The meaning of Matt 17:27 (Coin from the mouth of a fish)

[kathryn]

It seems to me that the "carnal" (physical) aspect of our humanity has gotten a bum rap. First, there is the false concept that it has been "twisted" and "perverted" by a "sin nature." That idea is not taught in the Bible, as we explored in some detail in my thread called Sin Nature: The Phologiston of Christian Theology?.

Second, the Word became Flesh, so obviously "flesh" is not in and of itself "sinful" or "twisted" or "perverted." The whole problem as I understood it when I was a Christian is that the flesh is out of harmony with the spirit. (See how the conversation begins to loop back on itself? This is a primary sign of following our intuition/spirit as we search out the truth.) This is the plain teaching of Scripture - the flesh and spirit can be contrary to one another. But that contrariness doesn't have to have a moral overtone (musical metaphor). It could be seen as counterpoint (again, as in music). I mean, is it not obvious that there is great value in being an incarnate creature? That's what this whole game is all about! When I here Christian speak as if the whole purpose of this world was to "get saved and go to heaven" I always wonder why God didn't just create the souls he wanted to be in heaven in heaven, and avoid the whole blood history of this physical world. Obviously, there is great value to the Creator in our physicality. I think Christianity has totally missed the point. you don't say!!!!!

Of course, there also is a lot of wisdom that speaks about the corruption of physicality, and how we should seek the things of the spirit. But the teaching that we must "mortify the deeds of the flesh" leads to great error if we misinterpret it to mean that the flesh itself is bad. Yes...and totally negates one of the primary reasons for Jesus coming in the flesh! If it was just for the realm of spirit, it was the ultimate of futile gestures and a very bloody one to boot. Every part of him was involved...as was the creation!

And getting back to the theme of "crooked" - that is indeed the form of the snake, is it not? And is it a "coincidence" that the snake is the symbol of Wisdom? Not merely in the Bible, but the world over. And this reminds me of one of my all time favorite verses:yes...and we won't go there in this thread...but when you think of it in these terms, it gives you some added food for thought, concerning the "abomination that causes desolation", doesn't it?. We've just uncovered (according to our inner "harmony") some valid witnesses in both creation and the logos,(not to mention inner witness) that "good" and "evil" aren't appropriate adjectives to describe a concept in the literal meaning of the words.
So....what we've thought as being an abomination, may not necessarily be one to God . For instance...Jesus left the their "house" desolate. Was he an abomination to God?...of course not...but he became one when he became sin. At that point, the Father's wrath was poured out upon him. Have we seen him as an "abomination" using these terms? Probably not...I know I hadn't until most recently. Whose viewpoint are we viewing the "abomination" from? I'm not suggesting this is the meaning in scripture...just that I have begun to question my understanding to this point.

Ecclesiastes 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

ah..a favorite of mine too!

[kathryn]

In as much as "carnality" refers to the mind focused only on matter and not on spirit, then yes, I can see how that could lead to error. But we are embodied for a purpose! Let us rejoice in that purpose, and to use a Christian phrase, use it to glorify God).Yes...but I believe that Adam was made of glorified matter. I believe the earth was in a state of complete right ness when Adam was taken out of it. I feel as "earthy" or connected to matter as you do, but I don't see this as a question of matter vs spirit. I see it as spirit consumating with glorified matter, when redemption is completed. (or matter restored to its glorified state) The earth took on Adam's debt(cursed for him)...and became , in essence, Adam's "kinsman redeemer" or "goel", until Jesus took on the debt and paid it once and for all. So...we feel "connected" because we were formed from it, with the inner but hidden "knowledge" that we are "of" it.

Oh ... and that reminds me of another question. What in the world does it mean to "glorify God?" I should start a thread on that I guess.

Perhaps reflect Him? (fully that is :..we will be like Him when we see Him as He is)

[kathryn]

oops..guess I wasn't quite finished:-)
So...regarding the "crooked" or twisted...I see anything that isn't in a state of harmony or right ness...as being twisted, be it carnal thinking which is defined in scripture as the "vain imaginations"....or the decaying of our bodies...whatever. Anything that "misses the mark" of the state of right ness..

[Charisma]

Hi Richard, Kathryn and all,

Very interesting discussion. I might go back for some quotes if necessary in another post, but I'm seeing enough more bouncing off your posts, to want to share it straight away!

