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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Hi RC,

    Ge 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
    Ge 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
    Ge 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
    Ge 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
    Ge 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed

    Ge 35:9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.
    Ge 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel

    Ge 45:26 And told him, saying, Joseph is yet alive, and he is governor over all the land of Egypt. And Jacob's heart fainted, for he believed them not.
    Ge 45:27 And they told him all the words of Joseph, which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived: Ge 45:28 And Israel said, It is enough; Joseph my son is yet alive: I will go and see him before I die.
    Interesting but to be accurate one needs to look at all the occurrences of Jacob and Israel such as the Prophecies of Isaiah. I like the last one especially. It shows the 2 natures. But even his first name was prophetic since he was holding Esau's heel during birth.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Hi RC,

    Ge 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
    Ge 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
    Ge 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
    Ge 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
    Ge 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed

    Ge 35:9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.
    Ge 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel

    Ge 45:26 And told him, saying, Joseph is yet alive, and he is governor over all the land of Egypt. And Jacob's heart fainted, for he believed them not.
    Ge 45:27 And they told him all the words of Joseph, which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived: Ge 45:28 And Israel said, It is enough; Joseph my son is yet alive: I will go and see him before I die.
    Bob,

    Sorry for not replying sooner. I missed this post earlier. Thanks for the reply and explanation.
    Facing the East,
    Frater Rosae Crucis



    "It is only by the exercise of Reason, that man can discover God."
    ~ Thomas Paine

  3. #33
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    History of the New Testament

    The link below is to 'The Great Courses' website. This is an excellent website for CDs/DVDs on religion, art, science, literature, etc...it's just a great site...period! The link is specifically to the Bart Ehrman series on a comprehensive overview of the history of the New Testament canon. I own the DVD collection, and let me tell you...one can learn a lot from this man. Enjoy!



    http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/c...l.aspx?cid=656
    Facing the East,
    Frater Rosae Crucis



    "It is only by the exercise of Reason, that man can discover God."
    ~ Thomas Paine

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Interesting but to be accurate one needs to look at all the occurrences of Jacob and Israel such as the Prophecies of Isaiah. I like the last one especially. It shows the 2 natures. But even his first name was prophetic since he was holding Esau's heel during birth.
    Hi RC,
    Yes, Esau and Jacob are brothers. Esau is the Carnal side of us. Jacob does supplant or take his place and should. He sold his birthright for a mess of pottage.

    So Jacob "seeking after God" is a cut above the masses. He is seeking God rather than basing his life on eating, drinking, and screwing just to make a new generation to do the same things all over again.
    And in his seeking he has experiences that go way beyond his ability to comprehend. This is Israel.

    This is all about US.
    When we have true Spiritual experiences we should hold onto them as long as possible and when Jacob inevitably takes over again (Now supplanting or "taking the place of" Israel) we set up a stone in consciousness, a rememberance of these greater than normal states of consciousness.
    These are signposts along our path that remind us that "Normal Consciousness" is not the Reality we are seeking after.
    And we will inevitably have more such experiences.

    Jacob laid his head down on stones (plural)/revelations. Then he saw the ladder and lifted up the "Stone" (singular) and set it up as a stone of rememberance. The little revelations become the one Revelation.

    There are more to come and we know that because we have already been experiencing them.
    It is our birthright, and our blessing.

    Bob
    Harry Potter,.. "Is this all happening in my head, or is it real?"
    Professor Dumbledor,.. "Of course it's all happening in your head. What makes you think that means it isn't real?"

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Hi RC,
    Yes, Esau and Jacob are brothers. Esau is the Carnal side of us. Jacob does supplant or take his place and should. He sold his birthright for a mess of pottage.

    So Jacob "seeking after God" is a cut above the masses. He is seeking God rather than basing his life on eating, drinking, and screwing just to make a new generation to do the same things all over again.
    And in his seeking he has experiences that go way beyond his ability to comprehend. This is Israel.

    This is all about US.
    When we have true Spiritual experiences we should hold onto them as long as possible and when Jacob inevitably takes over again (Now supplanting or "taking the place of" Israel) we set up a stone in consciousness, a rememberance of these greater than normal states of consciousness.
    These are signposts along our path that remind us that "Normal Consciousness" is not the Reality we are seeking after.
    And we will inevitably have more such experiences.

    Jacob laid his head down on stones (plural)/revelations. Then he saw the ladder and lifted up the "Stone" (singular) and set it up as a stone of rememberance. The little revelations become the one Revelation.

