Codex Magica

[heb13-13]

"Contrasting the Lord doing things openly and the powers of darkness using subterfuge, secrecy and darkness to veil their true motives."


Hi Heb13-13,

In regards to your quote above (sorry, I haven't learned how to do the insert-quote within a reply, yet), my best response to you would be what Rosicrucians and Freemasons each state throughout their discourses (assuming that some of the comments by you and Charisma are directed partially towards them...if not...my bad, please disregard, with apologies on my part) :

Matthew 13:10-13 "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

References to "eyes" and "ears", "hearing" and "seeing" are symbolic and allegorical, in nature, in esoteric and arcane writings and artwork. Hence, the "All-Seeing Eye". Thought Facterd might find that interesting.

Hey there RC,

That is a great point! So Jesus, did speak openly but in parables, so that "seeing, they will not see and hearing they will not hear". But, He did not "disguise" His truth with lies or darkness. I think He goes on to explain that the darkness that veils His parables is the darkness in our own hearts. What do you think?

The disciples even asked Jesus why He spoke in parables and His answer was:
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Mat 13:15

I highlighted some words in your verses. "For whosoever hath"... "or hath not". What do you think Jesus is referring to? Do you think it is faith or what?

Thanks RC, something good to munch on,
Rick

[RC Christian]

Hey there RC,

That is a great point! So Jesus, did speak openly but in parables, so that "seeing, they will not see and hearing they will not hear". But, He did not "disguise" His truth with lies or darkness. I think He goes on to explain that the darkness that veils His parables is the darkness in our own hearts. What do you think?

The disciples even asked Jesus why He spoke in parables and His answer was:
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Mat 13:15

I highlighted some words in your verses. "For whosoever hath"... "or hath not". What do you think Jesus is referring to? Do you think it is faith or what?

Thanks RC, something good to munch on,
Rick

Well first of all, I'd love for you or some other kind member on the board to educate me on how to do the "insert partial quotes within the body of a reply" In reference to your remark, what are you referring to as "lies and darkness", if you're discussing the societies that we're referencing? And just for argument sake, suppose these societies did/do have a "secret" (sorry Richard) that was entrusted to them...entrusted by oaths...that wouldn't be evil, would it? And suppose their symbols and rituals were put out there for others who come across the same secrets, independently or accidentally, to know who to go and learn from...I guess as a bad analogy...kind of like smoke signals.

"For whosoever hath"... "or hath not" ... my 'opinion'...you may not like the answer, but ...those initiated into the mystery school teachings of the day. Again, just my opinion...not my thesis.


Thanks for the response to my post and thanks for the conversation.

[heb13-13]

Well first of all, I'd love for you or some other kind member on the board to educate me on how to do the "insert partial quotes within the body of a reply" In reference to your remark, what are you referring to as "lies and darkness", if you're discussing the societies that we're referencing? And just for argument sake, suppose these societies did/do have a "secret" (sorry Richard) that was entrusted to them...entrusted by oaths...that wouldn't be evil, would it? And suppose their symbols and rituals were put out there for others who come across the same secrets, independently or accidentally, to know who to go and learn from...I guess as a bad analogy...kind of like smoke signals.

"For whosoever hath"... "or hath not" ... my 'opinion'...you may not like the answer, but ...those initiated into the mystery school teachings of the day. Again, just my opinion...not my thesis.


Thanks for the response to my post and thanks for the conversation.

Hi RC,

No problem. It is an interesting conversation and it stimulates various avenues of thinking.

Yes, it could be that only those in the "mystery schools" are in the "know" or "hath" and others "hath not". However, it seems that it all depends on who is using the Bible or the words in the Bible and what their view of "knowledge" is and their motives for desiring this knowledge. I can definitely see that it is used by many groups or people for various reasons and they may or may not be in agreement on select topics.

But is knowledge important for knowledge sake or is the knowledge of God (not facts) within relationship with Him, what is really important? I'm sure there are differing opinions.

One verse that comes to mind is:

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." Tit 1:16

So, here is a statement that actually would help one in "testing the spirits". There are many such truths in the Bible that are tools in sharpening one's discernment. But discernment does not come solely from "printed words" otherwise all who read the Bible would have discernment. Right? The indwelling Holy Spirit is a matchless "guide" who will lead into all truth.

