That is my point. And it didn't just get here because of a few lines concerning the Samaritan woman or Rachel.
    They just added to what was already forming in my mind. And already being synchronised in my surroundings and conversations etc. He is telling me all things ever I did!!!
    Rachel is the receptive part of us as is the Samaritan woman. But that state of awareness is "Hidden".
    This is the overlap of Tipareth (Beauty) with Kether (Concealed of the Concealed.)

    The angel in the card Temperance is the angel in the book of revelations with one foot on land and one on water. We realated all of this to the Tipareth experience in the Matthew 17 thread. It fit with the 11th chapter of the book of Revelation.
    I just backed up one chapter and found the Time shall be no more line.

    I had already come to this conclusion mostly because of the hard headedness of the Preterist and Futurist arguments on the forum.
    One looking back and the other looking forward and no one willing to drop their interpretations long enough to consider that IT IS Happening Now.
    Well, I would not say her "conception of time was changed" - she was merely told what time it was! The time had come for messiah to appear. I see no change in "conception of time."

    Much of what you say makes sense but I see no reason for your special decontextualized application of the phrase "time shall be no more." That phrase was part of a narrative of the book of Revelation. I don't see any reason to snatch it out of context and apply it to current events.

    I don't understand what you mean when you say that "no one willing to drop their interpretations long enough to consider that IT IS Happening Now" because that's what most Futurists believe. I think you must be talking about a different kind of "happening" - meaning, Revelation is symbolic of the psycho-spiritual dynamics of each person's life at the moment of their awakening? Is that how you interpret it? Has it always been happening "now?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    The solution to the "end time stuff" is not so easy. Most of the evidence points to the Preterist solution. But no interpretation is perfect, so I have concluded that the Bible is logically incoherent on this point.
    Of course it is logically incoherent. It is not a book on logic. You want logic, read Aristotle.
    And then you can blame him for the preponderance of left brain thinking that pervades the entire civilization.
    If we want enlightenment we need to take that Center Perception.
    Ha! That is well put. But it doesn't actually solve the issue. Right-brain wholeness is not "logically incoherent" - it's beyond logic. It can't be comprehended by logic, but that does not mean it is logically incoherent. The problem with the Biblical eschatology is that it appears to be logically incoherent - or we simply don't know how to interpret some of the statements. But any attempt to make it logically coherent ends up being very unconvincing to me, so I just dropped the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

    When we realize that he IS it shortly comes to pass. When we only look at things which were or things which will be and will not consider the IS it will never come to pass for us.
    That is my point concerning the conception of time.
    When I was a new semi-truck driver I spent two weeks with a trainer. Even though I had gone through school, it is standard to ride with a trainer when you start with a new company.
    Standard Truck transmissions do not have Synchros. To get the gears to line up so that the teeth are "Coincident" with each other you hve to "Double Clutch". You push in the clutch to get it out of gear.
    Then you must let the clutch pedal come completely up. This lines up the gears and allows them to s"Synchronize." Only then can you push in the clutch pedal again to move up to the next gear.
    Manual transmissions in cars do not require this procedure because they have "Synchros" in the transmission.
    The first week I had trouble getting from one gear to another without grinding gears, until my trainer noticed
    that I was not letting the clutch pedal come all the way up every time I shifted.
    Once we discovered my mistake there were no more grinding of gears.

    The Samaritan woman was able to shift gears and believe because she saw the synchronicites in the appearance of the Messaiah. "He told me all things whatsoever I did."

    Joh 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

    Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
    Joh 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

    Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

    Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
    So it looks like you have completely decontextualized the words. The Samaritan woman would not have "seen Christ" if he hadn't been there. It was not "synchronicities" that alerted her to his identity. It was his prophetic speech, followed by his explicit statement. Nothing like that is going on with us here and now. Sure, there are plenty of synchronicities happening, and we are trying to interpret them. But I see no justification to take time statements that were true 2000 years ago, and apply them to our current situation as if they were true now. That would be like saying that it's always the "sixth hour" because that was the time that Jesus met the Samaritan woman.