First of all, to answer your question, Richard, about how in the account Christ fulfils all righteousness, and Peter's connection with it, I connect it in my mind to the time when John the Baptist remonstrated with Jesus at His baptism to which Christ entreated John with the words, 'Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him'?

On reading those words again, I notice that Christ included John in the 'righteousness' to which He referred- 'it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness, which is what I 'see' in Matt 17:27... give unto them for me and thee'.

Maybe there is more there than I can see, but that's what I was thinking.


We could give the account in Matt 17 another beginning, so that Peter said 'no, He doesn't pay taxes'. That would have been fair, because He is the Son of the King and He didn't need to pay any tax. But Peter would still have owed his tax.

Can you see that Christ went beyond what was reasonable, in order to include Peter and to give Peter His righteousness - just as He did at His baptism, by being baptised at all?

I'll leave you to chew on that!


Now, about the connection between 'hook' and 'wisdom', and perhaps the serpent, the link is 'lifted up'. That's what a hook does.

The nails on the cross 'lifted up' Jesus so that IN Him, the serpent could be slain. That's the same picture He picks from Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness. 'Desire followeth the eye'. By looking at something we lay ourselves open to be hooked by it - if we keep looking, we me become connected to it - hooked on it.

This brings me to my second thought about the link between the 'hook' in to hook, and 'wisdom' to be hooked by 'wisdom'.

Proverbs 2 majors on the idea of being hooked by wisdom. What does wisdom do? She lifts up her voice to cry - a link with 'mouth'. The whole chapter ends with the adulterer - the one who follows the 'hook' (sin) which makes him 'crooked' inside - to death.

In Job 41 leviathan represents 'the sin' in mankind (sea), which is terribly hard (impossible) for a man to 'hook' out of himself. The chapter is jammed with rhetorical questions. But Christ came to allow Himself to be temporarily hooked in His death (for us) (connection again - the same way we are able to partake of His righteousness), that He might destroy leviathan in us - connection again!


Isaiah captures this in a compact sentence: 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

{piercing: or, crossing like a bar}

On 'punish' leviathan - Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. {from prison...: or, away my distress and judgment: but, etc} {was he...: Heb. was the stroke upon him} 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,

{death: Heb. deaths}

Again in this passage we see the passive (tense) in the yieldedness of the one who has been hooked, who does not resist another's desire (will).


Proverbs 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; 2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, [and] apply thine heart to understanding; 3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, [and] liftest up thy voice for understanding; {liftest...: Heb. givest thy voice} 4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as [for] hid treasures; 5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. 6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth [cometh] knowledge and understanding. 7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: [he is] a buckler to them that walk uprightly. 8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints. 9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; [yea], every good path. 10 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; 11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: 12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil [man], from the man that speaketh froward things; 13 Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness; 14 Who rejoice to do evil, [and] delight in the frowardness of the wicked; 15 Whose ways [are] crooked, and [they] froward in their paths: 16 To deliver thee from the strange woman, [even] from the stranger [which] flattereth with her words; 17 Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God. 18 For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead. 19 None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life. 20 That thou mayest walk in the way of good [men], and keep the paths of the righteous. 21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. 22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. {rooted: or, plucked up}

the upright - those who can lift up their heads without the condemnation of sin/ignorance?

There is quite a lot about 'the way' 'paths' connected to righteousness (and the wrong way, connected to unrighteousness).

v 22 - In Christ, the transgressor in us (lethiathan) shall be 'hooked out' of us. Now, I'm not sure if that's the same Hebrew word, but the meaning is similar. We often have to use a tool to get under the weed we are trying to remove.

[kathryn]

Hi Richard, Kathryn and all,

Very interesting discussion. I might go back for some quotes if necessary in another post, but I'm seeing enough more bouncing off your posts, to want to share it straight away!

First of all, to answer your question, Richard, about how in the account Christ fulfils all righteousness, and Peter's connection with it, I connect it in my mind to the time when John the Baptist remonstrated with Jesus at His baptism to which Christ entreated John with the words, 'Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him'?

On reading those words again, I notice that Christ included John in the 'righteousness' to which He referred- 'it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness, which is what I 'see' in Matt 17:27... give unto them for me and thee'.

Maybe there is more there than I can see, but that's what I was thinking.


