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  1. #1
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    Encryptions within the Original 1611 King James Version of the Bible

    The following is an introductory discussion on the, somewhat well-known, encryption (or code...puzzle...call it what you will) of the word "Shake-spear", being placed in Psalm 46.

    I own a photographic facsimile edition of the Original 1611 King James Bible, purchased from the following website:

    http://www.greatsite.com/facsimile-r...ames-1611.html

    To understand how the encryptions, that I will be referring to, work, one will need to be utilizing a similar type of reproduction, unless of course, you're fortunate enough to own or have access to, one of the 'actual' original 1611 copies, which sell for $50K-$400K.

    The claims that many have made, vary from Shakespeare being one of the 40-55 compilers/editors utilized in creating the 1611 King James Bible, to Francis Bacon (which some give claim to writing part, if not all, of Shakespeare's works) and several other theories are floating around as to who all had their hands in putting together this most beautiful work. For references on Francis Bacon being the alleged writer of the Shakespearean pieces and his development and usage of various ciphers, one can refer to the following links:

    (Please note that I'm not attempting to yield credibility to any of these websites or the claims that they make. I'm only linking them for those who are unaware of the theories (true or false) about the Bacon/Shakespeare theories.)

    http://www.sirbacon.org/Mather_KJV/Bacon_KJV.html

    http://www.sirbacon.org/links/evidence.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon's_cipher

    http://www.fbrt.org.uk/pages/essays/essay-ciphers.html

    http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/secret...scrucians.html

    http://www.ziplink.net/users/entropy/kj1.pdf (I found this one to be rather interesting, with an attempt given to perform some rudimentary probabilistic calculations included)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv7qJHE0TlU (...and for those who would prefer to see and have explained the "shake-speare" occurrence) [follow link to part 2 on same face-page]

    So, again, just some basic information for those not familiar with the ideologies about the 46th Psalm and "Shake-speare". I think it is important to note that we historically do not have an accepted birthday for William Shakespeare. Some of the links above give various birth dates, however, they are mistaking his recorded Christian Baptismal date of April 26, 1564 for that date (A quick reference, among many, on that would be in Wikipedia at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Shakespeare ) . Interesting enough, that would lend 47 years from baptism until 1611, with most scholars agreeing that the final version of the 1611 King James was completed and delivered to King James in 1610, and then "published" within the year...giving 46 years between the first known date of Shakespeare's life (his Christian Baptism) and the completion of the KJV.

    Now for what I consider to be of more interest. The following "finds" were done by others and are available on the internet, but I would encourage anyone who is interested in this, to do the proof for themselves, just as I did. A very nice and inexpensive copy of the Original 1611 KJV by Zondervan Bibles can be found on Amazon for $7.30 + shipping at http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Bible-161...1458467&sr=1-4. This is an actual page by page facsimile of the original from The Bible Museum in Goodyear, AZ (where I received my larger version). Interesting enough, Zondervan Bibles cut the Apocrypha out of this version...for heaven's sake! The Apocrypha is still in the versions you can order directly from www.greatsite.com.

    Here they are:

    1) Starting at the last chapter in the Bible, Revelation, chp. 22, count this chapter as "chapter #1" and begin counting backwards until you come to Psalm 46 (as your last 'chapter' count). Please note that this method involves counting each Psalm as a chapter, and books like Jude, which are not broken down as chapters, are counted as 1 chapter...not a far stretch of the imagination). You will find that Psalm 46 is the 666th chapter from the end of the KJV...interesting. (The Apocrypha is not utilized in this count...for possible various reasons that could be discussed later.)

    2) What I find even more interesting is, that if you count every page of printed text (again, this only works in the original version...where it was intentionally created, I strongly believe), starting with the first page on the inside right side of the original, which is the beautiful Title Page (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-page-1611.jpg). The back side of the Title Page is blank...no text. We then go through the genealogies, the almanacs, etc. and then eventually come to Genesis, Chapter 1. There is only one other blank page in the entire Original KJV...found right before Psalm 1...no where else in the Original KJV was there placed another, free-standing blank page, not even to divide the Old Testament from the Apocrypha, or the Apocrypha from the New Testament. Now, as we count the pages of printed text, starting with the Title Page as page #1 and omitting the 2 blank pages just mentioned, and eventually come to the 666th page...low and behold...we land on Psalm 46...EXACTLY!

    I encourage everyone who might find this interesting, if they knew it was true, to order a copy off of Amazon and prove it to themselves, just like I did. The cool thing is, the Zondervan version on Amazon has already removed the Apocrypha for you, so the chapter count just became simple... http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.png

    Again, everything I just posted here is no original work on my part...it's throughout the internet. But the 3rd and final point that I am about to type, is something that I came across based on a hypothesis which I will explain in my next post, where I will elaborate on the significance of how this encryption was placed in the "Authorized Version".

    3) [Continued...see my next post in this thread]
    Facing the East,
    Frater Rosae Crucis



    "It is only by the exercise of Reason, that man can discover God."
    ~ Thomas Paine

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by RC Christian View Post
    Now for what I consider to be of more interest. The following "finds" were done by others and are available on the internet, but I would encourage anyone who is interested in this, to do the proof for themselves, just as I did. A very nice and inexpensive copy of the Original 1611 KJV by Zondervan Bibles can be found on Amazon for $7.30 + shipping at http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Bible-161...1458467&sr=1-4. This is an actual page by page facsimile of the original from The Bible Museum in Goodyear, AZ (where I received my larger version). Interesting enough, Zondervan Bibles cut the Apocrypha out of this version...for heaven's sake! The Apocrypha is still in the versions you can order directly from www.greatsite.com.

    Here they are:

    1) Starting at the last chapter in the Bible, Revelation, chp. 22, count this chapter as "chapter #1" and begin counting backwards until you come to Psalm 46 (as your last 'chapter' count). Please note that this method involves counting each Psalm as a chapter, and books like Jude, which are not broken down as chapters, are counted as 1 chapter...not a far stretch of the imagination). You will find that Psalm 46 is the 666th chapter from the end of the KJV...interesting. (The Apocrypha is not utilized in this count...for possible various reasons that could be discussed later.)

    2) What I find even more interesting is, that if you count every page of printed text (again, this only works in the original version...where it was intentionally created, I strongly believe), starting with the first page on the inside right side of the original, which is the beautiful Title Page (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-page-1611.jpg). The back side of the Title Page is blank...no text. We then go through the genealogies, the almanacs, etc. and then eventually come to Genesis, Chapter 1. There is only one other blank page in the entire Original KJV...found right before Psalm 1...no where else in the Original KJV was there placed another, free-standing blank page, not even to divide the Old Testament from the Apocrypha, or the Apocrypha from the New Testament. Now, as we count the pages of printed text, starting with the Title Page as page #1 and omitting the 2 blank pages just mentioned, and eventually come to the 666th page...low and behold...we land on Psalm 46...EXACTLY!

    I encourage everyone who might find this interesting, if they knew it was true, to order a copy off of Amazon and prove it to themselves, just like I did. The cool thing is, the Zondervan version on Amazon has already removed the Apocrypha for you, so the chapter count just became simple... http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.png

    Again, everything I just posted here is no original work on my part...it's throughout the internet. But the 3rd and final point that I am about to type, is something that I came across based on a hypothesis which I will explain in my next post, where I will elaborate on the significance of how this encryption was placed in the "Authorized Version".

    3) [Continued...see my next post in this thread]
    1) I can confirm that Psalm 46 is the 666th chapter from the end of the KJV.

    2) I can't confirm this because I don't have the text.

    But my question is this: If these two facts were intentionally designed into the text, what was their purpose? Anyone can do things like this if they set their mind to it. Why bother? What do you suppose it means?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #3
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    A possible reason for the encryption...