    I'm still not clear on your interpretation. Are you saying that it is ALWAYS NOW in the sense that the Messiah is always here now talking to us? Or is it NOW in a special sense indicated by the appearance of synchronicities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Yes, that's exactly how I saw things when I was writing the Bible Wheel book. For example, here is a quote I used in Chapter 3 that expressed my perception quite well:In this mighty movement from God to God the Cross of Christ is the center of all history. Not indeed as to time, but spiritually and really, and therefore as to the history of salvation, it is the center of all world events. The Cross is the one, incomparable, central event in universal history, surpassing all else in significance. Therefore in the Chart it stands not only as the middle point of the long extended section which represents the course of history, but in size and height it surpasses in the drawing all other representations of events in the whole plan of salvation.
    The Cross, Resurrection and Pentecost (and you might throw 70 AD in for good measure) was a turning point in history in that something was available to everyone that was not previous to those event playing out in Earth. The shadow play was complete.
    Those events were just "shadow play?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    This is why the Bible is so rich - it contains transcendent archetypal symbols. It does let a lot of light shine through. But on the other hand, it's got a lot of crap in it that seems better to reject than to try to "explain" or fit into some system.
    I reject nothing. If I do not understand it it is because I do not yet see it in the correct light.
    Right - and that's what destroys such a system in my estimation. If I must contort the Bible until it fits my system it has no real value and gives no real insight. It doesn't actually inform me about anything because I am the one "forming" what the Bible says. I might as well start with the Sunday comics and contort them to fit my system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Why should we make those associations with Rachel? What do we really learn from her character in the story? Is the mere fact that she was "yapheh" (root of Tipharet = Beauty) sufficient to build Qabbalistic doctrines?
    Why not? If I am wrong it will be made plain, but if I am right I will be open to more revelation as time goes on concerning Rachel. I can always toss it as wrong anytime I like.
    Her not being at the reunion is a great mystery. She was there as the moon in Joseph's dream. Yet she was already buried in Bethlehem at the time of the fulfillment of the dream.
    If it does not make sense, look deeper.
    Why not associate them with the price of tea in China too? And last Sunday's comics? You had made some statements of fact as if you had knowledge that "This is Rachel who was Beautiful and 'Well Favored.' This is the woman at Jacob's well who shows a fulfillment of the story of Rachel who met Jacob at the same well. This is us reaching Tipareth." I was merely asking if there was a reason for your assertions. There's no need to get defensive. I was just asking ...

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Well, I would not say her "conception of time was changed" - she was merely told what time it was! The time had come for messiah to appear. I see no change in "conception of time."
    Time as concerning the coming. We are waiting for something that we see as not being here yet. When, in fact, it is. Just as she did.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Much of what you say makes sense but I see no reason for your special decontextualized application of the phrase "time shall be no more." That phrase was part of a narrative of the book of Revelation. I don't see any reason to snatch it out of context and apply it to current events.
    In context has it's benefit and we should watch that when studying the Bible.
    But, conversely, it is important to allow things that are "out of context" to come into our minds because we don't see the entire context. The big picture. Jesus and Paul took one liners out of the OT (out of context) to illustrate things that were happening at the time. This is because they saw the big picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I don't understand what you mean when you say that "no one willing to drop their interpretations long enough to consider that IT IS Happening Now" because that's what most Futurists believe. I think you must be talking about a different kind of "happening" - meaning, Revelation is symbolic of the psycho-spiritual dynamics of each person's life at the moment of their awakening? Is that how you interpret it? Has it always been happening "now?"
    Most futurists are looking to the future at the supposed outward happenings that everyone will witness. That is different Jesus said not to look at the appearance of things.
    The book of Revelation is John relating what he was going through in the process of being awakened.
    We are to have our own revelation which will also be Christ's revelation which he is showing us.
    We begin to see through his eyes. "How will you manifest yourself to us and not to the world", Judas asked him
    His answer was that he and the Father would come and make their abode in us/them.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Ha! That is well put. But it doesn't actually solve the issue. Right-brain wholeness is not "logically incoherent" - it's beyond logic. It can't be comprehended by logic, but that does not mean it is logically incoherent. The problem with the Biblical eschatology is that it appears to be logically incoherent - or we simply don't know how to interpret some of the statements. But any attempt to make it logically coherent ends up being very unconvincing to me, so I just dropped the topic.
    Right Brain is not the answer. Just as left brain is not the answer. You are more of the logical type than I am. You might look at us as two extremities of the poles. But we both have to approach the Middle Pillar to be whole.
    Parable and allegory are good to help us approach this by presenting an unsolveable puzzle.
    But allegory is only the third level of interpretation.
    The fourth level is Mtystical and it is not interpretation at all. It is direct knowing.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    So it looks like you have completely decontextualized the words. The Samaritan woman would not have "seen Christ" if he hadn't been there. It was not "synchronicities" that alerted her to his identity. It was his prophetic speech, followed by his explicit statement. Nothing like that is going on with us here and now. Sure, there are plenty of synchronicities happening, and we are trying to interpret them. But I see no justification to take time statements that were true 2000 years ago, and apply them to our current situation as if they were true now. That would be like saying that it's always the "sixth hour" because that was the time that Jesus met the Samaritan woman.
    His prophetic speech was synchronicity to her. It applied directly to her. And it was the witness of all three that agree on the earth. Blood, Spirit and water.
    I hadn't saw the 6th hour thing but that is probably true. It is the 6th (Tipareth) hour for those who recognise it, like the woman did.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I'm still not clear on your interpretation. Are you saying that it is ALWAYS NOW in the sense that the Messiah is always here now talking to us? Or is it NOW in a special sense indicated by the appearance of synchronicities?
    I would think that, yes, he is always talking to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Those events were just "shadow play?"
    They really happened in fulfilling the old Testament for those who were there at the time. So it is history.
    But Jesus said follow him, so those events in the New Testament were also a guide for us. A guide we do not even realize we are following many times until after the fact. After our eyes begin to open.
    I am beginning to look at life as a shadow play in a way. It seems that at times it's all symbols speaking to us as dreams do.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Right - and that's what destroys such a system in my estimation. If I must contort the Bible until it fits my system it has no real value and gives no real insight. It doesn't actually inform me about anything because I am the one "forming" what the Bible says. I might as well start with the Sunday comics and contort them to fit my system.