    There are more to come and we know that because we have already been experiencing them.
    It is our birthright, and our blessing.

    Bob
    I like how you view the Scriptures with more of a Spiritual perspective. You don't find that very often. Have you or anyone else reading this thread ever pondered the passage about Jacob using the striped and speckled rods placed in the watering trough and having the cattle and sheep (I think it was both types of animals) stare at the rods during sex to make them have striped and speckled offspring? (Genesis 30:26-43) If so, what is everyone's take on that?
    Facing the East,
    Frater Rosae Crucis



    "It is only by the exercise of Reason, that man can discover God."
    ~ Thomas Paine

  6. #36
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    There's no James but there is Jacob in John 4.

  7. #37
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    I noticed your signature RC. You might want to look into this documentary video:
    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...hristian-Pinto

    Pinto talks about who Paine was and Reason vs Faith.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I noticed your signature RC. You might want to look into this documentary video:
    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...hristian-Pinto

    Pinto talks about who Paine was and Reason vs Faith.
    Thanks man! I've actually seen that one before, but I think I'll watch it again.
    Facing the East,
    Frater Rosae Crucis



    "It is only by the exercise of Reason, that man can discover God."
    ~ Thomas Paine

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RC Christian View Post
    I like how you view the Scriptures with more of a Spiritual perspective. You don't find that very often. Have you or anyone else reading this thread ever pondered the passage about Jacob using the striped and speckled rods placed in the watering trough and having the cattle and sheep (I think it was both types of animals) stare at the rods during sex to make them have striped and speckled offspring? (Genesis 30:26-43) If so, what is everyone's take on that?
    Hi RC and all,

    That is actually a basis of a certain level of Magic. You can find it in the Greater Keys of Solomon or the Lesser Keys of Solomon. Both books are Qabalistic Magic. The Lesser keys deal with invokations and signs and sigils used in the invokation of demons and the Greater pretty much the same thing only dealing with invoking angels and arch-angels.

    But from a spiritual perspective, the universe is self-reflecting. That which we see and can know about this Reality is colored by our cultural and personal viewpoint. If it is speckled and spotted, that is what we get back. We are creators, made in the image of the Creator.

    God, the Creator made everything to reproduce and replenish "after it's own kind." Trees, plants, grass and the very substance of Reality itself. The Spirit hovered over the "face" (surface) of the waters. This is God beholding himself in a mirror.
    Jesus came to give us a pure image into which we grow if we behold that image. A lamb without blemish.

    2co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

    1co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    Jacob is decieving the deciever. Using the principle of image and reflection to get himself out of his situation.
    He made a deal with his father-in-law for one of his daughters. He worked 7 years. (Covenant) He was given the wrong daughter. He worked antoher seven years for the original daughter he was promised. 14 total. (circumcision of heart) (baptism) (a change of self reflection)
    We basically do the same things when we use self image to change our own circumstances. We are "tricking" the subconscious mind which has been tricking us. If it is all illusion and reflection anyway, why not believe the original Covenant???

    That is growing in faith and crossing over the hurdles that keep us tied to our "life as per usual" mentality.
    We believe the promises despite all outward appearances.
    What Jacob did to Laban was the same thing that Moses did to Pharoah. And the same thing that Jacob did to Esau. He took the birthright and blessing because it actually belongs to the second born. (He that goes through the realization of Spirit,...born of Spirit or born from above)

    These are all aspects of US. We decieve the deciever. We can work ourselves to death keeping ourselves in bondage or use the same amount of effort and escape the bondage.
    Same principles being used and the same amount of effort being exerted.
    One leads to life and freedom, the other to death and bondage.
    That is what Jesus came to bring us and show us. (The Way,..the entire way. Follow me.)
    Grace and Truth.
    We take the promises and change our spots. That changes our self reflection and something entirely different is born from that.
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob May; 11-26-2011 at 04:34 PM.
    Harry Potter,.. "Is this all happening in my head, or is it real?"
    Professor Dumbledor,.. "Of course it's all happening in your head. What makes you think that means it isn't real?"

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    There's no James but there is Jacob in John 4.
    Good catch! I hadn't thought about that. But when we look at the Greek, we see there is a difference between the two. The OT patriarch is Jacob (Strong's 2385) and the NT James is Jacabos (Strong's 2385). I'd never noticed that before.

    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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