God's 10 Spokes in Genesis 1 = 620 letters

[sylvius]

I don't think it refers to the Ten Commandments at all. The "Law" is the "Law of the Spirit" and the NT contrasts it with the law written in stone (i.e. the Ten Commandments).

2 Corinthians 3:2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. 4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God.

It doesn't make any sense to me to literalize the statement in Jeremiah as if we had the commandments literally written on our physical hearts.

Not "literally written" of course.

If you assume that the tablets that were broken contained the 620-letter version an that the tablets that were laid in the ark contained the 708-letter version (like Rabbi Munk does), then it makes sense.

The new covenant being a matter of mercy, for Jews and Gentiles alike.

It is said that the (620) letters that were inscribed on the first set of tablets wurmed themselves loose from the stone when seeing the people making merry around the golden calf and flew back to heaven, the tablets becoming too heavy for Moses to carry slipped from his hands and scattered on the rocks.

These letters abiding somewhere to be some time inscribed upon human heart. Maybe now.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Not "literally written" of course.

Right ... but even so, I wouldn't say that the the law that gets written on the heart is to be identified with the Ten Commandments. It's the "Law of Liberty" and the "Law of the Spirit" that get written. The Ten Commandments being part of "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" that were abolished:

Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

It seems rather odd to have the Fourth Commandment written on my heart. A day of the week? Written on my heart? And laws like "thou shalt not kill" - what's that doing in my heart if my heart is filled with love? A heart filled with love wouldn't even think about about killing. So I think the law that gets written is just a metaphor for a transformed heart.

If you assume that the tablets that were broken contained the 620-letter version an that the tablets that were laid in the ark contained the 708-letter version (like Rabbi Munk does), then it makes sense.

How could I assume that when God said that the second tablet contained the same words as the first?

The new covenant being a matter of mercy, for Jews and Gentiles alike.

It is said that the (620) letters that were inscribed on the first set of tablets wurmed themselves loose from the stone when seeing the people making merry around the golden calf and flew back to heaven, the tablets becoming too heavy for Moses to carry slipped from his hands and scattered on the rocks.

These letters abiding somewhere to be some time inscribed upon human heart. Maybe now.

Methinks those old rabbis made up too many stories!

[sylvius]

Right ... but even so, I wouldn't say that the the law that gets written on the heart is to be identified with the Ten Commandments. It's the "Law of Liberty" and the "Law of the Spirit" that get written.

"Law of Liberty" "Law of Spirit"

The Ten Commandments being part of "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" that were abolished:

Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Ain't that just another language for the same "written on the heart"?

It seems rather odd to have the Fourth Commandment written on my heart. A day of the week? Written on my heart?

"zachor et-yom hashabbat l'kadsho" - "remember the sabbath day to sanctify it" - is about the secret of NT - The son of man being master also of the sabbath.
(The entrance, door, of Jesus' grave coninciding the entrance of sabbath (Mark 15:46) which is about the 434 ("delet") words in the first chapter of Genesis, "hashishi" being the 434th and last).
Rashi:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi/true
[The word] זָכוֹר is in the פָּעוֹל form, an expression of ongoing action, like "[Let us engage in] eating and drinking אָכוֹל וְשָׁתוֹ) )” (Isa. 22:13), [and] "walking and weeping הָלוֹ וָּבָכֹה) )” (II Sam. 3:16), and this is its interpretation: Pay attention to always remember the Sabbath day, so that if you chance upon a beautiful thing, you shall prepare it for the Sabbath (Mechilta).

And laws like "thou shalt not kill" - what's that doing in my heart if my heart is filled with love? A heart filled with love wouldn't even think about about killing. So I think the law that gets written is just a metaphor for a transformed heart.

Mark 7, 21-23,
"What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

How could I assume that when God said that the second tablet contained the same words as the first?

It doesn't say "the same words", Exodus 34:1,
And I will inscribe upon the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

Methinks those old rabbis made up too many stories!