    Why not associate them with the price of tea in China too? And last Sunday's comics? You had made some statements of fact as if you had knowledge that "This is Rachel who was Beautiful and 'Well Favored.' This is the woman at Jacob's well who shows a fulfillment of the story of Rachel who met Jacob at the same well. This is us reaching Tipareth." I was merely asking if there was a reason for your assertions. There's no need to get defensive. I was just asking ...
    I am sorry if I came off as defensive. Because of my schedule I am usually rushed as I am posting. As I am today. Again, my apologies.
    As far as Rachel goes, I will keep my eyes open for more connections. Like I said it has a lot to do with the Matthew 17 thread and some numbers that I will have to find again.
    In the mean time you keep your eyes open also and we may find out that I am on to something.

    All the best,
    Bob

    All the best,

    Richard[/QUOTE]
    Harry Potter,.. "Is this all happening in my head, or is it real?"
    Professor Dumbledor,.. "Of course it's all happening in your head. What makes you think that means it isn't real?"

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Time as concerning the coming. We are waiting for something that we see as not being here yet. When, in fact, it is. Just as she did.
    OK - but you are talking about the coming of "Christ Consciousness," right? I'm not sure that's what the book of Revelation is talking about. I'm sure I could impose those ideas atop the text and come up with a reasonable story (for the most part), but I doubt I would then have much confidence my story reflected anything but my own imagination. But then again, I haven't really tried, so maybe I'm speaking out of turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    In context has it's benefit and we should watch that when studying the Bible.
    But, conversely, it is important to allow things that are "out of context" to come into our minds because we don't see the entire context. The big picture. Jesus and Paul took one liners out of the OT (out of context) to illustrate things that were happening at the time. This is because they saw the big picture.
    Yes, the NT certainly does take things "out of context" - and that's one of the primary reasons Jews don't accept the NT or the idea that Jesus really fulfilled the prophecies. And if we follow suit, then we can make up anything we want and the idea of "authoritative Scripture" becomes meaningless. But that's OK with me, since I don't believe in "authoritative Scripture" anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Most futurists are looking to the future at the supposed outward happenings that everyone will witness. That is different Jesus said not to look at the appearance of things.
    The book of Revelation is John relating what he was going through in the process of being awakened.
    We are to have our own revelation which will also be Christ's revelation which he is showing us.
    We begin to see through his eyes. "How will you manifest yourself to us and not to the world", Judas asked him
    His answer was that he and the Father would come and make their abode in us/them.
    I like those ideas, and they may be true. Time will tell, I guess.

    But I wouldn't build too much off that one passage when Jesus said not to look at the "appearance of things." He also said "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" and "when you see all these things" etc. He was clearly talking about external events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Right Brain is not the answer. Just as left brain is not the answer. You are more of the logical type than I am. You might look at us as two extremities of the poles. But we both have to approach the Middle Pillar to be whole.
    Parable and allegory are good to help us approach this by presenting an unsolveable puzzle.
    But allegory is only the third level of interpretation.
    The fourth level is Mtystical and it is not interpretation at all. It is direct knowing.
    The middle pillar may be the balance between the Left and Right brains. Or it could be a third point.

