Hey there Kathryn,
I began answering this message a few days ago but got distracted by a bunch of work I had to do on the site. I think I thought I had completed the answer but just found out I had not. In any case, the Auto-Save feature kept what I had written so I can pick up where I left off.
I was confused by your response. Here is what I had written, in reference to the words highlighted red above:Why the sudden change? I thought I gave you plenty of biblical reasons for my understanding. Why don't you respond to them? I did not say "I believe none of this." I gave you the same reasons I would have given when I was a Christian. You invited me to answer that post, so I did. Why are you now you are acting like you don't want to answer me?Now I remember why I put off answering this ... I got the impression that you didn't really want to talk to me about it.
I can understand that. No one likes having all their ideas challenged, and I've been doing a lot of that. It can get pretty frustrating I suppose.
No...I love being challenged! I want all the sand-papering I can get! I'm pretty ruthless about pulling down vain imaginations (desire to get my sorry Ass out of the Fire as soon as possible story again:-) So...bring on the challenges! (there ought to be a little "mooning" icon with some licking flames )
Sorry I gave the impression that I didn't want to talk to you about it. I guess, again, I wasn't articulating myself properly. What I was asking for, regarding biblical witnesses to your understanding...was taking the Atonement/Leprosy sacrifice of the two goats/two doves... (which I was demonstrating as representing the two works of Christ..the Death work accomplished by Jesus Christ, and the Living work accomplished by Christ in His corporate son)....and giving me 2 or 3 witnesses in scripture, beginning with the Law (in context), which demonstrated your understanding. This is the biblical method given in determining truth...and I had asked you a few times what your criteria was, because I had given at least 3 (through the 3 phases of redemption) in former posts and you didnt respond to my question.
You were certainly giving some good reasons why you were having difficulty with it, and nothing wrong with that...but I was hoping for a more in-depth response. I had presented a pretty clear foundation of the types and showing how they progressed into the NT.
You asked why , if the goats/doves were so important...why they weren't mentioned in the NT..and I responded with a clear answer. When I did this....you just said you "didn't believe that that is why the Dove descended on Jesus..because the Dove represented the Holy Spirit. etc. The whole thread previous to this, went into alot more detail and expansion of the types...and I was assuming that while you probably didn't meditate on any of them, you had read through them even if it was a quick scan, because it was the continuation of a conversation we were having that you said you were finding "stimulating". (and, you were reading through every thread on the forum, even during the busy/new site time) Just trying to 'splain my response here.
I've noticed, in the past two years...that we will get so far in a back and forth...and it stops (and when I've made a valid point, with some valid biblical witnesses). And again...you were responding to all the others on the forum.
I said that there was no point continuing if the foundation in the Law couldn't be established...meaning that if you couldn't "see" it...there was no point in going on to explain anything else . It is the Key that unlocks the rest of the whole theme of the Atonement(and the whole process of redemption) , right into the book of Revelation.
If we don't understand where the plummet line measures the "small beginnings" in how Jesus fulfilled the Law...there is NO hope in understanding the fulfillment at the end of Scripture, in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
The mistake I made, was in not opening the type wide enough, to explain the "bird" as being the Dove. To do that I would have had to go into alot more detail...and I was trying to be concise as possible, as still keep it brief.
I hope you will give me the benefit of the doubt before concluding that what I am saying has "no foundation" in scripture . The study of typology has to be slowly built on from that plummet line...and it takes more than one post to explain it. I have stated that I don't bring anything to the forum, without being able to substantiate it and after its gone through a rigorous testing. Doesn't mean that I don't make errors...but hopefully you'll first consider it might be a typo...or an omission before you judge it. (otherwise..I will have to whip out that "wet but still-reasonably-firm noodle, and give you a good one! So...my error...and it's good these things happen, because we are learning to know how we each other communicate and think and it's ALL good
There is a problem with your interpretation. The Hebrew word for "dove" - yonah - does not appear anywhere in Leviticus 14:1-10. The word used there is tzippur which denotes a small bird like a sparrow. Therefore, the "two birds" are not "doves" like you say in your post, so now your idea that the Spirit descended on Jesus in the form of a dove "in order to identify the Law that He was fulfilling" has no foundation in Scripture. Of course...you're absolutely right about the bird vs the dove. But, many times in typology, it is what is left out can be an important clue and leads us to a greater understanding through another type which explains the primary type in more detail. The word as you said, in the sacrifice for the cleansing of Leprosy, just means "bird". (not necessarily "sparrow" but that is implied too)
You mentioned that the Hebrew word for Dove is Yonah, which isn't in the Lev. account.
