This thread was split from Kings of the Earth (World or Israel).
Hey there Kathryn,
Your two posts are very thick with assumptionsI know you see them as assumptions Richard...but you have to realize that what I'm trying to convey takes a long time to explain in type and shadow. I have to build my "theory" line upon line, precept upon precept.(as I did learning it) I thought of your request to start a thread on this yesterday...and I didn't know where to begin. I thought this was a good way to do it as the biblewheel is non-biased. It has no personal interpretation placed on it. , so I will need to lay them bare before going futher with the interpretation. I will answer them line by line:
This account is giving us a behind the scenes look into who has the ultimate spiritual authority on earth.
Where did that come from? I've read that passage many times, and it never occurred to me to interpret in that way. I don't see anything in the text that would suggest that is speaking of the "ultimate authority on earth."To me it is obvious, and but if it isn't to you...again...have a bit of patience. When I can elaborate on the OT primary type in the book of Joshua , it might become a little clearer.
The fish is a type of the "royal priesthood/kings and priests", who will rule and reign with Him in the 3rd Day. (the 153 pulled up in the net in Jesus' 3rd visit to the disciples after the resurrection).
I've always understood the 153 fish to be a type of believers who were "caught" in the "Gospel net." Now sure, Peter speaks of believers as a "royal priesthood/kings and priests" but I don't see why you chose to use that metaphor in this context. You could just as well have chosen to use the "living stones" metaphor, or the "sheep" metaphor, or any other metaphor. Why choose the "kings and priests" metaphor for this particular context?Because it highlites the comparison with the" kings of the earth". And why focus on the idea of "ruling and reigning?" It feels like you are imposing a preconceived pattern upon the text. Because it denotes authority or dominion...in both the physical creation and the realm of spirit. Jesus begins the account with the kings of the earth, who are of course, authority figures. (as well as "royalty".)
Now it's true that the 153 fish in John 21 can be seen as representing believers, but is there any reason to think that the fish in Matthew 17:27 represents believers? Not ever occurrence of "fish" in the Bible represents believers. Why did you make that assumption in this case? The symbol of the fish can be established in scripture as a type of Christ. "Christ" is plural...it is both Jesus Christ, and the "Sons of God" (153) You'll find it in the data base. I won't get into the progression of it, until we can figure out how to do this
It demonstrates the dominion over the earth, that the 1st Adam lost, and the 2nd Adam , Jesus Christ, had come to restore.
If that's true, then why doesn' every miracle represent the same thing? What is unique about this miracle that "demonstrates the dominion over the earth" as opposed to, say, feeding the 5000? Or casting out demons? Or any other miracle?The miracles you quote do represent the same thing. Of course there were many "miracles" performed by the magicians, so there's obviously more to it than the ability and event itself. Adam's (man) dominion over the earth isn't redeemed until the Cross..and it is not until the "living" work of Christ has been completed or fulfilled in His Corporate son, that we see the full manifestation of it on earth. Everything Jesus does is also revealing something in type, of His "seed" or sons in whom He will do "greater things" . So again, it feels like you imposing a pattern upon the text. yes...but if you can just lay aside this "feeling" for awhile..?
It is in the "mouth" of the fish, because it is the mouth of the Christ that holds the Sword which "smites" the nations of the earth.
This feels like a total non sequitur to me. The sword coming out of the mouth of Christ represents the "word of God." There is no such association with the coin in the mouth of the fish. I was dealing with the mouth itself and why it was used in the type. Of course the coin has to make equal sense...but again, I was trying to keep it as brief as I could. We just began to discuss the concept of "debt" and how it applies to the coin in this account on the "tongues" thread. Again..we are dealing with a type that has many levels of meaning...and somehow have to establish a way we can search this out from the foundation up, in a non-biased way.
It is through the " mouth" that the exchange takes place between the" dragon "and earth in the book of Revelation. (the only one that comes readily to mind right now, the account of the birth of the manchild in the 12th chapter of Revelation)
This seems like another non sequitur. I can't see how the flood coming out of the mouth of the dragon has anything to do with the coin found in the mouth of the fish. Both the symbology and the context seem entirely different. again...this has to be established brick by brick and I was focusing on the "mouth" in typology. Gotta start somewhere.
1. The account is in Matthew, which is on spoke 18 of the Biblewheel...it is the number that expresses opposite concepts. (such as divine/carnal..life/death righteousness/unrighteousness) In fact 18 is "righteousness" Tzaddi.
It is true that the Number 18 is linked in gematria to concepts of Life (Chi) and Sin (Chata) which both sum to 18, and these concepts are essentially "opposites" because Sin/Death is contrary to Life/Righteousness. But this idea of "relating opposites" has nothing to do with the Number 18 at all.I haven't worded this properly. It's like discussing the intricate nature of a lock, with the locksmith, when all you're looking at is a key I'm not going to be able to articulate this to your satisfaction, until we progress a bit farther (if we can)All I am trying to point out now...is the very surface of the correlations on the wheel It is a general characteristic of Gematria itself, not any particular number. For example, the Number 666 is connected with the opposite concepts of extreme holiness and extreme wickedness. It is both the Number of the Beast and the value of "God's secret place.yes..and "666" is also I8 when added, is it not? I am completely ignorant in the field of mathematics Richard. You will get from me, a "right brained" response as I first begin to notice correlations visually. This will drive you to drink at the beginning...but again...I hope we can find some way to cross this barrier. All I can tell you, is that if we can, I believe I can demonstrate that the types/shadows and symbology of the bible has a foundational bone structure, that is not of private interpretation. "
2. the 18th spoke is is the "Tzaddi" which is also the "fish hook" that pulls up the "first fish" to drawn to the surface.
This is correct. And I find it quite intriguing that we have "mouth" and "fish hook" in the last verse of Chapter 17 (Peh/Mouth) immediately preceding the first verse of Chapter 18 (Tzaddi/Fish hook). well, I'm glad you found that intriguing. You can see a very tenuous connection then, to "18"?
3. 153 in gematria is "Sons of God". It is the 17th triagular number...17 being the Pey or mouth. (mouth of fish....mouth of God)
The numbers are correct, but the implication is not so obvious,no...all revelation of the 3rd day, in typology, is not obvious at all. It is hidden in scripture like a baby in a mother's womb. All of typology is expressed within the ultimate context of Love and relationship. The Bridegroom only reveals His intimacies to His "Lover" or the one who seeks to know/consumate with Him. I know that isn't what you want to hear..but either I can "let it all hang out" until I can articulate fully or I can't. and it's application to Matt 17:27 even less so. I have yet to see any reason to think that the fish with the coin in it's mouth is supposed to represent the church, the body of believers.
I hope my skeptical response doesn't dampen your desire to explore this passage. I'm not trying to be critical, but neither can I pretend to see things I don't see.no...neither can I. I wouldn't have you any other way. I just feel frustrated, when I can see something, but can't articulate it. Haven't a clue where to go from here I think it will be very interesting to dig deep into your interpretation of this passage and see if it can be set upon a justifiable foundation. my hope was that you could , for a period of time, lay aside the possibility that it is a wild assumption...and pretend for a moment, that it is true. On that basis...then take it to the biblewheel and search it out. How would you feel about that?
All the very best,