    I don't know that I would go as far as saying that anyone could do something like this. On the second point of interest...the 666 page count...this would indeed take a lot of planning. There's roughly 78 pages (counting the Title Page) that lead up to the first page of Genesis. I assume that the encryptor would have the page count of the 588 pages of actual Biblical text that leads up to Psalm 46 in front of him, and then he would have to plan to fill up the additional 78 pages to get his count correct. By no means impossible, but not a simple task. Eleven of those 78 pages are entitled "The Translators to the Readers". I suspect this is the section that was used to 'fill the void' in reaching the proper page count. The other 'extra' pages are filled with a general zodiacal almanac, including informing the reader of how many days are in each month verses how many days 'the moon has' that month, what sign the sun and other planets take up residence and influence in, etc...astrology for the layman. Then we move on to "How to find Easter"...kind of a cool matrix. Next, there's a section on what prayers and Psalms to read on certain day. And finally, we are shown the famous geneology trees, starting with God, Adam, and Eve, and some 34 pages later..."Christ". This is the section that has random Masonic/ Rosicrucian handshakes built into what is otherwise connecting lines...very strange. The handshakes are the same as the most common one found over the internet...with the thumb gripping around the other person's knuckle.

    I'll try to locate a website that I found on-line once that was a page-by-page photo gallery of the 1611. If someone is so inclined, and doesn't feel like dropping the $7.30 at Amazon for a copy of the 400th Year Anniversary version, they could, page by page, count the 666 pages. If nothing else, the link will show you the beautiful artwork that went into several pages of this work. I would definitely recommend looking at the astrology section and the Masonic/Rosicrucian handshakes in the geneologies.

    I do have my own opinion of "why" someone would painstakenly take the time to encrypt something like this, but I'll need to make my point #3 that was alluded to in my previous post, first...just to make sure I have all the evidence on the table...and I plan on doing so after I help my daughter with her Algebra and me and the wife get the kids to bed.
    Facing the East,
    Frater Rosae Crucis



    "It is only by the exercise of Reason, that man can discover God."
    ~ Thomas Paine

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by RC Christian View Post
    I don't know that I would go as far as saying that anyone could do something like this. On the second point of interest...the 666 page count...this would indeed take a lot of planning. There's roughly 78 pages (counting the Title Page) that lead up to the first page of Genesis. I assume that the encryptor would have the page count of the 588 pages of actual Biblical text that leads up to Psalm 46 in front of him, and then he would have to plan to fill up the additional 78 pages to get his count correct. By no means impossible, but not a simple task. Eleven of those 78 pages are entitled "The Translators to the Readers". I suspect this is the section that was used to 'fill the void' in reaching the proper page count. The other 'extra' pages are filled with a general zodiacal almanac, including informing the reader of how many days are in each month verses how many days 'the moon has' that month, what sign the sun and other planets take up residence and influence in, etc...astrology for the layman. Then we move on to "How to find Easter"...kind of a cool matrix. Next, there's a section on what prayers and Psalms to read on certain day. And finally, we are shown the famous geneology trees, starting with God, Adam, and Eve, and some 34 pages later..."Christ". This is the section that has random Masonic/ Rosicrucian handshakes built into what is otherwise connecting lines...very strange. The handshakes are the same as the most common one found over the internet...with the thumb gripping around the other person's knuckle.

    I'll try to locate a website that I found on-line once that was a page-by-page photo gallery of the 1611. If someone is so inclined, and doesn't feel like dropping the $7.30 at Amazon for a copy of the 400th Year Anniversary version, they could, page by page, count the 666 pages. If nothing else, the link will show you the beautiful artwork that went into several pages of this work. I would definitely recommend looking at the astrology section and the Masonic/Rosicrucian handshakes in the geneologies.

    I do have my own opinion of "why" someone would painstakenly take the time to encrypt something like this, but I'll need to make my point #3 that was alluded to in my previous post, first...just to make sure I have all the evidence on the table...and I plan on doing so after I help my daughter with her Algebra and me and the wife get the kids to bed.
    I'm a little confused on your thesis, since you haven't actually stated it yet. But I thought you had said that these patterns were deliberately designed, and I got the impression that you meant deliberately designed by some humans who knew what they were doing.

    The reason I said it could be done was because showed only two "coincidences" without showing any rhyme nor reason for them and there were endless other possibilities. Why 666 pages? Why 666 chapters? Why not 666 letters from some other verse, or 777 chapters? Why Shakespeare? Why not King James? All these things you just present as if their significance should be self-evident. But there is an infinity of possible number/word/person combinations you could have chosen to begin your presentation. So I can't see anything yet that could not be mere coincidence. The Bible is a very big book, how many possible connections could there be? How do we discern between chance and design when confronted with such claims? That's the real question.

    I look forward to your next point. Perhaps that will answer some of my questions.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #5
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    1611 KJV Encryptions

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I'm a little confused on your thesis, since you haven't actually stated it yet. But I thought you had said that these patterns were deliberately designed, and I got the impression that you meant deliberately designed by some humans who knew what they were doing.

    The reason I said it could be done was because showed only two "coincidences" without showing any rhyme nor reason for them and there were endless other possibilities. Why 666 pages? Why 666 chapters? Why not 666 letters from some other verse, or 777 chapters? Why Shakespeare? Why not King James? All these things you just present as if their significance should be self-evident. But there is an infinity of possible number/word/person combinations you could have chosen to begin your presentation. So I can't see anything yet that could not be mere coincidence. The Bible is a very big book, how many possible connections could there be? How do we discern between chance and design when confronted with such claims? That's the real question.

    I look forward to your next point. Perhaps that will answer some of my questions.

    Great chatting!

    Richard

    My view of the encryptions that I'm discussing, found within the 1611 KJV, is that they were deliberately and well-intentionally placed within the translation by one or possibly more of those who were in charge of the translating...more specifically the one or ones who were in charge of the "final" draft and version, not necessarily all or any of the general translators, whose numbers are estimated to be between 40-55 from all references I have been able to find on the net and in a couple of books. So, yes, "humans" would be an accurate description of the encryptors...not God, gods, spirits, aliens, etc. I, by no means, am attempting to make a point of "inspiration", divine intervention, etc.

    My opinion, or I suppose we could call it my thesis statement, is that whoever the 'editor-in-chief' was of the 1611 KJV, be it William Shakespeare, Francis Bacon, or a host of others which have been proposed and speculated over during the years, intentionally encoded, among other things, the "shake-spear" found in Psalm 46. Now the facts that I first presented, about "shake" being the 46th word from the start of Psalm 46 and "spear" being the 46 word from the end of Psalm 46, which I learned about years ago...I think the finding has made it's way into a few History Channel specials...never really impressed much on me. The most intriguing point of the whole thing to me was, "Who in the world found this and what were they looking for in the first place?" ...Why Psalm 46 and all this 46 counting??? What is the significance of it? Then I read where a few people had stated that Shakespeare was 46 years old in 1610, when the final version of the new work was completed...bear in mind it wasn't known in 1611 as the "1611" King James Bible...just as the "Authorized Version". When I learned of this point...Shakespeare being 46 years old when the version was finished...I thought that was 'slightly' interesting. So I did some research on it to verify it. There's no recorded date of Shakespeare's birth to be found. Someone this famous in, somewhat, recent history, with no available date or even year of birth...puzzling. But what we do know and is easily verifiable is Shakespeare's date of Christian Baptism...April 26, 1564. This is the date that lands us 46 years later for the completion of the final version of the new Bible. But still...so what? Could the previous be random chance...absolutely...and I figured it probably was.

    Several years later, I heard about the 666 chapter count backward landing you on Psalm 46...I did find that interesting primarily because I had heard of the first 46 stuff...actually saw it on TV...and now the "beastly" number showing up some way linked to it...now a little more interesting...but just interesting...not fascinating. Of course, I quickly and easily verified this fact. It was only a short time later when I read on the internet someone making the 666 page count claim leading up to Psalm 46. This time I was skeptical. The first could have been random coincidences, but we're starting to add additional factors to our probability equation at this point. I had to count the pages for my self. And I must say, I was impressed when I landed on Psalm 46 on the 666th page.

    This impressed me for several reasons. First and foremost, to me 666 has nothing to do with the end of the world, or a mark people will get, etc. Why? Because I believe the Bible is a collection of myths, allegories, and stories...on the surface. I believe what was important to most all of those who actually wrote these original texts was what we would simply call astrology...and maybe even magic. I do not believe there ever was an Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Solomon,..., Peter, Andrew, John, or Jesus (Just to be blunt about it.). There may have been an enlightened teacher of the day that inspired the allegorical creation of the Gospel "stories"...who knows. But what we do know, from archaeological digs and discoveries is that astrology was important to the Jews, Christians, Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, Sumerians, Egyptians, etc. And they all created great legends to embody their view of "heaven" and "gods"...the constellations and the 7 'known' planets, to include the sun and moon. With that said, to me...in my opinion...666 was a reference to the sum of the magic square of the sun...nothing more, nothing less. The first 7 magic squares have been linked to the 7 planets since the Babylonian times. I believe whoever the original "Hebrews" were, they had gathered all their knowledge of astrology from the Babylonians and possibly the Egyptians...however, I don't believe, and to my knowledge there is no evidence that the Egyptians ever had hoards of Hebrew slaves or that they ever lost a Pharaoh and thousands upon thousands of soldiers in a mass drowning. So, with that said, and of course there is much more that could be said about the veneration of the zodiac and planets, along with their believed magical influences, that's how I view the much revered and feared number 666.

