The meaning of Matt 17:27 (Coin from the mouth of a fish)

[kathryn]

Hey Kathryn,

Believe me, "lean" is the way to go. Less is more! If you write too many words, the readers will often just skim over them and miss essential points, and then it takes even more words to clear up the confusion!

I hope I haven't come across as "easily provoked." I know that I am "venting" a bit but I try to keep my mind open to other points of view and indeed, that's what I'm enjoying so much now - I don't need to "defend" any doctrines or points of view! I can freely explore reality and speak as simply and clearly as possible without having to "protect the Bible" from those nasty skeptics. It feels great!

As for your friend who is "provoked easily when speaking of the nation of Israel." Has she been indoctrinated to hate "replacement theology?" I ask, because that is the most common indoctrination on that topic that I've seen out there. People are taught to have a visceral hatred of anyone who would deny the Dispensationalist doctrine concerning the distinction between Israel and the Church.

Hi Richard...I wasn't sure if you were waiting for me to answer this before proceeding...or just ruminating. Have no desire to interrupt any ruminating...but wanted to make sure.
I recognize and appreciate your open-mindedness...and no, my friend wasn't indoctrinated by replacement theology. She left organized religion almost as soon as she converted.
She still hasn't seen the difference between a spiritual Ishmael (of whom we all possess as the "carnal man") and a particular race of people. The Palestinians/Arabs are the bad guys regardless. (we won't go there though...ok people?!)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard...I wasn't sure if you were waiting for me to answer this before proceeding...or just ruminating. Have no desire to interrupt any ruminating...but wanted to make sure.
I recognize and appreciate your open-mindedness...and no, my friend wasn't indoctrinated by replacement theology. She left organized religion almost as soon as she converted.
She still hasn't seen the difference between a spiritual Ishmael (of whom we all possess as the "carnal man") and a particular race of people. The Palestinians/Arabs are the bad guys regardless. (we won't go there though...ok people?!)

Well, I was following your lead on this thread. I don't have much to say about the fish and coin. I'd have read and think about it before saying more, and I have some other stuff keeping me busy right now. But if you have something to say I'd be happy to respond.

As for the Middle East conflict - I'd be happy to stay away from that. It's in the news all the time, and I get tired of hearing about it.

[kathryn]

Well, I was following your lead on this thread. I don't have much to say about the fish and coin. I'd have read and think about it before saying more, and I have some other stuff keeping me busy right now. But if you have something to say I'd be happy to respond.

As for the Middle East conflict - I'd be happy to stay away from that. It's in the news all the time, and I get tired of hearing about it.

No...I have nothing to add at this point. I was waiting to see if you:
1. were willing to take the concepts into the biblewheel (pretending that my theory is true)
2. and if you were, beginning with spoke 18 where we find the account in Matthew , see how strongly the correlations may be with your knowledge of how spoke 18 relates to the rest of its structure.
At this point with it (the BW), I feel like I'm looking at something you've birthed, through the nursery room window. (and it's all but swaddled, with the exception of a few hairs sticking out the top and maybe a toe or two)
Far more than trying to demonstrate anything to anyone else at this point....I would really like a practical lesson on how to do my own search.
For instance, I see the primary type of the "fish" in the book of Joshua which falls on spoke 6. Disregarding my "assumption" on this...does spoke 6 relate to spoke 18 in any significant way?
And...no hurrry bro!

[Charisma]

Hi Kathryn and Richard,

Here are a few things from Spoke 18. I'm not going to try to make deductions from the numbers. I'm more of a themes person.

It seems to me that the essence of the story in Matthew 17:27 is an example of Christ fulfilling all righteousness. This was a necessary qualification for Him to have, to be the pure and spotless Lamb lifted up on the Tree, capable of slaying the serpent there.


1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


I did not include the verses about unrighteousness or 'not righteous' from 1 John.

What Christ did for Peter in the story in Matthew, was to bring him into a state of being righteous in the eyes of the law.


Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord [which] thou lettest down?

The whole chapter is about leviathan's qualities (the serpent) and how difficult it is to control or destroy him. Sin taxes us.


Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

Isaiah 17 - (Esther): God's lot for His enemies.

Isaiah 40 - (Matthew) - quite a few word connections to chapter 17.

Isaiah 62 - (1 John) Righteousness in Zion! (The city of the great King.)

[kathryn]

Thanks Charisma! I particularly like the comparison you made with "drawing out Levethian with a hook". I hadn't seen that. Thank you!
And I'm so glad you see in "themes". We all have different strengths in the area of perception and when we can look at scripture through the biblewheel, using those strengths without bias, it is most rewarding. Enjoying your participation so much!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

No...I have nothing to add at this point. I was waiting to see if you:
1. were willing to take the concepts into the biblewheel (pretending that my theory is true)
2. and if you were, beginning with spoke 18 where we find the account in Matthew , see how strongly the correlations may be with your knowledge of how spoke 18 relates to the rest of its structure.
At this point with it (the BW), I feel like I'm looking at something you've birthed, through the nursery room window. (and it's all but swaddled, with the exception of a few hairs sticking out the top and maybe a toe or two)
Far more than trying to demonstrate anything to anyone else at this point....I would really like a practical lesson on how to do my own search.
For instance, I see the primary type of the "fish" in the book of Joshua which falls on spoke 6. Disregarding my "assumption" on this...does spoke 6 relate to spoke 18 in any significant way?
And...no hurrry bro!

Hey thar sistar!

I wrote a whole book of "practical lessons" on how to use the Bible Wheel, but I think it would be great to do another from my "new" point of view.

The first thing is to try to distinguish between the "incidentals" and the "essentials." And that's no easy task! So where shall we start? A good place is to ask if the appearance of the fishhook (Tzaddi) and the mouth (Peh) in the Matt 17:27 is a "mere coincidence." If it were found in isolation, I might think so. But it turns out that Matthew has an extremely strong set of correlations with the Spokes of the Wheel and the Hebrew alphabet. I documented this in my section called [Inner Wheels] > Matthew. The conections are truly very striking, and this gives me confidence that the appearance of Tzaddi + Pey at the juncture of chapters 17 and 18 is not just a "coincidence." And indeed, the verse speaks of opening the mouth of the fish, and the idea of "opening" is expressed by another Pey KeyWord patach often found in conjunction with Pey in the Alphabetic Verses. For example:

AV Prov 31:26 She openeth (patach) her mouth (pey) with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

So I feel confident we have good reason to use our time to look at this further.

The entire pericope reads as follows:

Matthew 17:24 When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?" 25 He said, "Yes." And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?" 26 Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free. 27 "Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you."

Hummm ... I really don't have any insight into this passage right now. But now it's in my mind, so maybe something will click when I'm doing something else. I'll let you know if I come up with anything.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Kathryn and Richard,

Here are a few things from Spoke 18. I'm not going to try to make deductions from the numbers. I'm more of a themes person.

It seems to me that the essence of the story in Matthew 17:27 is an example of Christ fulfilling all righteousness. This was a necessary qualification for Him to have, to be the pure and spotless Lamb lifted up on the Tree, capable of slaying the serpent there.


1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

I did not include the verses about unrighteousness or 'not righteous' from 1 John.

I agree that Matthew is strongly associated with the concept of Righteousness. Indeed, this is very prominent in all the books on Spoke 18. But I don't see anything in Matthew 17 that links to the idea of Christ fulfilling all righteousness. The word "righteous" doesn't even appear in that chatper. Sorry.

What Christ did for Peter in the story in Matthew, was to bring him into a state of being righteous in the eyes of the law.

What did Christ do for Peter in Matthew 17?

Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord [which] thou lettest down?

The whole chapter is about leviathan's qualities (the serpent) and how difficult it is to control or destroy him. Sin taxes us.

I don't see that in the "whole chapter." The first 12 verses of Matthew 17 speak of the Transfiguration. The only mention of the fish and hook is in the last few verses of that chapter.

I hope my response doesn't frustrate you! I'm just trying to make sense of your observations.

Great chatting!

[kathryn]

Richard:
I wrote a whole book of "practical lessons" on how to use the Bible Wheel, but I think it would be great to do another from my "new" point of view.