    As for gnosis - direct knowing - that is the goal as well as the path.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    His prophetic speech was synchronicity to her. It applied directly to her. And it was the witness of all three that agree on the earth. Blood, Spirit and water.
    I hadn't saw the 6th hour thing but that is probably true. It is the 6th (Tipareth) hour for those who recognise it, like the woman did.
    OK - that makes sense within your interpretational scheme.

    But I doubt it is what John intended when he wrote it. Of course, that's OK because he might not have known the higher meaning of the text he was being used to create.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    They really happened in fulfilling the old Testament for those who were there at the time. So it is history.
    But Jesus said follow him, so those events in the New Testament were also a guide for us. A guide we do not even realize we are following many times until after the fact. After our eyes begin to open.
    I am beginning to look at life as a shadow play in a way. It seems that at times it's all symbols speaking to us as dreams do.
    Yeah, the "shadow play" idea goes all the way back to Plato's cave. It is a good metaphor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    I am sorry if I came off as defensive. Because of my schedule I am usually rushed as I am posting. As I am today. Again, my apologies.
    As far as Rachel goes, I will keep my eyes open for more connections. Like I said it has a lot to do with the Matthew 17 thread and some numbers that I will have to find again.
    In the mean time you keep your eyes open also and we may find out that I am on to something.
    No worries. It's all good!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #198
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    The Wiki article on Daliís Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bee Around a Pomegranate a Second Before Awakening says the following:

    The smaller pomegranate floating between two droplets of water may symbolize Venus, especially because of the heart-shaped shadow it casts.[6] It may also be used as a Christian symbol of fertility and resurrection.[7] This female symbolism may contrast with the phallic symbolism of the threatening creatures.[6]

    I hope not to offend anyone on this forum. As my training is in literary and artistic interpretation and criticism and because I see clear links between Daliís subject matter, the Dumbo movie, and Richardís dream, I have to return to the sexual symbols observed by many commentators in Daliís painting.

    The nude woman reclines, slightly suspended above a rock at the edge of a large body of water:



    Daliís 1937 painting Sleep depicts a similar theme in which a heavy head is suspended by supporting crutches while it sleeps:



    Beyond the sleeping head is a crutch that extends heavenward. Its position, shape, and angle parallel one of the front legs of the elephant in the Dream painting. Clearly, the theme of support is common to both works.

    The SMK connection is established in both paintings, and the SMK/PYL connection is established in the Dream painting.

    However, Dali is obviously exploring sexual themes in the Dream painting, which also correspond to SMK. Michael Munk says that the SMK is not only something which supports, but is also feminine, associating it with the creation of Eve and resulting sexual temptation.

    If we take the numeric weight of 44=MD or DM and look strictly at the letters and what they symbolize, we have 'water door.' The woman in the Dream painting (completed in 1944) is on the threshold of an expanse of water, and she herself is a symbol of fertility and ultimately child-bearing and birth, the process in which water literally exits the female body through the threshold of the genitalia. In the womb, this water supports a newly begotten creation.

    If you factor in Ezekiel 44 with the clothing requirements given to the remnant Levites for entering and exiting the Most Holy Place and the Holy Place and for ministering to those in the Outer Court, you have a picture of the priestsí primary function as foretold by Leah in Gen. 29:34:

    Now this time will my husband be joined (LVH) unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.

    The Levitical priests became the vav that joined Israel in the Outer Court to God in the Most Holy Place. Whether we see this in sexual terms really doesnít matter. The physical union of a man and woman is simply a symbol of the kind of relationship God wants with us. Through Jesus, we have a better high priest and thus a better vav than the Levitical priesthood could be for Israel or Levi could be for his mother.

    How many times have we heard conservative Christian men talk like giddy school girls about having a relationship with Christ, being in love with him, being part of his Bride, and part of his body? Though the sexual relationship between a man and woman isnít necessarily sufficient for describing the nature of the churchís relationship with Christ, it is helpful if one can get past what may feel like taboos. Likewise, there is more to all this than what we experience here in the physical plane as human beings divided from one another by sex, as well as so many other things. We are ultimately talking about a spiritual process whereby individuals begin to merge with Christ so they might eventually merge with one another so they might corporately merge again with Christ. How can we abide in him as he abides in us and as he abides in the Father and the Father in him? We should realize sexual imagery is not sufficient for seeing the full picture. However, it does help for getting some perspective on how Christ lives in and through us and on how the church is to be joined to him.