    Secondly, the very reputation that 666 has carried throughout the ages is obvious to pretty much any Christian...and to mostly anyone who has been exposed to Christian theology. I did an experiment in my practice a couple of years ago. Over a 2 week period, I asked 220 different patients a simple question: "From the Bible, what one number stands out the most to you in its significance and importance...good, bad, or indifferently?" Out of 220 responses, I received 18 responses of "7", 13 responses of "12", 8 responses of "3", 8 responses of "144,000" and 173 responses of "666". Granted, I live in the 'Bible Belt' and most everyone in this area is a Southern Baptist or other fundamentalist, and the thought of the rapture and Armageddon are somewhat 'present-minded' with many around here, but I believe that 666 has always carried a lot of mystique to it...at least to those who have heard or read the cryptic passage of Rev. 13:18. So............... if I was a clever and witty 'editor-in-chief'...who had (and obviously this is all assumption on my part) what we might call 'initiated knowledge' ...knowledge that the "secret societies" are said to possess of the real meaning of the Bible...allegorical tales, underlying gematria, astrology, myths, legends, etc. and I wanted to leave a witty, encrypted 'pun' behind, hopefully to be discovered one day...maybe even as a pointer or clue as to what the Bible really is and how those who find my encryption will know not to take all this stuff written in the Bible and enforced on the common man to control his thoughts, actions, and money...too seriously...actually, not seriously, I can't think of a better number to 'play around' with than the horrible, evil, and damning number of 666... which is actually nothing more than the sum of the magic square of the sun.

    And finally, when I was doing all the page counting and stuff...pondering the plausibility of this really being an encryption based on the magic square of the sun, I came up with another hypothesis to quickly test out. My assumption was, (and this is point #3 that I have yet to mention) if this is really about the magic square of the sun...a pun on it, or whatever you want to call it, then there should...or at least could be...the magic constant of the magic square of the sun encrypted in the Psalm. For those unfamiliar with magic squares, a simple Google search will give you more than you would ever want to know about them, but in general the order of the matrix is the number of rows or columns, each being equal, hence the "square". All the rows, columns, and diagonals must equal the same number, known as the "Magic Constant" ... when either the rows or columns are added up, they equal the "Magic Sum", which in the case of the magic square of the sun, is equal to 666. The magic constant of the sun square is equal to 111. So, to test my hypothesis that all this could be the editor's 'neat and amusing' pun, playing around with that ominous number 666...all pointing to "Shake-spear"...and why Shakespeare, I really don't know...I began with the word "shake" and counted 111 words..."spear"...each inclusive in the count, just as the 46 word count from top and bottom were inclusive of the words, and the 666 page and chapter counts were inclusive of the page and chapter, respectfully.

    Imagine that, the one most single verse in the Bible that tells us to count the number of a man's name..."Here is wisdom. Let he that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man's name: and his number is six hundred, three score and six." ...possibly pointing to the name "Shakespeare"...now that's someone with a sense of humor.

    There are several other "likely" encryptions in the 1611 KJV that I can go into at another time. One quick and neat one is as follows: The Hebrew word for "adversary" is Strong's Concordance #7854. This Hebrew word is found in the Bible approximately 23 times. The first 8 times it appears (Num 22:22, 32, I Sam 29:4, II Sam 19:22, I Kings 5:4, 11:4, 23, 25), it is translated as "adversary", except in Num 22:32, where the KJV renders it "to withstand". The 9th time it appears is in I Chronicles 21:1, where it is translated as "Satan"...a fairly notable character in the whole good vs evil story...and it continues to be translated "Satan" from that point forward. I Chronicles 21:1 is the 359th chapter in the "Authorized Version"...the gematria of "Satan"...hummm.

    What's important to understand is that none of the previous Bibles leading up to the 1611 KJV had I Chronicles, chp. 21, as the 359th chapter...most included or excluded different books, including the Geneva Bible, the Great Bible, Coverdale, Matthew, etc.

    Facing the East,
    Frater Rosae Crucis



    "It is only by the exercise of Reason, that man can discover God."
    ~ Thomas Paine

  6. #6
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    Fascinating post RC!

    But I think there is a "fly in the ointment." As it turns out, Psalm 46 was translated into English in the Geneva Bible about 51 years before the King James. The ordinal positions of the words are not exactly the same, but they are sufficiently close to show that the pattern was almost already in place long before Shakespeare or Bacon or whoever was on the scene in 1610. The Geneva Bible is available online. The King James follows it very closely. So this indicates to me that there was noone who delierately put this "encryptions" in the KJV in 1611. The pieces were already in place. Therefore, it it wasn't God or some other supernatural agent, I would strongly suspect it to be chance.
    Geneva (1560) KJV (1611)
    1 God
    2 is
    3 our
    4 hope
    5 and
    6 strength,
    7 and
    8 help
    9 in
    10 troubles,
    11 ready
    12 to
    13 be
    14 found.
    15 Therefore
    16 will
    17 not
    18 we
    19 fear,
    20 though
    21 the
    22 earth
    23 be
    24 moved,
    25 and
    26 though
    27 the
    28 mountains
    29 fall
    30 into
    31 the
    32 midst
    33 of
    34 the
    35 sea.
    36 Though
    37 the
    38 waters
    39 thereof
    40 rage
    41 and
    42 be
    43 troubled,
    44 and
    45 the
    46 mountains
    47 shake
    48 at
    49 the
    50 surges
    51 of
    52 the
    53 same.
    54 Selah,
    55 Yet
    56 there
    57 is
    58 a
    59 River,
    60 whose
    61 streams
    62 shall
    63 make
    64 glad
    65 the
    66 city
    67 of
    68 God:
    69 even
    70 the
    71 Sanctuary
    72 of
    73 the
    74 Tabernacles
    75 of
    76 the
    77 most
    78 High.
    79 God
    80 is
    81 in
    82 the
    83 midst
    84 of
    85 it:
    86 therefore
    87 shall
    88 it
    89 not
    90 be
    91 moved:
    92 God
    93 shall
    94 help
    95 it
    96 very
    97 early.
    98 When
    99 the
    100 nations
    101 raged,
    102 and
    103 the
    104 kingdoms
    105 were
    106 moved,
    107 God
    108 thundered,
    109 and
    110 the
    111 earth
    112 melted.
    113 The
    114 Lord
    115 of
    116 hosts
    117 is
    118 with
    119 us:
    120 the
    121 God
    122 of
    123 Jacob
    124 is
    125 our
    126 refuge.
    127 Selah.
    128 Come,
    129 and
    130 behold
    131 the
    132 works
    133 of
    134 the
    135 Lord,
    136 what
    137 desolations
    138 he
    139 hath
    140 made
    141 in
    142 the
    143 earth.
    144 He
    145 maketh
    146 wars
    147 to
    148 cease
    149 unto
    150 the
    151 ends
    152 of
    153 the
    154 world:
    155 he
    156 breaketh
    157 the
    158 bow
    159 and
    160 cutteth
    161 the
    162 spear,
    163 and
    164 burneth
    165 the
    166 chariots
    167 with
    168 fire.
    169 Be
    170 still
    171 and
    172 know
    173 that
    174 I
    175 am
    176 God:
    177 I
    178 will
    179 be
    180 exalted
    181 among
    182 the
    183 heathen,
    184 and
    185 I
    186 will
    187 be
    188 exalted
    189 in
    190 the
    191 earth.
    192 The
    193 Lord
    194 of
    195 hosts
    196 is
    197 with
    198 us:
    199 the
    200 God
    201 of
    202 Jacob
    203 is
    204 our
    205 refuge.
    206 Selah.
    1 God
    2 is
    3 our
    4 refuge
    5 and
    6 strength,
    7 a
    8 very
    9 present
    10 help
    11 in
    12 trouble.
    13 Therefore
    14 will
    15 not
    16 we
    17 fear,
    18 though
    19 the
    20 earth
    21 be
    22 removed,
    23 and
    24 though
    25 the
    26 mountains
    27 be
    28 carried
    29 into
    30 the
    31 midst
    32 of
    33 the
    34 sea;
    35 Though
    36 the
    37 waters
    38 thereof
    39 roar
    40 and
    41 be
    42 troubled,
    43 though
    44 the
    45 mountains
    46 shake
    47 with
    48 the
    49 swelling
    50 thereof.
    51 Selah.
    52 There
    53 is
    54 a
    55 river,
    56 the
    57 streams
    58 whereof
    59 shall
    60 make
    61 glad
    62 the
    63 city
    64 of
    65 God,
    66 the
    67 holy
    68 place
    69 of
    70 the
    71 tabernacles
    72 of
    73 the
    74 most
    75 High.
    76 God
    77 is
    78 in
    79 the
    80 midst
    81 of
    82 her;
    83 she
    84 shall
    85 not
    86 be
    87 moved:
    88 God
    89 shall
    90 help
    91 her,
    92 and
    93 that
    94 right
    95 early.
    96 The
    97 heathen
    98 raged,
    99 the
    100 kingdoms
    101 were
    102 moved:
    103 he
    104 uttered
    105 his
    106 voice,
    107 the
    108 earth
    109 melted.
    110 The
    111 LORD
    112 of
    113 hosts
    114 is
    115 with
    116 us;
    117 the
    118 God
    119 of
    120 Jacob
    121 is
    122 our
    123 refuge.
    124 Selah.
    125 Come,
    126 behold
    127 the
    128 works
    129 of
    130 the
    131 LORD,
    132 what
    133 desolations
    134 he
    135 hath
    136 made
    137 in
    138 the
    139 earth.
    140 He
    141 maketh
    142 wars
    143 to
    144 cease
    145 unto
    146 the
    147 end
    148 of
    149 the
    150 earth;
    151 he
    152 breaketh
    153 the
    154 bow,
    155 and
    156 cutteth
    157 the
    158 spear
    159 in
    160 sunder;
    161 he
    162 burneth
    163 the
    164 chariot
    165 in
    166 the
    167 fire.
    168 Be
    169 still,
    170 and
    171 know
    172 that
    173 I
    174 am
    175 God:
    176 I
    177 will
    178 be
    179 exalted
    180 among
    181 the
    182 heathen,
    183 I
    184 will
    185 be
    186 exalted
    187 in
    188 the
    189 earth.
    190 The
    191 LORD
    192 of
    193 hosts
    194 is
    195 with
    196 us;
    197 the
    198 God
    199 of
    200 Jacob
    201 is
    202 our
    203 refuge.
    204 Selah.
    For those of you interested in how to process texts, here is the javascript html page I wrote to list words with their ordinal positions. You can just run it on your destop (save it as html).

