The meaning of Matt 17:27 (Coin from the mouth of a fish)

**Bob May** · 11-18-2011, 12:01 PM

Hi all,

I am having such a hard time choosing what to use to explain things with.
Jesus returns in a cloud.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

The two witnesses, Elijah and Moses, encompass the entire OT. Law and prophets.
Richard qouted St. Gregory in the Bible Wheel book as saying, "In the old the new concealed and in the new the old revealed."

The witnesses go beyond this to... In the old, the new revealed.

It is by seeing that the OT is speaking to us, personally, one on one that we enter the promised land.

I have mentioned that I had four visions that seemed to make a whole thing. Two together on consecutive days and then another two on consecutive days years later.
I am just recently seeing a pattern to them.

I have described two of them #2 was being pulled up into that Blue/white ocean of light.
#4 was the coat of many colors. A Joseph experience.
#1 was seeing and angel appear in front of me.

I will describe #3, as it along with the chapter Matt. 17 shed light on what I believe is crossing over into the promised land.

My teacher John was an amazing man. He was an accomplished Engineer (retired) and had studied occult, mysticism and bible for over 40 years when I met him.

Just a background to understand were I was coming from at the time.
After attending his church for several years, maybe 10 or so, it became apparent that I/we were looking up to him in a way that students look up to Guru's. Not good, and I knew it. I had been using at that time the term Bretheren as a way to describe fellow believers. Not in public, but just a way to understand it to myself. So the thought foremost in my mind at that time was "Is John just one of the Bretheren?"
That being said, and the fact that I had found in Genesis a place where I believed it was talking about a specific experience I had in meditation. Namely Jacob wrestling with the angel and being wounded in the thigh. After the vision of the angel I had had trouble meditatiing. Each time I would try, My inner thigh would tighten up and felt as if the "Sinew was shortened" exactly as in the Jacob story.

Ge 32:31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh. This is exactly what I had done. I had stopped meditating (halted) upon my thigh.

I asked John about this connection? He had always used the analogy that the bible was a roadmap. I asked if what I had seen was the way that worked and he said that it was.
I put it into the back of my mind and kind of "took it with a grain of salt" so to speak.

This is all just background without which my vision will not make sense.

I went to and early morning prayer session with three friends in the library at our church.
As we finished the prayer, we just sat and meditated silently.
I felt an energy coming into my head and flowing through me out my feet. It was love. I felt like a conduit and thought I would think of other church members and in that way send the love towards them.
As I went through many church members that lived out of town I became aware I was running out of people.
Then I saw John, My teachers face in front of me and inside my head I thought, No Not John.
Again inside my head, I turned away from his image. Then I though "Why not John?" and I turned back toward him.
I watched as a body grew down from the head I had at first seen. It was "cloudlike" at first like white light.
Then, looking closer it appeared to be very distinct, like a pen and ink drawing written in light in front of me.
But there was something different about it. I could see love coming out of his eyes. I saw him in profile in front of me facing toward my right. Then I noticed his left arm was bent at the elbow and extended to my right (his front) as if he was shaking hands with someone.
Then I saw that there was a man standing facing him and his hand was holding John's hand. As if they were shaking hands but not moving. The man standing facing John did not have features but was rather composed of fibers of light. Like as if you took a handfull of straw but the fibers were microscopically thin if I looked at them closely.
This light of love coming from John's eyes was reflected in the face of this other man. Though I saw no features of this other man's face I had the distinct feeling he was saying to John, "Well done", referring to me.
When I came out the this meditation it hit me what had happened. I had seen Jesus. I was completely stunned. I told my friends and we discussed it. Then I went straight home and opened the bible to the chapter I knew I had "found myself" in a few years before. Gen 32:31
I began to read and I came across this verse.

Ge 35:7 And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother.

I was even more stunned. Not only was the bible telling me what had happened a half hour after it had happened. It also used the exact word I used "Brethren/Brother" to answer the question that was haunting me. Was John only one of the bretheren?

I went to John's house and told him what I had experienced and he laughed at me. He was overjoyed at what I had experienced.
I was confused and asked him how does that happen. Do the words change or what? And will various people all see their teachers with Jesus etc.,
His answer was that some people will see some things and others will see other things. Certain things will apply more to one person than another.