Regarding "lies and darkness", that goes back to many discussions on this forum as to what is a lie and what is truth. If we can agree that God is truth and in Him is no darkness at all, then darkness (whatever that might be) could be used to "shade" or even obscure God's truth (whatever that might be). Where there is darkness you don't find any light. But the reality is that there is usually mixture. The light is not that bright and the darkness is not that dark. In other words, it's enough light (truth) to fool many (make things believable). Bring up the "believability" level a notch or two.

I say "whatever that might be", because I want to be generous to all and not come across as one that judges who has light and who does not. I also am being honest in saying that I don't have the market on truth, either. Not by a long run. My experience is that a lot of people have both light and darkness (truth and untruths) and key for all of us is to apprehend more "light" in our lives. Why would any rational (to use Richard's phrase) person want more darkness? Anyone who says they do have all the truth, is obviously in darkness (and we can probably agree on that). On the other hand, a babe in Christ does not have to have all knowledge to know God, do they? The depth of his knowledge may not be deep, but knowing God is never about reams and reams of knowledge.

I have often said that Truth is a Person.

"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:" Jer 9:23

"But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." Jer 9:24

Jeremiah agrees with Matthew 7 about the man that appears before the Lord at the judgement and is boasting about all that he had accomplished on earth, in Jesus' name no less. Yet the Lord say, "Depart from me, I never knew you".

Same thing in Matthew 25 regarding the 10 virgins. The five that pleaded for the door to be opened heard the words, "I don't know you".

And that brings up another point about secret words, handshakes, body positions, etc.

Christians don't rely on those things as a general rule in getting to know if someone is the genuine article or not. Maybe in times of severe persecution they develop signs that would conceal where the brethren are hiding or meeting but generally Christians rely on the Holy Spirit to confirm and validate the Christ in someone else. And it has nothing to do with saying the "right words", repeating predefined phrases, or wearing certain jewelry or clothing or having any kind of hand signs or gestures.

Without the "mind of Christ" we cannot hope to understand the things of God or "know the Lord".

The preaching of the good news has never been a matter of persuading someone through the process of reasoning (Think Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands a Verdict). Instead, it has always been a matter of simply declaring Christ's reality. This is a ridiculous proposition that will only leave the messenger in a totally helpless role. For people to believe him, nothing short of a miracle is always needed to translate one from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of His Dear Son (Col 1:13).

Many want to "add" to the "recipe" (Gospel) in order to bring up the believability level in people. So, today we have all kinds of rituals, formal liturgies, formulas (Institutional, scriptural or otherwise), miracles, miracle workers, etc, etc, because those in control know that people gravitate to these things. And those in control don't want to be left in a position where they have no control or influence. So they think if they can add some "weight" of believability to the message of the cross and the things of the Spirit then people will believe and their organization will grow. But, are they really being validated by God? Isn't that what we all want to know? Are we on the right road?

I think that kind of thinking (trying to make the Gospel more believable) has been responsible for many false conversions and the false conversions have made Christianity a laughingstock. But that's ok. It has always been this way. The truth has always been maligned.

You see our validation has to truly come from Christ alone but something interesting about people is that they want to have "a part in it", they want to make God's message better and more believable, because it is uncomfortable to them in it's present state. The flesh does not like being a "fool for Christ".

So with what I have said about "believability level" as a foundation you can understand then why there is such a big drive today to "prove" faith through science and all manner of books and a never ending supply of miraculous healing ministries. If only people will see this or read that, then surely they will believe. We just need more "proof" to show people. And of course all of this always makes sense to the natural mind. But, because of this there is an unending plethora of debates on Christianity by Christians, and I really wonder how much of it is profitable. I try to have conversations with others but catch myself in a debate sometimes and realize that it is probably not going to end well.

Anyway, I'm in danger of rambling,

All the best,
Rick

P.S. Just a short story for you.

Myself and others all meet in a home, or at Denny's, maybe the park for a barbecue or whatever, but sometimes we have "guests". People that want to visit. We don't feel intimidated or paranoid or have secret handshakes or code words. We just get to know them on a relational level. We want everyone to share their portion of Christ. And we look for Christ in them as we hope they are looking for a portion of Christ in us. One particular person met with us for about 6 months and everything seemed to be really cool, but then he started talking about the Sabbath being Saturday and we needed to honor the Sabbath, and do this and that etc, etc. Well, after praying about it and thinking about it for several weeks, the brothers in the fellowship talked to this person one day and just simply said to him, "If God is telling you to observe Saturday as the Sabbath, then we think you better obey Him". And that was that. No harsh words, no docrinal arguments, no strife. However, the individual stopped coming to meet with us. We have no leader except Christ, no man to tell everyone what to do and how to do it, no man that takes over our gatherings and regiments them. Our meetings are open meetings and everyone can participate. The children often do, because they sense freedom. But sometimes guests come who think we need some "organization". Well, suffice to say, the Lord has always taken care of us. But if we ever stop making Him the focus of our attention, and we stop giving Him the preeminence, we know that we are in trouble. Many of us have these past experiences of gravitating to men and buildings and organizations and many others things that are suppose to increase the "believability level" but never do. They only serve to take you away from Christ.