    Code:
    <html>
    <script type="text/javascript">
    function countem(){
       var elem = document.getElementById("txt");
       var ar = elem.value.split(" ");
       var lst = "";
       var cnt = 1;
       for (i=0;i<ar.length;i++) {
        if ( isNaN(ar[i].toString()) ) {
            lst += "<br />" + cnt.toString() + " " + ar[i].toString();
               cnt++;
        }
    }
     
    document.getElementById('lulu').innerHTML=lst;
    }
    </script>
    <body>
    
    <input id="txt" name="countbox" type="text">
    <Input id="doit" name="doit" type="submit" onclick="countem()"> 
    
    <div id="lulu">
    This is where lst will go
    </div> 
    </body>
    </html>
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    258

    1611 KJV Encryptions

    Thanks for the time and effort in replying to my post, Richard. And thank you for the excellent insight into how "shake-spear" was present in the Geneva version of Psalm 46, at a similar counting space of 47 words down and 44 words up (note that the count doesn't include the 3 "Selah's" found in the Psalm...for whatever reason, I'm not sure; I didn't 'discover' the Psalm 46 Code). Also, the counting backward from the end of the Geneva Bible to Psalm 46 should achieve the 666 chapter count, the number equal to the Magic Sum of the Magic Square of the Sun. The forward page count from the Title Page of the Geneva Bible will most likely not yield 666 pages upto Psalm 46, but again, this was not my finding, but someone else's. The count between, and inclusive of "shake" and "spear", in the Geneva Bible is 114 words, not the 111 which is the Magic Constant of the Magic Square of the Sun. So...how could Shakespeare even come close to fitting into an encryption in the 1611 KJV...especially, as you pointed out, the same English words were already present in other translations. Honestly, I don't know. I do believe that it would have been the makings of a great opportunity for some clever editor to recognize the "shake" and "spear" in the verse, and to recognize the 666 chapter count backward (if they were into cryptic stuff), and then shuffle a few words around, make the forward page count work, and create something very clever that plays off of the one verse in the Bible that tells us to count the number of a man's name...as a pun/riddle...whatever. While working in the 111 count between words to acknowledge to whoever found the encryption, that the 666 was about the Magic Square of the Sun...not an actual death mark that some people will get one day.

    To me, this one type of "coincidence"...actually, I guess this would be called "multiple coincidences"...wouldn't seem as potentially intentional, if I had no reason to believe that other types of encrypting may be going on in the 1611 KJV. For instance, if it wasn't for how "adversary" first becomes "Satan" in I Chron. 21:1...and remains Satan throughout...with this occurring at the 359th chapter, corresponding with the gematria of Satan. Another interesting finding like this occurs in Luke, Chp. 3. To appreciate this one, I think it's important to know that the "extremes" have supposedly been utilized over the ages as 'pointers' for the recognition of those that were 'learned', that a cipher/encryption was present. I was told this by a friend who is a Freemason and he expressed that that was a very important premise to understand. By "extremes", I'm referring to things like: the biggest, the smallest, the youngest, the oldest, the first, the last, etc. Back to Luke, Chapter 3: Here we find one of the 2 different genealogies found in the New Testament on Jesus ancestors. To show an example of an"extreme" pointer being used, we note that in Luke 3:37 we find "Mathusala" listed. I'm sure we all know that the Bible records Mathusala as being the oldest human whoever lived (although, I think that those guys that Jesus was talking to when he said, "there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the Kingdom of God" officially now have Mathusala beat by over 1000 years. The Bible calculates Mathusala's age to be 969 years old. 969 is the 17th tetrahedral number, for anyone interested. Start with Luke Chpt. 3, verse 1, word 1 and "painstakingly" count until you reach the 969th word in the 1611 KJV...Mathusala.

    I'll continue to add more to this thread, but I do sincerely thank Richard for what he has pointed out, and I am still turning it in my mind.
    Facing the East,
    Frater Rosae Crucis



    "It is only by the exercise of Reason, that man can discover God."
    ~ Thomas Paine

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    13,881
    Quote Originally Posted by RC Christian View Post
    The Bible calculates Mathusala's age to be 969 years old. 969 is the 17th tetrahedral number, for anyone interested. Start with Luke Chpt. 3, verse 1, word 1 and "painstakingly" count until you reach the 969th word in the 1611 KJV...Mathusala.
    Wasn't "painstaking" at all! I had my micro-munks do it for me.

    It is a striking little "coincidence." Who do you supposed first discovered this? I imagine it must have been very painstaking for them if they did it before computers. I present the evidence here so folks can confirm it for themselves. I can also confirm that "Satan" first occurs in chapter 359, corresponding to the value of that word. But these are just two "hits" out of a book consisting of 31,102 verses, so it is a legitimate question to ask how many such "hits" we should expect from random chance. As it stands, I don't see how "cherry picking" a few examples here or there could prove anything. But I have an open mind and I will continue to check out the evidence you provide.