The next day in the evening I was discussing this with my wife and friend Mark and the thought came into my mind,..."If John is one of the bretheren than Jesus....."
I did not even get the chance to finish my thought and the Coat of Many Colors fell on me.

Not until years later did I connect the two experiences with this line from the story of Joseph.

Ge 41:25 And Joseph said unto Pharaoh, The dream of Pharaoh is one: God hath showed Pharaoh what he is about to do.

Ge 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

The two visions above were the second pair of visions which came two on consecutive days and then again two on consecutive days years later.

1. I saw an angel.
2. the next day I was pulled up into that Ocean of Blue/White liquid Lightning.

3. I saw John (law and prophets) standing with Jesus.
4. The Coat of Many Colors fell on me.

Now we are looking at Matthew chapter 17 which starts off with the Transfiguration, and ends with the fish being pulled out of water into air.
I've shown some of the connections with the fish and the entering into the promised land and sonship etc. Inheritance being the coat and 17 being the age of Joseph when he recieved the coat.

But applying it to ourselves is the important thing.
Not all have visions but all should HEAR.
The most important thing to a vision is what you learn from it and I see a pattern here.
Matthew is showing the same pattern as my personal experience.
And the Vision IS ONE.

It is the crossing over into the Promised land. The realization that God Speaks to us individually.
"Surely the lord is in this place and I knew it not."
Jacob saw it and Joseph wore it.

It may be that we get it from the OT Law and Prophets (Oracles of God, or from the New Testament but what has happened to us comes all at once,...but we do not realize it all at once.

We keep our lamps burning by the two pipes coming from the two witnesses.
The Manna stopped when they entered the Promised land because manna means "what is it?"
Entering the Promised land we KNOW WHAT IT IS!!!

De 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

This is not a command. It is a promise. We will hear him.This is the Midst of the Covenant.
The very essence of the Covenant.

The manna stops (we don't know what it is.)

The two witnesses pour oil (anointing) into the two pipes. (We are consciously aware that Jesus is speaking to us in the OT) We look for it.
This is crossing the Jordan.

Bob

**kathryn** · 11-18-2011, 01:18 PM

Bob:But there was something different about it. I could see love coming out of his eyes. I saw him in profile in front of me facing toward my right. Then I noticed his left arm was bent at the elbow and extended to my right (his front) as if he was shaking hands with someone.

That's an amazing account Bob. Thank you so much for sharing it. I want to meditate on it some more...but I wanted to explain one detail of it, you may not have understood.
You will note that the Israelites had to stay approx. 2000 cubits behind the ark. This is the time duration of the Baptism of Fire or the Age of Pentecost/refining of the ekklesia. A cubit is the measurement between the joint of the elbow and the hand. 2000 cubits are: 50 (pentecost/Jubilee) x 40 (wilderness testing). When the time is "at hand".. it is when the distance has been measured from the joint of the elbow to the hand.

**kathryn** · 11-18-2011, 01:29 PM

The Feast of Pentecost has not yet been utterly fulfilled. Jesus utterly fulfilled all of the Spring feasts at the Cross and provided the legal fulfillment or requirement (as the 1st goat of the atonement sacrifice) so that the "living sacrifice" of the 2nd goat could begin. (sent into the wilderness) When the 2nd goat comes up out of the wilderness, leaning on her lover (Song of Solomon), the Pentecostal offering (2 loaves of leavened barley bread placed in the oven) will be complete.

The ekklesia are brought out of the wilderness in three squadrons....corresponding to the harvests of barley, wheat and grapes.

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 11-18-2011, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by kathryn

The Feast of Pentecost has not yet been utterly fulfilled. Jesus utterly fulfilled all of the Spring feasts at the Cross and provided the legal fulfillment or requirement (as the 1st goat of the atonement sacrifice) so that the "living sacrifice" of the 2nd goat could begin. (sent into the wilderness) When the 2nd goat comes up out of the wilderness, leaning on her lover (Song of Solomon), the Pentecostal offering (2 loaves of leavened barley bread placed in the oven) will be complete.

The ekklesia are brought out of the wilderness in three squadrons....corresponding to the harvests of barley, wheat and grapes.

