Looking for Dumbo

[debz]

Richard....I LOVE this story! Thanks for sharing it with us!

More things to ponder: Jesus didn’t come to start the religion of Christianity. I believe that most of what is thought to be Christianity and practiced as Christianity is really far off from what Jesus and the early apostles taught—He wanted to set people free from religious bondage, not bring them into it. Jesus taught primarily about the kingdom (realm of freedom, righteousness, peace and joy found IN the Holy Spirit (the Divine Presence). And, the kingdom doesn’t consist of words, but of power—the supernatural. Jesus didn’t say, it is better that I go away, because then a book can be written about Me to lead you into all truth—He said it was better because then the Holy Spirit could be sent, Who would lead us into all Truth. This doesn’t mean I discount the Bible at all, it’s just that many Christians seem to think the trinity is Father, Son and Holy Bible, and really do not have a relationship with the Holy Spirit—they all believe they do, of course, but much of what they describe as the Holy Spirit leading them is just their conscience—which is still good to follow, but it is not what is meant by being led by the Holy Spirit. What you describe in this story is one aspect of being led by the Holy Spirit—He speaks through dreams, visions, mysteries, etc.

It is the good news of the KINGDOM that Jesus and the early apostles taught—most Christians have reduced that to the gospel of salvation—I believe they are profoundly different (salvation is just one part of it). But it is this gospel of the KINGDOM that is supposed to be a testimony to all the earth before 'the end' can come (Mt 24:14). This is a 'realm' – of righteousness, perfection, and salvation (wholeness, complete health in body, mind and spirit) – this is God’s 'reign' or His 'Kingdom.' This is what Jesus came preaching: 'change your way of thinking, because now this realm is available' (aka, 'repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand’).

It is the realm described 'in the beginning': In the beginning it was 'on earth, as it is in heaven' (why Jesus taught to pray this) – there was a dual-dimension where heaven & earth connected—the spiritual was seen as clearly as the natural. It is the reason, I believe, that we have Gen 1 creation (spiritual) and Gen 2 creation (natural). God’s Presence was with man (Adam/Eve as one), they lived in His Presence (Life). They 'walked with God' in complete freedom: spiritually, emotionally, physically (naked & unashamed). They lived in The LIFE and were supposed to be partaking of the 'Tree of Life.' LIFE was good. This was lost when they disobeyed and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil—now 'death' entered the world and they were cut off from the Tree of Life. Where once they had protection in their dominion over the earth, in partnership with God, now that control and dominion was transferred to the evil one—the whole world became under the control of the evil one at this point (1 Jn 5:19).

God delegated the dominion/authority over earth to humans while He retained the reign in the heavens:

'The heavens — the heavens [are] Jehovah's, And the earth He hath given to sons of men,' Ps 115:16 YLT

God delegated the reign to humans, but then humans gave the dominion to the evil one. Because of this, He cannot act now without their cooperation—and also because of this, the evil one can give authority to those who belong to him (as he tried to do when tempting Jesus). We see from 'the fall' forward pictures and types of those who seek His Righteousness (e.g. Abel bringing an acceptable offering), vs. those who are still 'religious'—still 'worshipping God,' but doing it in the strength of their flesh (e.g. Cain, who 'worked the soil' and brought an offering from his own 'strength'—Cain 'belonged to the evil one' 1 Jn 3:12). These brothers are the first picture of the age-old battle of those who are 'religious' (still doing the 'right and good things' based on their 'knowledge' of 'good and evil'—still eating from that tree…), and those who seek His Righteousness, His Life, His Presence—the realm of the Kingdom.

[Rose]

Richard....I LOVE this story! Thanks for sharing it with us!

More things to ponder: Jesus didn’t come to start the religion of Christianity. I believe that most of what is thought to be Christianity and practiced as Christianity is really far off from what Jesus and the early apostles taught—He wanted to set people free from religious bondage, not bring them into it. Jesus taught primarily about the kingdom (realm of freedom, righteousness, peace and joy found IN the Holy Spirit (the Divine Presence). And, the kingdom doesn’t consist of words, but of power—the supernatural. Jesus didn’t say, it is better that I go away, because then a book can be written about Me to lead you into all truth—He said it was better because then the Holy Spirit could be sent, Who would lead us into all Truth.

Hi Debz

I think you are absolutely right! The message that Jesus taught was freedom...freedom from the bondage of Old Covenant Law that oppressed its followers and freedom from the inequalities the law imposed upon women and those of other beliefs (Gentiles). It is too bad that the early church fathers who started the Christian faith chose to turn his teachings into a religion of rules, and laws, much like the one they were freed from.