    1 Now
    2 in
    3 the
    4 fifteenth
    5 year
    6 of
    7 the
    8 reign
    9 of
    10 Tiberius
    11 Caesar,
    12 Pontius
    13 Pilate
    14 being
    15 governor
    16 of
    17 Judaea,
    18 and
    19 Herod
    20 being
    21 tetrarch
    22 of
    23 Galilee,
    24 and
    25 his
    26 brother
    27 Philip
    28 tetrarch
    29 of
    30 Ituraea
    31 and
    32 of
    33 the
    34 region
    35 of
    36 Trachonitis,
    37 and
    38 Lysanias
    39 the
    40 tetrarch
    41 of
    42 Abilene,
    43 Annas
    44 and
    45 Caiaphas
    46 being
    47 the
    48 high
    49 priests,
    50 the
    51 word
    52 of
    53 God
    54 came
    55 unto
    56 John
    57 the
    58 son
    59 of
    60 Zacharias
    61 in
    62 the
    63 wilderness.
    64 And
    65 he
    66 came
    67 into
    68 all
    69 the
    70 country
    71 about
    72 Jordan,
    73 preaching
    74 the
    75 baptism
    76 of
    77 repentance
    78 for
    79 the
    80 remission
    81 of
    82 sins;
    83 As
    84 it
    85 is
    86 written
    87 in
    88 the
    89 book
    90 of
    91 the
    92 words
    93 of
    94 Esaias
    95 the
    96 prophet,
    97 saying,
    98 The
    99 voice
    100 of
    101 one
    102 crying
    103 in
    104 the
    105 wilderness,
    106 Prepare
    107 ye
    108 the
    109 way
    110 of
    111 the
    112 Lord,
    113 make
    114 his
    115 paths
    116 straight.
    117 Every
    118 valley
    119 shall
    120 be
    121 filled,
    122 and
    123 every
    124 mountain
    125 and
    126 hill
    127 shall
    128 be
    129 brought
    130 low;
    131 and
    132 the
    133 crooked
    134 shall
    135 be
    136 made
    137 straight,
    138 and
    139 the
    140 rough
    141 ways
    142 shall
    143 be
    144 made
    145 smooth;
    146 And
    147 all
    148 flesh
    149 shall
    150 see
    151 the
    152 salvation
    153 of
    154 God.
    155 7 Then
    156 said
    157 he
    158 to
    159 the
    160 multitude
    161 that
    162 came
    163 forth
    164 to
    165 be
    166 baptized
    167 of
    168 him,
    169 O
    170 generation
    171 of
    172 vipers,
    173 who
    174 hath
    175 warned
    176 you
    177 to
    178 flee
    179 from
    180 the
    181 wrath
    182 to
    183 come?
    184 Bring
    185 forth
    186 therefore
    187 fruits
    188 worthy
    189 of
    190 repentance,
    191 and
    192 begin
    193 not
    194 to
    195 say
    196 within
    197 yourselves,
    198 We
    199 have
    200 Abraham
    201 to
    202 our
    203 father:
    204 for
    205 I
    206 say
    207 unto
    208 you,
    209 That
    210 God
    211 is
    212 able
    213 of
    214 these
    215 stones
    216 to
    217 raise
    218 up
    219 children
    220 unto
    221 Abraham.
    222 And
    223 now
    224 also
    225 the
    226 axe
    227 is
    228 laid
    229 unto
    230 the
    231 root
    232 of
    233 the
    234 trees:
    235 every
    236 tree
    237 therefore
    238 which
    239 bringeth
    240 not
    241 forth
    242 good
    243 fruit
    244 is
    245 hewn
    246 down,
    247 and
    248 cast
    249 into
    250 the
    251 fire.
    252 10 And
    253 the
    254 people
    255 asked
    256 him,
    257 saying,
    258 What
    259 shall
    260 we
    261 do
    262 then?
    263 He
    264 answereth
    265 and
    266 saith
    267 unto
    268 them,
    269 He
    270 that
    271 hath
    272 two
    273 coats,
    274 let
    275 him
    276 impart
    277 to
    278 him
    279 that
    280 hath
    281 none;
    282 and
    283 he
    284 that
    285 hath
    286 meat,
    287 let
    288 him
    289 do
    290 likewise.
    291 Then
    292 came
    293 also
    294 publicans
    295 to
    296 be
    297 baptized,
    298 and
    299 said
    300 unto
    301 him,
    302 Master,
    303 what
    304 shall
    305 we
    306 do?
    307 And
    308 he
    309 said
    310 unto
    311 them,
    312 Exact
    313 no
    314 more
    315 than
    316 that
    317 which
    318 is
    319 appointed
    320 you.
    321 And
    322 the
    323 soldiers
    324 likewise
    325 demanded
    326 of
    327 him,
    328 saying,
    329 And
    330 what
    331 shall
    332 we
    333 do?
    334 And
    335 he
    336 said
    337 unto
    338 them,
    339 Do
    340 violence
    341 to
    342 no
    343 man,
    344 neither
    345 accuse
    346 any
    347 falsely;
    348 and
    349 be
    350 content
    351 with
    352 your
    353 wages.
    354 15 And
    355 as
    356 the
    357 people
    358 were
    359 in
    360 expectation,
    361 and
    362 all
    363 men
    364 mused
    365 in
    366 their
    367 hearts
    368 of
    369 John,
    370 whether
    371 he
    372 were
    373 the
    374 Christ,
    375 or
    376 not;
    377 John
    378 answered,
    379 saying
    380 unto
    381 them
    382 all,
    383 I
    384 indeed
    385 baptize
    386 you
    387 with
    388 water;
    389 but
    390 one
    391 mightier
    392 than
    393 I
    394 cometh,
    395 the
    396 latchet
    397 of
    398 whose
    399 shoes
    400 I
    401 am
    402 not
    403 worthy
    404 to
    405 unloose:
    406 he
    407 shall
    408 baptize
    409 you
    410 with
    411 the
    412 Holy
    413 Ghost
    414 and
    415 with
    416 fire:
    417 Whose
    418 fan
    419 is
    420 in
    421 his
    422 hand,
    423 and
    424 he
    425 will
    426 throughly
    427 purge
    428 his
    429 floor,
    430 and
    431 will
    432 gather
    433 the
    434 wheat
    435 into
    436 his
    437 garner;
    438 but
    439 the
    440 chaff
    441 he
    442 will
    443 burn
    444 with
    445 fire
    446 unquenchable.
    447 18 And
    448 many
    449 other
    450 things
    451 in
    452 his
    453 exhortation
    454 preached
    455 he
    456 unto
    457 the
    458 people.
    459 But
    460 Herod
    461 the
    462 tetrarch,
    463 being
    464 reproved
    465 by
    466 him
    467 for
    468 Herodias
    469 his
    470 brother
    471 Philip's
    472 wife,
    473 and
    474 for
    475 all
    476 the
    477 evils
    478 which
    479 Herod
    480 had
    481 done,
    482 Added
    483 yet
    484 this
    485 above
    486 all,
    487 that
    488 he
    489 shut
    490 up
    491 John
    492 in
    493 prison.
    494 21 Now
    495 when
    496 all
    497 the
    498 people
    499 were
    500 baptized,
    501 it
    502 came
    503 to
    504 pass,
    505 that
    506 Jesus
    507 also
    508 being
    509 baptized,
    510 and
    511 praying,
    512 the
    513 heaven
    514 was
    515 opened,
    516 And
    517 the
    518 Holy
    519 Ghost
    520 descended
    521 in
    522 a
    523 bodily
    524 shape
    525 like
    526 a
    527 dove
    528 upon
    529 him,
    530 and
    531 a
    532 voice
    533 came
    534 from
    535 heaven,
    536 which
    537 said,
    538 Thou
    539 art
    540 my
    541 beloved
    542 Son;
    543 in
    544 thee
    545 I
    546 am
    547 well
    548 pleased.
    549 23 And
    550 Jesus
    551 himself
    552 began
    553 to
    554 be
    555 about
    556 thirty
    557 years
    558 of
    559 age,
    560 being
    561 (as
    562 was
    563 supposed)
    564 the
    565 son
    566 of
    567 Joseph,
    568 which
    569 was
    570 the
    571 son
    572 of
    573 Heli,
    574 Which
    575 was
    576 the
    577 son
    578 of
    579 Matthat,
    580 which
    581 was
    582 the
    583 son
    584 of
    585 Levi,
    586 which
    587 was
    588 the
    589 son
    590 of
    591 Melchi,
    592 which
    593 was
    594 the
    595 son
    596 of
    597 Janna,
    598 which
    599 was
    600 the
    601 son
    602 of
    603 Joseph,
    604 Which
    605 was
    606 the
    607 son
    608 of
    609 Mattathias,
    610 which
    611 was
    612 the
    613 son
    614 of
    615 Amos,
    616 which
    617 was
    618 the
    619 son
    620 of
    621 Naum,
    622 which
    623 was
    624 the
    625 son
    626 of
    627 Esli,
    628 which
    629 was
    630 the
    631 son
    632 of
    633 Nagge,
    634 Which
    635 was
    636 the
    637 son
    638 of
    639 Maath,
    640 which
    641 was
    642 the
    643 son
    644 of
    645 Mattathias,
    646 which
    647 was
    648 the
    649 son
    650 of
    651 Semei,
    652 which
    653 was
    654 the
    655 son
    656 of
    657 Joseph,
    658 which
    659 was
    660 the
    661 son
    662 of
    663 Juda,
    664 Which
    665 was
    666 the
    667 son
    668 of
    669 Joanna,
    670 which
    671 was
    672 the
    673 son
    674 of
    675 Rhesa,
    676 which
    677 was
    678 the
    679 son
    680 of
    681 Zorobabel,
    682 which
    683 was
    684 the
    685 son
    686 of
    687 Salathiel,
    688 which
    689 was
    690 the
    691 son
    692 of
    693 Neri,
    694 Which
    695 was
    696 the
    697 son
    698 of
    699 Melchi,
    700 which
    701 was
    702 the
    703 son
    704 of
    705 Addi,
    706 which
    707 was
    708 the
    709 son
    710 of
    711 Cosam,
    712 which
    713 was
    714 the
    715 son
    716 of
    717 Elmodam,
    718 which
    719 was
    720 the
    721 son
    722 of
    723 Er,
    724 Which
    725 was
    726 the
    727 son
    728 of
    729 Jose,
    730 which
    731 was
    732 the
    733 son
    734 of
    735 Eliezer,
    736 which
    737 was
    738 the
    739 son
    740 of
    741 Jorim,
    742 which
    743 was
    744 the
    745 son
    746 of
    747 Matthat,
    748 which
    749 was
    750 the
    751 son
    752 of
    753 Levi,
    754 Which
    755 was
    756 the
    757 son
    758 of
    759 Simeon,
    760 which
    761 was
    762 the
    763 son
    764 of
    765 Juda,
    766 which
    767 was
    768 the
    769 son
    770 of
    771 Joseph,
    772 which
    773 was
    774 the
    775 son
    776 of
    777 Jonan,
    778 which
    779 was
    780 the
    781 son
    782 of
    783 Eliakim,
    784 Which
    785 was
    786 the
    787 son
    788 of
    789 Melea,
    790 which
    791 was
    792 the
    793 son
    794 of
    795 Menan,
    796 which
    797 was
    798 the
    799 son
    800 of
    801 Mattatha,
    802 which
    803 was
    804 the
    805 son
    806 of
    807 Nathan,
    808 which
    809 was
    810 the
    811 son
    812 of
    813 David,
    814 Which
    815 was
    816 the
    817 son
    818 of
    819 Jesse,
    820 which
    821 was
    822 the
    823 son
    824 of
    825 Obed,
    826 which
    827 was
    828 the
    829 son
    830 of
    831 Booz,
    832 which
    833 was
    834 the
    835 son
    836 of
    837 Salmon,
    838 which
    839 was
    840 the
    841 son
    842 of
    843 Naasson,
    844 Which
    845 was
    846 the
    847 son
    848 of
    849 Aminadab,
    850 which
    851 was
    852 the
    853 son
    854 of
    855 Aram,
    856 which
    857 was
    858 the
    859 son
    860 of
    861 Esrom,
    862 which
    863 was
    864 the
    865 son
    866 of
    867 Phares,
    868 which
    869 was
    870 the
    871 son
    872 of
    873 Juda,
    874 Which
    875 was
    876 the
    877 son
    878 of
    879 Jacob,
    880 which
    881 was
    882 the
    883 son
    884 of
    885 Isaac,
    886 which
    887 was
    888 the
    889 son
    890 of
    891 Abraham,
    892 which
    893 was
    894 the
    895 son
    896 of
    897 Thara,
    898 which
    899 was
    900 the
    901 son
    902 of
    903 Nachor,
    904 Which
    905 was
    906 the
    907 son
    908 of
    909 Saruch,
    910 which
    911 was
    912 the
    913 son
    914 of
    915 Ragau,
    916 which
    917 was
    918 the
    919 son
    920 of
    921 Phalec,
    922 which
    923 was
    924 the
    925 son
    926 of
    927 Heber,
    928 which
    929 was
    930 the
    931 son
    932 of
    933 Sala,
    934 Which
    935 was
    936 the
    937 son
    938 of
    939 Cainan,
    940 which
    941 was
    942 the
    943 son
    944 of
    945 Arphaxad,
    946 which
    947 was
    948 the
    949 son
    950 of
    951 Sem,
    952 which
    953 was
    954 the
    955 son
    956 of
    957 Noe,
    958 which
    959 was
    960 the
    961 son
    962 of
    963 Lamech,
    964 Which
    965 was
    966 the
    967 son
    968 of
    969 Mathusala
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    258