Do we think we have all the answers? No. We need Christ to validate and confirm us everyday and to tweak our spiritual GPS to make sure we stay on the "narrow road".

[Richard Amiel McGough]

That they labour under the misapprehension that darkness, sin, death and destruction is more desirable than light and life, only proves what Paul and John said about darkness blinding the minds of those who are perishing - and that they don't 'see' it as 'a lie', or, truly, that they 'love' 'a lie'. Of course, everyone is entitled* to their own opinion. It always surprises me that those who reserve the right to deny God on those terms, are reluctant to grant those who believe in Him the same* freedom.

Isaiah 5

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

"Woe" sounds real bad...

"It is appointed unto men once to die, and then all is forgiven and everyone is happy as if nothing of any significance, (either good or evil) ever took place on planet earth.

It makes you wonder.

Great post,
Rick

Hey there Rick,

I agree that "woe" sounds bad, and that's how it should sound. But I see no reason to think that verse is speaking about the eternal conscious torment of the damned. Look at those to whom he's talking! His own people -

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight! 22 Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, Woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink, 23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe, And take away justice from the righteous man! 24 Therefore, as the fire devours the stubble, And the flame consumes the chaff, So their root will be as rottenness, And their blossom will ascend like dust; Because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. 25 Therefore the anger of the LORD is aroused against His people; He has stretched out His hand against them And stricken them, And the hills trembled. Their carcasses were as refuse in the midst of the streets. For all this His anger is not turned away, But His hand is stretched out still.

Also, I wonder if there are any real people to whom you would want to apply those verses. Do you personally know anyone you would classify that way? I'm not talking about people you see in the news or who wrote a book, but real, living people that you know around you.

Great chatting,

Richard

[RC Christian]

Hi RC,

No problem. It is an interesting conversation and it stimulates various avenues of thinking.

Yes, it could be that only those in the "mystery schools" are in the "know" or "hath" and others "hath not". However, it seems that it all depends on who is using the Bible or the words in the Bible and what their view of "knowledge" is and their motives for desiring this knowledge. I can definitely see that it is used by many groups or people for various reasons and they may or may not be in agreement on select topics.

But is knowledge important for knowledge sake or is the knowledge of God (not facts) within relationship with Him, what is really important? I'm sure there are differing opinions.

One verse that comes to mind is:

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." Tit 1:16

So, here is a statement that actually would help one in "testing the spirits". There are many such truths in the Bible that are tools in sharpening one's discernment. But discernment does not come solely from "printed words" otherwise all who read the Bible would have discernment. Right? The indwelling Holy Spirit is a matchless "guide" who will lead into all truth.

Regarding "lies and darkness", that goes back to many discussions on this forum as to what is a lie and what is truth. If we can agree that God is truth and in Him is no darkness at all, then darkness (whatever that might be) could be used to "shade" or even obscure God's truth (whatever that might be). Where there is darkness you don't find any light. But the reality is that there is usually mixture. The light is not that bright and the darkness is not that dark. In other words, it's enough light (truth) to fool many (make things believable). Bring up the "believability" level a notch or two.

I say "whatever that might be", because I want to be generous to all and not come across as one that judges who has light and who does not. I also am being honest in saying that I don't have the market on truth, either. Not by a long run. My experience is that a lot of people have both light and darkness (truth and untruths) and key for all of us is to apprehend more "light" in our lives. Why would any rational (to use Richard's phrase) person want more darkness? Anyone who says they do have all the truth, is obviously in darkness (and we can probably agree on that). On the other hand, a babe in Christ does not have to have all knowledge to know God, do they? The depth of his knowledge may not be deep, but knowing God is never about reams and reams of knowledge.

I have often said that Truth is a Person.

"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:" Jer 9:23

"But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." Jer 9:24

Jeremiah agrees with Matthew 7 about the man that appears before the Lord at the judgement and is boasting about all that he had accomplished on earth, in Jesus' name no less. Yet the Lord say, "Depart from me, I never knew you".

