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  1. #11
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    [QUOTE=Charisma;37516]Hi Richard,
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    [Folks don't always quote exactly, they "quote" what they think the person meant, not necessary what he actually said. /QUOTE]
    I think this may be a modern conjecture upon an ancient way of 'hearing' things. I think it's the other way around - that they heard what He said and recorded it remarkably accurately by our standards - but they still needed the interpretation. Historically this had been going on in 'Israel' the people, for many centuries. It was nothing new. What's more, God did not fail them. Eventually, after the resurrection, His prophecy that they would understand, did come true in their experience.
    Hi Charisma,

    What makes you think ordinary people "heard what He said and recorded it remarkably accurately by our standards?" The vast majority of them could not "record" anything in writing because they didn't know how to read or write.

    And how would we know if the average person would or would not quote exact words that they had heard someone speak? That sounds like pure speculation. Upon what are you basing your statements?

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Goodie View Post
    Was he? I guess it all depends upon the bolded and underlined portion of that verse:

    2 Corinthians 5:1 - For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    It seems that there is a definite contrast with the "earthly house of this tabernacle" and that of the "building of God" which is NOT made with hands.

    The question therefore shifts as to whether the human body was made with hands, and I don't remember seeing any mention of that consideration - just the physical temple...

    If one is able to read the next 10 or 12 verses in regard to being in bondage to the elements (of the law) [burden] and such like things, perhaps it clarifies matters. For me, it works because I think in regard to corporate structures, i.e. - the corporate old covenant body and the corporate new covenant body. When we think only in terms of human bodies and other physical things regarding redemption context, we miss the target...
    Thanks Edward,

    For replying to this discussion and as to what you mentioned is to the point and what I being observing in how Paul is using terms relating not to the human body, but to man that is Adam which in turn is Israel.
    Last edited by Beck; 11-22-2011 at 04:50 PM. Reason: typo
    Beck

  3. #13
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    [QUOTE=RAM;37521]
    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Richard,

    Hi Charisma,

    What makes you think ordinary people "heard what He said and recorded it remarkably accurately by our standards?" The vast majority of them could not "record" anything in writing because they didn't know how to read or write.

    And how would we know if the average person would or would not quote exact words that they had heard someone speak? That sounds like pure speculation. Upon what are you basing your statements?

    Richard
    And Richard I hope you would agree that words that were written sometimes in the translation is misrepresented by the scribes bias. Words like 'earth' and 'earthly' gives the notion of the world and the inhabitants, but we know that the writer know nothing of that word earth. So we need to really take care when this types of words are used to define what the writer intended as to meaning and context.
    Beck

  4. #14
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    The Body of Jesus

    Hi Richard,

    Upon what are you basing your statements?
    First of all there are many places in the gospels where what Jesus said is almost identical in the places it is recorded.

    Secondly, I think when one is used to dealing without the written word, one does develop an ear for detail. Every child was trained to remember and be able to repeat prayers and history.

    Thirdly, I infer from your posts that you have never heard God speak, but, you could be putting out of your mind the times that you thought He spoke, because now you might find it embarrassing to have heard from Him, since you don't want to believe. I'm not sure if I've picked that up correctly. So, while I'm acknowledging that anyone can be confused at times about which 'voice' one is 'hearing' or listening to, there are also times when one is in no doubt that one has heard God. The words are etched in one's memory. I wonder if when Jesus spoke, something like that was going on - all the more so because there was so much they didn't understand? Now, that last thought IS speculation.

    I've had that experience of hearing things I don't understand both about God and from God, and because it is incomprehensible, it sticks in the mind like a puzzle. I'm not saying that's always God speaking (of course), but the disciples were with Jesus. We are certain they were hearing from God through Him - His voice, the mysteries He revealed to their understanding, the actual stories He told which were sometimes very like something in the OT. They would make some of those connections, later.

    The reason I know this is that I've read very carefully in discussions with others, and Peter and Paul - considering they didn't meet very often - have the same doctrine. That means not only did they hear the same things from the Lord, and from the word, but the Holy Spirit gave them the same interpretations.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  5. #15
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    The Body of Jesus

    Hi Beck,

    I notice you didn't comment yet, on the word which Jesus actually used for 'the temple' meaning His body, and 'temple made without hands' which Paul picks up.

    Just to be completely consistent, there is also the true tabernacle in the heavens which the Lord pitched, not man, to have a think about, as this is the original template for every other 'tabernacle', within which He Himself is present. Hebrews 8:2

    The other thing I wanted to mention is the OT history of the prophecy of a 'stone of stumbling', Christ, who became the Head of the corner. The stone which the 'builders' rejected. This theme is taken up by Peter, that we are living stones. Immediately, there is a whole history of Solomon's Temple brought to bear in how the Lord shapes us in the quarry, so that one day when we are all together, we will fit perfectly in place.