We could give the account in Matt 17 another beginning, so that Peter said 'no, He doesn't pay taxes'. That would have been fair, because He is the Son of the King and He didn't need to pay any tax. But Peter would still have owed his tax.

Can you see that Christ went beyond what was reasonable, in order to include Peter and to give Peter His righteousness - just as He did at His baptism, by being baptised at all?

I'll leave you to chew on that!


Now, about the connection between 'hook' and 'wisdom', and perhaps the serpent, the link is 'lifted up'. That's what a hook does.

The nails on the cross 'lifted up' Jesus so that IN Him, the serpent could be slain. That's the same picture He picks from Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness. 'Desire followeth the eye'. By looking at something we lay ourselves open to be hooked by it - if we keep looking, we me become connected to it - hooked on it.

This brings me to my second thought about the link between the 'hook' in to hook, and 'wisdom' to be hooked by 'wisdom'.

Proverbs 2 majors on the idea of being hooked by wisdom. What does wisdom do? She lifts up her voice to cry - a link with 'mouth'. The whole chapter ends with the adulterer - the one who follows the 'hook' (sin) which makes him 'crooked' inside - to death.

In Job 41 leviathan represents 'the sin' in mankind (sea), which is terribly hard (impossible) for a man to 'hook' out of himself. The chapter is jammed with rhetorical questions. But Christ came to allow Himself to be temporarily hooked in His death (for us) (connection again - the same way we are able to partake of His righteousness), that He might destroy leviathan in us - connection again!


Isaiah captures this in a compact sentence: 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

{piercing: or, crossing like a bar}

On 'punish' leviathan - Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. {from prison...: or, away my distress and judgment: but, etc} {was he...: Heb. was the stroke upon him} 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,

{death: Heb. deaths}

Again in this passage we see the passive (tense) in the yieldedness of the one who has been hooked, who does not resist another's desire (will).


Proverbs 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; 2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, [and] apply thine heart to understanding; 3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, [and] liftest up thy voice for understanding; {liftest...: Heb. givest thy voice} 4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as [for] hid treasures; 5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. 6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth [cometh] knowledge and understanding. 7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: [he is] a buckler to them that walk uprightly. 8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints. 9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; [yea], every good path. 10 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; 11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: 12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil [man], from the man that speaketh froward things; 13 Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness; 14 Who rejoice to do evil, [and] delight in the frowardness of the wicked; 15 Whose ways [are] crooked, and [they] froward in their paths: 16 To deliver thee from the strange woman, [even] from the stranger [which] flattereth with her words; 17 Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God. 18 For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead. 19 None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life. 20 That thou mayest walk in the way of good [men], and keep the paths of the righteous. 21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. 22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. {rooted: or, plucked up}

the upright - those who can lift up their heads without the condemnation of sin/ignorance?

There is quite a lot about 'the way' 'paths' connected to righteousness (and the wrong way, connected to unrighteousness).

v 22 - In Christ, the transgressor in us (lethiathan) shall be 'hooked out' of us. Now, I'm not sure if that's the same Hebrew word, but the meaning is similar. We often have to use a tool to get under the weed we are trying to remove.

Good morning all...Those are some great connections Charisma. I hadn't thought of the comparison with wisdom and the harlot. They are both personified as a "lure" of sorts as you pointed out.

While I was reading your post, I was mulling over other types in scripture that illustrate this duel "lifting up" theme of the polar opposites. We see it in the story of Joseph where he is imprisoned with both the baker and the butler. Scripture states that their "heads" were lifted up; the baker is then hung, and the butler or cup bearer restored to his original position.
In the NT, the tares and wheat grow alongside of each other until their "heads" have fully formed; the tares are then burnt up...the wheat moved into the barn. There are two things revealed in the "lifting up" process...the crooked and the straight, the man of sin and the Son of Man/God within us.

As far as the ripening principle goes, if you were to lay the foundation of a building without adhering to the plumb line, the end result would be a far greater expression of the original error. The same applies to the mind . We often don't recognize the" harlot" until we can see the "fruit" of what the seeded lie or "vain imagination" has brought forth.
While this isn't directly addressed in the account of the temple tax/fish it is expressing the "lifting up" of the true intent of the "Father" .
It is also a metaphor of the Firstfruits who become the offering for the sanctification of the rest of the crop. Jesus is called the first of the first fruits ; his death on the cross fulfilled the legal obligation of our "debt". The coin appears in the mouth of the first fish to be drawn or lifted up. All sin is reckoned as "debt" in scripture.