I'm not very good at reading books on "practical lessons" Richard. I hate to bring up the learning disability thing again...but what may see practical to you, ain't necessarily so for me. This is the only way to do it for me, as I learn by example...so your introductory post is just great from my perspective! Thank you!
Also...just want to remind you that we are going to be going into an area where we're searching out the hidden...or not so obvious. Regardless of how we "see" the correlations now...they might become more obvious as we use the biblewheel to do the searching. Again...thank you!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard:
I wrote a whole book of "practical lessons" on how to use the Bible Wheel, but I think it would be great to do another from my "new" point of view.


I'm not very good at reading books on "practical lessons" Richard. I hate to bring up the learning disability thing again...but what may see practical to you, ain't necessarily so for me. This is the only way to do it for me, as I learn by example...so your introductory post is just great from my perspective! Thank you!
Also...just want to remind you that we are going to be going into an area where we're searching out the hidden...or not so obvious. Regardless of how we "see" the correlations now...they might become more obvious as we use the biblewheel to do the searching. Again...thank you!

Understood.

Very cool.

I look forward to seaching things out with you.

But right now ... I don't have any new insights to share. But if you ask me a question, who knows what will pop out of my mouth?

Oh - one little point. The word "hook" in hebrew is very similar to the same word in English ...

2443 hK'x; chakkah {khak-kaw'}

Meaning: 1) hook, angle, hook fastened in jaw, fish hook

And it is from the root ...

2442 hk'x' chakah {khaw-kaw'}

Meaning: 1) to wait, wait for, await 1a) (Qal) to wait for 1b) (Piel) 1b1) to wait, tarry 1b2) to wait (in ambush) 1b3) to wait for, long for

... which might also be the root of ...

2451 hm'k.x' chokmah {khok-maw'}

Meaning: 1) wisdom 1a) skill (in war) 1b) wisdom (in administration) 1c) shrewdness, wisdom 1d) wisdom, prudence (in religious

Wisdom! Hummm ... me like that word.

[kathryn]

Hey thar sistar!

I wrote a whole book of "practical lessons" on how to use the Bible Wheel, but I think it would be great to do another from my "new" point of view.

The first thing is to try to distinguish between the "incidentals" and the "essentials." And that's no easy task! So where shall we start? A good place is to ask if the appearance of the fishhook (Tzaddi) and the mouth (Peh) in the Matt 17:27 is a "mere coincidence." If it were found in isolation, I might think so. But it turns out that Matthew has an extremely strong set of correlations with the Spokes of the Wheel and the Hebrew alphabet. I documented this in my section called [Inner Wheels] > Matthew. The conections are truly very striking, and this gives me confidence that the appearance of Tzaddi + Pey at the juncture of chapters 17 and 18 is not just a "coincidence." And indeed, the verse speaks of opening the mouth of the fish, and the idea of "opening" is expressed by another Pey KeyWord patach often found in conjunction with Pey in the Alphabetic Verses. For example:

AV Prov 31:26 She openeth (patach) her mouth (pey) with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

So I feel confident we have good reason to use our time to look at this further.

The entire pericope reads as follows:

Matthew 17:24 When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?" 25 He said, "Yes." And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?" 26 Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free. 27 "Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you."

Hummm ... I really don't have any insight into this passage right now. But now it's in my mind, so maybe something will click when I'm doing something else. I'll let you know if I come up with anything.

Hi Richard...that is very facinating about the hebrew letter/tzaddi hook being a possible off-shoot of wisdom. Assuming it is just for a moment, could we put it through another little test and see if we could use that interchageably in the levethian type?
Also, would it then be connected to righteousness? Personally, I don't believe anyone has ever fully defined what "righteousness" means, because we're still so crooked or twisted in our thinking about these concepts. To me...it is more like a state of harmony...or literally "right ness" . Has nothing to do with a moral state....although because it is harmony, it resonates with the harmony placed within us. Could we say the levethian was brought to the surface with a hook/righteousness? Or....the crooked made "straight"...as it speaks of the highway in the book of Isaiah?