    This is not Israel unless you believe in the new Israel of God as being a spiritual entity - corruption having put on incorruption, and mortality having put on immortality.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Richard,
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Upon what are you basing your statements?
    First of all there are many places in the gospels where what Jesus said is almost identical in the places it is recorded.

    Secondly, I think when one is used to dealing without the written word, one does develop an ear for detail. Every child was trained to remember and be able to repeat prayers and history.

    Thirdly, I infer from your posts that you have never heard God speak, but, you could be putting out of your mind the times that you thought He spoke, because now you might find it embarrassing to have heard from Him, since you don't want to believe. I'm not sure if I've picked that up correctly. So, while I'm acknowledging that anyone can be confused at times about which 'voice' one is 'hearing' or listening to, there are also times when one is in no doubt that one has heard God. The words are etched in one's memory. I wonder if when Jesus spoke, something like that was going on - all the more so because there was so much they didn't understand? Now, that last thought IS speculation.

    I've had that experience of hearing things I don't understand both about God and from God, and because it is incomprehensible, it sticks in the mind like a puzzle. I'm not saying that's always God speaking (of course), but the disciples were with Jesus. We are certain they were hearing from God through Him - His voice, the mysteries He revealed to their understanding, the actual stories He told which were sometimes very like something in the OT. They would make some of those connections, later.

    The reason I know this is that I've read very carefully in discussions with others, and Peter and Paul - considering they didn't meet very often - have the same doctrine. That means not only did they hear the same things from the Lord, and from the word, but the Holy Spirit gave them the same interpretations.
    Hey there Charisma,

    Thanks for the detailed answers.

    1) First of all there are many places in the gospels where what Jesus said is almost identical in the places it is recorded.
    I don't see who that could be evidence for your contention. On the contrary, it suggests that they were copying from each other. This is because they often wrote things that were letter for letter identical, and then deleted, inserted, or changes a word right in the middle of it.

    2) Secondly, I think when one is used to dealing without the written word, one does develop an ear for detail.
    I agree that that pre-literate aural cultures tend to have better memory for spoke words.

    3) Thirdly, I infer from your posts that you have never heard God speak, but, you could be putting out of your mind the times that you thought He spoke, because now you might find it embarrassing to have heard from Him, since you don't want to believe.
    I'm glad you added the caveat that you "aren't sure" on this point. Where in the world did you get the idea that I didn't "want" to believe? My rejection of the various Christianities humans have invented has nothing to do with "not wanting to believe." Who wouldn't "want" to believe if they new it was true? That's totally irrational. I discovered that I could not believe in any of the Christianities that people have invented because I do not believe they are true. And I have solid reasons for my convictions. Simple as that.

    Now as for "hearing God" - I have asked you many times how you discern between "God" and your own imagination and you have never given as answer as far as I know. I have tried to help you see that people of other religions make the same claim about "hearing God" so I can't just believe everyone. So how does person know if they have really heard from God or not?

    But I do agree with the idea that his words could have "echoed" in their ears for years, and the Holy Spirit could have broght them to their attention. But that's all speculation, and it certainly doesn't give us any reason to believe that the particular books that are in the Bible are correct. Else the same argument could be used by Catholics for the Apocrypha, and the Mormons for their extra books.

    4) The reason I know this is that I've read very carefully in discussions with others, and Peter and Paul - considering they didn't meet very often - have the same doctrine. That means not only did they hear the same things from the Lord, and from the word, but the Holy Spirit gave them the same interpretations.
    Well, we know that Peter read Paul's letters because he talked about them in 2 Peter 3: . So they didn't have to "meet very often" to know what the other was teaching. And your argument doesn't work so well for Paul vs. James. When we compare those two writers, it appears that James was completely aware of Paul's writing and he was deliberately contradicting them. Specifically:

    Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is NOT justified by works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ,

    James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

    Check out the Greek. The same words are used for man, justified, works, and faith. It looks like James was deliberately contradicting Paul.

    It's good to be working on this with you,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Beck,

    I notice you didn't comment yet, on the word which Jesus actually used for 'the temple' meaning His body, and 'temple made without hands' which Paul picks up.

    Just to be completely consistent, there is also the true tabernacle in the heavens which the Lord pitched, not man, to have a think about, as this is the original template for every other 'tabernacle', within which He Himself is present. Hebrews 8:2

    The other thing I wanted to mention is the OT history of the prophecy of a 'stone of stumbling', Christ, who became the Head of the corner. The stone which the 'builders' rejected. This theme is taken up by Peter, that we are living stones. Immediately, there is a whole history of Solomon's Temple brought to bear in how the Lord shapes us in the quarry, so that one day when we are all together, we will fit perfectly in place.