[kathryn]

Someone may have already mentioned this; I have numerous trains of thought going on right now in my head and can't remember if it was.
The temple tax, according to this article, was a half-shekel of gold:http://www.plim.org/1Moneychangers%2...e%20Temple.htm

I mention it only because it gives us another clue to look for in possible correlations on the BW...as gold is a type of the divine nature in man, which must be taken through the purification process.
He says to the "luke warm" or mixture (donkey..carnal/divine) "..buy from me gold refined in fire". Again...we have the separation (and lifting up) of the dual nature of man taking place in the "fire", the dross removed with the gold remaining. (fish comes up out of the "water".)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard, Kathryn and all,

Very interesting discussion. I might go back for some quotes if necessary in another post, but I'm seeing enough more bouncing off your posts, to want to share it straight away!

First of all, to answer your question, Richard, about how in the account Christ fulfils all righteousness, and Peter's connection with it, I connect it in my mind to the time when John the Baptist remonstrated with Jesus at His baptism to which Christ entreated John with the words, 'Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him'?

On reading those words again, I notice that Christ included John in the 'righteousness' to which He referred- 'it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness, which is what I 'see' in Matt 17:27... give unto them for me and thee'.

Maybe there is more there than I can see, but that's what I was thinking.

Good morning Charisma,

I agree that when Christ said "it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness" he was including John because John had a role to play. But I don't see anything that makes me think that Jesus was "including John in the righteousness." I'm not even sure what that means. I think maybe this is a rather tenuous thread we are tugging at here?

We could give the account in Matt 17 another beginning, so that Peter said 'no, He doesn't pay taxes'. That would have been fair, because He is the Son of the King and He didn't need to pay any tax. But Peter would still have owed his tax.

I don't think that works because Jesus was born under the law and had to obey everything just like everyone else. He got no "indulgences" just because he was the son of the king.

Can you see that Christ went beyond what was reasonable, in order to include Peter and to give Peter His righteousness - just as He did at His baptism, by being baptised at all?

I'll leave you to chew on that!

Well, no. I can't see that Jesus did anything to "give Peter His righteousness" in that passage of Matt 17. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be stubborn or hard-headed (though that certainly is/was a personality trait of mine!). I just honestly don't see it. It feels like a stretch.

Now, about the connection between 'hook' and 'wisdom', and perhaps the serpent, the link is 'lifted up'. That's what a hook does.

The nails on the cross 'lifted up' Jesus so that IN Him, the serpent could be slain. That's the same picture He picks from Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness. 'Desire followeth the eye'. By looking at something we lay ourselves open to be hooked by it - if we keep looking, we me become connected to it - hooked on it.

Yeah ... there's lots of stuff there I can see! [Bout time, eh? ]

The serpent/Messiah connection is quite mysterious. It even shows up in gematria:

Nachash (Serpent) = 358 = Maschiach (Messiah)

This identity was probably known in the first century.

And the priestly name Levi means Lamed (to) Vav (connnect) Yod (to me)

This brings me to my second thought about the link between the 'hook' in to hook, and 'wisdom' to be hooked by 'wisdom'.

That's interesting. You and I are looking at it in opposite ways. When I made the connection between "hook" and "wisdom" it was based on the etymological root meaning of "hakah" (to wait) and "hokmah" (wisdom). The idea is that one can find wisdom only when waiting like a fisherman with his hook in the water. He must sit quietly and wait for a "bite." A little "tug" from his "gut" that calls to his conscious mind to look into the depths of his soul from whence wisdom arises.

I see wisdom as arising from the depths of our soul/sea. But there are monsters down there too! So you better watch out ... you might even hook Leviathan, and go the way of Ahab in Moby Dick. Pride leads to destruction by hooking you to your nemesis.

Proverbs 2 majors on the idea of being hooked by wisdom. What does wisdom do? She lifts up her voice to cry - a link with 'mouth'. The whole chapter ends with the adulterer - the one who follows the 'hook' (sin) which makes him 'crooked' inside - to death.