    Mathusala

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Wasn't "painstaking" at all! I had my micro-munks do it for me.

    It is a striking little "coincidence." Who do you supposed first discovered this? I imagine it must have been very painstaking for them if they did it before computers. I present the evidence here so folks can confirm it for themselves. I can also confirm that "Satan" first occurs in chapter 359, corresponding to the value of that word. But these are just two "hits" out of a book consisting of 31,102 verses, so it is a legitimate question to ask how many such "hits" we should expect from random chance. As it stands, I don't see how "cherry picking" a few examples here or there could prove anything. But I have an open mind and I will continue to check out the evidence you provide.

    1 Now
    2 in
    3 the
    4 fifteenth
    5 year
    6 of
    7 the
    8 reign
    9 of
    10 Tiberius
    11 Caesar,
    12 Pontius
    13 Pilate
    14 being
    15 governor
    16 of
    17 Judaea,
    18 and
    19 Herod
    20 being
    21 tetrarch
    22 of
    23 Galilee,
    24 and
    25 his
    26 brother
    27 Philip
    28 tetrarch
    29 of
    30 Ituraea
    31 and
    32 of
    33 the
    34 region
    35 of
    36 Trachonitis,
    37 and
    38 Lysanias
    39 the
    40 tetrarch
    41 of
    42 Abilene,
    43 Annas
    44 and
    45 Caiaphas
    46 being
    47 the
    48 high
    49 priests,
    50 the
    51 word
    52 of
    53 God
    54 came
    55 unto
    56 John
    57 the
    58 son
    59 of
    60 Zacharias
    61 in
    62 the
    63 wilderness.
    64 And
    65 he
    66 came
    67 into
    68 all
    69 the
    70 country
    71 about
    72 Jordan,
    73 preaching
    74 the
    75 baptism
    76 of
    77 repentance
    78 for
    79 the
    80 remission
    81 of
    82 sins;
    83 As
    84 it
    85 is
    86 written
    87 in
    88 the
    89 book
    90 of
    91 the
    92 words
    93 of
    94 Esaias
    95 the
    96 prophet,
    97 saying,
    98 The
    99 voice
    100 of
    101 one
    102 crying
    103 in
    104 the
    105 wilderness,
    106 Prepare
    107 ye
    108 the
    109 way
    110 of
    111 the
    112 Lord,
    113 make
    114 his
    115 paths
    116 straight.
    117 Every
    118 valley
    119 shall
    120 be
    121 filled,
    122 and
    123 every
    124 mountain
    125 and
    126 hill
    127 shall
    128 be
    129 brought
    130 low;
    131 and
    132 the
    133 crooked
    134 shall
    135 be
    136 made
    137 straight,
    138 and
    139 the
    140 rough
    141 ways
    142 shall
    143 be
    144 made
    145 smooth;
    146 And
    147 all
    148 flesh
    149 shall
    150 see
    151 the
    152 salvation
    153 of
    154 God.
    155 7 Then
    156 said
    157 he
    158 to
    159 the
    160 multitude
    161 that
    162 came
    163 forth
    164 to
    165 be
    166 baptized
    167 of
    168 him,
    169 O
    170 generation
    171 of
    172 vipers,
    173 who
    174 hath
    175 warned
    176 you
    177 to
    178 flee
    179 from
    180 the
    181 wrath
    182 to
    183 come?
    184 Bring
    185 forth
    186 therefore
    187 fruits
    188 worthy
    189 of
    190 repentance,
    191 and
    192 begin
    193 not
    194 to
    195 say
    196 within
    197 yourselves,
    198 We
    199 have
    200 Abraham
    201 to
    202 our
    203 father:
    204 for
    205 I
    206 say
    207 unto
    208 you,
    209 That
    210 God
    211 is
    212 able
    213 of
    214 these
    215 stones
    216 to
    217 raise
    218 up
    219 children
    220 unto
    221 Abraham.
    222 And
    223 now
    224 also
    225 the
    226 axe
    227 is
    228 laid
    229 unto
    230 the
    231 root
    232 of
    233 the
    234 trees:
    235 every
    236 tree
    237 therefore
    238 which
    239 bringeth
    240 not
    241 forth
    242 good
    243 fruit
    244 is
    245 hewn
    246 down,
    247 and
    248 cast
    249 into
    250 the
    251 fire.
    252 10 And
    253 the
    254 people
    255 asked
    256 him,
    257 saying,
    258 What
    259 shall
    260 we
    261 do
    262 then?
    263 He
    264 answereth
    265 and
    266 saith
    267 unto
    268 them,
    269 He
    270 that
    271 hath
    272 two
    273 coats,
    274 let
    275 him
    276 impart
    277 to
    278 him
    279 that
    280 hath
    281 none;
    282 and
    283 he
    284 that
    285 hath
    286 meat,
    287 let
    288 him
    289 do
    290 likewise.
    291 Then
    292 came
    293 also
    294 publicans
    295 to
    296 be
    297 baptized,
    298 and
    299 said
    300 unto
    301 him,
    302 Master,
    303 what
    304 shall
    305 we
    306 do?
    307 And
    308 he
    309 said
    310 unto
    311 them,
    312 Exact
    313 no
    314 more
    315 than
    316 that
    317 which
    318 is
    319 appointed
    320 you.
    321 And
    322 the
    323 soldiers
    324 likewise
    325 demanded
    326 of
    327 him,
    328 saying,
    329 And
    330 what
    331 shall
    332 we
    333 do?
    334 And
    335 he
    336 said
    337 unto
    338 them,
    339 Do
    340 violence
    341 to
    342 no
    343 man,
    344 neither
    345 accuse
    346 any
    347 falsely;
    348 and
    349 be
    350 content
    351 with
    352 your
    353 wages.
    354 15 And
    355 as
    356 the
    357 people
    358 were
    359 in
    360 expectation,
    361 and
    362 all
    363 men
    364 mused
    365 in
    366 their
    367 hearts
    368 of
    369 John,
    370 whether
    371 he
    372 were
    373 the
    374 Christ,
    375 or
    376 not;
    377 John
    378 answered,
    379 saying
    380 unto
    381 them
    382 all,
    383 I
    384 indeed
    385 baptize
    386 you
    387 with
    388 water;
    389 but
    390 one
    391 mightier
    392 than
    393 I
    394 cometh,
    395 the
    396 latchet
    397 of
    398 whose
    399 shoes
    400 I
    401 am
    402 not
    403 worthy
    404 to
    405 unloose:
    406 he
    407 shall
    408 baptize
    409 you
    410 with
    411 the
    412 Holy
    413 Ghost
    414 and
    415 with
    416 fire:
    417 Whose
    418 fan
    419 is
    420 in
    421 his
    422 hand,
    423 and
    424 he
    425 will
    426 throughly
    427 purge
    428 his
    429 floor,
    430 and
    431 will
    432 gather
    433 the
    434 wheat
    435 into
    436 his
    437 garner;
    438 but
    439 the
    440 chaff
    441 he
    442 will
    443 burn
    444 with
    445 fire
    446 unquenchable.
    447 18 And
    448 many