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    OK - but you are talking about the coming of "Christ Consciousness," right? I'm not sure that's what the book of Revelation is talking about. I'm sure I could impose those ideas atop the text and come up with a reasonable story (for the most part), but I doubt I would then have much confidence my story reflected anything but my own imagination. But then again, I haven't really tried, so maybe I'm speaking out of turn.
    I look for matching patterns. Take away the symbology and what are you left with? A pattern. See that you build it after the pattern showed thee on the mount.
    John starts out the book saying that it is the revelation of Jesus Christ. His revelation which he gave to John. (Seeing through his eyes.) and John has been given this revelation to give to us.

    Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    Jesus said that everything he was speaking did not come from him. It came from the Father. We are supposed to come to that same realization.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Yes, the NT certainly does take things "out of context" - and that's one of the primary reasons Jews don't accept the NT or the idea that Jesus really fulfilled the prophecies. And if we follow suit, then we can make up anything we want and the idea of "authoritative Scripture" becomes meaningless. But that's OK with me, since I don't believe in "authoritative Scripture" anyway.
    We cannot make up anything we want if our prerequisite for accepting elements into our doctrine/interpretation require the patterns to match.
    We keep things in mind and not reject them outright.
    Ge 37:5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
    Ge 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
    Ge 37:11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

    Joseph's brothers (aspects of ourselves) hated him right off.
    Jacob's first inclination was to rebuke him but then, maybe because he had had some pretty weird dreams himself, he obsreved the saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I like those ideas, and they may be true. Time will tell, I guess.

    But I wouldn't build too much off that one passage when Jesus said not to look at the "appearance of things." He also said "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" and "when you see all these things" etc. He was clearly talking about external events.
    Yes, and external events will show the same patterns. There is a tree in every world. There are four worlds.
    Paul said the invisible thing from the creation of the world are clearly seen by the things that are manifest.
    But if we do not recognise the patterns, we will not recognise those invisible things that are being shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post

    The middle pillar may be the balance between the Left and Right brains. Or it could be a third point.

    As for gnosis - direct knowing - that is the goal as well as the path.
    The Mystic path is the Middle Pillar, as opposed to the Way of the Magician which is to access each Path and Sephirah one at a time going up the tree. (Hence the 33 degrees of Masonry and similar schools of thought.)The problem with that method is imbalance. (Mental and emotional.)
    If you reach a place of enlightenment on the middle pillar the knowledge of the side pillars and lower Sephiroth are also gained.
    This is Jesus' "I am the way." And this is the reason the sephirah, Tipareth has connecting paths to all the Sephiroth directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post

    Originally Posted by Bob May
    His prophetic speech was synchronicity to her. It applied directly to her. And it was the witness of all three that agree on the earth. Blood, Spirit and water.
    I hadn't saw the 6th hour thing but that is probably true. It is the 6th (Tipareth) hour for those who recognise it, like the woman did.

    OK - that makes sense within your interpretational scheme.

    But I doubt it is what John intended when he wrote it. Of course, that's OK because he might not have known the higher meaning of the text he was being used to create.
    It doesn't matter what John intended, you are right. That thought you just spoke is a big part of this Christ Consciousness. It is the geat day, the last day of the feast of Tabernacles. Where water flows out of our bellys.
    Jesus was tempted by Satan and Satan said if you be the son of God turn the stones into bread. This is turning stones into bread. Seeing the Scripture as something that we feed on spiritually. House of Bread, where Rachel was buried and cries out from the ground that no other spiritual thought (male children of Israel) are left. Only Jesus survived.
    Caiaphas said that it was better for one man to die and that a whole people be saved. His intentions were not honorable but the words were correct. He was prophecying.
    Joseph at the reunion of the Brothers said they meant it for evil but God meant it for good. He was seeing the big picture which we also are supposed to see.
    Satan's head only reaches to Tipareth, because he has served his purpose once we have begun to see these things.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Yeah, the "shadow play" idea goes all the way back to Plato's cave. It is a good metaphor.
    All the world is a stage and we are but players.

    All the best,
    Bob
    Harry Potter,.. "Is this all happening in my head, or is it real?"
    Professor Dumbledor,.. "Of course it's all happening in your head. What makes you think that means it isn't real?"