This doesn’t mean I discount the Bible at all, it’s just that many Christians seem to think the trinity is Father, Son and Holy Bible, and really do not have a relationship with the Holy Spirit—they all believe they do, of course, but much of what they describe as the Holy Spirit leading them is just their conscience—which is still good to follow, but it is not what is meant by being led by the Holy Spirit. What you describe in this story is one aspect of being led by the Holy Spirit—He speaks through dreams, visions, mysteries, etc.

Using myself as an example I would say that ALL of what people call the leading of the Holy Spirit is just their own conscience. Before I became a Christian, and through all the years when I was a Christian believer and was filled with the Holy Spirit, the inner voice I followed remained the same...it was always my conscience and my intuition that guided me...and even now nothing has changed.

All the best,
Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard....I LOVE this story! Thanks for sharing it with us!

Hey there Deb,

Thanks for the encouraging words! We should all "come out" a little more and check the weather ... it might not be as stormy as people think!

More things to ponder: Jesus didn’t come to start the religion of Christianity. I believe that most of what is thought to be Christianity and practiced as Christianity is really far off from what Jesus and the early apostles taught—He wanted to set people free from religious bondage, not bring them into it. Jesus taught primarily about the kingdom (realm of freedom, righteousness, peace and joy found IN the Holy Spirit (the Divine Presence). And, the kingdom doesn’t consist of words, but of power—the supernatural. Jesus didn’t say, it is better that I go away, because then a book can be written about Me to lead you into all truth—He said it was better because then the Holy Spirit could be sent, Who would lead us into all Truth. This doesn’t mean I discount the Bible at all, it’s just that many Christians seem to think the trinity is Father, Son and Holy Bible, and really do not have a relationship with the Holy Spirit—they all believe they do, of course, but much of what they describe as the Holy Spirit leading them is just their conscience—which is still good to follow, but it is not what is meant by being led by the Holy Spirit. What you describe in this story is one aspect of being led by the Holy Spirit—He speaks through dreams, visions, mysteries, etc.

Very well stated! The difference between words and power reminds me of the left (verbal/abstract) and right (visual/intuitive) hemispheres of the brain. We need both to function as humans, but there has been a HUGE imbalance towards the left hemisphere for the last few thousand years, and it is largely due to the introduction of alphabetic reading according to Leonard Shlain in his The Alphabet versus the Goddess. Paul recognized this also when he said that "the letter killeth but the spirit giveth life." The institutions aer defined by the DOGMA they teach. And many Christians believe that the religion is defined by the CREEDS = WORDS that people must agree to regardless of what their hearts might be telling them.

Perhaps the greatest irony is the Doctrine of the Trinity. Ask any common Christian what it really means and you will probably find that they have no idea at all. Yet it is taken as the sin qua non the defines an authentic Christian. Therefore, the fundamental requirement to be a Christian is, for most people, to assert belief in something they don't even understand, let alone beleive! In other words, it looks like the entrance test for institutional Christianity is a willingness to assert absolute blind faith in an incomprehensible doctrine. What does that tell about the kind of "mind" required to be a member of institutional Christianity?

It is the good news of the KINGDOM that Jesus and the early apostles taught—most Christians have reduced that to the gospel of salvation—I believe they are profoundly different (salvation is just one part of it). But it is this gospel of the KINGDOM that is supposed to be a testimony to all the earth before 'the end' can come (Mt 24:14). This is a 'realm' – of righteousness, perfection, and salvation (wholeness, complete health in body, mind and spirit) – this is God’s 'reign' or His 'Kingdom.' This is what Jesus came preaching: 'change your way of thinking, because now this realm is available' (aka, 'repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand’).

I don't experience any "freedom" like that at all when I think of Christianity. On the contrary, it feels much more like being imprisoned in a world of ideas imposed upon me by ghosts of long dead dogamatists. Why should we believe any of it? Yes, there are powerful symbols in Christianity, but we need to use our minds and make our own judgments about what they mean. The poeple with the big buildings who have made a business/cult out of religion have no hold on my soul at all.

BTW - it seems to me that the "end" in Matt 24 happened in 70 AD. Jesus made it as plain as plain can be. He began his discourse by predicting the destruction of the Temple, and said it would all come down upon "this generation" - that is, the first century generation that heard him speak. And this is exactly what happened.