    449 other
    450 things
    451 in
    452 his
    453 exhortation
    454 preached
    455 he
    456 unto
    457 the
    458 people.
    459 But
    460 Herod
    461 the
    462 tetrarch,
    463 being
    464 reproved
    465 by
    466 him
    467 for
    468 Herodias
    469 his
    470 brother
    471 Philip's
    472 wife,
    473 and
    474 for
    475 all
    476 the
    477 evils
    478 which
    479 Herod
    480 had
    481 done,
    482 Added
    483 yet
    484 this
    485 above
    486 all,
    487 that
    488 he
    489 shut
    490 up
    491 John
    492 in
    493 prison.
    494 21 Now
    495 when
    496 all
    497 the
    498 people
    499 were
    500 baptized,
    501 it
    502 came
    503 to
    504 pass,
    505 that
    506 Jesus
    507 also
    508 being
    509 baptized,
    510 and
    511 praying,
    512 the
    513 heaven
    514 was
    515 opened,
    516 And
    517 the
    518 Holy
    519 Ghost
    520 descended
    521 in
    522 a
    523 bodily
    524 shape
    525 like
    526 a
    527 dove
    528 upon
    529 him,
    530 and
    531 a
    532 voice
    533 came
    534 from
    535 heaven,
    536 which
    537 said,
    538 Thou
    539 art
    540 my
    541 beloved
    542 Son;
    543 in
    544 thee
    545 I
    546 am
    547 well
    548 pleased.
    549 23 And
    550 Jesus
    551 himself
    552 began
    553 to
    554 be
    555 about
    556 thirty
    557 years
    558 of
    559 age,
    560 being
    561 (as
    562 was
    563 supposed)
    564 the
    565 son
    566 of
    567 Joseph,
    568 which
    569 was
    570 the
    571 son
    572 of
    573 Heli,
    574 Which
    575 was
    576 the
    577 son
    578 of
    579 Matthat,
    580 which
    581 was
    582 the
    583 son
    584 of
    585 Levi,
    586 which
    587 was
    588 the
    589 son
    590 of
    591 Melchi,
    592 which
    593 was
    594 the
    595 son
    596 of
    597 Janna,
    598 which
    599 was
    600 the
    601 son
    602 of
    603 Joseph,
    604 Which
    605 was
    606 the
    607 son
    608 of
    609 Mattathias,
    610 which
    611 was
    612 the
    613 son
    614 of
    615 Amos,
    616 which
    617 was
    618 the
    619 son
    620 of
    621 Naum,
    622 which
    623 was
    624 the
    625 son
    626 of
    627 Esli,
    628 which
    629 was
    630 the
    631 son
    632 of
    633 Nagge,
    634 Which
    635 was
    636 the
    637 son
    638 of
    639 Maath,
    640 which
    641 was
    642 the
    643 son
    644 of
    645 Mattathias,
    646 which
    647 was
    648 the
    649 son
    650 of
    651 Semei,
    652 which
    653 was
    654 the
    655 son
    656 of
    657 Joseph,
    658 which
    659 was
    660 the
    661 son
    662 of
    663 Juda,
    664 Which
    665 was
    666 the
    667 son
    668 of
    669 Joanna,
    670 which
    671 was
    672 the
    673 son
    674 of
    675 Rhesa,
    676 which
    677 was
    678 the
    679 son
    680 of
    681 Zorobabel,
    682 which
    683 was
    684 the
    685 son
    686 of
    687 Salathiel,
    688 which
    689 was
    690 the
    691 son
    692 of
    693 Neri,
    694 Which
    695 was
    696 the
    697 son
    698 of
    699 Melchi,
    700 which
    701 was
    702 the
    703 son
    704 of
    705 Addi,
    706 which
    707 was
    708 the
    709 son
    710 of
    711 Cosam,
    712 which
    713 was
    714 the
    715 son
    716 of
    717 Elmodam,
    718 which
    719 was
    720 the
    721 son
    722 of
    723 Er,
    724 Which
    725 was
    726 the
    727 son
    728 of
    729 Jose,
    730 which
    731 was
    732 the
    733 son
    734 of
    735 Eliezer,
    736 which
    737 was
    738 the
    739 son
    740 of
    741 Jorim,
    742 which
    743 was
    744 the
    745 son
    746 of
    747 Matthat,
    748 which
    749 was
    750 the
    751 son
    752 of
    753 Levi,
    754 Which
    755 was
    756 the
    757 son
    758 of
    759 Simeon,
    760 which
    761 was
    762 the
    763 son
    764 of
    765 Juda,
    766 which
    767 was
    768 the
    769 son
    770 of
    771 Joseph,
    772 which
    773 was
    774 the
    775 son
    776 of
    777 Jonan,
    778 which
    779 was
    780 the
    781 son
    782 of
    783 Eliakim,
    784 Which
    785 was
    786 the
    787 son
    788 of
    789 Melea,
    790 which
    791 was
    792 the
    793 son
    794 of
    795 Menan,
    796 which
    797 was
    798 the
    799 son
    800 of
    801 Mattatha,
    802 which
    803 was
    804 the
    805 son
    806 of
    807 Nathan,
    808 which
    809 was
    810 the
    811 son
    812 of
    813 David,
    814 Which
    815 was
    816 the
    817 son
    818 of
    819 Jesse,
    820 which
    821 was
    822 the
    823 son
    824 of
    825 Obed,
    826 which
    827 was
    828 the
    829 son
    830 of
    831 Booz,
    832 which
    833 was
    834 the
    835 son
    836 of
    837 Salmon,
    838 which
    839 was
    840 the
    841 son
    842 of
    843 Naasson,
    844 Which
    845 was
    846 the
    847 son
    848 of
    849 Aminadab,
    850 which
    851 was
    852 the
    853 son
    854 of
    855 Aram,
    856 which
    857 was
    858 the
    859 son
    860 of
    861 Esrom,
    862 which
    863 was
    864 the
    865 son
    866 of
    867 Phares,
    868 which
    869 was
    870 the
    871 son
    872 of
    873 Juda,
    874 Which
    875 was
    876 the
    877 son
    878 of
    879 Jacob,
    880 which
    881 was
    882 the
    883 son
    884 of
    885 Isaac,
    886 which
    887 was
    888 the
    889 son
    890 of
    891 Abraham,
    892 which
    893 was
    894 the
    895 son
    896 of
    897 Thara,
    898 which
    899 was
    900 the
    901 son
    902 of
    903 Nachor,
    904 Which
    905 was
    906 the
    907 son
    908 of
    909 Saruch,
    910 which
    911 was
    912 the
    913 son
    914 of
    915 Ragau,
    916 which
    917 was
    918 the
    919 son
    920 of
    921 Phalec,
    922 which
    923 was
    924 the
    925 son
    926 of
    927 Heber,
    928 which
    929 was
    930 the
    931 son
    932 of
    933 Sala,
    934 Which
    935 was
    936 the
    937 son
    938 of
    939 Cainan,
    940 which
    941 was
    942 the
    943 son
    944 of
    945 Arphaxad,
    946 which
    947 was
    948 the
    949 son
    950 of
    951 Sem,
    952 which
    953 was
    954 the
    955 son
    956 of
    957 Noe,
    958 which
    959 was
    960 the
    961 son
    962 of
    963 Lamech,
    964 Which
    965 was
    966 the
    967 son
    968 of
    969 Mathusala