I've always thought of Pentecost as part of the Spring feasts, because you count the omer from Firstfruits till Pentecost, so it's connected. It seems to me that the break in typology happens between Pentecost and the three fall feasts. And since Pentecost was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, I don't see why you would think it was not fulfilled.

**Bob May** · 11-18-2011, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by kathryn

Bob:But there was something different about it. I could see love coming out of his eyes. I saw him in profile in front of me facing toward my right. Then I noticed his left arm was bent at the elbow and extended to my right (his front) as if he was shaking hands with someone.

That's an amazing account Bob. Thank you so much for sharing it. I want to meditate on it some more...but I wanted to explain one detail of it, you may not have understood.
You will note that the Israelites had to stay approx. 2000 cubits behind the ark. This is the time duration of the Baptism of Fire or the Age of Pentecost/refining of the ekklesia. A cubit is the measurement between the joint of the elbow and the hand. This is 50 (pentecost/Jubilee) x 40 (wilderness testing). When the time is "at hand".. it is when the distance has been measured from the joint of the elbow to the hand.

Hi Kathryn,

It takes some meditation. I've been at it for over 20 years and it still keeps opening itself up to me.
Just this week because of our talks I've seen the relationship to Matthew 17 and Revelations 11 and the capstone prophecies in Richard's book etc.
And no I hadn't noticed the relationship with the cubit, though I knew how a cubit was measured, elbow to fingertips. And I did not catch the "at hand" implication either. So, thank you for that.
But the 2000 has a great significance also now that you pointed it out.
2 is Beth and thousand is final. It is the House of God.

Re 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth

Again the connections are many.
Mt 11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
The measuring device is a reed.

A reed shaken in the wind has a voice. They are called woodwind instruments. So here is an image of a man standing (as two the law and prophets) in the middle of the Jordan river speaking the words of God.
And we "measure" as to whether we (the temple) are hearing the voice of God. And whether our hearts (altar where sacrifices are burnt) burns within us when he speaks.

Lu 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
Lu 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Good stuff,
Bob

**kathryn** · 11-18-2011, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by RAM

I've always thought of Pentecost as part of the Spring feasts, because you count the omer from Firstfruits till Pentecost, so it's connected. It seems to me that the break in typology happens between Pentecost and the three fall feasts. And since Pentecost was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, I don't see why you would think it was not fulfilled.

Hi Richard...Jesus is referred to as the first of the first fruits.(the first to "ripen". ) When the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples at Pentecost, it was only the downpayment or earnest of the Spirit given, not the Fullness. The cloven tongues appeared on the head but full immersion was required to deal with the condition of iniquity in the "old man" through the second goat, who had the sins of the people placed on it and sent into the wilderness.
This down payment or earnest of the Spirit was given to lead them through the wilderness/Baptism of Fire,(full immersion) which would form them as firstfruits who could then "sanctify" (as first fruits)the rest of the harvest. (these are the "12" from every tribe, who are called back to the midst, after the ekklesia has passed over , and return carrying the stones from the midst on their shoulders)
The Pentecostal offering must be two loaves "risen" , with the action of the leaven (inquity) stopped by the fire. Jesus provided the pattern and requirement for the firstfruits and this is not accomplished until the ekklesia emerge "clean"/perfected, from the "oven" or wilderness...or the omer (50) x 40

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 11-18-2011, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by kathryn

Hi Richard...Jesus is referred to as the first of the first fruits.(the first to "ripen". ) When the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples at Pentecost, it was only the downpayment or earnest of the Spirit given, not the Fullness. The cloven tongues appeared on the head but full immersion was required to deal with the condition of iniquity in the "old man" through the second goat, who had the sins of the people placed on it and sent into the wilderness.
This down payment or earnest of the Spirit was given to lead them through the wilderness/Baptism of Fire,(full immersion) which would form them as firstfruits who could then "sanctify" (as first fruits)the rest of the harvest. (these are the "12" from every tribe, who are called back to the midst, after the ekklesia has passed over , and return carrying the stones from the midst on their shoulders)
The Pentecostal offering must be two loaves "risen" , with the action of the leaven (inquity) stopped by the fire. Jesus provided the pattern and requirement for the firstfruits and this is not accomplished until the ekklesia emerge "clean"/perfected, from the "oven" or wilderness...or the omer (50) x 40