It is the realm described 'in the beginning': In the beginning it was 'on earth, as it is in heaven' (why Jesus taught to pray this) – there was a dual-dimension where heaven & earth connected—the spiritual was seen as clearly as the natural. It is the reason, I believe, that we have Gen 1 creation (spiritual) and Gen 2 creation (natural). God’s Presence was with man (Adam/Eve as one), they lived in His Presence (Life). They 'walked with God' in complete freedom: spiritually, emotionally, physically (naked & unashamed). They lived in The LIFE and were supposed to be partaking of the 'Tree of Life.' LIFE was good. This was lost when they disobeyed and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil—now 'death' entered the world and they were cut off from the Tree of Life. Where once they had protection in their dominion over the earth, in partnership with God, now that control and dominion was transferred to the evil one—the whole world became under the control of the evil one at this point (1 Jn 5:19).

The gnostics have a saying "as above, so below" that echoes "on earth as it is in heaven."

I'm not so sure there is a real distinction between "spiritual" and "natural." It may just be a difference of perspective.

God set up the garden with the inent for Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit. If it was the divine intent it could not bad - it just looks bad from our current perspective. Just like a child feels the mother is being cruel for denying it her breast when it is time to wean. Could be what this whole experience on planet earth is really all about. We are being "weaned" off God's breast so we can exist individually. Many people note profound links to the psychological process of individuation in the Genesis myth.

In general, I think you are "looking backwards" at an imaginary world that never existed. It's like folks who imagine we have fallen from some "Golden age" in the past. The symbols in the myth of the Garden may well be telling us a profound truth about our origin, but it would be an error in my estimation if we were to literalize it and think there really was an Adam and Eve that really "walked" with God and really "ate" some fruit. If the myth means anything, it must be symbolic. This is confirmed by everything else in Genesis 1-3 that verily screams MYTHOLOGY! Don't get me wrong - myth does not mean false. Jesus taught in parables that were not literally true. Same thing here.

God delegated the dominion/authority over earth to humans while He retained the reign in the heavens:

'The heavens — the heavens [are] Jehovah's, And the earth He hath given to sons of men,' Ps 115:16 YLT

God delegated the reign to humans, but then humans gave the dominion to the evil one. Because of this, He cannot act now without their cooperation—and also because of this, the evil one can give authority to those who belong to him (as he tried to do when tempting Jesus). We see from 'the fall' forward pictures and types of those who seek His Righteousness (e.g. Abel bringing an acceptable offering), vs. those who are still 'religious'—still 'worshipping God,' but doing it in the strength of their flesh (e.g. Cain, who 'worked the soil' and brought an offering from his own 'strength'—Cain 'belonged to the evil one' 1 Jn 3:12). These brothers are the first picture of the age-old battle of those who are 'religious' (still doing the 'right and good things' based on their 'knowledge' of 'good and evil'—still eating from that tree…), and those who seek His Righteousness, His Life, His Presence—the realm of the Kingdom.

Well, I can echo your sentiment between freedom and individuality vs. religion. But I don't think I would express it quite the same way. You ideas seem to be based on the "dominator model" that I see as archaic and worthy of rejection. Why is Christianity so obsessed with "dominion" and hence DOMINATION over others? It seems profoundly sexist to me. Domination over nature is a symbol of domination over women and that is the symbol (and symptom) of the linear, verbal, dogmatic, neophobic left brain dominating over the intuitive, holisticic, open-minded, neophilic right brain. And that is the split that severs the link between heaven and earth (not unlike the corpus callosum).

Well now, there sure is a lot to discuss! Thanks for sharing,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Using myself as an example I would say that ALL of what people call the leading of the Holy Spirit is just their own conscience. Before I became a Christian, and through all the years when I was a Christian believer and was filled with the Holy Spirit, the inner voice I followed remained the same...it was always my conscience and my intuition that guided me...and even now nothing has changed.

I must agree. People who believe that they are being led by God's Spirit are, in fact, being led by their own intutition. There is no way to tell the difference. Indeed, even if the "Spirit of God" were leading a person, how is that leadership effected? The answer is obvious - the vast majority of such folks don't actually hear a voice or see a vision. They claim that they get a "conviction" in their spirit that they interpret as the "leading" of God's Spirit.

[debz]

BTW - it seems to me that the "end" in Matt 24 happened in 70 AD. Jesus made it as plain as plain can be. He began his discourse by predicting the destruction of the Temple, and said it would all come down upon "this generation" - that is, the first century generation that heard him speak. And this is exactly what happened.

IMO, and from the pictures I've seen of the ruins of the temple, there are still some "stones left on others," and He said that everystone would be thrown down. Also, that all these things would happen within one generation, but I don't believe it meant within that generation. I know you have other threads on eschatology, so I won't get into it more here. However, since this is a "synchronicity" thread, if you read the rest of what I wrote on the "555" synchronicity, it could reveal to you more of how I see things. For example, you said it appears as if I am "looking backward," but to me, I am looking forward to a restoration of this realm--a restoration of the heaven & earth connection.