    Man I wish I knew how to do the computer stuff I've seen you do! Thank you for the open-mindedness... and thank you for verifing the "Satan" chapter/gematria count of 359. You have to toss in a minuscule of "more coincidence" that this is chapter is also the turning point for "adversary" to "Satan", right...just a little bit?

    JACOB(182) + ADVERSARY(359) = ISRAEL(541) Genesis chp. 32 ...first appearance of "ISRAEL" after JACOB wrestled all night with a "man" (or something)...definitely something adversarial...have you ever tried to wrestle with someone all night long...now that's an adversary!

    (I just had to slip that one in...just for fun.)

    "The open-minded see the Truth in different things: the closed-minded see only the differences."
    ~ Anonymous
    Facing the East,
    Frater Rosae Crucis



    "It is only by the exercise of Reason, that man can discover God."
    ~ Thomas Paine

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RC Christian View Post
    Man I wish I knew how to do the computer stuff I've seen you do! Thank you for the open-mindedness... and thank you for verifing the "Satan" chapter/gematria count of 359. You have to toss in a minuscule of "more coincidence" that this is chapter is also the turning point for "adversary" to "Satan", right...just a little bit?

    JACOB(182) + ADVERSARY(359) = ISRAEL(541) Genesis chp. 32 ...first appearance of "ISRAEL" after JACOB wrestled all night with a "man" (or something)...definitely something adversarial...have you ever tried to wrestle with someone all night long...now that's an adversary!

    (I just had to slip that one in...just for fun.)

    "The open-minded see the Truth in different things: the closed-minded see only the differences."
    ~ Anonymous
    Good morning RC,

    When I was in the midst of the indepth study that led to the Bible Wheel and this site, I would record every connection I could find in the Bible. I was always on the lookout for correlations between the sequences of book, chapters, and verses and the content they contained. Some of the correlations are very obvious and seem very significant, like the correlation between the 66 chapters of Isaiah and the 66 books of the Bible which I've documented in the section called the Isaiah-Bible Correlation. There are some truly astounding correlations that look like mathematical projections from a 3D Bible onto a 2D "plane" of Isaiah. For example:

    Isaiah Chapter 45, Verse 9
    Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let
    the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him
    that fashioneth it, What makest thou?
    or thy work, He hath no hands?

    Bible Book 45, Chapter 9
    Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against
    God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou
    made me thus?
    Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make
    one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    Taking the book, chapter, and verse numbers as the coordinates for points in 3D space, we can project from the verse in "3D Bible space" onto the "2D Isaiah space" where I write Romans 9:20 = PBible(45, 9 , 20) and Isaiah 45:9 = PIsaiah(45,9):



    I found about a dozen "first order projective links" like this. And some are KeyLinks whcih means that they involve words and phrases that occur nowhere else in the Bible, so they are both unique and mathematically related as an object to the shadow it casts. For example, the phrase "that ye may know and believe" occurs in two and only two verses of the KJV:
    Isaiah Chapter 43, Verse 10 Bible Book 43, Chapter 10
    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

    Patterns like this convinced me that a supernatural agent - the God of Christian theism - deliberately designed these features into the text. I felt that there was no other possible expanation, especially since the links themselves seemed designed to convince a person to "know and believe" the Bible, and to not argue with the Creator.

    And so I have a very open mind to patterns like those you present. But I also am very skeptical of things that look like "mere coincidence." As I hope you will note, I tend to look for sytematic patterns that clearly are not the result of chance. The kinds of patterns that you are showing don't strike me that way. I have not found any systematic correlations between word values and first occurrences like Satan (359) first appearing in Bible chapter 359. What I see looks like a collection of confetti. One kind of coincidence here, a different kind there. This is not convincing at all to a person who knows and understands the meaning of "cherry picking."

    Let me explain the problem. There is an effectively unlimited number of possible correlations to look for. Take as an example the list of words and numbers we have from Luke 3:1. There is only one "hit" out of 969 numbers and names in that list. Given the signficance of repdigits like 111, 666, 888 in Bible numerics, one would think there should be some links based on those numbers. But when we look, this is what we see:

    111 the
    222 And
    333 do
    444 with
    555 about
    666 the
    777 Jonah
    888 the

    Well, that looks pretty random. And when I look for any other correlations, I don't see any. So this whole list of 969 words paired with numbers looks like a random list with one coincidence. Should we be impressed with that?

    This exemplifies the fundamental problem with an unprincipled approach to "patterns in the Bible." An unprincipled approach easily leads to the illusion that there are significant deliberately designed patterns when there are really only random coincidences. How many such coincidences should we expext to find in any book? If you can't answer that question, then you will have no basis in fact for your intution of the significance of the patterns you have found.

    It's like the Shakespeare thing. When first presented it seems like "Wow - that must have been deliberately designed." But then we think about it we recall that the pieces were alreadly almost in place before Shakespeare was born, so if it was designed it must have been designed by a superatural agent who knew the future, or the folks who did design it in 1610 were very lucky to find the pieces almost in place so they could adjust them to fit their patther. But that returns us to "mere coincidence" as the antecedent cause.

    This brings me to the mystery that currently holds my attention. The pattern of the Bible Wheel is unlike anything ever seen in any of these "Bible patterns" that folks have been fascinated with for so many years. It really does stand up under close scrutiny as a pattern that demands explanation. But I have none! It is simply impossible to attribute it to the deliberate design of any human or group of humans, and netiher do I believe in the God of traditional Christian theism. So I am confronted with a mystery.

    I would be most grateful if anyone has any insight to offer as to what this could all mean.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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