The story says that the letters carried the stone, which is profound knowledge, like John 1:1, "In te beginning was the word.'

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Right ... but even so, I wouldn't say that the the law that gets written on the heart is to be identified with the Ten Commandments. It's the "Law of Liberty" and the "Law of the Spirit" that get written.

"Law of Liberty" "Law of Spirit"

The Ten Commandments being part of "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" that were abolished:

Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Ain't that just another language for the same "written on the heart"?

No, that's not "just another language" for "written on the heart." Paul said the law was abolished. And he explained that this is because the law brings condemnation and it cannot bring life:

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.

Paul contrasted the "law of the Spirit" with the law of sin and death (Ten Commandments):

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

The Law is very negative. It says "thou shalt NOT" do this and "thou shalt NOT" do that. No law could ever list all the things you shouldn't do in order to be good. That's why Paul said that there was no law that could give life.

The law was a tutor to bring us to Christ. It was not an end in itself:

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now I suppose it could be possible to view the Ten Commandments in some sort of abstract way where it is transformed into a source of divine wisdom. I've got no problem with that. But before going there, it's probably a good idea to get a handle on what Paul actually said about the "curse of the law" and why it could not bring life.

Christ's summation of the law was very positive - "thou shalt love." This covers everything, whereas no finite list of prohibitive commandments could cover every kind of sin. And besides, who would want a list of sins written on their heart?

"zachor et-yom hashabbat l'kadsho" - "remember the sabbath day to sanctify it" - is about the secret of NT - The son of man being master also of the sabbath.
(The entrance, door, of Jesus' grave coninciding the entrance of sabbath (Mark 15:46) which is about the 434 ("delet") words in the first chapter of Genesis, "hashishi" being the 434th and last).
Rashi:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi/true
[The word] זָכוֹר is in the פָּעוֹל form, an expression of ongoing action, like "[Let us engage in] eating and drinking אָכוֹל וְשָׁתוֹ) )" (Isa. 22:13), [and] "walking and weeping הָלוֹ וָּבָכֹה) )" (II Sam. 3:16), and this is its interpretation: Pay attention to always remember the Sabbath day, so that if you chance upon a beautiful thing, you shall prepare it for the Sabbath (Mechilta).

That's what I meant - we could spend our lives speculating about the spiritual meaning of every letter of the Ten Commandments. I've got no problem with that. Indeed, it fits well with Paul's statement that everything in the OT was written for our admonition. And I suppose from this spiritual point of view, we could think of the Ten Commandments being what is "written on our hearts" in the symbolic language of God. That's pretty cool, really.

How could I assume that when God said that the second tablet contained the same words as the first?

It doesn't say "the same words", Exodus 34:1,
And I will inscribe upon the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

Yes it does. It just doesn't use the word "same" because that word is not needed. He said "I will write the words that were on the first tablet." If he wrote different words, then he would not be writing the words that were on the first tablet.

Methinks those old rabbis made up too many stories!

The story says that the letters carried the stone, which is profound knowledge, like John 1:1, "In te beginning was the word.'

And how do you know that story is true? How do you distinguish between falsehood, fantasy, speculation, and authentic knowledge? For you to call it "knowledge" seems very strange. Do you believe everything any rabbi says? What if some false stories got into their tradition? How would they clean them out?

[sylvius]

No, that's not "just another language" for "written on the heart." Paul said the law was abolished.

Paul speaks about "nomos", law, while Jeremiah 31:32 speaks about Torah.
Torah as "law" is external.
Paul stresses the inner meaning, like Jeremiah does too.

Yes it does. It just doesn't use the word "same" because that word is not needed. He said "I will write the words that were on the first tablet." If he wrote different words, then he would not be writing the words that were on the first tablet.