Jonah as a type, (Dove) reveals the TWO aspects of the TWO works of Christ..and witnesses twice to the overlapping of the two laws of the Atonement sacrifice and the sacrifice for the cleansing of Leprosy,( in the Baptism account). It is the Holy Spirit (represented by the Dove) who leads the second goat of whom Jesus is the antitype, who is taken into the wilderness (by the hand of a "fit man" ..Holy Spirit)to be tested.
As I mentioned..the account of Jonah (as the type of Dove), manifests both types of the death/living sacrifices (of the TWO works of Christ) of both the goats/and "birds". I will only give a brief outline of this. (there is more)
Jonah was in the stomach of the great Fish for 3 days and 3 nights, representing the death work of the 1st goat/1st bird....as Jesus who was in the "belly of the earth" for 3 days/3 nights. When the Jews asked Jesus for a sign ...He gave them the sign of Jonah 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the Fish.
They cast lots to see who was causing the trouble on the ship, and the lot fell to Jonah to be thrown overboard. (into death and resurrection (out of the fish). Lots were cast to determine which goat would die.
Jonah indwelt the great fish...The Holy Spirit (as Dove) indwells our flesh.
After Jonah's experience of the 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish (as the heart of the earth) ...He was given a SECOND call to preach to Ninevah, prophetic of the SECOND work of Christ in second goat.(type of Christ in His corporate son)
Because of the additional information given in the Jonah type, and the overlapping of the two types of goats/birds in the Baptism account , we can take from the type portrayed in the Jonah story, that the "bird"(s) were a type of the Dove who descended on Jesus' shoulder at the Baptism. Now, you should be able to see how the Atonement sacrifice and sacrifice for the cleansing of Leprosy, is expressing the TWO works of Christ .
But even if there were a dove in Leviticus 14:6 it wouldn't prove that your typology was correct.Well...if you want to keep studying this with me, I hope to show you differently. In the meantime...please give me your interpretation of the two sacrifices...with two or three witnesses beginning with the Law explaining the types and their subsequent enlargement/fulfillment from two or three witnesses ...preferably demonstrating the progression through the 1st, 2nd and 3rd day, demonstrating your understanding. I can demonstrate mine through all 3...and through many other examples than I've already given. Looking forward to a fruitful study!
We can't just make up typological connections between anything and everything.We surely can't! And besides, Leviticus 14:6 speaks about the law for cleansing leprosy! It has no direct connection with the "law of redemption" seen in the death and resurrection of Christ. But it does have a very direct connection! Jesus defeated mortality/death at the Cross...Leprosy represents our condition of mortality caused by the sin of Adam imputed on us (as the sins of the people were imputed on the second goat)...and very definately, it is included in the Laws of Redemption. Any such connection is very speculative and the details will vary from one interpreter to another. Again..there is no speculation in this. If you don't see the leprosy/mortality connection, let me know if you need more evidence on that
This is the real problem I have with your methodology. As far as I can tell, it is entirely idiosyncratic - unique to you and/or to those taught by the teacher you follow. I don't follow any teacher, although I certainly keep up to date with all those I know who are receiving revelation as this unfolds. Stephen confirmed what I had already been given; enlarged on much of it...but it has since been enlarged in me, in areas that he has never taught on, to my knowledge anyway
I would never come to the same conclusion by an independent studythat's an assumption I think. Have you ever done an in-depth study on the Law of Moses in how it reveals the person and work of Jesus Christ? and if we put a thousand competent Bible students in their own cells for a year, I doubt any of them would emerge with the paticular doctrines you have relating to Leviticus 14 and the baptism of Christ by John.well...we'd have to test that wouldn't we? Knowledge is increasing. We're all having the veil removed in some pretty exciting ways every day. This is the definition of a "private interpretation.Well...I can name you several who didn't know each other from a hole in the ground...but who came to the same understanding completely independent of one another. (and have witnessed it now, with 3 other people on the forum whom I didn't know, some as recently as a week ago.
Now I hope you don't get too frustrated with me.never! You're just too darn lovable! I know folks don't like their ideas challenged. I'm not out to "sink you ship" and maybe I'm missing something. So don't let my opinions disturb you in any way.I promise I won't . I'm just telling you how I see things.That's ALL I'm asking for My opinions have no more weight or authority than yours.
All the very best to you, my friend!And you!