Hey there kathryn,

That's a very elaborate theory you have going there! But where did you get your initial idea about the spirit as a "downpayment" of a future "fuller" filling. When Paul talked about the spirit as an "earnest" or "downpayment" he was talking about being presently filled with the Spirit as an earnest of a future bodily redemption.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The meaning of the "earnest" of the spirit and its relation to the "redemption of the body" is confirmed in 2 Corinthians:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle [physical body] were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Where do you get the idea that believers are not now filled with the Spirit? The Bible constantly talks about believers being filled with the Holy Spirit:

Acts 2:4 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Why do you say they were not really filled?

And when you wrote "50 x 40" were you hinting at 2000 years after Christ as indicating some big end time event is going to happen sometime soon?

Great chatting!

Richard

**kathryn** · 11-18-2011, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by RAM

Hey there kathryn,

That's a very elaborate theory you have going there! But where did you get your initial idea about the spirit as a "downpayment" of a future "fuller" filling. When Paul talked about the spirit as an "earnest" or "downpayment" he was talking about being presently filled with the Spirit as an earnest of a future bodily redemption.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
until
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The meaning of the "earnest" of the spirit and its relation to the "redemption of the body" is confirmed in 2 Corinthians:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle [physical body] were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Where do you get the idea that believers are not now filled with the Spirit? The Bible constantly talks about believers being filled with the Holy Spirit:

Acts 2:4 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Why do you say they were not really filled? I guess I'm not articulating this correctly. Sorry. A first fruit, as Jesus was the pattern, is perfected (sinless) and ascended (risen) to be presented in Heaven to the Father. . As I mentioned in my last post...when Jesus fulfilled the wave sheaf offering, He ascended to the Father, presenting Himself as the wave sheaf offering.In doing this, He provided the pattern for the rest of the first fruits who must also "die" (to self) and ascend (rise) to the Father to be presented. We cannot fulfill this until the condition of iniquity has been dealt with. (removed)You will note that the Israelites were told to sanctify themselves at the start of the crossing...and when they completed it, were declared "clean". That word means perfected. Until the 3rd day crossing is complete, we have been "imputed" with righteousness...but not "infused" . The consummation can't happen until this occurs.
Jesus accomplished the first part of the atonement sacrifice in the death work of the 1st goat. He was the seed who died and fell into the ground . He now completes the sacrifice in and through the 2nd goat....the living work...in His corporate Son or "seed(s)". The 1st century believers were in "seed" form. They had to be planted with the tares in the field and both grow until the "heads" are formed. It is not until the tares are removed,(our carnal mindsets) that this moves into the realm of the physical body and we are given our tabernacle from heaven.

And when you wrote "50 x 40" were you hinting at 2000 years after Christ as indicating some big end time event is going to happen sometime soon? I wasn't hinting at anything Richard. I was simply stating what scripture says. Rather than get into any of my interpretation of what is coming, I would rather scripture speak for itself and let people draw their own conclusions when they can see how typology is not of private interpretation.

Great chatting!

Richard

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 11-18-2011, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by RAM

Why do you say they were not really filled? I guess I'm not articulating this correctly. Sorry. A first fruit, as Jesus was the pattern, is perfected (sinless) and ascended (risen) to be presented in Heaven to the Father. . As I mentioned in my last post...when Jesus fulfilled the wave sheaf offering, He ascended to the Father, presenting Himself as the wave sheaf offering.In doing this, He provided the pattern for the rest of the first fruits who must also "die" (to self) and ascend (rise) to the Father to be presented. We cannot fulfill this until the condition of iniquity has been dealt with. (removed)You will note that the Israelites were told to sanctify themselves at the start of the crossing...and when they completed it, were declared "clean". That word means perfected. Until the 3rd day crossing is complete, we have been "imputed" with righteousness...but not "infused" . The consummation can't happen until this occurs.
Jesus accomplished the first part of the atonement sacrifice in the death work of the 1st goat. He was the seed who died and fell into the ground . He now completes the sacrifice in and through the 2nd goat....the living work...in His corporate Son or "seed(s)". The 1st century believers were in "seed" form. They had to be planted with the tares in the field and both grow until the "heads" are formed. It is not until the tares are removed,(our carnal mindsets) that this moves into the realm of the physical body and we are given our tabernacle from heaven.