Hebrew "davar" does not per se denote a specific word.
Exodus 34:1,
"I and I will write upon the tablets the words that were on the first tablets that you did break."

the words = אֶת-הַדְּבָרִים = "et-had'varim" = the (ten) sayings

And how do you know that story is true? How do you distinguish between falsehood, fantasy, speculation, and authentic knowledge? For you to call it "knowledge" seems very strange.

From where you know that "in the beginning was the word"? That everything did become through the word?
What proof you got?
Was it not gematria 2701 of Genesis 1:1, a triangle with outline 216 = 6x6x6?
Or the 1:4 ratio of the two trees?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Paul speaks about "nomos", law, while Jeremiah 31:32 speaks about Torah.
Torah as "law" is external.
Paul stresses the inner meaning, like Jeremiah does too.

Your distinction between nomos and torah is invalid because when that verse is quoted in the NT (Heb 8:10) it uses the word nomos. So nomos and torah are treated as synonyms.

There is a lot of ambiguity around the words nomos and torah. Sometimes they appear to refer to the entire Tanach, other times the Pentateuch, sometimes just the abstract idea of "God's law," sometimes just general principles, etc. And Paul mentions things as being in the law that are not written in the law, such as a women being bound to her husband as long as he lives (Rom 7).

Hebrew "davar" does not per se denote a specific word.
Exodus 34:1,
"I and I will write upon the tablets the words that were on the first tablets that you did break."

the words = אֶת-הַדְּבָרִים = "et-had'varim" = the (ten) sayings

True, but there's still no reason to think that God wrote the version we find in Deuteronomy.

From where you know that "in the beginning was the word"? That everything did become through the word?
What proof you got?
Was it not gematria 2701 of Genesis 1:1, a triangle with outline 216 = 6x6x6?
Or the 1:4 ratio of the two trees?

Yes, I considered gematria and the Bible Wheel to be good evidence for the Bible. But what does that have to do with stories made up by rabbis? Is the idea of the letters carrying the stone tablets supported by any evidence?

[sylvius]

Your distinction between nomos and torah is invalid because when that verse is quoted in the NT (Heb 8:10) it uses the word nomos. So nomos and torah are treated as synonyms.

Hebrews was not written by Paul.

John 1:17, ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.

"charis kai alètheia" -- the inner meaning of the "nomos".

True, but there's still no reason to think that God wrote the version we find in Deuteronomy.

,

Yes, but the seventeen words more are. 17 = "tov" and third "tov" of Genesis the 153rd word from the beginning. John knew that too.


[

]Yes, I considered gematria and the Bible Wheel to be good evidence for the Bible. But what does that have to do with stories made up by rabbis? Is the idea of the letters carrying the stone tablets supported by any evidence?

It is parable.

The letters went through the stone, The tablets were written "mizeh mizeh". the miracle was that the middelparts of "samech"and "mem-sofit" stayed on place.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hebrews was not written by Paul.

Nobody knows who wrote Hebrews. There is much in it that sounds like him, and much that does not. Throughout most history the Church both east and west has attributed it to Paul. But it doesn't matter who wrote it. When Paul quoted the OT concerning the Torah, he used the word "nomos." So my point stands.

John 1:17, ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.

"charis kai alètheia" -- the inner meaning of the "nomos".

That's not true. John contrasted the law with "truth and grace." He didn't say that "truth and grace" were the "inner meaning of nomos."

True, but there's still no reason to think that God wrote the version we find in Deuteronomy.

Yes, but the seventeen words more are. 17 = "tov" and third "tov" of Genesis the 153rd word from the beginning. John knew that too.

But it would be an error to think that every occurrence of the number 17 pointed to tov and its first appearance in Genesis.

You have not given me any reason to think that the version in Deuteronomy is the second version that God wrote in Exodus.

And you have not given me any reason to think that the version in Deuteronomy was put in the ark.

It is parable.

The letters went through the stone, The tablets were written "mizeh mizeh". the miracle was that the middelparts of "samech"and "mem-sofit" stayed on place.