Same thing in Matthew 25 regarding the 10 virgins. The five that pleaded for the door to be opened heard the words, "I don't know you".

And that brings up another point about secret words, handshakes, body positions, etc.

Christians don't rely on those things as a general rule in getting to know if someone is the genuine article or not. Maybe in times of severe persecution they develop signs that would conceal where the brethren are hiding or meeting but generally Christians rely on the Holy Spirit to confirm and validate the Christ in someone else. And it has nothing to do with saying the "right words", repeating predefined phrases, or wearing certain jewelry or clothing or having any kind of hand signs or gestures.

Without the "mind of Christ" we cannot hope to understand the things of God or "know the Lord".

The preaching of the good news has never been a matter of persuading someone through the process of reasoning (Think Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands a Verdict). Instead, it has always been a matter of simply declaring Christ's reality. This is a ridiculous proposition that will only leave the messenger in a totally helpless role. For people to believe him, nothing short of a miracle is always needed to translate one from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of His Dear Son (Col 1:13).

Many want to "add" to the "recipe" (Gospel) in order to bring up the believability level in people. So, today we have all kinds of rituals, formal liturgies, formulas (Institutional, scriptural or otherwise), miracles, miracle workers, etc, etc, because those in control know that people gravitate to these things. And those in control don't want to be left in a position where they have no control or influence. So they think if they can add some "weight" of believability to the message of the cross and the things of the Spirit then people will believe and their organization will grow. But, are they really being validated by God? Isn't that what we all want to know? Are we on the right road?

I think that kind of thinking (trying to make the Gospel more believable) has been responsible for many false conversions and the false conversions have made Christianity a laughingstock. But that's ok. It has always been this way. The truth has always been maligned.

You see our validation has to truly come from Christ alone but something interesting about people is that they want to have "a part in it", they want to make God's message better and more believable, because it is uncomfortable to them in it's present state. The flesh does not like being a "fool for Christ".

So with what I have said about "believability level" as a foundation you can understand then why there is such a big drive today to "prove" faith through science and all manner of books and a never ending supply of miraculous healing ministries. If only people will see this or read that, then surely they will believe. We just need more "proof" to show people. And of course all of this always makes sense to the natural mind. But, because of this there is an unending plethora of debates on Christianity by Christians, and I really wonder how much of it is profitable. I try to have conversations with others but catch myself in a debate sometimes and realize that it is probably not going to end well.

Anyway, I'm in danger of rambling,

All the best,
Rick

P.S. Just a short story for you.

Myself and others all meet in a home, or at Denny's, maybe the park for a barbecue or whatever, but sometimes we have "guests". People that want to visit. We don't feel intimidated or paranoid or have secret handshakes or code words. We just get to know them on a relational level. We want everyone to share their portion of Christ. And we look for Christ in them as we hope they are looking for a portion of Christ in us. One particular person met with us for about 6 months and everything seemed to be really cool, but then he started talking about the Sabbath being Saturday and we needed to honor the Sabbath, and do this and that etc, etc. Well, after praying about it and thinking about it for several weeks, the brothers in the fellowship talked to this person one day and just simply said to him, "If God is telling you to observe Saturday as the Sabbath, then we think you better obey Him". And that was that. No harsh words, no docrinal arguments, no strife. However, the individual stopped coming to meet with us. We have no leader except Christ, no man to tell everyone what to do and how to do it, no man that takes over our gatherings and regiments them. Our meetings are open meetings and everyone can participate. The children often do, because they sense freedom. But sometimes guests come who think we need some "organization". Well, suffice to say, the Lord has always taken care of us. But if we ever stop making Him the focus of our attention, and we stop giving Him the preeminence, we know that we are in trouble. Many of us have these past experiences of gravitating to men and buildings and organizations and many others things that are suppose to increase the "believability level" but never do. They only serve to take you away from Christ.

Do we think we have all the answers? No. We need Christ to validate and confirm us everyday and to tweak our spiritual GPS to make sure we stay on the "narrow road".

I don't know how much of your comments I will be able to respond to right now, I have a couple of things I need to handle, but I'll start by saying that I feel like I just got 'witnessed' to . I would welcome hearing you speak your mind and conviction in person, but I'm not really interested in having such a discussion over the internet...no offense, and I'm not being 'smart' or sharp by saying that...and it doesn't irritate me either. It's just that I prefer conversations like that in person, and your points that you make are somewhat assuming that I don't know these verses that you site or maybe I just need a reminding of them...again, no offense.