As for the dominion thing: I see what you're saying, and I also do not agree with that dominionism theory as it is understood by many. It is not for men to have dominion over other men--and especially not for men to have dominion over women (see my posts in Male Bias of the Bible). It is being a representative of the kingdom, bringing the kingdom's "rule" and "reign" in order to make things better on earth, not worse.

(I do not know how to quote multiple sentences from your original...that's why only quoted that one phrase...is there a tutorial somewhere? LOL)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

IMO, and from the pictures I've seen of the ruins of the temple, there are still some "stones left on others," and He said that everystone would be thrown down. Also, that all these things would happen within one generation, but I don't believe it meant within that generation. I know you have other threads on eschatology, so I won't get into it more here. However, since this is a "synchronicity" thread, if you read the rest of what I wrote on the "555" synchronicity, it could reveal to you more of how I see things. For example, you said it appears as if I am "looking backward," but to me, I am looking forward to a restoration of this realm--a restoration of the heaven & earth connection.

As for the dominion thing: I see what you're saying, and I also do not agree with that dominionism theory as it is understood by many. It is not for men to have dominion over other men--and especially not for men to have dominion over women (see my posts in Male Bias of the Bible). It is being a representative of the kingdom, bringing the kingdom's "rule" and "reign" in order to make things better on earth, not worse.

(I do not know how to quote multiple sentences from your original...that's why only quoted that one phrase...is there a tutorial somewhere? LOL)

This is definitely not the thread in which I would want to pursue eschatology. But let me say one thing - if Jesus really meant ALL the stones in the fashion suggest, then the prophecy is very misleading because Jesus began by predicting the destruction of the Temple and we know that happened in 70 AD when all the stones of the Temple were indeed thrown down. You interpretation is a false literalism that obscures the plain and obvious meaning of the text. Jesus was talking about the destruction of the Temple, not the configuration of the stones in the retaining wall! If your interpretation were correct, it would mean that Jesus made a prediction that only "looks like" it was fulfilled, but really wasn't fulfilled at all. That obliterates the meaning of the entire Olivet Discourse which was predicated on his assertion that the Temple would be destroyed during the lifetime of the generation that heard him. And worse, it destroys the historical witness to the fulfillment of his prophecy in 70 AD which many Christians have seen as the greatest single proof of the divine inspiration of the Christian religion. If you want to pursue this, please read this post and reply in that thread.

As for who to work with the quotes, I wrote up something in a thread called How to quote posts in replies. Take a look at that and let me know if it helps. And don't be shy! If you have a question, I can assure you that ten others will have the same question, so it will help everyone if you ask.

[debz]

As I continued my analysis, I began to notice subtle associations with other dreams I had recorded. The first big night of dreams happened on November 4^th when I dreamed that my boss, Sheri, 'had a keyboard with over 400 sounds sampled.' This naturally linked to the numerical value of Tav (400) and the idea of a 'key' board gave me a sense of a the 22 letters as 'keys' to this spiritual reality I was discovering. I also felt there was a connection with a dream that I had on November 16:

I am in a music store. There is a blind woman at the bottom of a one mile long staircase. She’s wearing a white robe. She said it took her over a year to climb out. She said the grace of God saved her. I climbed with her, reiterating her steps. I was then supposed to sit and meditate at the top of the stairs.

I noted that one mile equals 5,280 feet, or ten times my dream number. I had a very strong intuition that these dreams were connected, so I began to pay even closer attention each night. And then on December 1 I had this very lucid dream (verbatim from my dream journal):[INDENT]A master wants to play me a game of pool. I feel I know nothing. The master was very eager to play and wanted to bet large sums. He said, 'OK, just 2 or 3 bucks.' He showed me a book where a beginner won the Crown in 15 moves.

Hi Richard...if you can get past my differing eschatological view, and whatever other beliefs I hold that are different from yours, LOL, I think you will find a LOT of insight from my 555 doc related to these two dreams. There is much in there on the number 15 -- which I personally see as directly correlating with the statement "He showed me a book where a beginner wone the Crown in 15 moves" -- and about the stairs...

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard...if you can get past my differing eschatological view, and whatever other beliefs I hold that are different from yours, LOL, I think you will find a LOT of insight from my 555 doc related to these two dreams. There is much in there on the number 15 -- which I personally see as directly correlating with the statement "He showed me a book where a beginner wone the Crown in 15 moves" -- and about the stairs...