What does the adulterous women represent? In Jungian psychology, the unconscious mind presents itself to the conscious mind as the female anima in men, and as male animus in women. These are the masculine and feminine forms of the Latin word for "soul." Jung identified Sofia (Greek for Wisdom) as the most developed form of the anima in men. And since the Bible is presented from a male point of view, it presents the great danger of joining yourself to another man's wisdom and being unfaithful to the true wisdom that arises from the depths of the ocean of your own unconscious mind. This is the ultimate danger to any soul because you die when you lose connection with your own roots of inner wisdom.

Proverbs 4:23 Watch over your heart with all diligence, For from it flow the springs of life.

Proverbs 5:15 Drink water from your own cistern, And fresh water from your own well. 16 Should your springs be dispersed abroad, Streams of water in the streets? 17 Let them be yours alone, And not for strangers with you. 18 Let your fountain be blessed, And rejoice in the wife [anima] of your youth.

These verses teach that integrity is the key to life. Never blindly follow the teachings of another person. We should only "drink" the waters that flow form the depths of your own soul [anima]. It is a great thing to be stimulated by others in discourse, of course, but to think that their words are truer than the witness of our own soul will lead us in the path of deception, death, and destruction. This is the path of the "adulterous woman."

In Job 41 leviathan represents 'the sin' in mankind (sea), which is terribly hard (impossible) for a man to 'hook' out of himself. The chapter is jammed with rhetorical questions. But Christ came to allow Himself to be temporarily hooked in His death (for us) (connection again - the same way we are able to partake of His righteousness), that He might destroy leviathan in us - connection again!

Hummm ... I can see why you might think that, but what really does "sin" mean? Forget all the technical definitions for a moment, and think about the feelings that word evokes. Dark. Dirty. Mysterious. Dangerous. Overwhelming. It threatens to swallow you whole and drag you down into the depths. This is the "sea monster" of Jungian psychology. And it dwells in the oceanic unconscious mind we all share. Christ as Light (which symbolizes Consciousness) shows the way to remain connected to the depths while not being overwhelmed and consumed by them. He is the connection between Heaven and Earth, the Conscious and Unconscious aspects of the One Mind.

Isaiah captures this in a compact sentence: 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

{piercing: or, crossing like a bar}

On 'punish' leviathan - Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. {from prison...: or, away my distress and judgment: but, etc} {was he...: Heb. was the stroke upon him} 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,

{death: Heb. deaths}

Again in this passage we see the passive (tense) in the yieldedness of the one who has been hooked, who does not resist another's desire (will).


Proverbs 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; 2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, [and] apply thine heart to understanding; 3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, [and] liftest up thy voice for understanding; {liftest...: Heb. givest thy voice} 4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as [for] hid treasures; 5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. 6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth [cometh] knowledge and understanding. 7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: [he is] a buckler to them that walk uprightly. 8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints. 9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; [yea], every good path. 10 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; 11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: 12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil [man], from the man that speaketh froward things; 13 Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness; 14 Who rejoice to do evil, [and] delight in the frowardness of the wicked; 15 Whose ways [are] crooked, and [they] froward in their paths: 16 To deliver thee from the strange woman, [even] from the stranger [which] flattereth with her words; 17 Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God. 18 For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead. 19 None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life. 20 That thou mayest walk in the way of good [men], and keep the paths of the righteous. 21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. 22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. {rooted: or, plucked up}

the upright - those who can lift up their heads without the condemnation of sin/ignorance?

There is quite a lot about 'the way' 'paths' connected to righteousness (and the wrong way, connected to unrighteousness).

v 22 - In Christ, the transgressor in us (lethiathan) shall be 'hooked out' of us. Now, I'm not sure if that's the same Hebrew word, but the meaning is similar. We often have to use a tool to get under the weed we are trying to remove.

There's too much in those comments for me to process right now. I'll get back to them later.

Great chatting!

Richard

PS: Most of what I just wrote is new to my conscious mind. I've never interpreted the Bible like that before. I find it fascinating and deeply compelling. But I might change my mind by tomorrow for all I know since it's all so new to me. In other words, I'm just thinking out loud and haven't tested my interpretations as yet. But they do seem compelling ...