I chimed in on your post about 'mystery religions' only because I felt I could provide you with some helpful info/links to a question you were posting. I, by no means, was attempting to 'convert' you to a secret society or anything like that. One of the big differences between Christianity and the Brotherhoods is, the Brotherhoods never push their 'beliefs' on other people, unlike Christianity. You have to approach them.

A simple point, that I don't think many realize is, if it wasn't for all the "conspiracy theorists" and babbling clergymen who talk about the Illuminati, secret societies, etc. (and trust me on this one, they are clueless in what they 'think' they know about the core of most all modern day and ancient societies)...if it wasn't for all the noise they make, most people probably wouldn't even know about them. When was the last time you saw a Freemason on TV (unless being interviewed by someone) teasing you about not knowing his secret handshakes, passwords, etc.? The symbols are put out there for a good reason, and that is for those who want to know more about what they know to find them.

I had a phone call this morning from a friend who just became a 32 degree Freemason and he was just calling me to tell me how happy he was that he went through with it. His wife is a Rosicrucian...and a wonderful, caring person...one of my better friends. And I can promise you, they want ever try to tell you that you're choices or views are possibly in error...or worse yet, 'evil'.

When I have an opportunity to, I'm going to start a thread explaining what the various publicly known symbols and aspects of rituals represent. You might very well be surprised . For instance, and very basic, do you know why a Freemason initiate is dressed as he is during his first three degree ceremonies...

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_tqKGTClq--A/TK...eaven%2093.png

http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/2bc0ed60.png


He's dressed in similar attire and binding as a medieval heretic (many, of which, were Christians...just not 'orthodox') being led to the Inquisitor. They are being taught a symbolic lesson, from the past...kind of like a memorial, where you get to pay reverence and respect to all those forgotten and hardly ever talked about poor people.

[heb13-13]

Hey there Rick,

I agree that "woe" sounds bad, and that's how it should sound. But I see no reason to think that verse is speaking about the eternal conscious torment of the damned. Look at those to whom he's talking! His own people -

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight! 22 Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, Woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink, 23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe, And take away justice from the righteous man! 24 Therefore, as the fire devours the stubble, And the flame consumes the chaff, So their root will be as rottenness, And their blossom will ascend like dust; Because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. 25 Therefore the anger of the LORD is aroused against His people; He has stretched out His hand against them And stricken them, And the hills trembled. Their carcasses were as refuse in the midst of the streets. For all this His anger is not turned away, But His hand is stretched out still.

Also, I wonder if there are any real people to whom you would want to apply those verses. Do you personally know anyone you would classify that way? I'm not talking about people you see in the news or who wrote a book, but real, living people that you know around you.

Great chatting,

Richard

No, absolutely not. I cannot think of anyone I know. I am called to walk in love and be a "sheep led to the slaughter" as it were. To walk as Jesus walked and "give place to wrath". As I write, I know of no one that I would wish this on. Even the Lord wishes for all men to be saved. But, He keeps His promises. He kept His promise to Adam and Eve, didn't He?

Final judgment is the Lord's deal not man's. Only He can judge righteously.

Rick

[Charisma]

Hi Richard,

It's not that we apply those verses to people. There are people of whom those verses are a perfect description, to whom God is speaking directly, because while they have life there is time for repentance. Then He won't minister the prescribed punishment to them.

Do you personally know anyone you would classify that way?

I do.

[heb13-13]

I don't know how much of your comments I will be able to respond to right now, I have a couple of things I need to handle, but I'll start by saying that I feel like I just got 'witnessed' to . I would welcome hearing you speak your mind and conviction in person, but I'm not really interested in having such a discussion over the internet...no offense, and I'm not being 'smart' or sharp by saying that...and it doesn't irritate me either. It's just that I prefer conversations like that in person, and your points that you make are somewhat assuming that I don't know these verses that you site or maybe I just need a reminding of them...again, no offense.

Hi RC,

No offense taken and hope you are not offended either. I'll keep what you say in mind and try to be cognizant of "witnessing". I was not overtly trying to do that and since this is not really a "Christian" forum I guess I need to be careful in how I communicate.

Edit: My comment is not a criticism to the forum. I don't even know what a "Christian" forum is. To be more accurate, I think BWF is a public forum. Everyone is welcome.

I chimed in on your post about 'mystery religions' only because I felt I could provide you with some helpful info/links to a question you were posting. I, by no means, was attempting to 'convert' you to a secret society or anything like that. One of the big differences between Christianity and the Brotherhoods is, the Brotherhoods never push their 'beliefs' on other people, unlike Christianity. You have to approach them.