    This is not Israel unless you believe in the new Israel of God as being a spiritual entity - corruption having put on incorruption, and mortality having put on immortality.
    Hi Charisma,

    No I have not commented on that particular point of that passage. Although I see the many parallels you have mentioned. I don't disagree with them, but my main point in this thread was to get some insight into the 'temple made with hands' that is to be destroyed. Many people seem to think becasue Jesus is rasied in three days and that John spoke as if his body was the temple that was destoryed.

    Simply I don't see it that way, but rather John is saying that the temple of God will be destoryed, and build another temple not made with hands in three days.
    Beck

  8. #18
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    The Body of Jesus

    Hi Beck,

    Simply I don't see it that way, but rather John is saying that the temple of God will be destoryed, and build another temple not made with hands in three days.
    As John was quoting Jesus, and Jesus was speaking about the Holy of Holies - both the physical Holy of Holies in the Temple, and His own body - what don't you 'get'?

    There is no conflict between what Jesus actually said, and the interpretation which was later revealed to the disciples by the Holy Spirit.

    Words like 'earth' and 'earthly' gives the notion of the world and the inhabitants, but we know that the writer know nothing of that word earth.
    Here, I don't know what you mean by 'the writer know nothing of the word earth'. Adam means 'earth'. What didn't the writer know about 'earth'?

    Also, 'For God so loved 'the world', has a strong meaning in the Greek of, 'For God so loved people...', which is quite consistent with 'Adam', as shorthand for mankind.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  9. #19
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    The Body of Jesus

    Hi Richard,

    Here are my thoughts on your reply to my reasons, for which, thanks.

    1) 'On the contrary, it suggests that they were copying from each other.' Do you have evidence for copying between the gospel writers?

    2) Glad you think so as well.

    3) 'And I have solid reasons for my convictions. Simple as that.' My comment leads on to your next point, namely, that the only 'solid reasons' for believing in God is God Himself and His revelation to you personally. That's someone no-one else can get for you. It's also something no-one can take away from you, though you may feel isolated by it. In Christian culture (I mean, NT Christian culture), to be isolated from others by a genuine encounter with God, is held in high regard.

    I can guess you're going to ask 'why would anyone believe that a person has had an encounter with God?' The answer is that one ought to be changed by such an encounter. It may not show immediately to the outside onlooker, but there is an ongoing effect of an encounter with God on the inside, which does lead to change. Of course, if one rejects the fact of the encounter, that also leads to change because one has not 'obeyed the truth' that has been revealed.


    'Now as for "hearing God" - I have asked you many times how you discern between "God" and your own imagination and you have never given as answer as far as I know. I have tried to help you see that people of other religions make the same claim about "hearing God" so I can't just believe everyone. So how does person know if they have really heard from God or not?'

    As I've tried to say, no-one expects you, (apart from you, it seems), to believe everyone. I've also reminded you that within yourself you have faculties for identifying truth all by yourself. If you don't use them. Or, if you try to identify truth by other means, it isn't surprising you remain unsure. Anyone would.

    Also, you aren't being asked to believe 'anything'. God's desire is that you should seek HIM ONLY with a 'single eye' and a 'single heart'. That's His simple challenge. That's when 'light' appears. I do completely understand that making that choice feels like a death sentence to all you hold dear. God know that. That's what He wants from you. Some of us have been through it so many times in little increments that eventually we toss in the towel as soon as we recognise the scenario. It is indeed a test of where one's heart is truly inclined, and whether one really, really, really wants a relationship with God - or, just a pretense of one.


    4) 'Well, we know that Peter read Paul's letters because he talked about them in 2 Peter 3: . So they didn't have to "meet very often" to know what the other was teaching. And your argument doesn't work so well for Paul vs. James. When we compare those two writers, it appears that James was completely aware of Paul's writing and he was deliberately contradicting them. Specifically:

    Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is NOT justified by works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ,

    James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.'

    Hmm. Interesting observations. But, there is no contradiction between what Paul and James are saying because they are talking about two different things.

    Paul is talking about 'works of the law as a means of salvation' vs 'faith in Christ', and James is talking about 'faith in Christ without tangible works which benefit others' and 'faith in Christ with tangible works which benefit others'.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Richard,

    1) 'On the contrary, it suggests that they were copying from each other.' Do you have evidence for copying between the gospel writers?
    Really? This is just an assumption, that the gospel writers copied from each other? The way people talk about it, I thought it was a fact. How would anyone really know?

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

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