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by lenvande View Post
    The Wiki article on Daliís Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bee Around a Pomegranate a Second Before Awakening says the following:

    The smaller pomegranate floating between two droplets of water may symbolize Venus, especially because of the heart-shaped shadow it casts.[6] It may also be used as a Christian symbol of fertility and resurrection.[7] This female symbolism may contrast with the phallic symbolism of the threatening creatures.[6]
    The pomegranete symbol is used in the Qabala and Tarot also.

    A Garden of Pomegranates is a 160 page book, written by Israel Regardie in 1931. The first edition was published in 1932. The book was printed four times, with a second edition being published in 1970 by Llewellyn Publications. The title pays homage to Moses ben Jacob Cordovero's "Pardes Rimonim," or "Pomegranate Orchard."

    A third edition was printed in 1999, by Llewellyn Publications This edition includes two introductions by Regardie, and one from Chic and Sandra Tabatha Cicero. The third edition is also furnished with a series of annotations done by the Ciceros, and an additional 320 page qabalistic textbook, titled Skrying On The Tree of Life.

    Regardie dedicates the book to Aleister Crowley and identifies the text as theoretical introduction to the foundation of the magical work of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.



    The High Priestess card which is on the 13th Path (unity) from Tipareth to Kether has as a veil behind the woman a tree of life with Pomegranetes as Sephiroth.


    Quote Originally Posted by lenvande View Post
    The SMK connection is established in both paintings, and the SMK/PYL connection is established in the Dream painting.

    However, Dali is obviously exploring sexual themes in the Dream painting, which also correspond to SMK. Michael Munk says that the SMK is not only something which supports, but is also feminine, associating it with the creation of Eve and resulting sexual temptation.

    If we take the numeric weight of 44=MD or DM and look strictly at the letters and what they symbolize, we have 'water door.' The woman in the Dream painting (completed in 1944) is on the threshold of an expanse of water, and she herself is a symbol of fertility and ultimately child-bearing and birth, the process in which water literally exits the female body through the threshold of the genitalia. In the womb, this water supports a newly begotten creation.

    If you factor in Ezekiel 44 with the clothing requirements given to the remnant Levites for entering and exiting the Most Holy Place and the Holy Place and for ministering to those in the Outer Court, you have a picture of the priestsí primary function as foretold by Leah in Gen. 29:34:

    Now this time will my husband be joined (LVH) unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.

    The Levitical priests became the vav that joined Israel in the Outer Court to God in the Most Holy Place. Whether we see this in sexual terms really doesnít matter. The physical union of a man and woman is simply a symbol of the kind of relationship God wants with us. Through Jesus, we have a better high priest and thus a better vav than the Levitical priesthood could be for Israel or Levi could be for his mother.

    How many times have we heard conservative Christian men talk like giddy school girls about having a relationship with Christ, being in love with him, being part of his Bride, and part of his body? Though the sexual relationship between a man and woman isnít necessarily sufficient for describing the nature of the churchís relationship with Christ, it is helpful if one can get past what may feel like taboos. Likewise, there is more to all this than what we experience here in the physical plane as human beings divided from one another by sex, as well as so many other things. We are ultimately talking about a spiritual process whereby individuals begin to merge with Christ so they might eventually merge with one another so they might corporately merge again with Christ. How can we abide in him as he abides in us and as he abides in the Father and the Father in him? We should realize sexual imagery is not sufficient for seeing the full picture. However, it does help for getting some perspective on how Christ lives in and through us and on how the church is to be joined to him.
    The letter Samech is also on the middle pillar on the path from Yesod to Tipareth. Yesod is associated with the sexual organs. And the Samech is the Serpent biting it's own tail relating to a higher use of sexual energy.

    One thing that I hadn't noticed until last night. The 9 of Yesod turns upside down to form the 6 of Tipareth.
    The 9 could be looked at as the male genitals "at ease" and the 6 could be looked at as if "at attention", so to speak. (Or as being used for either lower passions or higher aspirations.)
    Our energies are directed by our thoughts and emotions. That which connects us Vav, (nail) Levi, (Joining, Love) can connect us to whatever it is we want to be joined to.
    The sex energy can help us join to the highest of heights or lowest of lows.
    It is just energy, like Nuclear energy. We can power our houses with it or destroy cities with it.

    Bob
    Last edited by Bob May; 12-23-2011 at 09:02 AM.
    Harry Potter,.. "Is this all happening in my head, or is it real?"
    Professor Dumbledor,.. "Of course it's all happening in your head. What makes you think that means it isn't real?"

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