Parables are cool! I love parables. But you said it was "knowledge" and I don't see any knowledge in that parable. It's more like a speculation, a hint, a little something to think about. It's not knowledge. It didn't really happen but you presented it as if it did really happen.

It's just like the "parable" about the midparts of the letters magically floating in space. You seem to be accepting that as fact. So which is it?

[sylvius]

Nobody knows who wrote Hebrews. There is much in it that sounds like him, and much that does not. Throughout most history the Church both east and west has attributed it to Paul. But it doesn't matter who wrote it. When Paul quoted the OT concerning the Torah, he used the word "nomos." So my point stands.

Paul was master of gematria, which migth be clear from 1Corinthians 13, "the song of love", written in 13 verses, 13 being gematria of "ahavah", love.
13x13 = 169, gematria of the name Joktan. Joktan means "little one" like (Latin) Paulus.
Joktan forms together with his brother Peleg the 15th generation of Adam, the 15th of the 26 generations from Adam to Moses, from Ädam to the giving of the Torah, revelation at the Sinai, on the 6th day of Sivan in the biblical year 2448.

26 is gematria of God's name 10-5-6-5, name revealed at Sinai.

The split, division, lies in the fifteenth generation.

Genesis 10:25,
And to Eber were born two sons: one was named Peleg, because in his days the earth was divided, and the name of his brother was Joktan.

Rashi:

was divided: The tongues became confused, and they were scattered from the valley and were dispersed throughout the entire world. We learn that Eber was a prophet, since he named his son for a future event [i.e. פֶּלֶג resembles the word נִפְלְגָה meaning “dispersed.”]. And we learned in Seder Olam (ch. 1) that at the end of his [Peleg’s] days, they were dispersed. For if you say that [they were dispersed] at the beginning of his days, behold his brother Joktan was his junior, and he begot many families before that, as it is said (verse 26): “And Joktan begot, etc.,” and [only] afterwards, [is it written] (11: 1):“And the whole earth was one language.” Now if you say [that they were dispersed] in the middle of his [Peleg’s] days, [this is not so, because] Scripture does not come to make things obscure but to explain. Hence, you learn that in the year of Peleg’s death, they were dispersed

Joktan: Because he was humble and considered himself small (קָטָן). Therefore, he merited to raise all these families. — [from Gen. Rabbah 37:7]

"all these families" , thirteen in total (next verses).


The writer of Hebrews was certainly not "master of gematria" on the contrary, which might be clear from his (mis)interpretation of Psalms 110.

That's not true. John contrasted the law with "truth and grace." He didn't say that "truth and grace" were the "inner meaning of nomos."

How you came to that?
John knew about the number 153, the earth being cursed because of Adam's sin, and God seeing "ki-tov", that it was good.
And next:
Genesis 5:29,
And he named him Noach, saying, "This one will give us rest from our work and from the toil of our hands from the ground, which the Lord has cursed."
and Genesis 6:8,
But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
LXX:
νωε δὲ εὗρεν χάριν ἐναντίον κυρίου τοῦ θεοῦ

So where John uses "charis" he means Hebrew "chen" - gematria 58, like gematria of the name Noach.

You have not given me any reason to think that the version in Deuteronomy is the second version that God wrote in Exodus. And you have not given me any reason to think that the version in Deuteronomy was put in the ark.

That's not true.
On the contrary, you didn't give reason to think that the second set of tablets was inscribed with the same 172 words / 620 letters as the first.

Parables are cool! I love parables. But you said it was "knowledge" and I don't see any knowledge in that parable. It's more like a speculation, a hint, a little something to think about. It's not knowledge. It didn't really happen but you presented it as if it did really happen.
It's just like the "parable" about the midparts of the letters magically floating in space. You seem to be accepting that as fact. So which is it?[/

There is certain knowledge behind it.

[refugeeguru]

Hi guys!

Some GREAT stuff in all this - ditto for Richard's HoloDec material.

Keep it coming - it's wonderful!