I'd love to explore any line of thought you feel is significant. I never really got clear about the number 15 in my analysis of the dream. I can't say I really know what it means like the other numbers 12, 44, 400, 528 that appeared in those dreams.

As for eschatology ~ maybe we'll both have to get past our differences.

[debz]

I'd love to explore any line of thought you feel is significant. I never really got clear about the number 15 in my analysis of the dream. I can't say I really know what it means like the other numbers 12, 44, 400, 528 that appeared in those dreams.

As for eschatology ~ maybe we'll both have to get past our differences.

LOL...I hear you. What I meant was that I hoped you wouldn't "throw the baby out with the bath water" simply because of the issues we do disagree on. The number 15 is deeply entrenched with the Feast of Tabernacles, which I believe is the only feast that has never yet been completely fulfilled. There were 15 steps in the temple that "connected" the court of women with the court of men (aka Court of Israel). Here's a quote from MSS:

"The fifteen steps hold even more revelation related to the time of Tabernacles. On each of the eight days of the Feast, the Levites stood upon these steps and sang the 15 Psalms of Ascent, Ps. 120-134 (also note: 15 steps x 8 days=120—again, this is not a coincidence!). These 15 Psalms have also been described as 'Pilgrim Songs,' because the Israelites sang them when they 'went up' to Jerusalem to keep the Feast. Others have said they were sung by the returning exiles when they 'went up' to Jerusalem from Babylon. Both of these pilgrimages are symbolic for us—we are journeying out of Babylon, meaning confusion (religious, political, and economical): 'come out of her My people…' (Rev. 18:4), and we are journeying to the 'New Jerusalem' (the 'Most Holy Place' of His Presence). These are Songs for pilgrims not content with status quo religion or being part of a 'system' of mere rules that put limits on the Spirit."

Sacred name of Jah is Yod (10) + Heh (5), masculine + feminine.

Psalms of Ascent are separated into three sections of 5 Psalms each = 5+5+5 (I've been seeing the synchronicity of "555" every day for over 20 years, which is what led me into this to begin with...)

Most all of the measurements of the ark were multiples of 15 ("as it was in the day of Noah...").

Gematria 555: "and Enoch walked," power (dunamis), "free" (as in, "the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother").

This is just a small taste...there is WAY more than the tidbits I am presenting here....and if anyone else wants to read about this, PM me your email address and I will send you a copy.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

LOL...I hear you. What I meant was that I hoped you wouldn't "throw the baby out with the bath water" simply because of the issues we do disagree on. The number 15 is deeply entrenched with the Feast of Tabernacles, which I believe is the only feast that has never yet been completely fulfilled. There were 15 steps in the temple that "connected" the court of women with the court of men (aka Court of Israel). Here's a quote from MSS:

"The fifteen steps hold even more revelation related to the time of Tabernacles. On each of the eight days of the Feast, the Levites stood upon these steps and sang the 15 Psalms of Ascent, Ps. 120-134 (also note: 15 steps x 8 days=120—again, this is not a coincidence!). These 15 Psalms have also been described as 'Pilgrim Songs,' because the Israelites sang them when they 'went up' to Jerusalem to keep the Feast. Others have said they were sung by the returning exiles when they 'went up' to Jerusalem from Babylon. Both of these pilgrimages are symbolic for us—we are journeying out of Babylon, meaning confusion (religious, political, and economical): 'come out of her My people…' (Rev. 18:4), and we are journeying to the 'New Jerusalem' (the 'Most Holy Place' of His Presence). These are Songs for pilgrims not content with status quo religion or being part of a 'system' of mere rules that put limits on the Spirit."

Sacred name of Jah is Yod (10) + Heh (5), masculine + feminine.

Psalms of Ascent are separated into three sections of 5 Psalms each = 5+5+5 (I've been seeing the synchronicity of "555" every day for over 20 years, which is what led me into this to begin with...)

Most all of the measurements of the ark were multiples of 15 ("as it was in the day of Noah...").

Gematria 555: "and Enoch walked," power (dunamis), "free" (as in, "the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother").

This is just a small taste...there is WAY more than the tidbits I am presenting here....and if anyone else wants to read about this, PM me your email address and I will send you a copy.

Where did you get the information about the 15 steps?

It is interesting that Tri(15) = 120 = SMK (Samek) = Name of 15th letter [where Tri(n) denotes the nth triangular number].

And the 15 Psalms of ascent begin at Psalm 120 = Samek = Tri(15).

There are strong links here.