[kathryn]

Richard...I know this is a superficial way of looking at something on the BW, but just at a quick glance...I counted 80 references to gold as it is was given as a the heavenly pattern on earth, in the temple or "house", in the book of Exodus...spoke 2. Here we find an emphasis (spoke 2) on "separation", which certainly seems to fit with the theme. Would the "line" you speak of relate to the fishing line holding the hook?
I had a look at the number 80(yesod, foundation) in gematria...and the related number is given as 120 in the reference at the bottom. Interestingly enough, 120 is the gematria for the Temple Tax and the numbers of the 3 books on spoke 18( where we find the account of the fish/tax), also add to 120. (18, 40, 58) Tenuous I know...but thought I'd throw it out.

[Charisma]

Hi Kathryn and Richard,

I see we are all using our own unique peculiar language to express our thoughts.

I appreciate the feedback. I don't know if I'll ever speak 'BibleWheel' as fluently as you two, but I've learned there is a deal of explanation inside scripture about God's way of calling things, and of His reasoning, that tends to be the basis of my 'language'.

Richard, I will try to take your post roughly in your order.

I agree that when Christ said "it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness" he was including John because John had a role to play. But I don't see anything that makes me think that Jesus was "including John in the righteousness." I'm not even sure what that means. I think maybe this is a rather tenuous thread we are tugging at here?

Straight off, let me say that I understand what you mean later in your post when you say 'a stretch', and here, 'tenuous thread'. All I can say is that what I'm seeing with my spirit, is that paradox of being 'in Christ' while Christ is 'in me'.

That unity is supposed to be so complete that I am 'one with Him'. This is what I see in the coin, and the effect of John agreeing with Christ to baptise Him. If John had dug in his heels and said 'No! I need to be baptised by YOU! I WILL NOT BAPTISE YOU!' then there would have been no unity of understanding, of purpose or action, of heart and mind (etc). This yieldedness by John (or Peter, or me) is an essential prior ingredient to being accepted for inclusion in Christ.

Now, if in time to come this proves to be a most inadequate 'meaning' that's okay. I can only tell you how it strikes me at the moment.

In Matthew, and in the story, His righteousness is in the spotlight. This was Christ's 'word' to John, and it was the effect of Christ's word to Peter.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word that I have spoken unto you.

I know that's difficult to understand. I'm only recently beginning to tune into it, but the disciples were experiencing it all the time. Like when Jesus told them to cast their net on the other side after a night of fruitless fishing, and they couldn't land the catch without help from another boat. Peter's response was to fall on his face and tell Christ to 'depart from me for I am a sinful man'. (Luke 5:8) The 'word' somehow counteracts this feeling. I've had it happen to me when I was most uncomfortable about a situation, and the word of God was spoken to me - the truth of it both pained me healed me in that moment - and I felt totally released by it. Difficult to explain. That's my best shot!

Having said that, I know that while you are unclear about God, it's as if you're standing outside looking at a building, and even if someone tells you the temperature is perfect in every room, and the decor is blended with heavenly skill, the floors are like mirrors and the furnishings exquisitely comfortable, it may as well be an igloo or a prison or a mud hut. You don't 'see' it with an inside view.

I don't think that works because Jesus was born under the law and had to obey everything just like everyone else. He got no "indulgences" just because he was the son of the king.

I know that. But, that was the substance of His teaching to Peter - that the sons go free. My point is that like when He was baptised, He didn't exercise His position as the Son of God, to try and be excused from His responsibility to pay the tax; and partly, in so doing, He was identifying with Peter (instead). Perhaps that's a better way to put it?

Well, no. I can't see that Jesus did anything to "give Peter His righteousness" in that passage of Matt 17. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be stubborn or hard-headed (though that certainly is/was a personality trait of mine!). I just honestly don't see it. It feels like a stretch.

Okay I hear ya!

Yeah ... there's lots of stuff there I can see! [Bout time, eh? ]

The serpent/Messiah connection is quite mysterious. It even shows up in gematria:

Nachash (Serpent) = 358 = Maschiach (Messiah)

I've noticed in quite a few places in the gematria pages, that opposites turn up. Not reading Hebrew (yet - it's a hope one day I will be able to), I'm not sure how the negative is shown in the text, but, this connection doesn't surprise me at all.