Hey there Kathryn,

You said: "We cannot fulfill this until the condition of iniquity has been dealt with. (removed)."
How does that relate to the Biblical teaching that Jesus fully removed all our sin?

You said: "You will note that the Israelites were told to sanctify themselves at the start of the crossing...and when they completed it, were declared "clean". That word means perfected."
Could you please cite the verses you are talking about?

You said: Until the 3rd day crossing is complete, we have been "imputed" with righteousness...but not "infused"
Where do you get the idea that there is a difference between righteousness being "imputed" vs. "infused?" Does the Bible talk about righteousness being "infused" anywhere?

Originally Posted by RAM

And when you wrote "50 x 40" were you hinting at 2000 years after Christ as indicating some big end time event is going to happen sometime soon? I wasn't hinting at anything Richard. I was simply stating what scripture says. Rather than get into any of my interpretation of what is coming, I would rather scripture speak for itself and let people draw their own conclusions when they can see how typology is not of private interpretation.

Well, if the Bible could speak for itself, we'd have to find something else to talk about!

And if typology is not of "private interpretation" then I would think you could have given a simple answer to my question. Your evasiveness makes it feel like you have opinions that you cannot support from Scripture. And for that matter, where does the Bible say "or the omer (50) x 40?" Why mulitply the 50 days of omer by the number 40? The Bible doesn't say to do that.

Now I do believe there is some objectively verifiable typology that is not of "private interpreation" like the basic Body/Temple and Christ/Lamb stuff, but you have taken it light years beyond that into an area that seems entirely private and personal in the sense that no one else has ever, as far as I know, developed it in precisely the same fashion as you.

All the best,

Richard

**kathryn** · 11-18-2011, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by RAM

Hey there Kathryn,

You said: "We cannot fulfill this until the condition of iniquity has been dealt with. (removed)."
How does that relate to the Biblical teaching that Jesus fully removed all our sin? He paid the debt for our sin by His death on the Cross. He then removes it, in and through us, as we cast down the vain imaginations, taking them captive to the obedience of Christ. (the first goat). The death of the first goat of the atonement sacrifice provides the legal requirement of the Law, for the living work to begin and complete the sacrifice.

You said: "You will note that the Israelites were told to sanctify themselves at the start of the crossing...and when they completed it, were declared "clean". That word means perfected."
Could you please cite the verses you are talking about? I will get the quote when I finish this. I still havent figured out how to include a site without losing my place in my post It is Jos.4:1 http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Data...&cnum=4&vnum=1

You said: Until the 3rd day crossing is complete, we have been "imputed" with righteousness...but not "infused"
Where do you get the idea that there is a difference between being righteousness being "imputed" vs. "infused?" Does the Bible talk about righteousness being "infused" anywhere?No...not in those terms...but the Bride has to make herself ready and she will be without spot and wrinkle when she's perfected. There will be more examples...I just can't think of them right now.

Well, if the Bible could speak for itself, we'd have to find something else to talk about!

And if typology is not of "private interpretation" then I would think you could have given a simple answer to my question. Your evasiveness makes it feel like you have opinions that you cannot support from Scripture. Well...I have to start somewhere and I've spent all week trying to lay a bit of a foundation so we can take my "theory" to the biblewheel. As I said...I don't come to the forum without having put everything through a rigorous testing. I'm not being evasive at all. I simply would like to establish some of the primary types before getting into it. At this point...anything I had to say about it would be like waving a red flag in front of a bull....er ...ram

Now I do believe there is some objectively verifiable typology that is not of "private interpreation" like the basic Body/Temple and Christ/Lamb stuff, but you have taken it light years beyond that into an area that seems entirely private and personal in the sense that no one else has ever, as far as I know, developed it in precisely the same fashion as you. would you be so suspicious if it were a scientist who had discovered something in the area of quantum physics? And...who said I was the only one?

All the best,

Richard