That's interesting, I did not know that. I am a minority where I work. Lots of Hindus and Muslims and I don't try to convert anyone, but I am open about who I am and who I believe in. Is that considered, "converting"?

A simple point, that I don't think many realize is, if it wasn't for all the "conspiracy theorists" and babbling clergymen who talk about the Illuminati, secret societies, etc. (and trust me on this one, they are clueless in what they 'think' they know about the core of most all modern day and ancient societies)...if it wasn't for all the noise they make, most people probably wouldn't even know about them. When was the last time you saw a Freemason on TV (unless being interviewed by someone) teasing you about not knowing his secret handshakes, passwords, etc.? The symbols are put out there for a good reason, and that is for those who want to know more about what they know to find them.

Yeah, the only way you could really find out about any "secret" society is if someone high up left and wrote an expose. I have not even researched if someone like that exists who was part of Freemasonry. Not interested really. No offense.

I had a phone call this morning from a friend who just became a 32 degree Freemason and he was just calling me to tell me how happy he was that he went through with it. His wife is a Rosicrucian...and a wonderful, caring person...one of my better friends. And I can promise you, they won't ever try to tell you that you're choices or views are possibly in error...or worse yet, 'evil'.

Yep, it's good to be a gentleman and polite. My friends and I are the same way. A lot is lost over the internet when people are just texting. It's easy to read things in and really we should be believing the best about each other, because our mode of communication is so limited.

When I have an opportunity to, I'm going to start a thread explaining what the various publicly known symbols and aspects of rituals represent. You might very well be surprised . For instance, and very basic, do you know why a Freemason initiate is dressed as he is during his first three degree ceremonies...

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_tqKGTClq--A/TK... Heaven 93.png

http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/2bc0ed60.png


He's dressed in similar attire and binding as a medieval heretic (many, of which, were Christians...just not 'orthodox') being led to the Inquisitor. They are being taught a symbolic lesson, from the past...kind of like a memorial, where you get to pay reverence and respect to all those forgotten and hardly ever talked about poor people.

Thanks again for the info. I did not know that about a Freemason Initiate.

Talk to you again, later,
Rick

[heb13-13]

Hey there Rick,

I agree that "woe" sounds bad, and that's how it should sound. But I see no reason to think that verse is speaking about the eternal conscious torment of the damned. Look at those to whom he's talking! His own people -

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight! 22 Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, Woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink, 23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe, And take away justice from the righteous man! 24 Therefore, as the fire devours the stubble, And the flame consumes the chaff, So their root will be as rottenness, And their blossom will ascend like dust; Because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. 25 Therefore the anger of the LORD is aroused against His people; He has stretched out His hand against them And stricken them, And the hills trembled. Their carcasses were as refuse in the midst of the streets. For all this His anger is not turned away, But His hand is stretched out still.

Also, I wonder if there are any real people to whom you would want to apply those verses. Do you personally know anyone you would classify that way? I'm not talking about people you see in the news or who wrote a book, but real, living people that you know around you.

Great chatting,

Richard

Hi Richard,

I actually do know some people that fit Isaiah 5:20 description. I could not think of any earlier but upon further reflection I can.

Rick

[RC Christian]

Hi RC,

No offense taken and hope you are not offended either. I'll keep what you say in mind and try to be cognizant of "witnessing". I was not overtly trying to do that and since this is not really a "Christian" forum I guess I need to be careful in how I communicate.



That's interesting, I did not know that. I am a minority where I work. Lots of Hindus and Muslims and I don't try to convert anyone, but I am open about who I am and who I believe in. Is that considered, "converting"?



Yeah, the only way you could really find out about any "secret" society is if someone high up left and wrote an expose. I have not even researched if someone like that exists who was part of Freemasonry. Not interested really. No offense.



Yep, it's good to be a gentleman and polite. My friends and I are the same way. A lot is lost over the internet when people are just texting. It's easy to read things in and really we should be believing the best about each other, because our mode of communication is so limited.



Thanks again for the info. I did not know that about a Freemason initiate.

Talk to you again, later,
Rick

Thanks for the courtesy back. Sorry if I came off too heavy on the "converting" comment. It's just that when anyone starts quoting scriptures to me about their view of things...and I've been very guilty of the same in the past...my "convert alert" goes up. I actually do like hearing and discussing people's theological views...it's just a lot easier in person.

Chime in on any of my post you want to. I appreciate the communication opportunity.