The serpent represents the wisdom of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, while in Christ are hidden all the treasures (Proverbs 2:4) of wisdom and knowledge - the Tree of Life (Colossians 2:3)

Originally Posted by Charisma
This brings me to my second thought about the link between the 'hook' in to hook, and 'wisdom' to be hooked by 'wisdom'.

That's interesting. You and I are looking at it in opposite ways. When I made the connection between "hook" and "wisdom" it was based on the etymological root meaning of "hakah" (to wait) and "hokmah" (wisdom). The idea is that one can find wisdom only when waiting like a fisherman with his hook in the water. He must sit quietly and wait for a "bite." A little "tug" from his "gut" that calls to his conscious mind to look into the depths of his soul from whence wisdom arises.

There is definitely truth in the need for patience when seeking for wisdom. Using the fishing analogy, you are trusting in a fish to do the seeking, and to find your hook.

This is not necessarily how God works with everyone. Some people have to do the seeking, until they find the hook, and then they have to make a conscious choice to hang themselves on it, (yield to it) so that Christ can save them out of the situation which has caused them to seek Him.

I was looking at the pictogram for Lamed, (on Hebrew4Christians), and it looks like a shepherd's crook. It also has a sense of goad, drive, control, 'toward'. Those terms also fit with the drivenness of the seeker.

This being hooked out of the water, reminds me of Elisha being lifted out of the dungeon on ropes of old rags. He was hooked up out of the dungeon's mouth. (I don't know what that has to do with fish.) It also reminds me of Jonah being vomited out of the whale. I noticed there is a seventeen in the first reference for the great fish.

Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

I see wisdom as arising from the depths of our soul/sea. But there are monsters down there too! So you better watch out ... you might even hook Leviathan, and go the way of Ahab in Moby Dick. Pride leads to destruction by hooking you to your nemesis.

I would like to unpick this a little. Now it's my turn to be hard-headed but I hope that's okay!

As I said earlier, 'sea' refers to people - lots of people. Leviathan is in the people, until he is slain in Christ (the serpent on Moses pole was dead) when Christ died on the cross. Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Going back in time a bit, I think (I won't say 'believe', but I do very strongly hold to this thought), that when Lucifer was thrown out of heaven that there was anything for him to fall onto. He gets the name of 'prince of the power of the air', in Ephesians. This could also be about his spiritual power.

You speak of him as a 'sea monster'. In the sense that he is in the sea (people), that is true. But, I prefer to think of him as the original prehistoric monster 'dating' from long before Adam drew even his first breath. Of course, he turns up on earth, ready to corrupt God's great creation (man), but that is because, for all his 'wisdom', and 'knowledge', he cannot help himself ministering death.

(If we compare the other angels who appear in scripture, those who are working for God, all appear to announce life, or save life.)

'Pride leads to destruction by hooking you to your nemesis.'

This statement reminds me of a teaching by Jim Logan, in which he said the very same thing - that a person is more likely to be tempted by something (wrong) for which they already have a desire, or weakness, than something which doesn't test their integrity. It's an interesting observation.



contd.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard...I know this is a superficial way of looking at something on the BW, but just at a quick glance...I counted 80 references to gold as it is was given as a the heavenly pattern on earth, in the temple or "house", in the book of Exodus...spoke 2. Here we find an emphasis (spoke 2) on "separation", which certainly seems to fit with the theme. Would the "line" you speak of relate to the fishing line holding the hook?
I had a look at the number 80(yesod, foundation) in gematria...and the related number is given as 120 in the reference at the bottom. Interestingly enough, 120 is the gematria for the Temple Tax and the numbers of the 3 books on spoke 18( where we find the account of the fish/tax), also add to 120. (18, 40, 58) Tenuous I know...but thought I'd throw it out.

Yes, there are 80 verses that mention "gold" in Exodus - by for the most in any one book of the Bible. That correlates nicely with its debut in Genesis 2, where also we find the first occurrence of "shemot" - the Hebrew name of Genesis. And the gold is mentioned in reference the design of the Tabernacle, the "House" (Bet) of the LORD, so there are some intriguing connections here.

As for (18, 40, 58) - I do believe you meant (18, 40, 62)

But I agree, that connection is tenuous indeed. I've never explored the sums of the book numbers on the Spokes. They follow a regular pattern:

Sum of Book Numbers on Spoke n = 3 x n + 66

I doubt there is any insight to be found in this sequence.